On 9/10/2015 1:13 PM, wrote:



--

-Mike-

The 1 year of drying for 1 inch of thickness concept applies to
moisture coming out of the face grain of wood. Not the end grain.
So it is possible a 2 inch thick piece of wood might take 2 years of
drying to get down to 8% moisture content if the end grain was sealed
with paint or tar or wax. All of the drying occurs through the
non-porous face grain. Very slowly. And hopefully this slow loss of
moisture will prevent cracks in the wood.

Your story of firewood drying quickly is about the wood drying
through the end grain. Since you do not coat the firewood end grain
when it is drying. None of the moisture loss occurs through the
sides of the logs waiting to be burned. All the moisture evaporates
through the end grain. And of course your firewood is not as dry as
furniture wood. It might be 15-20-25% moisture content. More than
dry enough to burn nicely. While furniture wood is around 8%
moisture content. And I suspect the last few percentage of drying
takes longer than the first few percentage. Drying of wood is not
linear. It takes much, much longer to go from 15% to 10% than it
does to go from 35% to 30%.


And just to add to moisture content of firewood vs. wood for building, I
have tons of wood scraps and a few years back I had so much that I
simply use that instead of firewood to burn in my fire place one
evening. I always used scraps to get the fire started but never only
burned scrap hardwoods in place of firewood.
I though I was going to burn the house down. It burned HOT and FAST.
I was terribly thankful that I had ceramic tile floors.

On 09/10/2015 2:02 PM, Leon wrote:
...

And just to add to moisture content of firewood vs. wood for building, I
have tons of wood scraps and a few years back I had so much that I
simply use that instead of firewood to burn in my fire place one
evening. I always used scraps to get the fire started but never only
burned scrap hardwoods in place of firewood.
I though I was going to burn the house down. It burned HOT and FAST.
I was terribly thankful that I had ceramic tile floors.

Indeed, although another factor besides the moisture is that scraps
typically have much more surface area per unit volume than the log;
hence there's a far larger fire/flame front.

--

The Wood stove has like mine has outside air flow from a 6" pipe.
The output was an 8" single wall that was 24' tall to the A-Frame
2x tung-n-gruve ceiling then 6" closed foam and sheeting and shingles.

The fire would heat the whole house because the input vent to the
central fan/heater was at the roof area above the stove. Heat the
great room and turn on the fan for a while - dump the hot on the top.
Mix the room a bit and the whole house. Then off with the fan.

The young couple that bought it and moved in, installed air
conditioning, and a new boiler heater. dumped the good stove. I'd
love to have it in the shop!

Martin

On 9/10/2015 8:02 AM, Leon wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote:
Leon wrote:


Actually I have burned relatively green wood in my fire place that
leaks bubbling water from the ends and then drips to the bottom of the
fireplace. It burns slower but does burn.

Anyone who burns a wood stove will tell you that this is not true Leon. It
will smolder, but it will not burn. I've been burning wood for too many
years for anyone to tell me they can actually burn green wood. I guess it
depends on your definition of the word "burns".

Well I only burned our fireplace in our other home for 30 years. It burns
and is gone by morning. FWIW I burned in a fireplace and not a stove.
Perhaps the limited air flow of a stove hampers the burn.





You would not want to build fine furniture with wood that is cut to be
firewood. It would change shape quickly.
I repaired a coffee table several years ago that was make from walnut
that was not properly dried. It bowed and the joint broke open.

I agree with what you say and I tried to state that in my original thoughts,
but I still wonder about the whole notion of 1 year of drying time per inch
of wood.

On 9/8/2015 4:41 PM, Meanie wrote:

I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?

When cutting wood blanks for turning, you don't want the pith at all, it
causes lots of problems. This generally makes branches not good unless
they are large enough to square up w/o the pith.

As you discovered, green wood is great to turn, and large bowls are
often turned green because of the large amount of wood removed, it turns
easy green and dries faster than a giant unturned log, but you have to
turn again after it dries, and you fill any checks and get it back into
a round shape(if that's what you want).

Small turnings like tool handles are simple to turn dry, because you are
removing only a small amount of wood, so turners seldom turn tool
handles from green. The main problem is end grain, which wicks moisture
faster than face grain, so it will cause checks in the end grain, so
your handle might check as well as warp. I would seal everything up
with wax or poly and sit back and observe. You will quickly gain some
first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't. A little warping
and checking in a tool handle is probably not the end of the world,
might even be cool.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/10/2015 9:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
wood in February.

A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees
in the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I guess to
protect them from freezing, and around February begin pumping the
moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for maple syrup:-)

This greatly effects both drying time for furniture as well as burning.
I once cut a maple in late October, and 3 months later made slats for
a rocking chair seat and the wood was quite dry. It even surprised me.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/10/2015 12:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

I keep about a day's worth of wood in a little craddle beside the stove for
the same reason. I tarp over the wood that is stacked outside, and I have 3
months worth stacked on the front porch at the beginning of each heating
season (not enclosed, but does have a roof over it). For the most part, it
really does not get all that wet once it's stacked. It's surprising though,
how little water is actually absorbed into wood from rain or snow, once it's
seasoned. I've gone through heating seasons without tarping over my outside
wood stacks and to be honest - there's not a lot of difference between the
tarped over wood and the stuff that was not. Mostly just the mess that you
bring into the house if the wood gets a snow build up on it. Not so much in
terms of how it burns.

Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green or
dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
(after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).

The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
much.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:


A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees in
the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I
guess to protect them from freezing, and around February begin
pumping the moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for
maple syrup:-)

Well that is certainly true but with Ash in particular, you can cut it down
any time of the year and immediately burn it and get good heat. It's
somewhat unique among the types of trees that grow around here, in that
respect. (I'm in Central NY by the way).


--

-Mike-

Jack wrote:


Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green
or dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
(after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).

The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
much.

Absolutely correct.

--

-Mike-

Jack wrote:
On 9/10/2015 9:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, but to be fair - and I should
have included this exception in my earlier comments... it does depend a lot
on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry. Unseasoned Maple,
Beech, Cherry will sizzle as the water is boiled out of the wood, and will
not generate any amount of heat as the water cools the fire. You can hear
it and you can see the water boiling out of the wood. Around here, we
generally leave the Ash standing in case we find ourselves in need of more
wood in February.

A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees
in the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I guess to
protect them from freezing, and around February begin pumping the
moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for maple syrup:-)

This greatly effects both drying time for furniture as well as burning.
I once cut a maple in late October, and 3 months later made slats for
a rocking chair seat and the wood was quite dry. It even surprised me.

Good point. I like wood for turning that was felled in December or
January. Just started turning some wood that was felled in June.
Lots of it became moldy before it finished drying. Also, having more
water in it, it tends to warp and crack more while drying.

--
GW Ross

I plan on living forever. So far, so good.

On 9/10/2015 2:13 PM, wrote:

The 1 year of drying for 1 inch of thickness concept applies to moisture coming out of the face
grain of wood. Not the end grain. So it is possible a 2 inch thick piece of wood might take
2 years of drying to get down to 8% moisture content if the end grain was sealed with paint or tar
or wax. All of the drying occurs through the non-porous face grain. Very slowly. And hopefully
this slow loss of moisture will prevent cracks in the wood.

Exactly right.

I used to seal end grain of "firewood" destined for my lathe with
paraffin wax melted into the end grain with an old iron. I was out of
wax, and lost my iron and came up with a neat idea, Masking tape! I
had squared up some maple firewood for future use, and didn't seal the
ends, and it almost immediately began checking.

Next time I stuck wide, blue painters masking tape and stuck it on the
ends of the green blanks. The blanks either didn't check, or had very
minor checks after I guess 6-8 months. So far so good. It's a small
sample, but it's working great.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/11/2015 11:07 AM, G. Ross wrote:

Good point. I like wood for turning that was felled in December or
January. Just started turning some wood that was felled in June. Lots
of it became moldy before it finished drying. Also, having more water
in it, it tends to warp and crack more while drying.

In case you didn't read my previous post, I have been testing out
applying masking tape to the ends of my turning blanks that I cut from
firewood.

For the past 40 years, if I see a nice piece of firewood, I pull it and
cut it up in my shop for turning, making small boxes or cutting boards.
I make it as large as possible, smoothing the faces with the jointer
and planer, and square up the ends, cutting off any checking.

I used to melt wax into the ends with an old iron. Now, I apply the
masking tape to the ends, and toss them into my turning bin. This is
super easy and seems to be working great. The firewood was cut and
split almost a year ago though, but it's not close to dry (for
furniture), and without treating the ends with wax or tape, checked
within few weeks, so this is definitely working.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/11/2015 10:02 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:


Seasoned or not, wood takes a long, long, long time to get wet, green
or dry. You can throw a log into a lake, leave there for month, maybe
years, and the water will only penetrate a small amount, and if it was
dry when you put it in, it will burn just as it would have if kept dry
(after the small amount of surface moisture is steamed off).

The main reason for keeping firewood dry is to keep fungus and insects
out of the wood. Both of these guys love damp wood. Dry wood not so
much.

Absolutely correct.


And there is that reason of not getting filthy dirty when carrying with
loaded arms, wet wood.

On 9/11/2015 10:00 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:


A major factor is when you cut the tree. A tree cut in march has tons
more moisture than a tree cut in December, at least in the north. Trees in
the north drain there moisture into the roots for winter, I
guess to protect them from freezing, and around February begin
pumping the moisture back up, I guess so my brother can tap them for
maple syrup:-)

Well that is certainly true but with Ash in particular, you can cut it down
any time of the year and immediately burn it and get good heat. It's
somewhat unique among the types of trees that grow around here, in that
respect. (I'm in Central NY by the way).


Same goes with mesquite, we used to always go straight from the tree to
the pit when cooking many years ago.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 6:17:48 AM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:

Like you, I've been burning for over 30 years, ... it does depend a lot
on the wood in question. Of the common woods found around here, the most
common exception is Ash. You can literally cut an Ash tree down and burn it
the same day, and get good heat out of that hunk of wood. For all I know,
there may be other types of trees that are not commom to our area, which
behave like Ash. Not so with Maple or Beech, or Cherry.

There's some old poesy on the subject that seems apropos he

Birch and Fir logs burn too fast۬
Blaze up bright and do not last۬
It is by the Cornish said۬
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread۬
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould۬
Even the very flames are cold
۬But ash green or ash brown
۬Is fit for a Queen with a golden crown

On 9/11/2015 10:23 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/8/2015 4:41 PM, Meanie wrote:

I trimmed my silver maple tree over the weekend. In doing so, I realized
the size of some of the branches would be great for my handles. I shaped
one and pleasantly surprised how well it "turned" out (pun intended).
The question I have is about the freshness of the wood. It was less than
24 hours after I trimmed the tree, I cut a piece for the handle.
Therefore, that puppy was fresh and easy to turn. I've heard about
letting wood sit to dry out, then finish. This is the part I haven't any
knowledge on. What length of time is required to dry out? Is the main
reason to dry for finishes or easier to turn? Though I can't imagine it
being for easier turning. That bark and shavings came off like butter.
Overall, how do I handle turning fresh stock?

When cutting wood blanks for turning, you don't want the pith at all, it
causes lots of problems. This generally makes branches not good unless
they are large enough to square up w/o the pith.

As you discovered, green wood is great to turn, and large bowls are
often turned green because of the large amount of wood removed, it turns
easy green and dries faster than a giant unturned log, but you have to
turn again after it dries, and you fill any checks and get it back into
a round shape(if that's what you want).

Small turnings like tool handles are simple to turn dry, because you are
removing only a small amount of wood, so turners seldom turn tool
handles from green. The main problem is end grain, which wicks moisture
faster than face grain, so it will cause checks in the end grain, so
your handle might check as well as warp. I would seal everything up
with wax or poly and sit back and observe. You will quickly gain some
first hand knowledge of what works and what doesn't. A little warping
and checking in a tool handle is probably not the end of the world,
might even be cool.


The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.

It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

On 9/11/2015 6:52 PM, Meanie wrote:

The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.

It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

Silver Maple is perfect for lathe, chisel and file tool handles. Walnut
is better saved for other things, like cutting boards, small boxes, trim
inlays and that sort of stuff. Not that it wouldn't make good handles,
just it's a little special for a utilitarian handle. I made my daughter
a nice wedding goblet with the captured rings out of a "firewood" black
walnut log. I like mixing maple, cherry and walnut in cutting boards.
Gives them a nice traditional look.

When taping the ends of your blanks, remember it takes about a year per
inch to dry wood, maybe less if cut in the fall, early winter. I have a
box full of wood blanks of all sizes I keep. Some pieces are 40 years
old. I would guess most anyone with a lathe has the same box:-). If
you ever go to a woodworkers store like Rockler and price little turning
blocks, you will instantly know why a nice looking hunk of firewood is
worth saving.

Turning bowls, lamps, is most fun with green wood, the greener the
better. Lot's of techniques posted on here for drying. I used to melt
paraffin wax all over the rough turning and that worked. I'd try the
paper bag thing I think. If you get checks, even big ones, you can mix
epoxy and saw dust, or a variety of things and sometimes get result
better than if they weren't there.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Saturday, September 12, 2015 at 8:30:33 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 9/11/2015 6:52 PM, Meanie wrote:

The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle and
reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead on. I
just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly warped
and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in the
middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also slightly
warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and waiting.
I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.

It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt for
harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have a few
good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I saved for
over a year now, when it was removed from the property where I work. I
sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually cut them
into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

Silver Maple is perfect for lathe, chisel and file tool handles. Walnut
is better saved for other things, like cutting boards, small boxes, trim
inlays and that sort of stuff. Not that it wouldn't make good handles,
just it's a little special for a utilitarian handle. I made my daughter
a nice wedding goblet with the captured rings out of a "firewood" black
walnut log. I like mixing maple, cherry and walnut in cutting boards.
Gives them a nice traditional look.

When taping the ends of your blanks, remember it takes about a year per
inch to dry wood, maybe less if cut in the fall, early winter. I have a
box full of wood blanks of all sizes I keep. Some pieces are 40 years
old. I would guess most anyone with a lathe has the same box:-). If
you ever go to a woodworkers store like Rockler and price little turning
blocks, you will instantly know why a nice looking hunk of firewood is
worth saving.

Turning bowls, lamps, is most fun with green wood, the greener the
better. Lot's of techniques posted on here for drying. I used to melt
paraffin wax all over the rough turning and that worked. I'd try the
paper bag thing I think. If you get checks, even big ones, you can mix
epoxy and saw dust, or a variety of things and sometimes get result
better than if they weren't there.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

You can also build one of these bad boys. Your drying time will be cut down from months to weeks. That's my plan for the fall and I'm sticking to it.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects.../wood_kiln.htm

On 2015-09-11 22:52:02 +0000, Meanie said:



The main focus is using these maple branches to practice even if they
aren't the correct wood for handles. After turning that first handle
and reading all the replies including yours (obviously), you are dead
on. I just left that handle sitting next to the lathe and it's slightly
warped and very fine checks on each end. I have another branch I am in
the middle of turning but left it since last weekend and it is also
slightly warped. The third branch is cut to size but still barked and
waiting. I'm trying the masking tape trick to see how that goes.

It's interesting to learn how this works. I just wish I had different
types of trees to try and experiment with as well. I'll have to hunt
for harder trees which may have fallen somewhere. Though, I still have
a few good size logs of Black Walnut (4" to 14" dia sizes) which I
saved for over a year now, when it was removed from the property where
I work. I sealed the ends and they still look good. I will eventually
cut them into the handles after practicing with the Silver Maple.

turning branches can be troublesome. Not just from the pith, but from
the wood tension.

The wood on the "top" of a branch is under tension, while the wood on
the "bottom" of the branch is under compression. This results in extra
stress on the wood, when you turn the wood this release of tension can
result in the wood moving in odd ways

On 9/12/2015 9:34 AM, Michael wrote:

You can also build one of these bad boys. Your drying time will be cut down from months to weeks. That's my plan for the fall and I'm sticking to it.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects.../wood_kiln.htm

Yes, looked like a nice design. I looked at the pdf he

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/420/420-030/420-030_pdf.pdf

Looks like it would work well and be a simple build.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/12/2015 10:25 AM, Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

turning branches can be troublesome. Not just from the pith, but from
the wood tension.

The wood on the "top" of a branch is under tension, while the wood on
the "bottom" of the branch is under compression. This results in extra
stress on the wood, when you turn the wood this release of tension can
result in the wood moving in odd ways

Excellent point.

I generally stayed away from branches because they're always smaller
than the trunk, and knew the pith was not good, so not a lot left after
splitting out the pith and sap wood. Never really thought about this end
of it, good to know, thanks.

As far as cutting wood in the fall when the tree has less moisture, it
appears I was probably wrong about this. My personal experience is
different, but there could be other things going on. Anyway, I stumbled
over this that if you read the whole thing, puts egg on my face.

It's a good read on the subject:

http://tinyurl.com/ov4gnql
or
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...he_Season.html





--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com