Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.

At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
introduced.

Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
such as sausage.

Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
packing house, which was on sale.

Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
check,
which I accepted.

What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
ham.

I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.

When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.

Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
serious shipping involved.

Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
interstates.

Lew

On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.

At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
introduced.

Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
such as sausage.

Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
packing house, which was on sale.

Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
check,
which I accepted.

What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
ham.

I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.

When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.

Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
serious shipping involved.

Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
interstates.

Lew


All it takes is one rail car full and it goes into the local store house
that serves the region. Let trucks do the short haul.

Martin

On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
....

I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.
....
Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
serious shipping involved.

....

Pales in comparison to shipping Australian beef in...or US beef/pork to
Japan/China...

National Beef here ships 90% of "specialty cuts" to Japan from SW KS.

--

On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.

At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
introduced.

Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
such as sausage.

Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
packing house, which was on sale.

Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
check,
which I accepted.

What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
ham.

I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.

When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.

Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
serious shipping involved.

Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
interstates.

Lew



What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
....

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...

--

On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...

--


Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.

On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
....

Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.

Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
eggs as just a starting point...

--

On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
...

Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.

Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
eggs as just a starting point...

When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...

wrote in
:


When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...

My perception of California and the fault line has been ruined by the
Superman movie. I just can't think of the two together without thinking
about all the land in New Mexico and Arizona I should be buying. ;-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Leon" wrote:

What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
found on the shelves of the big box stores.

What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
east out across the California desert.

I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.

They are visible from several miles and almost give the
appearance of being a model train layout.

After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
headed east to the markets.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
found on the shelves of the big box stores.

What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
east out across the California desert.

I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.

They are visible from several miles and almost give the
appearance of being a model train layout.

After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
headed east to the markets.

Lew

I bet that is a site to see.. I have seen long line trains in the middle
of nowhere in west Texas and probably 100 car plus trains making round
trip journeys hauling coal from Wyoming to a coal fired electric plant just
SW of Houston.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:549b2a33$0$44734
:

What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
east out across the California desert.

I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.

9,000 to 10,000 feet would be typical for a train on the
western railroads. If it's bulk, like coal, 10,000 tons;
if it's cans (intermodal containers) maybe 6,000 tons or
less.

And yes, when you see one of those double-stack container
trains in open country like the desert, it looks like the
Great Wall of China moving across the landscape.

John

On 12/24/2014 12:45 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
...

Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.

Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
eggs as just a starting point...

When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...

Never lived there have you.

The Pacific plate contains mountains in northern and southern Ca. And
that plate is slipping North. SO when Mexico is west of Oregon, Where
the induction crease is, and what amount of Ca is under the volcanoes
that run along the pacific northwest we can talk about CA slipping.
That is in time for the Sun to expand beyond our orbit anyway.

Martin - lived on the Pacific Plate, worked on the North American Plate
for 17 years and three or so in So Ca working and living on the Pacific
Plate.

There is a neat mountain (rocky) that was split in two. One part is
400 miles north of the other. Both are parks and have real time drums
inking lines waiting for any movement.
I was there when Loma went up and the country called it San Fran earth
quake. Loma was 70 miles south and 4 miles from our old house (lived
through it)...

Martin

On 12/25/2014 8:09 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:549b2a33$0$44734
:

What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
east out across the California desert.

I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.

9,000 to 10,000 feet would be typical for a train on the
western railroads. If it's bulk, like coal, 10,000 tons;
if it's cans (intermodal containers) maybe 6,000 tons or
less.

And yes, when you see one of those double-stack container
trains in open country like the desert, it looks like the
Great Wall of China moving across the landscape.

John

This town is on the UP going from Houston to Dallas for east/west
and on north as needed. I don't live very close, but want to say
we have 8 every 24 hours. Many petrochemical and containers.

Martin

"G. Ross" wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

John

On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there.
It doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

--

On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

--

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.

I heard several years ago that their traffic would pick up from 80 to
100 trains a week - or was that a day? - through Casa Grande, AZ. It
does seem like one rolls through every 15 minutes or so.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

....

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.
....

That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... From
Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
much dual track line along there....

--

On 12/26/2014 02:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

...

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.
...

That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... From
Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
much dual track line along there....

--

I grew up in Western Washington State. I could never figure out why the
network news guys referred to Minnesota, Illinois, etc as being in the
"west". And then there's Northwestern University. Strange ...


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

Doug Winterburn wrote in
eb.com:

On 12/26/2014 02:27 PM, dpb wrote:

That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... From
Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
much dual track line along there....

I grew up in Western Washington State. I could never figure out why
the network news guys referred to Minnesota, Illinois, etc as being
in the "west". And then there's Northwestern University. Strange ...

Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
University has "western reserve" in their name...

John

"John McCoy" wrote:

Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
University has "western reserve" in their name...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pretty straight forward. NorthEast Ohio is in the lands of the
Western Reserve which was a set aside if lands in the
Connecticut colony weren't sufficient to cover land grants
granted there.

To this day, "The Lands of the Western Reserve" is still a popular
tag line for many businesses in NE Ohio.



Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

"John McCoy" wrote:

Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
University has "western reserve" in their name...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pretty straight forward. NorthEast Ohio is in the lands of the
Western Reserve which was a set aside if lands in the
Connecticut colony weren't sufficient to cover land grants
granted there.

To this day, "The Lands of the Western Reserve" is still a popular
tag line for many businesses in NE Ohio.

Lew
----------------------------------------------
Forgot to mention that prior to the merger, Case and Western Reserve
were independent universities that shared many common facilities in
the area known as University Circle.

Also included in the physical area was the FP Bolton School of
Nursing..

Lew

On 12/26/2014 12:40 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

--
Trains run east west from Dallas. The Main heavy line runs from San
Antonio and stays south and moves north of Big Bend on the line to the
Rio Grande and then north into El Paso. Was 3 oil/gas refineries there
and Army and Air Force bases. Then onward to LA or to Pheonix...

It runs north from LA though to (I want to say) Washington.

Martin

On 12/26/2014 3:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

...

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.
...

That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... From
Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
much dual track line along there....

--

The West starts in Ft. Worth and moves westward up through the Pan
Handle and down through the Big Bend - ending at the Rio Grande (or once
did ) in El Paso. Now the Rio is in Mexico and we end where
the President (Kennedy) decided where the river was 150 years before...
The buildings and businesses lost their places in life and were
forced to move out. I don't know what kind of deal they got, but their
placement was poor.

Martin

wrote in message ...

On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...

FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.

Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
...

Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.

Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
eggs as just a starting point...

When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...

It's not too late to get some beachfront property in Yuma.

Dave in SoTex

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
eb.com...

On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
"G. wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
:

The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.

Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.

And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...

--

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.


UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for it
between New Orleans and L.A.
It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something that has
been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S. I worked a
summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east end of their
Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood Drive]. Ugly, smelly
stuff. Lots of wood though!

Dave in soTex

On 12/27/2014 8:42 AM, Dave from SoTex wrote:
....

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.


UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
it between New Orleans and L.A.
It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, ...

....

The UP line here is the old Rock Island mainline...they've been
upgrading it to continuous rail as well that runs Chicago-El Paso. I
can well imagine in the southern areas from New Orleans to Houston to
(say) San Antonio the concrete ties would pay where it's wetter; would
think W TX and across to LA "not so much". They're using traditional
wood ties up here on all I've seen, anyway...

But there's very little dual line...

I _still_ don't think of El Paso to LA as lines _thru_ "West Texas"...

PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
to/from coal country that I'm aware of...

--

"Dave from SoTex" wrote in
:

UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the
Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
it between New Orleans and L.A.

The SP was a single track railroad. All the double track
between LA and El Paso is recent, stuff UP has put in since
the intermodal business between LA and Chicago took off.

Double track ends at El Paso because the UP splits three ways
there - the Rock Island line thru Amarillo to Chicago, the
Missouri Pacific line to Dallas, and the SP line to Houston
and New Orleans.

It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something
that has been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S.
I worked a summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east
end of their Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood
Drive]. Ugly, smelly stuff. Lots of wood though!

Axle loads in Europe are far far less than in the US (one
axle of a US freight car carries more weight than an entire
car in Europe). It took a while to develop a technology to
make concrete ties that would withstand those loads. That
said, concrete ties have been the norm for mainline track
in the US for the last 20 years or so. Wood is still preferred
for secondary lines.

John

On 12/27/2014 9:38 AM, John McCoy wrote:
....

Double track ends at El Paso because the UP splits three ways
there - the Rock Island line thru Amarillo to Chicago, the
Missouri Pacific line to Dallas, and the SP line to Houston
and New Orleans.
....

As noted earlier, we're on the old Rock Island line--in fact, town
exists where it does as this was the terminus for a number of years
before opening Indian Territory (Oklahoma) to let them continue building
across it.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

On 12/27/2014 8:42 AM, Dave from SoTex wrote:
....

UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.


UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
it between New Orleans and L.A.
It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, ...

....

The UP line here is the old Rock Island mainline...they've been
upgrading it to continuous rail as well that runs Chicago-El Paso. I
can well imagine in the southern areas from New Orleans to Houston to
(say) San Antonio the concrete ties would pay where it's wetter; would
think W TX and across to LA "not so much". They're using traditional
wood ties up here on all I've seen, anyway...

Not that I would necessarily know but I am unaware of any concrete ties
in use in the Gulf coast region of Texas. Every time I see track
restoration in progress there are bundles of creosoted wood ties spread up
and down the track.

But there's very little dual line...

I _still_ don't think of El Paso to LA as lines _thru_ "West Texas"...

PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
to/from coal country that I'm aware of...

I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver & Rio
Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is where the
Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
the Anshutz family was the DRGW and in the 1980s [I believe] Phillip, as
head of the company, borrowed $1.07 billion to purchase the Southern
Pacific. That eventually lead to his merging it with the UP in the mid-90s.
As I recall, Anshutz got a seat on the board of directors.

Dave in SoTex

On 12/27/2014 12:30 PM, Dave in Texas wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
....

....

PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
to/from coal country that I'm aware of...

I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver & Rio
Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is where
the Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
....

I don't know, either, but I doubt it was D&RGW on the line from Denver
to Amarillo, via Lamar...the Pueblo/Denver branch on west has much
higher likelihood as Pueblo was early steel/coal area but I'd be
extremely surprised to learn that the eastern line has been around
anyways nearly that long bac...but, I've not done any looking into it at
all.

--

dpb wrote in :

On 12/27/2014 12:30 PM, Dave in Texas wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
...

...

PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it
is, as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all
the way to/from coal country that I'm aware of...

I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver &
Rio Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is
where the Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
...

I don't know, either, but I doubt it was D&RGW on the line from Denver
to Amarillo, via Lamar...the Pueblo/Denver branch on west has much
higher likelihood as Pueblo was early steel/coal area but I'd be
extremely surprised to learn that the eastern line has been around
anyways nearly that long bac...but, I've not done any looking into it
at all.

Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

The Rio Grande doesn't go anywhere east of the foothills - it
got as far south as Trinidad then found itself blocked by the
Santa Fe. The Rio Grande (now UP) and the Santa Fe (now BNSF)
parallel each other from Denver to Pueblo, they share each
other's track so it's effectively double track.

The line from middle of nowhere up thru Limon to Denver was
originally the Kansas Pacific, which was basically a stock
promoters scam back in 1869. UP took it over in 1880.

John

On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
....

Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.

Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend...

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver eastern
section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the northern
branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs north.

It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another one
of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the Denver
markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of anything
else between to make up any other traffic.

The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not west
to Pueblo...

Again, this is all just what I "know" from dad/grandfather from growing
up in SW KS. Grandfather worked for Santa Fe in Argentine (KS, now
surrounded by KCK) until decided after a wheat harvest helping his
brother that he like farming better than railroading so they homestead
here together a few years later.

There was the old K&O (KS and OK) shortline that later on tried to do a
similar collection from the RI terminal in Liberal down to various spots
in the OK panhandle east of the RI mainline that went on to Guymon and
SW to Dalhart, TX. It lasted only a short time, too, for lack of enough
density in grain/cattle production to make it pay. The old railbed
location still shows as a hump in our dirt road on the way to town and
is slicker 'n glass in wet weather owing to the hard clay/caliche they
used in the roadbed grade...

--

dpb wrote in :

On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
the main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough
to have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver
eastern section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the
northern branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs
north.

It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another
one of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the
Denver markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of
anything else between to make up any other traffic.

The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not
west to Pueblo...

OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
the US287 route a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there isn't
a railroad paralleling US287 at Lamar...BNSF (with UP trackage
rights) parallels it from Amarillo to just over the CO border
where it bends off to La Junta (and eventually Pueblo), which
I'm pretty sure is the line the UP map shows. And at Kit Carson
you pick up the KP line up to Limon and Denver. But in between,
other than crossing the Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific lines,
I don't recall there being any railroad alongside US287.

John

On 12/27/2014 7:39 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
....
The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not
west to Pueblo...

OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
the US287 route a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there isn't
a railroad paralleling US287 at Lamar...BNSF (with UP trackage
rights) parallels it from Amarillo to just over the CO border
where it bends off to La Junta (and eventually Pueblo), which
I'm pretty sure is the line the UP map shows. And at Kit Carson
you pick up the KP line up to Limon and Denver. But in between,
other than crossing the Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific lines,
I don't recall there being any railroad alongside US287.

Coming from farther south, that makes sense...we're starting from north
of Dalhart (but east, of course), so we have to follow the N-S routes of
which there are several choices but absolutely no mileage difference
until get up to US50 to Lamar to pick up 287 to cut off the corner.
Otherwise it's straight N all the way to Colby to I70 which are the two
sides of the triangle...

IIRC, it's several miles N of Lamar before you can see any signs and
then it's not directly alongside but off to the west. Good chance never
notice it unless you see the trains; it's that far enough away from the
actual road...

I couldn't seem to find a map that has both rail and roads on it any
more to see more detail...

--

On 12/27/2014 4:17 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...

Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.

Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend...

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver eastern
section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the northern
branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs north.

It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another one
of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the Denver
markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of anything
else between to make up any other traffic.

The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not west
to Pueblo...

Again, this is all just what I "know" from dad/grandfather from growing
up in SW KS. Grandfather worked for Santa Fe in Argentine (KS, now
surrounded by KCK) until decided after a wheat harvest helping his
brother that he like farming better than railroading so they homestead
here together a few years later.

There was the old K&O (KS and OK) shortline that later on tried to do a
similar collection from the RI terminal in Liberal down to various spots
in the OK panhandle east of the RI mainline that went on to Guymon and
SW to Dalhart, TX. It lasted only a short time, too, for lack of enough
density in grain/cattle production to make it pay. The old railbed
location still shows as a hump in our dirt road on the way to town and
is slicker 'n glass in wet weather owing to the hard clay/caliche they
used in the roadbed grade...

--
And like I said - the San Antonio to El Paso and
Ft. Worth /DFW to El Paso.

And El Paso runs to LA via Tucson. From there, north and south (Naval
bases) and ends in Washington (naval yard).

Martin - been in the San Francisco Naval Yard on UP tracks working on an
old Steam engine. I did like the working tables in there.
We had to re-build the boiler and was taking out the long long bolts
that hold it all together. They had to be burnt off and the bolts
pounded out. Welder on the outside...

We were inside with two other engines being looked at - the Naval/UP
setup was deeded to the non-profit club that works on keeping the steam
up and maintains the place in case a fast move in is needed. Navy was
moved out by the Demo's. I have a patch for the work and money donated.

Martin

"Dave from SoTex" wrote in
:


UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.


UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the
Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
it between New Orleans and L.A.
It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something
that has been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S.
I worked a summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east
end of their Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood
Drive]. Ugly, smelly stuff. Lots of wood though!

Dave in soTex


It may be concrete ties are coming down in life cycle cost enough that
their advantages over wood ties are worth the investment, or the UP is
planning for possible higher speed rail. Train speeds much over highway
speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
ties. This is just speculation on my part, and maybe a bit of hope.

Sure would be nice to have another option for those trips where another
state is just in the way. (IL to OK has MO in the way. I44 in MO is
interesting, though.)

Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in
eb.com:

It may be concrete ties are coming down in life cycle cost enough that
their advantages over wood ties are worth the investment, or the UP is
planning for possible higher speed rail.

As I noted earlier, concrete ties have been the norm for mainlines
for the last 20 years or so. With a heavily used track, the rail
cuts into wood ties and they have to be replaced every couple of
years. The counterpart to that is that concrete ties are very
stiff, so the subroadbed has to be built very strong, so that the
ties don't flex at all. For a less-used secondary line, it makes
more sense to put less money into the roadbed, and use wood ties
which will flex without cracking.

Train speeds much over highway
speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
ties.

No, you can use wood or concrete at any speed. It's the weight
and number of trains that makes a difference, not the speed
(speed limit for freight trains is 69mph, for passenger 79mph
except for a handful of "high speed" lines. As you might guess
by the weird numbers, those are set by the Federal government).

Sure would be nice to have another option for those trips where
another state is just in the way. (IL to OK has MO in the way. I44
in MO is interesting, though.)

With airline seats being designed for 12 year old children, yeah,
having an adult alternative would certainly be nice :-)

John

On 12/27/2014 9:20 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 12/27/2014 4:17 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...

Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.

Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend...

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
....

And like I said - the San Antonio to El Paso and
Ft. Worth /DFW to El Paso.

And El Paso runs to LA via Tucson. From there, north and south (Naval
bases) and ends in Washington (naval yard).
....

All of which is true but doesn't much correlate w/ the sidebar
discussion of the routes thru W TX and to/from the coal regions of the
Powder Basin and environs...

--

On 12/27/2014 7:39 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in :

On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.

That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at

http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm

shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
....

Now I've been thinking...I'm not sure but what I've not seen both BNSF
and UP power on that stretch...but can't say for absolute certain. Now
I'm itching for another trip...

OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
the US287 route a couple of times...

That would be US56 from Clayton to Raton, I presume? You stopped at Mt
Capulin? It's worth the time imo if haven't. Hadn't been up to peak
since was a kid until last fall took a couple of the grandkids up to
Eagle Nest/Red River for a while--they only know the Smokies as
mountains being in Raleigh so stopped by on the way albeit it's a little
out of the way to Cimarron to go north to Raton and back down to get to
Eagle Nest. Wife's family has ground west of Clayton that we're the
operators for so we head out there fairly frequently--it's out in middle
of nowhere but for some mysterious reason NM has a 55 mph speed limit on
US 64 on over to Springer--that stretch takes, it seems, forever at that
rate. Sometimes for some variety we'll take a NM road from Roy on over
to Wagon Mound and up from there; it crosses the upper end of the N
Canadian across a nice little canyon for a scenic breakup on the way.
Going up to Raton at least gets one closer to the Johnson and Black
Mesas and the scattered foothills sooner than on over to Springer for a
little more diversion...

--