On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 10:09:47 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/5/2015 1:22 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/5/2015 12:28 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/5/2015 9:20 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/5/2015 7:41 AM, Leon wrote:
On 11/5/2015 2:04 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 4:45:48 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
.

[snip]

With today's plastic jaws with larger faces, I am sure double stick
tape would do the trick.

Robert

Maybe even a wooden pad with rare earth magnets embedded in the back
side. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I'll have to see of a magnet will stick to
the Jet clamp surface.

If you can find some of that magnetic rubber tape or the magnetic
business card stock (think refrigerator magnets, sort of)

Back in the day I made up some 2" squares of ¼" ply, glued a 3/4" piece
of that stock to the back and it worked fine. All you really need is
"that extra hand" to hold the wood pad in place until you can tighten
down the clamp. Wasn't ideal but it worked when I needed it.




I wonder if that would be strong enough to go through the plastic on the
clamp and hold the wood pad.

I seriously doubt it. Not enough drawing power. As I said it wasn't
ideal but it worked for me. Think: just enough to hold the square of
plywood in place while tightening the clamp. It was very easy to knock
loose but for my purposes it was entirely adequate.

If I understand where you're going with my tip, I would think that a
rare earth magnet, properly inlet/recessed to the pad and held by a
touch of silicone would probably do the trick, "penetrating" the plastic
and attracting to the metal behind it.

That would be the plan.


Those rare earth magnets are kinda neat. They have a helluva lot of
pulling power for their small size. Seen some innovative gun mounts
made of them after being coated with rubber. A couple strategically
placed have no problem holding a 21oz to 35oz pistol horizontally or
vertically to a metal surface.

My first introduction to those magnets were when I was still in the
automotive business, 20 plus years ago. I was working for an AC/Delco
wholesale distributor. There was a particular part that came in a small
box about 1.5 x1.5 x1.5 inches. You could not pick the small box up off
of the steel bin with out the box opening and coming apart. You had to
slide the box to the edge of the shelf to overcome the pull of the
magnet. The part was a small wiper motor part. IIRC it had 4, 3/8"
long by 2mm diameter magnets evenly spaced around a round piece. The
magnets looked like wooden pencil leads. There could have been a dozen
of those parts in the tiny box.

My first introduction to rare earth magnets was when I was building Soap
Box Derby cars.

No, I didn't hide them in the front end for extra pull out of the
starting ramp. ;-)

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/soap-...andal-1.415481

We used them to hold down the hatch of the Masters cars. With a pair of
round rare earth magnets epoxied to both sides of the hatch up near the
driver's head, the hatch stayed down on the bumpiest of tracks or
even if we turned the car upside down, yet allowed for easy opening by
either the driver or the handler. The hatch is hinged right above the
#35 and extends back almost to the label on the side of the helmet.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Some builders used Velcro straps or metal latches that the driver had to
engage/disengage from inside car. The rare earth magnets did their thing
with no user intervention required. While accidents were rare, I'd seen
enough that I wanted to allow for easy opening of the hatch either from
the inside or the outside just in case.

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:04:44 -0600
dpb wrote:

I just got accustomed to using a full-length caul resting on the
clamp bodies so never worried about the individual pads...it's still
so ingrown a practice I don't even think of pads...guess everybody
grows up different.

i had never seen cauls until recently
might have been lee valley but not sure

they were not cheap but i like the idea it is clever and gives some
more versatility to the clamps i have

did you buy them or make them
what wood species are they made from
i would guess oak or ash or hard maple
maybe kiln dried too

any other tips tricks etc about them you can share would be good

On 11/6/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip



Those rare earth magnets are kinda neat. They have a helluva lot of
pulling power for their small size. Seen some innovative gun mounts
made of them after being coated with rubber. A couple strategically
placed have no problem holding a 21oz to 35oz pistol horizontally or
vertically to a metal surface.

My first introduction to those magnets were when I was still in the
automotive business, 20 plus years ago. I was working for an AC/Delco
wholesale distributor. There was a particular part that came in a small
box about 1.5 x1.5 x1.5 inches. You could not pick the small box up off
of the steel bin with out the box opening and coming apart. You had to
slide the box to the edge of the shelf to overcome the pull of the
magnet. The part was a small wiper motor part. IIRC it had 4, 3/8"
long by 2mm diameter magnets evenly spaced around a round piece. The
magnets looked like wooden pencil leads. There could have been a dozen
of those parts in the tiny box.

My first introduction to rare earth magnets was when I was building Soap
Box Derby cars.

No, I didn't hide them in the front end for extra pull out of the
starting ramp. ;-)

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/soap-...andal-1.415481

We used them to hold down the hatch of the Masters cars. With a pair of
round rare earth magnets epoxied to both sides of the hatch up near the
driver's head, the hatch stayed down on the bumpiest of tracks or
even if we turned the car upside down, yet allowed for easy opening by
either the driver or the handler. The hatch is hinged right above the
#35 and extends back almost to the label on the side of the helmet.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Some builders used Velcro straps or metal latches that the driver had to
engage/disengage from inside car. The rare earth magnets did their thing
with no user intervention required. While accidents were rare, I'd seen
enough that I wanted to allow for easy opening of the hatch either from
the inside or the outside just in case.

Very cool car! some how I was picturing an orange crate with wheels.
LOL Great work!


I used them on the model car display for my son many years ago.
The door on the front of the cabinet sets on the bottom ledge. Other
than that there are no hinges are latches. It is held in place by rare
earth magnets. You slide the door to one side or the other to over come
the pull of the magnets on the small screws below the surface on the
back side of the door stiles.

Electric Comet writes:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:04:44 -0600
dpb wrote:

I just got accustomed to using a full-length caul resting on the
clamp bodies so never worried about the individual pads...it's still
so ingrown a practice I don't even think of pads...guess everybody
grows up different.

i had never seen cauls until recently
might have been lee valley but not sure

they were not cheap but i like the idea it is clever and gives some
more versatility to the clamps i have

Buying a caul seems pretty silly for a woodworker.

You do realize that woodworkers were quite successful without
pipe clamps, fancy K-bodies or any manufactured clamp?

Consider what you can do with a couple of wedges and a caul,
for example.

The caul should be slightly sprung.

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 12:33:23 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/6/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip



Those rare earth magnets are kinda neat. They have a helluva lot of
pulling power for their small size. Seen some innovative gun mounts
made of them after being coated with rubber. A couple strategically
placed have no problem holding a 21oz to 35oz pistol horizontally or
vertically to a metal surface.

My first introduction to those magnets were when I was still in the
automotive business, 20 plus years ago. I was working for an AC/Delco
wholesale distributor. There was a particular part that came in a small
box about 1.5 x1.5 x1.5 inches. You could not pick the small box up off
of the steel bin with out the box opening and coming apart. You had to
slide the box to the edge of the shelf to overcome the pull of the
magnet. The part was a small wiper motor part. IIRC it had 4, 3/8"
long by 2mm diameter magnets evenly spaced around a round piece. The
magnets looked like wooden pencil leads. There could have been a dozen
of those parts in the tiny box.

My first introduction to rare earth magnets was when I was building Soap
Box Derby cars.

No, I didn't hide them in the front end for extra pull out of the
starting ramp. ;-)

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/soap-...andal-1.415481

We used them to hold down the hatch of the Masters cars. With a pair of
round rare earth magnets epoxied to both sides of the hatch up near the
driver's head, the hatch stayed down on the bumpiest of tracks or
even if we turned the car upside down, yet allowed for easy opening by
either the driver or the handler. The hatch is hinged right above the
#35 and extends back almost to the label on the side of the helmet.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Some builders used Velcro straps or metal latches that the driver had to
engage/disengage from inside car. The rare earth magnets did their thing
with no user intervention required. While accidents were rare, I'd seen
enough that I wanted to allow for easy opening of the hatch either from
the inside or the outside just in case.

Very cool car! some how I was picturing an orange crate with wheels.
LOL Great work!



Thanks. My son won the World Championship in Akron with that car when he
was 13. That was back when you bought the kit from Akron but could still
make your own internal parts, modify the shape of the body, etc.

As people like me got more and more sophisticated regarding the mods, it
got to a point where only those teams doing extensive modifications were
winning. That caused the Masters division to get smaller and smaller,
until it was on the brink of extinction.

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and outlawed
homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of the car that
determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge, but not near as
much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering systems, etc.

As an example, compare the shape of today's Masters car vs. my son's.

http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.41...by28cut-17.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

They were both built from the same kit, but the modern car is basically a
fiberglass shell screwed to the floorboard. My son's car is the same
fiberglass shell screwed to the same floorboard but then rounded to
be more aerodynamic and wrapped in 3 layers of fiberglass cloth and
epoxy to stiffen the body. We reduced the size of the car to so close to
the minimum girth that the blue vinyl racing stripe was added just to make
sure we passed the girth measurement in Akron.

The internal parts were almost completely home made. For example, the
kit comes with a rear axle mount that isn't much more than a piece of
angle iron and couple of bolts. Bolt the angle iron to the floorboard,
then bolt the axle to angle iron.

In contrast, this is the rear axle mounting system that we made:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...psf3c61506.jpg

Ah well, those were the days.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and
outlawed homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of
the car that determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge,
but not near as much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering
systems, etc.

i always thought that any racing sport should have an unlimited class
competition

sailing
car racing
etc

maybe just have some very basic criteria like has to have at least 2 wheels
or must have a sail and a hull

i thought drag racing with funny cars and dragsters were unlimited but
maybe i misremember

On 11/6/2015 2:53 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and
outlawed homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of
the car that determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge,
but not near as much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering
systems, etc.

i always thought that any racing sport should have an unlimited class
competition

sailing
car racing
etc

maybe just have some very basic criteria like has to have at least 2 wheels
or must have a sail and a hull

i thought drag racing with funny cars and dragsters were unlimited but
maybe i misremember



I think street racing is the only unregulated racing, other than
breaking the law.

Maybe street racing in a hybrid or "Smart for 2" car would be legal.
;~) I don't think you can be ticked for speeding if you are not
actually speeding

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 3:53:20 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and
outlawed homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of
the car that determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge,
but not near as much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering
systems, etc.

i always thought that any racing sport should have an unlimited class
competition


In essence, the All American Soap Box Derby does have an "unlimited class".

It's known as the Ultimate Speed Program. It was instituted for those
teams that wanted to continue to build homemade cars, but it's not for
the faint of heart. I know one team that spent over $100K testing and
building a car. The team was led by a guy who owns a company that makes
bob sleds for a number of Olympic teams, so he had the facilities, the
engineers and the labor to build a winning car.

Do a Google image search for "soap box ultimate speed" for some
cool images of Ultimate Speed cars.

There's a picture about 4 rows down of a driver lying flat on her back.
She is wearing prism glasses so that she can look through a small window
at the front of the car. Once the hatch is closed, the car is completely
smooth along the top.

We modified a Masters division car for my daughter to drive in the Ultimate
race. The only team we beat was a team that took a Thule car top ski
carrier and added some wheels. (2nd row down on the image search, the last
last I looked) We didn't expect to do very well, but it got us one more
year of building and racing, so it was worth it.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:36:05 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

In essence, the All American Soap Box Derby does have an "unlimited
class".

interesting
maybe unlimited does not always make sense

even with the millions they spend on america's cup boats they still have
to build them with constraints

maybe where they are already spending millions in the top class an
unlimited class would make more sense

hydrofoil sailboats might be interesting to see racing

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 12:33:23 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/6/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip



Those rare earth magnets are kinda neat. They have a helluva lot of
pulling power for their small size. Seen some innovative gun mounts
made of them after being coated with rubber. A couple strategically
placed have no problem holding a 21oz to 35oz pistol horizontally or
vertically to a metal surface.

My first introduction to those magnets were when I was still in the
automotive business, 20 plus years ago. I was working for an AC/Delco
wholesale distributor. There was a particular part that came in a small
box about 1.5 x1.5 x1.5 inches. You could not pick the small box up off
of the steel bin with out the box opening and coming apart. You had to
slide the box to the edge of the shelf to overcome the pull of the
magnet. The part was a small wiper motor part. IIRC it had 4, 3/8"
long by 2mm diameter magnets evenly spaced around a round piece. The
magnets looked like wooden pencil leads. There could have been a dozen
of those parts in the tiny box.

My first introduction to rare earth magnets was when I was building Soap
Box Derby cars.

No, I didn't hide them in the front end for extra pull out of the
starting ramp. ;-)

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/soap-...andal-1.415481

We used them to hold down the hatch of the Masters cars. With a pair of
round rare earth magnets epoxied to both sides of the hatch up near the
driver's head, the hatch stayed down on the bumpiest of tracks or
even if we turned the car upside down, yet allowed for easy opening by
either the driver or the handler. The hatch is hinged right above the
#35 and extends back almost to the label on the side of the helmet.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Some builders used Velcro straps or metal latches that the driver had to
engage/disengage from inside car. The rare earth magnets did their thing
with no user intervention required. While accidents were rare, I'd seen
enough that I wanted to allow for easy opening of the hatch either from
the inside or the outside just in case.

Very cool car! some how I was picturing an orange crate with wheels.
LOL Great work!



Thanks. My son won the World Championship in Akron with that car when he
was 13. That was back when you bought the kit from Akron but could still
make your own internal parts, modify the shape of the body, etc.

As people like me got more and more sophisticated regarding the mods, it
got to a point where only those teams doing extensive modifications were
winning. That caused the Masters division to get smaller and smaller,
until it was on the brink of extinction.

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and outlawed
homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of the car that
determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge, but not near as
much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering systems, etc.

As an example, compare the shape of today's Masters car vs. my son's.

http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.41...by28cut-17.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Good thing you didn't use a lot of clamps. Those saw horses can't
support many clamps. ;-)

They were both built from the same kit, but the modern car is basically a
fiberglass shell screwed to the floorboard. My son's car is the same
fiberglass shell screwed to the same floorboard but then rounded to
be more aerodynamic and wrapped in 3 layers of fiberglass cloth and
epoxy to stiffen the body. We reduced the size of the car to so close to
the minimum girth that the blue vinyl racing stripe was added just to make
sure we passed the girth measurement in Akron.

The internal parts were almost completely home made. For example, the
kit comes with a rear axle mount that isn't much more than a piece of
angle iron and couple of bolts. Bolt the angle iron to the floorboard,
then bolt the axle to angle iron.

In contrast, this is the rear axle mounting system that we made:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...psf3c61506.jpg

Ah well, those were the days.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:53:18 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and
outlawed homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of
the car that determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge,
but not near as much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering
systems, etc.

i always thought that any racing sport should have an unlimited class
competition

sailing

An unlimited sailing class doesn't make a lot of sense. You really
have to have a length class to make it a race.

car racing

Again, there is a difference between "street" cars and open-wheel
cars, dragsters, etc.

etc

maybe just have some very basic criteria like has to have at least 2 wheels
or must have a sail and a hull

....and a big-assed engine?

i thought drag racing with funny cars and dragsters were unlimited but
maybe i misremember

There is an "unlimited" class but I don't believe that means there are
no rules. I don't believe turbine engines are allowed.

On 11/6/2015 7:14 PM, krw wrote:

As an example, compare the shape of today's Masters car vs. my son's.

http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.41...by28cut-17.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Good thing you didn't use a lot of clamps. Those saw horses can't
support many clamps. ;-)

Oh yeah? LOL

Electric Comet wrote in
:

i always thought that any racing sport should have an unlimited class
competition

As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.

maybe just have some very basic criteria like has to have at least 2
wheels or must have a sail and a hull

Pretty much all forms of car racing require exactly 4 wheels,
and they have to be on the 4 corners of the car (this rule
being because someone built a car with 3 wheels on one side,
and 1 on the other).

i thought drag racing with funny cars and dragsters were unlimited but
maybe i misremember

No, drag racing hasn't had an unlimited class since the
50's (or maybe early 60's). The only unlimited class I
can think of would be LSR at Bonneville.

John

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 8:14:40 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 12:29:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 12:33:23 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/6/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip



Those rare earth magnets are kinda neat. They have a helluva lot of
pulling power for their small size. Seen some innovative gun mounts
made of them after being coated with rubber. A couple strategically
placed have no problem holding a 21oz to 35oz pistol horizontally or
vertically to a metal surface.

My first introduction to those magnets were when I was still in the
automotive business, 20 plus years ago. I was working for an AC/Delco
wholesale distributor. There was a particular part that came in a small
box about 1.5 x1.5 x1.5 inches. You could not pick the small box up off
of the steel bin with out the box opening and coming apart. You had to
slide the box to the edge of the shelf to overcome the pull of the
magnet. The part was a small wiper motor part. IIRC it had 4, 3/8"
long by 2mm diameter magnets evenly spaced around a round piece. The
magnets looked like wooden pencil leads. There could have been a dozen
of those parts in the tiny box.

My first introduction to rare earth magnets was when I was building Soap
Box Derby cars.

No, I didn't hide them in the front end for extra pull out of the
starting ramp. ;-)

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/soap-...andal-1.415481

We used them to hold down the hatch of the Masters cars. With a pair of
round rare earth magnets epoxied to both sides of the hatch up near the
driver's head, the hatch stayed down on the bumpiest of tracks or
even if we turned the car upside down, yet allowed for easy opening by
either the driver or the handler. The hatch is hinged right above the
#35 and extends back almost to the label on the side of the helmet.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Some builders used Velcro straps or metal latches that the driver had to
engage/disengage from inside car. The rare earth magnets did their thing
with no user intervention required. While accidents were rare, I'd seen
enough that I wanted to allow for easy opening of the hatch either from
the inside or the outside just in case.

Very cool car! some how I was picturing an orange crate with wheels.
LOL Great work!



Thanks. My son won the World Championship in Akron with that car when he
was 13. That was back when you bought the kit from Akron but could still
make your own internal parts, modify the shape of the body, etc.

As people like me got more and more sophisticated regarding the mods, it
got to a point where only those teams doing extensive modifications were
winning. That caused the Masters division to get smaller and smaller,
until it was on the brink of extinction.

They eventually outlawed all but the most basic modifications and outlawed
homemade parts. It is now only the driver and the tuning of the car that
determines the outcome. Both of those factors are huge, but not near as
much fun as building your own axle mounts, steering systems, etc.

As an example, compare the shape of today's Masters car vs. my son's.

http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.41...by28cut-17.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps65263f4d.jpg

Good thing you didn't use a lot of clamps. Those saw horses can't
support many clamps. ;-)

Maybe you didn't notice the foam adaptors on the saw horses. They serve two purposes.

They keep the bottom of the car from getting scratched and they soften the weight.

Maybe Leon should have tried them. I still have a set I could send him. ;-)


They were both built from the same kit, but the modern car is basically a
fiberglass shell screwed to the floorboard. My son's car is the same
fiberglass shell screwed to the same floorboard but then rounded to
be more aerodynamic and wrapped in 3 layers of fiberglass cloth and
epoxy to stiffen the body. We reduced the size of the car to so close to
the minimum girth that the blue vinyl racing stripe was added just to make
sure we passed the girth measurement in Akron.

The internal parts were almost completely home made. For example, the
kit comes with a rear axle mount that isn't much more than a piece of
angle iron and couple of bolts. Bolt the angle iron to the floorboard,
then bolt the axle to angle iron.

In contrast, this is the rear axle mounting system that we made:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...psf3c61506.jpg

Ah well, those were the days.

"John McCoy" wrote:


As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.
----------------------------------------------------------
Cost doesn't seem to be a problem for L Ellison or Bill Koch when
they won the America's Cup in their respective years.

OTOH, neither one of them were going to lose.

Whatever it took.

Lew

On Saturday, November 7, 2015 at 3:53:55 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"John McCoy" wrote:


As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.
----------------------------------------------------------
Cost doesn't seem to be a problem for L Ellison or Bill Koch when
they won the America's Cup in their respective years.

OTOH, neither one of them were going to lose.

Whatever it took.

Lew

"Cost" was one of the 2 main reasons the Soap Box Derby Masters division
almost became extinct. Having the expertise to build a highly customized car
was the other. The thing is, you really can't have one without the other.

Building a highly customized car was not cheap, nor were all of the weekend
trips to other cities to race. Weekend rallies were used for 2 things: seat time
for your driver and testing of different tune-ups, weight distributions, etc.

It was no coincidence that the families that we saw at rallies weekend
after weekend were the same families that qualified to race in the World
Championship races in Akron, year after year.

The problem was, those of us with highly customized cars (and high spend
rates) were the ones winning all the races. Eventually, the other families
stopped showing up and many families never even bothered getting into the
Masters division. Their kids would race in the 2 lower divisions and then move
on to other activities.

There was a few years when the 6 driver minimum at the weekend rallies couldn't be met.
Instead of not racing, 1 or 2 fake names were placed on the grids so the other kids
could race. Akron made believe that they didn't know what was going on for a while but
eventually had no choice but to eliminate the customizations. It worked. It took a
few years, but the Masters Division, while still the smallest division, is thriving now.

It still takes some expertise to build a good Masters car and it still cost more
to build a good Masters car when compared to the lower divisions, but it's back
to being within reach of almost all families that want to move up.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Building a highly customized car was not cheap, nor were all of the
weekend
trips to other cities to race. Weekend rallies were used for 2
things: seat time
for your driver and testing of different tune-ups, weight
distributions, etc.


That caught me completely by surprise. Having never had a thing at all to
do with Soap Box Derby, I thought the drive was really just dead weight and
simply sat in the car. Apparently not... What kind of value is there in
seat time for a driver?

--

-Mike-

On Sunday, November 8, 2015 at 6:58:59 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Building a highly customized car was not cheap, nor were all of the
weekend
trips to other cities to race. Weekend rallies were used for 2
things: seat time
for your driver and testing of different tune-ups, weight
distributions, etc.


That caught me completely by surprise. Having never had a thing at all to
do with Soap Box Derby, I thought the drive was really just dead weight and
simply sat in the car. Apparently not... What kind of value is there in
seat time for a driver?


For the purpose of this explanation, let's keep these 2 facts in mind:

1 - The overwhelming majority of Soap Box Derby races across the country
(and world) are held on city streets as opposed to dedicated Derby tracks.

2 - The overwhelming majority of races are held on streets where it's a
straight line from the starting ramps to the finish line.

We all know that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.
However, in Derby racing, the shortest distance rarely equates to the fastest time.

Here are 2 pictures of a track we've raced at numerous times. The first
picture shows the track as viewed from between the starting ramps, the
second shows the ramps themselves, which are basically centered in the
middle of the 2 lanes. (I couldn't find a picture looking straight down
the track from behind the ramps, so just imagine that you are the guy
in the white T-shirt sitting between the ramps, about to release the
cars.)

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...psxsfpunyh.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...psjef9otlh.jpg

If we assume that the shortest distance equates to the fastest time, then
we would assume that the drivers would simply come out the ramps and hold
a straight line down the middle of the track. (Even that takes practice, so
there's some "seat time" value right there.)

So the question is: Why are these drivers turning towards the outside of
the track and then hugging the hay bales almost all the way to the finish
line?

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps08jw0agn.jpg

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...pshexx7zxj.jpg

The answer is "the crown". Most streets are crowned (or sometimes slanted)
so the water runs off.

Since most of the speed is gained (and lost) at the top of the hill, drivers
want to take advantage of the crown. Therefore, a good driver (and his team)
will access the amount of crown and decide how hard to turn and when to turn
out of the ramps. It's hard to tell from the close up picture of the cars, but
the driver in the foreground is angled more towards the hay bales than the
driver in the background. That is because both of these experienced drivers
know that the crown is more pronounced in the foreground lane. A sharp angle
takes advantage of a more aggressive crown, while a sharp angle can cost you
speed on a more gentle crown. After the drivers have taken advantage of
whatever crown there is, they want to hold as straight a line as possible
(in most cases) because turning/wiggling further down the track not only
slows the car down, but increases the distance the car must travel to get
to the finish line. Since races can be won or lost by the thousandth of a
second, a single wiggle by a driver can cost them a race.

A key point to mention is that since the crown, as well as many other
things, are different between the 2 lanes, one of them is going to be faster
than the other. Therefore each driver will drive both lanes during a heat.
A heat consists of 2 "lane swap" phases and the total time differential
between the phases determines the winner of the heat. That takes the lane
advantage out of the race but forces the drivers to know how to drive each
lane properly.

Ok, so far all I've talked about is the crown. Remember that these tracks
are usually city streets. So let's toss in man hole covers, cracks in the
asphalt, gaps between buildings that cause wind gusts, puddles after a
passing shower, etc. Imagine a team determining the perfect angle out the
ramps based on the crown, only to find that at the exact point you want
your driver to straighten out the car, there's manhole cover sunk an inch
below the pavement. Not only is hitting that manhole cover going to ruin the
alignment of the car, it's going to take away all of the speed gained by the
perfect use of the crown. Do we straddle the man hole cover? (Risky!) Do we
drive inside of it or outside of it? How does that decision impact what is
going on further down the tack?

I could go for hours on this, but let's just say that winning a Derby race
takes a combination of a properly set up car (weight distribution based on
slope of a given track, axle torque based on smoothness of the road surface,
etc.) and the driver's ability to drive the proper line for a specific lane.
Some say it's 20% car/80% driver. It's hard to put an exact number on it,
but I can say with 100% certainty that even a perfectly tuned car isn't going
to win too many races with a driver that wiggles and wobbles his way down the
track, hitting every bump and scrubbing speed at every opportunity.

To directly answer your question, the value of seat time is that a driver
gets to know his car and his driving habits. When we show up at an
unfamiliar track, walk it as a team and determine the best line based
all the factors mentioned above, the driver has a better chance of executing
the plan successfully.

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:06:33 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.

you are thinking inside the box

No, drag racing hasn't had an unlimited class since the
50's (or maybe early 60's). The only unlimited class I
can think of would be LSR at Bonneville.

interesting and dangerous but not unlimited it seems but close
i would remove the human from the vehicle and make it autonomous

Electric Comet wrote in news:n1o07v$ore$1
@dont-email.me:

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:06:33 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.

you are thinking inside the box

Well, 40-odd years of experience says there isn't an outside
to that box. The last unlimited automobile race series was
the Can-Am in the late 60s, early 70s. Which ended because
it was simply too fast and too expensive.

No, drag racing hasn't had an unlimited class since the
50's (or maybe early 60's). The only unlimited class I
can think of would be LSR at Bonneville.

interesting and dangerous but not unlimited it seems but close
i would remove the human from the vehicle and make it autonomous

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.
If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

John

On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands

If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

lsr is a huge spectator sport

On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Electric Comet wrote in news:n1o07v$ore$1
:

On Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:06:33 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

As desirable as that is, eventually you run into the twin
problems of it being too expensive and too fast for safety
on any available course.

you are thinking inside the box

Well, 40-odd years of experience says there isn't an outside
to that box. The last unlimited automobile race series was
the Can-Am in the late 60s, early 70s. Which ended because
it was simply too fast and too expensive.

No, drag racing hasn't had an unlimited class since the
50's (or maybe early 60's). The only unlimited class I
can think of would be LSR at Bonneville.

interesting and dangerous but not unlimited it seems but close
i would remove the human from the vehicle and make it autonomous

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.
If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

Robot wars are pretty neat.

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.






If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

lsr is a huge spectator sport

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.

Does this make chess any more of a sport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...selice_z18.JPG




If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

lsr is a huge spectator sport

On 11/9/2015 12:25 PM, krw wrote:
On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.

Does this make chess any more of a sport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...selice_z18.JPG

Call it what you like! I like the second picture. LOL

On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 3:11:47 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/9/2015 12:25 PM, krw wrote:
On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.

Does this make chess any more of a sport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...selice_z18.JPG

Call it what you like! I like the second picture. LOL

Have you heard of Chess Boxing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing

This doesn't make Chess a sport but it's one reason that pawns don't like
to be promoted:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b0973c7e15.jpg

On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:01:45 -0500
krw wrote:

Robot wars are pretty neat.

which ones
the ones i have seen are just RC bots

they are still fun to watch but not fully autonomous

even autonomous cars are not fully autonomous there is an operator

there is also RC robot wrestling which is fun
the bots are 2 feet tall or so and dressed like pro wrestlers

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

That has already been done, it is called a video game.

not seen a video game where the car is real
interesting idea though
it will come to be
everything is going in that direction

On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.
If there's no human in it, it's no longer a sporting
competition, and spectator interest will rapidly approach
zero.

the latest big craze with big money at stake is people watching other
people play video games

the people playing are playing for a lot of money and the people
watching are nothing more than spectators

i can completely see driver-less car racing in the near future
i used to spend hours racing small electric rc cars
why not do it with life-size cars

guys with lots of money would gladly part with some to race
head-to-head in a RC driver-less car

no injuries and no loss of life
i think they would have no problem at all getting spectators to
come and watch that

On 11/9/2015 2:32 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, November 9, 2015 at 3:11:47 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 11/9/2015 12:25 PM, krw wrote:
On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.

Does this make chess any more of a sport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...selice_z18.JPG

Call it what you like! I like the second picture. LOL

Have you heard of Chess Boxing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing

This doesn't make Chess a sport but it's one reason that pawns don't like
to be promoted:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b0973c7e15.jpg

;~)

Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:01:45 -0500
krw wrote:

Robot wars are pretty neat.

which ones
the ones i have seen are just RC bots

they are still fun to watch but not fully autonomous

even autonomous cars are not fully autonomous there is an operator

there is also RC robot wrestling which is fun
the bots are 2 feet tall or so and dressed like pro wrestlers

Then there is also the sports that pit humans against humans and measure
that human to human capability. I guess some like robots and some - well,
not so much.

--

-Mike-

Electric Comet wrote:


i can completely see driver-less car racing in the near future
i used to spend hours racing small electric rc cars
why not do it with life-size cars


Ummmm... because people do not really like to watch that kind of thing. How
many spectators did you ever have in your rc car races? Compare that to the
number of real spectators at a real car race. Do you really not think at
all?

guys with lots of money would gladly part with some to race
head-to-head in a RC driver-less car

You just keep convincing yourself of that - regardless of what the real
world shows.


no injuries and no loss of life
i think they would have no problem at all getting spectators to
come and watch that

You just go ahead and start the series that you are so confident will
attract viewers. Let us know how that works out.

--

-Mike-

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.



Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 11/9/2015 7:10 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.



Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?



*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

Puckdropper



thought it was left. ;~) Like watching tennis.

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:11:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/9/2015 12:25 PM, krw wrote:
On Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:24:17 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 11/8/2015 3:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:11:14 -0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Well, that would be another way to bring racing to an end.

still requires human ingenuity

you are saying it is only sport if someone can die at it

why not remove the danger element and place the control into remote
hands


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.

Does this make chess any more of a sport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...selice_z18.JPG

Call it what you like! I like the second picture. LOL

Actually, I chose that one first. I couldn't see what it was before
expanding it to full screen. I didn't think it would be a good choice
for a family newsgroup. ;-)

On 10 Nov 2015 01:10:07 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.



Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

No, but turning left apparently does. ;-)

*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

Puckdropper

On 11/9/2015 8:16 PM, krw wrote:
On 10 Nov 2015 01:10:07 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.



Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

No, but turning left apparently does. ;-)

Don't forget that while two wrongs don't make a right, three lefts do!

In article . com,
Puckdropper says...

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


That has already been done, it is called a video game.

Removing the human from the car would and calling it a sport would be
like calling chess a sport.



Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

That criticism went out the door the day A.J. Foyt won LeMans.

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in news:564143ef$0$52103
:

Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

At the late, lamented Hialeah speedway they would occasionally
stop the entry-level race half way thru, turn everyone around,
and finish the race going clockwise. The result was usually
hilarious, because the guys who had been fastest invariably
became slowest...

John

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:34:05 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in news:564143ef$0$52103
:

Does giving the human the ability to turn right make auto racing a sport?

*Grinning, ducking, and running.*

At the late, lamented Hialeah speedway they would occasionally
stop the entry-level race half way thru, turn everyone around,
and finish the race going clockwise. The result was usually
hilarious, because the guys who had been fastest invariably
became slowest...

John

Why would that be? Driving a race car isn't just about turning. If
the fastest drivers were more highly skilled in all aspects of racing,
why would the less talented drivers "invariably" outpace (pun intended)
them at those skills?