I've tentatively settled on a design for my next project:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

I like the "ladder" sides, but it occurs to me now that they will
involve a lot of repetitive work, especially as I plan to make two of
these units. I figure to attach them to the stiles with dowels. That's 8
rails per side x 4 holes per rail x 2 sides x 2 units = 128 holes.

I did a test a while back using a Beadlock jig as a dowel guide. It
worked pretty well; the pieces (a tee joint) were in good alignment
afterwards. But I held each piece in the vise and then clamped the
Beadlock jig to the piece. Doing that 64 times is unappealing.

Here's my first idea for improving that:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/13990003519/

The black "box" is the drilling insert from the Beadlock jig. It has
threaded mounting holes that I would use to affix it to the plywood base.

The darker piece of 1x2 is the work piece. I suppose I could use two
toggle clamps and eliminate one of the guide blocks, but this seems more
certain to me.

Does this look like an effective method? Any improvements you can suggest?

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And on the same topic: I'm about to order some toggle clamps. I see that
there are some with horizontal handles and some with vertical. Can
anyone tell me why I might want one over the other, and in what
circumstances?

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On 5/13/2014 11:44 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
And on the same topic: I'm about to order some toggle clamps. I see that
there are some with horizontal handles and some with vertical. Can
anyone tell me why I might want one over the other, and in what
circumstances?

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Sure to keep the handles out of the way of fences, or cutting areas.
Also sometimes it's easier to push against lets say if it were high up,
others down.

BTW consider the Bessey's... you'll love them. Just move them from jig
to jig, since it's a one time jig.

--
Jeff

On 5/13/2014 9:01 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I've tentatively settled on a design for my next project:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490


I like the "ladder" sides, but it occurs to me now that they will
involve a lot of repetitive work, especially as I plan to make two of
these units. I figure to attach them to the stiles with dowels. That's 8
rails per side x 4 holes per rail x 2 sides x 2 units = 128 holes.

I did a test a while back using a Beadlock jig as a dowel guide. It
worked pretty well; the pieces (a tee joint) were in good alignment
afterwards. But I held each piece in the vise and then clamped the
Beadlock jig to the piece. Doing that 64 times is unappealing.

Your "ladder" arrangement is the same principal as the vertical "slats"
common to Craftsman/Arts & Crafts style, turned horizontally.

Any method that works in that application - from FF biscuits, to M&T, to
floating tenons, to routing a groove and filling the space in between
the "rungs" with spacers, et al, will work.

The method you chose depends mainly upon the tool(s) you have available
for the job. Were I to do it, I would use my Multi-Router and a single
floating tenon wide enough to keep the rungs from rotation. My next
choice would be two router jigs in this group of photos

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...madeMortiseJig

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...52629727758402

As many projects as you got in the pipe, this would be a perfect
opportunity to crowbar your wallet and spring for a Domino.

Of all the tools capable of making this a breeze, a Domino would fill
the bill in spades, quickly easily and efficiently.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 5/13/2014 11:57 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/13/2014 9:01 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I've tentatively settled on a design for my next project:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490



I like the "ladder" sides, but it occurs to me now that they will
involve a lot of repetitive work, especially as I plan to make two of
these units. I figure to attach them to the stiles with dowels. That's 8
rails per side x 4 holes per rail x 2 sides x 2 units = 128 holes.

I did a test a while back using a Beadlock jig as a dowel guide. It
worked pretty well; the pieces (a tee joint) were in good alignment
afterwards. But I held each piece in the vise and then clamped the
Beadlock jig to the piece. Doing that 64 times is unappealing.

Your "ladder" arrangement is the same principal as the vertical "slats"
common to Craftsman/Arts & Crafts style, turned horizontally.

Any method that works in that application - from FF biscuits, to M&T, to
floating tenons, to routing a groove and filling the space in between
the "rungs" with spacers, et al, will work.

The method you chose depends mainly upon the tool(s) you have available
for the job. Were I to do it, I would use my Multi-Router and a single
floating tenon wide enough to keep the rungs from rotation. My next
choice would be two router jigs in this group of photos

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...madeMortiseJig

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...52629727758402


As many projects as you got in the pipe, this would be a perfect
opportunity to crowbar your wallet and spring for a Domino.

Well thank goodness I will not be the one being accused of being the
first to suggest this. ;~)
FWIW the Domino has more than paid for itself time and again and it is
afforded me the opportunity to build better and faster.

It is one of those tools that you might one day actually wear out. I
Mine has cut 7~8 thousand mortises and is still going strong.


Of all the tools capable of making this a breeze, a Domino would fill
the bill in spades, quickly easily and efficiently.

In article ,
Greg Guarino wrote:
And on the same topic: I'm about to order some toggle clamps. I see that
there are some with horizontal handles and some with vertical. Can
anyone tell me why I might want one over the other, and in what
circumstances?

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Often one or the other is required for clearance or to take up
less space in a particular application. Otherwise it's just personal
preference.

--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...
I've tentatively settled on a design for my next project:
more certain to me.

Does this look like an effective method? Any improvements you can suggest?

The way it is drawn, you could butt join all of the ladders, gluing and
clamping them all in place, and before the glue sets, run screws in all the
way through the end's stiles, into the ladders. If you drilled and
countersunk them before time, it would be quick, and the screws would be
totally concealed by the front and back side stiles. You get the strength
of the mechanical fastening, that way too. You might not even need the
glue.
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote in message

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
...
I've tentatively settled on a design for my next
project: more certain to me.

Does this look like an effective method? Any
improvements you can suggest?

The way it is drawn, you could butt join all of the
ladders, gluing and clamping them all in place, and
before the glue sets, run screws in all the way through
the end's stiles, into the ladders. If you drilled and
countersunk them before time, it would be quick, and the
screws would be totally concealed by the front and back
side stiles. You get the strength of the mechanical
fastening, that way too. You might not even need the
glue.

About as easy and simple as it gets. +1

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 5/13/2014 12:57 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/13/2014 9:01 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I've tentatively settled on a design for my next project:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490



I like the "ladder" sides, but it occurs to me now that they will
involve a lot of repetitive work, especially as I plan to make two of
these units. I figure to attach them to the stiles with dowels. That's 8
rails per side x 4 holes per rail x 2 sides x 2 units = 128 holes.

I did a test a while back using a Beadlock jig as a dowel guide. It
worked pretty well; the pieces (a tee joint) were in good alignment
afterwards. But I held each piece in the vise and then clamped the
Beadlock jig to the piece. Doing that 64 times is unappealing.

Your "ladder" arrangement is the same principal as the vertical "slats"
common to Craftsman/Arts & Crafts style, turned horizontally.

My previous design included vertical slats. Call them a casualty of
Sketchup; it makes it easy to indulge your imagination.


Any method that works in that application - from FF biscuits, to M&T, to
floating tenons, to routing a groove and filling the space in between
the "rungs" with spacers, et al, will work.

The method you chose depends mainly upon the tool(s) you have available
for the job.

Always a consideration here, including the available "personal" tools. I
do try to plan projects to expand that skill-set a bit, though.

Were I to do it, I would use my Multi-Router

Sounds nice. Is this where wrec custom dictates that I tell you that you
suck?

and a single
floating tenon wide enough to keep the rungs from rotation. My next
choice would be two router jigs in this group of photos

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...madeMortiseJig

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...52629727758402

That would be clamping and routing x 64. Maybe there's a jig to speed up
moving from one piece to the next, but it sounds pretty time-consuming.
Then I'd need to make the tenon stock.

As many projects as you got in the pipe, this would be a perfect
opportunity to crowbar your wallet and spring for a Domino.

I'd first have to crowbar open my wallet to fit in all of the other
crowbars.

Someone else noted something I realized myself; that the sides of the
ladders will be hidden. So I could conceivably even use screws. I'm
still leaning toward the "cylindrical loose tenons" though, so far. I'll
probably make some test joints and see what I think afterwards.

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On 5/14/2014 6:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

That would be clamping and routing x 64. Maybe there's a jig to speed up
moving from one piece to the next, but it sounds pretty time-consuming.
Then I'd need to make the tenon stock.

If you are realizing your design takes more time and work to implement
than you are willing to spend, then perhaps you need to re-think it?


As many projects as you got in the pipe, this would be a perfect
opportunity to crowbar your wallet and spring for a Domino.

I'd first have to crowbar open my wallet to fit in all of the other
crowbars.

Someone else noted something I realized myself; that the sides of the
ladders will be hidden. So I could conceivably even use screws. I'm
still leaning toward the "cylindrical loose tenons" though, so far. I'll
probably make some test joints and see what I think afterwards.

Then you'd have to drill what, 128 holes for screws? Heaven forbid!

Do you have a plate joiner? Relatively inexpensive tool and, using FF
biscuits, would do roughly the same thing as the Domino and just as quickly.

And .... there's always Ikea. just kidding

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 5/14/2014 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:

Then you'd have to drill what, 128 holes for screws? Heaven forbid!

As I mentioned, I'm not leaning toward using screws. But If I did go
that way, I could presumably clamp a whole "ladder" in place on a
surface and drill all the holes (on one side) in one operation. It's not
so much the routing or drilling that seems like it would be
time-consuming, it's the clamping and re-clamping for each and every piece.

I do need 128 holes for dowels (256 actually, including the ones in the
stiles), but I think I have come up with a way to greatly speed up the
time between one setup and the next. I could be kidding myself (at my
skill level it happens frequently). We'll see.

Do you have a plate joiner? Relatively inexpensive tool and, using FF
biscuits, would do roughly the same thing as the Domino and just as
quickly.

I do have a plate joiner, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't do FF biscuits.
I briefly considered wider "rungs" in the design process (for that
reason), but didn't like the look as much.

As for buying a Domino, the perversity of having a Domino but no table
saw appeals to my sense of humor, but I think I'll have to pass for now.

My plan right now is to try to make the drilling jig this weekend and
maybe make a Roman Numeral "III" out of scrap as a test. Likely as not
my plans will be altered afterwards.


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On 5/14/2014 8:40 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 5/14/2014 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:

Then you'd have to drill what, 128 holes for screws? Heaven forbid!

As I mentioned, I'm not leaning toward using screws. But If I did go
that way, I could presumably clamp a whole "ladder" in place on a
surface and drill all the holes (on one side) in one operation. It's not
so much the routing or drilling that seems like it would be
time-consuming, it's the clamping and re-clamping for each and every piece.

OK! You have now officially talked about how long it would take than it
would have actually taken even if you had hand carved each. :~)

This is part of woodworking, not all of it is as glamorous as sanding. ;~)

Believe it or not the act of actually drilling/doweling,screwing,
tenoning, etc teaches you more about the time that is actually involved
than thinking it out. Don't get me wrong, thinking ahead for the next
step is a good thing but there comes a point when doing the deed teaches
you more about a better way to do something than planing. Doing shows
the fallacy in your thinking.

128 holes is nothing. Wait till you start drilling shelf pin holes
every 1.25" times 4 for a tall cabinet, and then for 2~3 cabinets. Yes
it will take hours but not that many hours. A couple of years ago I
built 3 book cabinets for a customer and the top portions of the
cabinets alone required 667 holes for the shelves. Yes 667 holes, I was
not stopping at the one lower number.

IIRC the two walnut curio cabinets required in excess of 300 holes for
top and bottom cabinets.

And if you buy a Domino the time savings alone would pay for the
machine. :~)






I do need 128 holes for dowels (256 actually, including the ones in the
stiles), but I think I have come up with a way to greatly speed up the
time between one setup and the next. I could be kidding myself (at my
skill level it happens frequently). We'll see.

Do you have a plate joiner? Relatively inexpensive tool and, using FF
biscuits, would do roughly the same thing as the Domino and just as
quickly.

I do have a plate joiner, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't do FF biscuits.
I briefly considered wider "rungs" in the design process (for that
reason), but didn't like the look as much.

As for buying a Domino, the perversity of having a Domino but no table
saw appeals to my sense of humor, but I think I'll have to pass for now.

My plan right now is to try to make the drilling jig this weekend and
maybe make a Roman Numeral "III" out of scrap as a test. Likely as not
my plans will be altered afterwards.


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On Wed, 14 May 2014 09:26:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
And if you buy a Domino the time savings alone would pay for the
machine. :~)

And, that's the truth. People complain about the price of the Domino,
but the time it saves coupled with what it can do makes it an
outstanding purchase.

The fact is, that you can't compare it to a biscuit joiner. The Domino
stands head and shoulders above what any biscuit joiner can do.

"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


Someone else noted something I realized myself; that the
sides of the ladders will be hidden. So I could conceivably even use
screws. I'm still leaning toward the "cylindrical loose tenons"
though, so far. I'll probably make some test joints and see what I think
afterwards.

The screws would be stronger, easier and way faster. You only need two, one
at each end of the slat...at one end, offset the screw slightly above
center, at the other end, slightly below center...no twist possible,
accuracy unimportant.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message


128 holes is nothing. Wait till you start drilling shelf
pin holes

Or hanging sheet rock. Very easy to go through a box of 1000, 128 holes is
piddling.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Greg Guarino" wrote

My plan right now is to try to make the drilling jig this weekend and
maybe make a Roman Numeral "III" out of scrap as a test. Likely as not my
plans will be altered afterwards.

Why would you want to make a drilling jig? Not everything needs a jig.

Step one: Clamp the whole end in place flat on the bench. With the
precision you want to end up with. You can make a story pole to make both
sides and both ends identical to speed up the process. Look up story pole
if you do not know what it is.

Step two: Grab the drill with a drill/countersink combination bit. Drill
all of the holes by eyeball. No jig needed. You can estimate where to put
the holes.

Step three: Put screws in all of the holes with your fingers.

Step four: Grab your drill or impact driver and send all of the screw in
tight.

Step five: Take the clamping off. Your end is done. 30 minutes tops,
after the pieces are cut.

I love jigs. I make all kinds of them. It is good to know when one is
necessary or when you just get to it and build something without one. This
is one of the second times.
--
Jim in NC




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On 5/14/2014 1:18 PM, Morgans wrote:


"Greg Guarino" wrote

My plan right now is to try to make the drilling jig this weekend and
maybe make a Roman Numeral "III" out of scrap as a test. Likely as not
my plans will be altered afterwards.

Why would you want to make a drilling jig? Not everything needs a jig.

Step one: Clamp the whole end in place flat on the bench. With the
precision you want to end up with. You can make a story pole to make
both sides and both ends identical to speed up the process. Look up
story pole if you do not know what it is.

Step two: Grab the drill with a drill/countersink combination bit.
Drill all of the holes by eyeball. No jig needed. You can estimate
where to put the holes.

Step three: Put screws in all of the holes with your fingers.

Step four: Grab your drill or impact driver and send all of the screw
in tight.

Step five: Take the clamping off. Your end is done. 30 minutes tops,
after the pieces are cut.

I love jigs. I make all kinds of them. It is good to know when one is
necessary or when you just get to it and build something without one.
This is one of the second times.

The jig would be to drill holes for dowels. I agree that with screws I
would not need a jig.

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