On 5/26/2014 9:35 PM, pentapus wrote:


Buick never expected the car owner to do their own maintenance. That
filter is hard to get to. In fairness to Buick, they do build a good
car, why can't the rest of GM manage that?

Most Buick owners probably would not open the hood. As for them
building a good car, my last one was a POS that I ended up giving away.
I was a GM buyer for years, but GM ****ed me off enough that I've not
bought one since my '01 LeSabre and won't ever again.

The 36,000 mile warranty was up after 18 months of driving and it was
down hill after that. The list of things that fell apart is very long.

On 5/27/2014 12:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2014 9:35 PM, pentapus wrote:


Buick never expected the car owner to do their own maintenance. That
filter is hard to get to. In fairness to Buick, they do build a good
car, why can't the rest of GM manage that?

Most Buick owners probably would not open the hood. As for them building
a good car, my last one was a POS that I ended up giving away. I was a
GM buyer for years, but GM ****ed me off enough that I've not bought one
since my '01 LeSabre and won't ever again.
....

Either folks or I or both have had one or more Buicks since '64 and nary
a one has ever been a bad 'un...only bad experience I've ever had w/ GM
was an '88 88 w/ a newly-introduced overdrive tranny design that went
south early. Counting all the farm trucks and pickups going back to
'28, I'd expect it would push 100 vehicles between personal and work
use. I'm confirmed GM guy, meself from our experience. There's still a
'58 C60 in use on the farm; I've been using it again today that's only
had brakes and some body work (ensilage is _very_ corrosive and it had
many, many years of use on feed-patrol)...current list includes '10
Enclave, '11 Lucerne, '98 and '99 PUs in the car, small truck varieties
plus a half-dozen assorted single- and tandem-axle medium-duty trucks
from '80s up.

--

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2014 9:35 PM, pentapus wrote:


Buick never expected the car owner to do their own maintenance. That
filter is hard to get to. In fairness to Buick, they do build a good
car, why can't the rest of GM manage that?

Most Buick owners probably would not open the hood. As for them
building a good car, my last one was a POS that I ended up giving
away. I was a GM buyer for years, but GM ****ed me off enough that
I've not bought one since my '01 LeSabre and won't ever again.

The 36,000 mile warranty was up after 18 months of driving and it was
down hill after that. The list of things that fell apart is very
long.

All true but in addition to that - there is no difference between the motor
that went into the buick and the motor that went into the chevy or the
pontiac. It has nothing to do with whether buick ever intended its owners
to open the hood. Only those who have never opened any of those hoods would
say/think this.

--

-Mike-

On 5/27/2014 12:45 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/26/2014 9:35 PM, pentapus wrote:


Buick never expected the car owner to do their own maintenance. That
filter is hard to get to. In fairness to Buick, they do build a good
car, why can't the rest of GM manage that?

Most Buick owners probably would not open the hood. As for them
building a good car, my last one was a POS that I ended up giving
away. I was a GM buyer for years, but GM ****ed me off enough that
I've not bought one since my '01 LeSabre and won't ever again.

The 36,000 mile warranty was up after 18 months of driving and it was
down hill after that. The list of things that fell apart is very
long.

All true but in addition to that - there is no difference between the motor
that went into the buick and the motor that went into the chevy or the
pontiac. It has nothing to do with whether buick ever intended its owners
to open the hood. Only those who have never opened any of those hoods would
say/think this.



And that would depend on what years you are talking about. Prior to the
mid 70's each GM division produced its own engines and they were all
significantly different from each other than the color that they were
painted. As I recall, Chevy had the 396 Pontiac had the 400, Chevy
later had the 454, Pontiac had the 455. All significantly different
engines.

Starting in the 70,s GM lines began sharing engines on certain vehicles.
If you will recall the fuss that was made from customers that were, for
instance, long time Oldsmobile owners, and expected to get the
Oldsmobile Rocket Engine that their previous vehicle had when they
learned that the engine in their new 88 had a Chevy engine in it.

My 75 Olds Starfire had the Buick V6 engine as did the similar Buick
SkyHawk. but the same Chevy vehicle, the Monza, came with a Chevy V8.

But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly all
painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

Leon wrote:


And that would depend on what years you are talking about. Prior to
the mid 70's each GM division produced its own engines and they were
all significantly different from each other than the color that they
were painted. As I recall, Chevy had the 396 Pontiac had the 400,
Chevy later had the 454, Pontiac had the 455. All significantly
different engines.


Point taken. I was not thinking that far back.


My 75 Olds Starfire had the Buick V6 engine as did the similar Buick
SkyHawk. but the same Chevy vehicle, the Monza, came with a Chevy V8.

But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly
all painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

Your points above are all correct. That said, each of those manufacturers
used the same underlying GM technology. For example - every division that
used a 3.1 and a 3.4 6 cyliner engine, suffered the same issues with the
intake gaskets. That was an 80's development if my memory serves me
correctly.

--

-Mike-

On 5/27/2014 1:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And that would depend on what years you are talking about. Prior to
the mid 70's each GM division produced its own engines and they were
all significantly different from each other than the color that they
were painted. As I recall, Chevy had the 396 Pontiac had the 400,
Chevy later had the 454, Pontiac had the 455. All significantly
different engines.


Point taken. I was not thinking that far back.


My 75 Olds Starfire had the Buick V6 engine as did the similar Buick
SkyHawk. but the same Chevy vehicle, the Monza, came with a Chevy V8.

But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly
all painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

Your points above are all correct. That said, each of those manufacturers
used the same underlying GM technology. For example - every division that
used a 3.1 and a 3.4 6 cyliner engine, suffered the same issues with the
intake gaskets. That was an 80's development if my memory serves me
correctly.



Exactly, LOL Since that time basically GM built 4 or 5 of everything,
hung slightly different sheet metal, header panels and interior trim,
and badges. None were better than the other. As far as the mechanics
were concerned a vast majority of the parts were the same.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 13:11:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:



But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly all
painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

I have a Sonata Limited with the 2.0 liter turbo. I've noticed that a
few other brands have a 2.0 liter turbo. I have to wonder if they are
all out of the same engine plant.

Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Honda, Nissan all have a 2.0. Coincidence?

My last Sonata had a V-6. It did me well and I read it was developed
with Chrysler and another car maker, maybe Mitsubishi.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

I have a Sonata Limited with the 2.0 liter turbo. I've noticed that
a
few other brands have a 2.0 liter turbo. I have to wonder if they
are
all out of the same engine plant.

Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Honda, Nissan all have a 2.0. Coincidence?
------------------------------------------------
Take a look at Europe.

Most European countries have laws on the books that penalize
cars with engines above 2.0 liters.

Lew

On 5/27/2014 5:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2014 13:11:16 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:



But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly all
painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

I have a Sonata Limited with the 2.0 liter turbo. I've noticed that a
few other brands have a 2.0 liter turbo. I have to wonder if they are
all out of the same engine plant.


Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Honda, Nissan all have a 2.0. Coincidence?

There will be no similarities in these different brands of engines other
than their size and number of cylinders. Just like in the 60,s Buick,
Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile all had 350ci V8's they were all
built with the same displacement but were all very unique.

Now in some instances these days the engines are the same. Audi being
owned by VW, shares engines with the VW. You will actually find Audi
branded parts under the hood of a VW.

Back in the 80's Chevrolet Isuzu and Honda had similar models. Isuzu
built the LUV pick-up for Chevrolet but later Chevrolet built the Isuzu
Rodeo for Isuzu. Strangely enough Isuzu had built for Honda, by
Chevrolet. a Honda version of the Rodeo, I forget what Honda called it.
Toyota used to build the Nova for Chevrolet in the 80's.


My last Sonata had a V-6. It did me well and I read it was developed
with Chrysler and another car maker, maybe Mitsubishi.

On 5/27/2014 3:23 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/27/2014 1:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And that would depend on what years you are talking about. Prior to
the mid 70's each GM division produced its own engines and they were
all significantly different from each other than the color that they
were painted. As I recall, Chevy had the 396 Pontiac had the 400,
Chevy later had the 454, Pontiac had the 455. All significantly
different engines.


Point taken. I was not thinking that far back.


My 75 Olds Starfire had the Buick V6 engine as did the similar Buick
SkyHawk. but the same Chevy vehicle, the Monza, came with a Chevy V8.

But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly
all painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

Your points above are all correct. That said, each of those
manufacturers
used the same underlying GM technology. For example - every division
that
used a 3.1 and a 3.4 6 cyliner engine, suffered the same issues with the
intake gaskets. That was an 80's development if my memory serves me
correctly.

Not so many in the Buick lineup where they were mostly using 3.8,
arguably one of the better engines. It seems to me that for most of it's
existance, Buick was trying to make a better car with the available parts.

The 80's were tough on GMs reputation, particularly for the upmarket
brands. Take note of the Cadillac Cimarron, which brought platform
sharing a step too far with Cadillac making up trimmed Cavaliers.
Something that took Cadillac a long time to recover it's reputation.



Exactly, LOL Since that time basically GM built 4 or 5 of everything,
hung slightly different sheet metal, header panels and interior trim,
and badges. None were better than the other. As far as the mechanics
were concerned a vast majority of the parts were the same.

Certainly one of the reasons why there is no more Pontiac.

Still, there must be something intangibly more, whatever that is, the
mechanics I know think well of the Buick brand. Whether it was a better
run assembly plant or resistance to offering the lesser engines and
parts, or less tampering by owners, I do not know, but it has had a
relatively untarnished reputation.


--
pentapus

pentapus wrote:


Not so many in the Buick lineup where they were mostly using 3.8,
arguably one of the better engines. It seems to me that for most of
it's existance, Buick was trying to make a better car with the
available parts.

In the Regal family the 3.8 was the norm, but in the Century and the LeSabre
line, the 3.4 (or the 3.1) was the norm. That significantly outnumbered the
3.8's in the Regal line.

--

-Mike-

On 5/27/2014 10:08 PM, pentapus wrote:
On 5/27/2014 3:23 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/27/2014 1:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


And that would depend on what years you are talking about. Prior to
the mid 70's each GM division produced its own engines and they were
all significantly different from each other than the color that they
were painted. As I recall, Chevy had the 396 Pontiac had the 400,
Chevy later had the 454, Pontiac had the 455. All significantly
different engines.


Point taken. I was not thinking that far back.


My 75 Olds Starfire had the Buick V6 engine as did the similar Buick
SkyHawk. but the same Chevy vehicle, the Monza, came with a Chevy V8.

But you are correct with more modern vehicles the engines are mostly
all painted black and who knows who makes the engine.

Your points above are all correct. That said, each of those
manufacturers
used the same underlying GM technology. For example - every division
that
used a 3.1 and a 3.4 6 cyliner engine, suffered the same issues with the
intake gaskets. That was an 80's development if my memory serves me
correctly.

Not so many in the Buick lineup where they were mostly using 3.8,
arguably one of the better engines. It seems to me that for most of it's
existance, Buick was trying to make a better car with the available parts.

The 3.8 was lucky to have made it. The early design was sold to
American Motors and eventually somewhere around the mid 70's Buick
bought back the engine. The first 3.8's were uneven fire engines. The
firing sequence was not balanced so the engine never quite ran as
smoothly as later models with a balanced sequence.





The 80's were tough on GMs reputation, particularly for the upmarket
brands. Take note of the Cadillac Cimarron, which brought platform
sharing a step too far with Cadillac making up trimmed Cavaliers.
Something that took Cadillac a long time to recover it's reputation.

That car and the Cadillac "Dr.Pepper" engine that suffered almost as bad
of a reputation as the Olds diesel. IIRC almost every one of those
engines were replaced by Cadillac.





Exactly, LOL Since that time basically GM built 4 or 5 of everything,
hung slightly different sheet metal, header panels and interior trim,
and badges. None were better than the other. As far as the mechanics
were concerned a vast majority of the parts were the same.

Certainly one of the reasons why there is no more Pontiac.

And Oldsmobile and almost no more GM. Having seen what went on from a
unique perspective, GM was not interested in building a more reliable
car. Year after year after year after year for decades GM used the same
crap replacement parts, in particular the electrical ones under the
hood. One would think that eventually they would have improved those
alternators, starters etc.




Still, there must be something intangibly more, whatever that is, the
mechanics I know think well of the Buick brand. Whether it was a better
run assembly plant or resistance to offering the lesser engines and
parts, or less tampering by owners, I do not know, but it has had a
relatively untarnished reputation.

Most Buick and Cadillac owners could better afford to maintain their
vehicles.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 23:45:07 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Still, there must be something intangibly more, whatever that is, the
mechanics I know think well of the Buick brand. Whether it was a better
run assembly plant or resistance to offering the lesser engines and
parts, or less tampering by owners, I do not know, but it has had a
relatively untarnished reputation.

Most Buick and Cadillac owners could better afford to maintain their
vehicles.

Astute observation.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:

Back in the 80's Chevrolet Isuzu and Honda had similar models. Isuzu
built the LUV pick-up for Chevrolet but later Chevrolet built the Isuzu
Rodeo for Isuzu. Strangely enough Isuzu had built for Honda, by
Chevrolet. a Honda version of the Rodeo, I forget what Honda called it.
Toyota used to build the Nova for Chevrolet in the 80's.


From 1984 to 2010, NUMMI (New United Motors Manufacturing Inc.,
a joint venture between Toyota and GM) built Nova's, Prizm's, Hilux,
Voltz (a version of the Pontiac Vibe), Tacomas, and the Corolla in California.
GM pulled out when it went bankrupt in 2009 and Toyota closed the
plant the next year.

The plant is now cranking out Tesla Model S.