I know someone here has this.

My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old.
It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar.
When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing?
replace sheathing (with what?)
tar paper and hot tar?
What I would call "Ice and water shield"?
I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a built up
steel roof.
I like the terra cotta look anyway.

Ed

On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:
I know someone here has this.

My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old.
It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar.
When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing?
replace sheathing (with what?)
tar paper and hot tar?
What I would call "Ice and water shield"?
I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a
built up steel roof.
I like the terra cotta look anyway.

Ed


I thought those were life time roofs.

the tiles last but the waterproofing underneath gets destroyed by the heat
the tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect the
sheathing from the sun
Ed

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:
I know someone here has this.

My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old.
It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar.
When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing?
replace sheathing (with what?)
tar paper and hot tar?
What I would call "Ice and water shield"?
I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a
built up steel roof.
I like the terra cotta look anyway.

Ed


I thought those were life time roofs.

On Monday, February 18, 2013 6:44:05 PM UTC-6, Ed Ahern wrote:
the tiles last but the waterproofing underneath gets destroyed by the heat the tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect the sheathing from the sun

That doesn't sound right, to me.

One of those pre-Hurricane Andrew contractors must have installed that sheathing.

Sonny

Ed Ahern wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:
I know someone here has this.

My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old.
It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar.
When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing?
replace sheathing (with what?)
tar paper and hot tar?
What I would call "Ice and water shield"?
I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a
built up steel roof.
I like the terra cotta look anyway.

Ed


I thought those were life time roofs.

the tiles last but the waterproofing underneath gets destroyed by the
heat the tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect
the sheathing from the sun
Ed

What *should* be under the tiles is 90# roofing material. It is much, much
heavier than *tar paper* and has mineral grains embedded in it. You said it
doesn't leak, what makes you think it is being destroyed?

In the unlikely event that you do get leaks and they are so profuse that
they can't get fixed, you would...

1. tear off all tiles
2. maybe, tear off old 90#
3. hot mop on new 90#
4. put on new tiles, nailing the first course and affixing the rest with
mortar
5. get a loan to pay for the above

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Feb 19, 6:49*am, "dadiOH" wrote:

I myself don't worry too much about things that haven't happened.
Plenty on my plate these past few years to sit and fret about things
that haven't happened yet.

1. tear off all tiles
2. maybe, tear off old 90#
3. hot mop on new 90#
4. put on new tiles, nailing the first course and affixing the rest with
mortar
5. get a loan to pay for the above

I howled after reading this. I do a lot of roof work and tile
replacement and repair is in my toolbox as I have a good technician
for small repairs, access to a huge tile boneyard, and work with a
great tile installation sub contractor.

You have no idea how true #5 is... I LOVE tile work as it is hard to
master, but literally pays much, much better than anything else I
do. By a long shot. A re-lay is one thing, but repairs....
Ahhhh....

Usually, my customers have already had tile repairs done incorrectly,
and that makes me a referral from another customer. Since they are
coming to me after they have had an unsuccessful dealing with a tile
roof repair contractor and because I give them a written warranty
(something unheard of on roof repairs) and because I have confidence
in my troubleshooting and repair abilities, I get my price. Most tile
repair guys screw up more than they fix, so they don't warranty their
work or slip out of it if the warranty is exercised.

Like I said, I LOVE tile repairs. And OP's barrel tiles (if they are
a true, two piece, clay extrusion) are the hardest tile roofs to
trouble shoot and repair. They are the most expensive to repair of
all roofs.

Robert

I live in a community of 200 homes. All built around the same time by the
same developer. It looks like we are losing about 10 roofs a year.
90# material may very well be what's underneath the tiles.(I did not know
what to call it)
Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or just
different? I have seen them install both types, different houses.
I'm just trying to be a informed consumer.
Ed

"dadiOH" wrote in message ...

Ed Ahern wrote:

"Leon" wrote in message
...

On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:
I know someone here has this.

My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old.
It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar.
When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing?
replace sheathing (with what?)
tar paper and hot tar?
What I would call "Ice and water shield"?
I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a
built up steel roof.
I like the terra cotta look anyway.

Ed


I thought those were life time roofs.

the tiles last but the waterproofing underneath gets destroyed by the
heat the tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect
the sheathing from the sun
Ed

What *should* be under the tiles is 90# roofing material. It is much, much
heavier than *tar paper* and has mineral grains embedded in it. You said it
doesn't leak, what makes you think it is being destroyed?

In the unlikely event that you do get leaks and they are so profuse that
they can't get fixed, you would...

1. tear off all tiles
2. maybe, tear off old 90#
3. hot mop on new 90#
4. put on new tiles, nailing the first course and affixing the rest with
mortar
5. get a loan to pay for the above

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Ed Ahern wrote:
I live in a community of 200 homes. All built around the same time by
the same developer. It looks like we are losing about 10 roofs a year.

Losing them to what? What is wrong/happening to them?

90# material may very well be what's underneath the tiles.(I did not
know what to call it)
Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or
just different? I have seen them install both types, different houses.
I'm just trying to be a informed consumer.

Is it better? I have no idea. I've seen "rubber" membranes used but not
under tile. Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile roofs. Or ther
kinds, for that matter.

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the
menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well to the 90# felt
assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.

Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the tiles to
those. Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as soon not have 100s
& 100s of nails going through whatever is supposed to keep out the water.
Nor am I all that keen on having all those wood battens up there getting wet
and trapping water; as you pointed out, water does get under the tiles.

There are probably other ways too. A good way to inform yourself would be
to browse thew sites of tile manufacturers and get their installation PDFs
to read. Here are a couple one to get you started...

http://www.rooftile.com/information/...formation.html

http://www.hansonrooftile.com/index...._in formation

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

OK, Ed. There are true barrel tiles, and they are extruded clay, a
two piece overlap system.

Then there are barrel shaped cement tiles. These are not actual
barrel tiles, but concrete manufactured tiles manufactured to have the
appearance and coloration of real clay tiles.

Here's a hint. If the tiles are "U" shaped and very fragile, about
16" long and about 7 - 8" across, they are true barrel tiles. They
will not be uniform in shape or dimension.

If they are uniform in shape and dimension and actually look like
tile, no matter what the profile (barrel, half barrel, striated,
smooth, rough, etc.) they are probably concrete.

So which do you have?

Robert

concrete.
I'm sorry if my nomenclature is inaccurate, I used to fix elevators not
houses.
they are not clay for sure.

Ed

wrote in message
...

OK, Ed. There are true barrel tiles, and they are extruded clay, a
two piece overlap system.

Then there are barrel shaped cement tiles. These are not actual
barrel tiles, but concrete manufactured tiles manufactured to have the
appearance and coloration of real clay tiles.

Here's a hint. If the tiles are "U" shaped and very fragile, about
16" long and about 7 - 8" across, they are true barrel tiles. They
will not be uniform in shape or dimension.

If they are uniform in shape and dimension and actually look like
tile, no matter what the profile (barrel, half barrel, striated,
smooth, rough, etc.) they are probably concrete.

So which do you have?

Robert

Thank you for the links, they will be helpful.

by losing I mean starting to leak, mostly in valleys and around
penetrations.
the tiles look good but the roof underlayment is failing.
I was able to look at one being stripped and it looks like a dried out
riverbed, all cracked and separated.

Ed

"dadiOH" wrote in message ...

Ed Ahern wrote:
I live in a community of 200 homes. All built around the same time by
the same developer. It looks like we are losing about 10 roofs a year.

Losing them to what? What is wrong/happening to them?

90# material may very well be what's underneath the tiles.(I did not
know what to call it)
Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or
just different? I have seen them install both types, different houses.
I'm just trying to be a informed consumer.

Is it better? I have no idea. I've seen "rubber" membranes used but not
under tile. Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile roofs. Or ther
kinds, for that matter.

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the
menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well to the 90# felt
assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.

Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the tiles to
those. Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as soon not have 100s
& 100s of nails going through whatever is supposed to keep out the water.
Nor am I all that keen on having all those wood battens up there getting wet
and trapping water; as you pointed out, water does get under the tiles.

There are probably other ways too. A good way to inform yourself would be
to browse thew sites of tile manufacturers and get their installation PDFs
to read. Here are a couple one to get you started...

http://www.rooftile.com/information/...formation.html

http://www.hansonrooftile.com/index...._in formation

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Feb 19, 2:20*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or
just different? I have seen them install both types, different houses.
I'm just trying to be a informed consumer.

Is it better? *I have no idea. *I've seen "rubber" membranes used but not
under tile. *Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile roofs. *Or ther
kinds, for that matter.

Rubber, extruded styrene, 90# mineral faced felt, and a couple of
others are now the standard for re-laying tiles. Two layers of 15# or
one layer of 30# is still used by tract home or semi custom builders
because it cuts down the cost of installation by thousands per house.

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the
menbrane. *One way is to use mortar. *That will stick well to the 90# felt
assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.

Not possible. If you had practical experience in this you would know
that cement does not stick to felt paper. If so, not for long. As
organic felts dry out they shrink, and as the solvents leave the
asphalt, it contributes a lot to this. As a matter of fact, the paper
can shrink enough to tear itself on long enough runs. At the worst
end, it can crack and destroy itself as a substrate. Regardless, this
shrinkage will easily destroy the bond (if any) of the cement to the
felt.

Unless you have another cite for the information that you "know", it
would be good for you to read information that you yourself posted,
you would see that NOWHERE in the 200 page installation guide is
mortar mentioned or accepted as as any kind of installation tool or
medium.

The oldest tile houses I have repaired were built in the 1930s.
Unless it happened well before that and it was a special tile I know
of no tile ever made that was made to be set in mortar or to be
adhered by it.

Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the tiles to
those. *Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as soon not have 100s
& 100s of nails going through whatever is supposed to keep out the water.
Nor am I all that keen on having all those wood battens up there getting wet
and trapping water; as you pointed out, water does get under the tiles.

ALL, yes ALL tile roofs leak. It is the nature of their design.
Because you don't see a stain on your ceiling doesn't mean water isn't
penetrating. The idea behind a good unerlayment and installation
procedure is to recognize this fact as part of the roof itself and to
deal with it. A few drops leaking in here and there will simply
spread out over a lot of the roof surface and simply dry up. This can
go on for decades, and as long as the roof underlayment is intact,
there is no reason it can't. It is part of the design.

dadiOH, I have seen you post here for years and you have been a great
voice of information and encouragement to others as long as I can
remember. This is serious business, though. Tile roofs and their
installation is a highly technical field and requires not only
complete adherence to manufacturer's specifications in general, but to
any specifications that have been developed for your local region.
This is not the old days where you slapped down a bunch of tiles and
if it didn't leak it was a success.

There are dozens of issues to consider. On tile roofs you have tile
creep on very hot days where the tiles sitting out on a 100 degree day
will actually expand and tear up flashing details. Metal flashings
flex, manufacturer's flaws in tiles will cause them to crack, and any
local conditions that exist must be considered. The installation will
be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and then it will be
specific to the type of tile, further narrowed in scope to the actual
slope and profile of the roof.

So be careful when you opine or direct these things if you don't have
personal experience. Your own opinions run counter to the
installation procedures accepted and spelled out as requirements in
the very information links you posted.

For example, 1 X 2 battens are required here for any lugged tiles.
Lugged tiles are generally used in 4/12 pitches and required on
anything higher. It is a manufacturer's requirement. I don't know of
anyone in the US that still makes a low slope lugless tiles. Our
local requirements from the manufacturers are specific as to the nails
to be used to affix the required battens, the nail patterns used to
affix them, the spacing of battens, provision of weep holes, and the
specification of how high each batten must be held off the
underlayment.

To address your concerns about the nails and their penetrations, all
underlayment is required to be self healing so that it will seal
around the nails. Modified bitumen, 90# felt, ice and water shield,
and even 30# felt all do this.

There are endless reams of documents that spell out flashing details,
acceptable flashing materials, mechanical fastening systems, specs for
adhesives and sealants, penetration details and on and on.

My point is, and I say this with respect, this is a highly technical
field that one needs to make sure they completely fluent and confident
in their information.

Robert

On Feb 19, 4:08*pm, "Ed Ahern" wrote:
Thank you for the links, they will be helpful.

by losing I mean starting to leak, mostly in valleys and around
penetrations.
the tiles look good but the roof underlayment is failing.
I was able to look at one being stripped and it looks like a dried out
riverbed, all cracked and separated.

These were roofs that used organic felt underlayment, and it has dried
out, become brittle and started to fail. This is typical, and in the
harsh sunshine and temps of the South, this is the norm.

The underlayment fails because it dries out completely. The dried
riverbed look is caused by all solvents and oils of the asphalt
leaving the felt due to high heat over long periods, and the cotton
fiber used to manufacture the felt rotting away. If you pick up those
pieces of felt paper you would find them more fragile than a thin
potato chip.

Once the underlayment fails, the roof fails.

When I do a relay of any sort (sometimes it is just the side with the
most sun exposure on a roof that fails) I always use ice and water
shield. I prefer CertainTeed or TAMKO, but avoid Owens Corning like
the plague. It is thin, inflexible, has poor adhesion, and its lack
of thickness makes it hazardous to walk on. I don't want a tear in
the surface I am walking on if it is a 6/12 or better slope.

Ice and water shield is availble in many different forms. Get the
thickest stuff you can that is flexible, and use that for
underlayment. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation
of your specific tile that are required for your specific region to
the letter after that.

Robert

wrote:
On Feb 19, 2:20 pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or
just different? I have seen them install both types, different
houses. I'm just trying to be a informed consumer.

Is it better? I have no idea. I've seen "rubber" membranes used but
not under tile. Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile
roofs. Or ther kinds, for that matter.

Rubber, extruded styrene, 90# mineral faced felt, and a couple of
others are now the standard for re-laying tiles. Two layers of 15# or
one layer of 30# is still used by tract home or semi custom builders
because it cuts down the cost of installation by thousands per house.

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the
tile to the menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well
to the 90# felt assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I
would guess, 5:12.

Not possible. If you had practical experience in this you would know
that cement does not stick to felt paper.

No it doesn't but it does stick to the mineral grains embedded in it. Both
chemically and - especially - mechanically. It seems to work well on roofs
with moderate pitch. I refer you to the Florida Roofing, Sheet metal and
Airconditioning Contractors Association manual for "Concrete and Clay Roof
Tile Installation". OP might like it too as it details various systems.

If so, not for long. As
organic felts dry out they shrink, and as the solvents leave the
asphalt, it contributes a lot to this. As a matter of fact, the paper
can shrink enough to tear itself on long enough runs. At the worst
end, it can crack and destroy itself as a substrate. Regardless, this
shrinkage will easily destroy the bond (if any) of the cement to the
felt.

We recently had to repair a section on a valley on our 17 year old tile
roof. The repair was necessitated not by any failure of tile or membrane
but by what I shall call "contractor shortcuts". Or, "contractor laziness".
Or even "contractor stupidity"

The repair wasn't a big deal, pop up tiles, do repairs, put tiles back down.
The purpose of this narrative is to affirm that the tiles do pop up fairly
easily. In about half, IRC, the tile released from the mortar which stayed
bonded to the membrane, in the rest, the whole works came up, the mineral
grains in the felt releasing from it.

Personally, I don't find the relative ease of removing the tiles to be a
problem; there *is* a bond, albeit not a super strong one, but that bond
coupled with the weight of the tiles has kept them in place for 17 years and
four hurricanes, one of which was of considerable duration and with
sustained winds close to 100 mph, gusts to 150 mph.

Unless you have another cite for the information that you "know", it
would be good for you to read information that you yourself posted,
you would see that NOWHERE in the 200 page installation guide is
mortar mentioned or accepted as as any kind of installation tool or
medium.

I'll have to go read it

Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the
tiles to those. Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as
soon not have 100s & 100s of nails going through whatever is
supposed to keep out the water. Nor am I all that keen on having all
those wood battens up there getting wet and trapping water; as you
pointed out, water does get under the tiles.

ALL, yes ALL tile roofs leak. It is the nature of their design.
Because you don't see a stain on your ceiling doesn't mean water isn't
penetrating. The idea behind a good unerlayment and installation
procedure is to recognize this fact as part of the roof itself and to
deal with it. A few drops leaking in here and there will simply
spread out over a lot of the roof surface and simply dry up. This can
go on for decades, and as long as the roof underlayment is intact,
there is no reason it can't. It is part of the design.

Indeed; the tiles are mainly a pretty-pretty.

dadiOH, I have seen you post here for years and you have been a great
voice of information and encouragement to others as long as I can
remember. This is serious business, though. Tile roofs and their
installation is a highly technical field and requires not only
complete adherence to manufacturer's specifications in general, but to
any specifications that have been developed for your local region.
This is not the old days where you slapped down a bunch of tiles and
if it didn't leak it was a success.

There are dozens of issues to consider. On tile roofs you have tile
creep on very hot days where the tiles sitting out on a 100 degree day
will actually expand and tear up flashing details. Metal flashings
flex, manufacturer's flaws in tiles will cause them to crack, and any
local conditions that exist must be considered. The installation will
be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and then it will be
specific to the type of tile, further narrowed in scope to the actual
slope and profile of the roof.

So be careful when you opine or direct these things if you don't have
personal experience. Your own opinions run counter to the
installation procedures accepted and spelled out as requirements in
the very information links you posted.

For example, 1 X 2 battens are required here for any lugged tiles.
Lugged tiles are generally used in 4/12 pitches and required on
anything higher. It is a manufacturer's requirement. I don't know of
anyone in the US that still makes a low slope lugless tiles. Our
local requirements from the manufacturers are specific as to the nails
to be used to affix the required battens, the nail patterns used to
affix them, the spacing of battens, provision of weep holes, and the
specification of how high each batten must be held off the
underlayment.

To address your concerns about the nails and their penetrations, all
underlayment is required to be self healing so that it will seal
around the nails. Modified bitumen, 90# felt, ice and water shield,
and even 30# felt all do this.

I'm paranoid, I still prefer to avoid penetrations.

My FIL put a standing seam metal roof on his house (my wife wound up with
it). Nice roof, long lasting, nailed on with those little rubbery grommets
under the nails. IT doesn't leak as far as I can tell but these grommets
are way less rubbery than they were when new; the UV, I would guess.

There are endless reams of documents that spell out flashing details,
acceptable flashing materials, mechanical fastening systems, specs for
adhesives and sealants, penetration details and on and on.

My point is, and I say this with respect, this is a highly technical
field that one needs to make sure they completely fluent and confident
in their information.

I agree totally. As I tried to indicate, I'm a consumer, not a contractor
and when I post on something like this I am talking from my own limited and
non-technical experience. However, I do observe and try to figure out why
something is done the way it is. And when something fails, I try to figure
out why it failed. An example: I have some corner bead on a soffit that
has developed a crack along the edge; in one place, about 24" of mud fell
down. Why? Best I can figure is that the corner bead wasn't fastened well
enough.

And I have encountered similar failures many, many times with all sorts of
things...houses, autos, furniture, you name it. All attributable to the
aforementioned "contractor shortcuts/lazziness/stupidity".

Robert, if all contractors were as knowledgeable and conscientous as you
appear to be it would be a better world. May your tribe increase, ojala que
si.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
Unless you have another cite for the information that you "know", it
would be good for you to read information that you yourself posted,
you would see that NOWHERE in the 200 page installation guide is
mortar mentioned or accepted as as any kind of installation tool or
medium.

I'll have to go read it

I just did. Both link to the Florida Roofing, Sheet metal and
Airconditioning Contractors Association manual for "Concrete and Clay Roof
Tile Installation" I just mentioned.

You didn't see the details re mudding in tiles?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Feb 20, 7:53*am, "dadiOH" wrote:

You didn't see the details re mudding in tiles?

Yes, I did. I will confess that you had me worried enough to go back
and re-read. As suspected, the mortar notes for were details, eaves,
rakes, hips, and for closing up and sealing intersecting roof lines of
dissimilar pitches. It can also be used for wind deflection, which is
something I didn't know about. We either have no wind or tornadoes
here. Not much to worry about in between.

My response was to your comment

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the
menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well to the 90# felt
assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.

I had this picture of mudding in entire roofs (no doubt, someone has
tried it, though) and setting the tiles in it like saltillo tile in a
thickset application.

So.... I hope Ed go something out of all of this.

Next, I thank you for taking my comments the right way and not
starting to foam at the mouth when someone questions you as some here
tend to do. I was counting on the fact that I have always seen you
conduct yourself as a gentleman, and as I thought you would, you
responded that same way. And thanks for the comments on my
contracting direction; I do try to do the best I can. After all, it
is my name on the door.

But a really big thanks to you for finding that installation guide.
On my second visit I noticed that just about every heavy hitter in the
world of roofing that makes water proofing agents and materials, metal
fasteners, adhesives, flashings, tiles, panels, etc. participated in
the construction of that manual. I has every reference to the
industry standards and manufacturer's standards (chapter and verse is
often hard to come by when you need it!) that is needed when
consulting in or investigating a tile roof.

It is now safely tucked away on my hard drive and will be used for
future reference. If you were here, I would gladly buy you a cigar!

Robert

wrote:
On Feb 20, 7:53 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

You didn't see the details re mudding in tiles?

Yes, I did. I will confess that you had me worried enough to go back
and re-read. As suspected, the mortar notes for were details, eaves,
rakes, hips, and for closing up and sealing intersecting roof lines of
dissimilar pitches. It can also be used for wind deflection, which is
something I didn't know about. We either have no wind or tornadoes
here. Not much to worry about in between.

Check out Section Three. It starts at pp 55 in the pdf and deals with
mudding in field tiles (in addition to lots of additional info as you
noted). They do hedge a bit, showing nails in every fifth coarse; however,
there are lots of roofs - mine included - without any nails save in the
starter coarse.

My response was to your comment

What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the
tile to the menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick
well to the 90# felt assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more
than, I would guess, 5:12.

I had this picture of mudding in entire roofs (no doubt, someone has
tried it, though) and setting the tiles in it like saltillo tile in a
thickset application.

Right. It is more of a glop of mortar under the tiles.

So.... I hope Ed go something out of all of this.

You mean besides hopeless confusion?

But a really big thanks to you for finding that installation guide.

I ferreted it out when building my house (I was the general), glad you find
it useful. Much of it was - and still is - way over my head but if
necessary in the future I can always study it a bit and get a handle on what
might concern me.

On my second visit I noticed that just about every heavy hitter in the
world of roofing that makes water proofing agents and materials, metal
fasteners, adhesives, flashings, tiles, panels, etc. participated in
the construction of that manual. I has every reference to the
industry standards and manufacturer's standards (chapter and verse is
often hard to come by when you need it!) that is needed when
consulting in or investigating a tile roof.

It is now safely tucked away on my hard drive and will be used for
future reference. If you were here, I would gladly buy you a cigar!

Cuban?



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Feb 20, 2:23*pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Cuban?

Hah! Better than that!

I was thinking of a fine Nicaraguan maduro matched up to a good bonded
bourbon.

Mmmmm......

Robert

Yes, Ed is listening.If I'm not mistaken:
90# will work, has for ages.
Ice and water(rubber peal and stick) is better note to self- avoid Owens
Corning
battens nailed or screwed through underlayment
tile held down by mortar and weight of product
Thank you all, it has helped

In talking to a current roofing contractor, just around the corner the new?
thing is to not penetrate the underlayment with nails or screws but to two
part epoxy the tiles to the underlayment. I would think it would virtually
eliminate the possibility of leaking but make it impossible to replace
broken tile (I am on a golf course and yes I get shelled) I will research
more and report findings.
Again, thank you.

Ed


wrote in message
...

On Feb 20, 2:23 pm, "dadiOH" wrote:

Cuban?

Hah! Better than that!

I was thinking of a fine Nicaraguan maduro matched up to a good bonded
bourbon.

Mmmmm......

Robert

"Ed Ahern" wrote:


In talking to a current roofing contractor, just around the corner
the new? thing is to not penetrate the underlayment with nails or
screws but to two part epoxy the tiles to the underlayment. I would
think it would virtually eliminate the possibility of leaking but
make it impossible to replace broken tile (I am on a golf course and
yes I get shelled) I will research more and report findings.
Again, thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
If you work with epoxy, a 1,500 Watt heat gun is your friend.

It will soften epoxy enough to break it's bond.

Lew

Roof ventilation is needed. The roof needs cooling from the
inside. End vents help - end fan that turns on by thermostat
is great. Use only when it is needed. Top ridge vent with eave vents
is great also.

Martin - It was only 115 this last summer. I have a ridge vent now.

On 2/20/2013 2:05 AM, wrote:
On Feb 19, 4:08 pm, "Ed Ahern" wrote:
Thank you for the links, they will be helpful.

by losing I mean starting to leak, mostly in valleys and around
penetrations.
the tiles look good but the roof underlayment is failing.
I was able to look at one being stripped and it looks like a dried out
riverbed, all cracked and separated.

These were roofs that used organic felt underlayment, and it has dried
out, become brittle and started to fail. This is typical, and in the
harsh sunshine and temps of the South, this is the norm.

The underlayment fails because it dries out completely. The dried
riverbed look is caused by all solvents and oils of the asphalt
leaving the felt due to high heat over long periods, and the cotton
fiber used to manufacture the felt rotting away. If you pick up those
pieces of felt paper you would find them more fragile than a thin
potato chip.

Once the underlayment fails, the roof fails.

When I do a relay of any sort (sometimes it is just the side with the
most sun exposure on a roof that fails) I always use ice and water
shield. I prefer CertainTeed or TAMKO, but avoid Owens Corning like
the plague. It is thin, inflexible, has poor adhesion, and its lack
of thickness makes it hazardous to walk on. I don't want a tear in
the surface I am walking on if it is a 6/12 or better slope.

Ice and water shield is availble in many different forms. Get the
thickest stuff you can that is flexible, and use that for
underlayment. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation
of your specific tile that are required for your specific region to
the letter after that.

Robert

On Feb 20, 10:13*pm, Martin Eastburn
wrote:
Roof ventilation is needed. *The roof needs cooling from the
inside. *End vents help - end fan that turns on by thermostat
is great. *Use only when it is needed. *Top ridge vent with eave vents
is great also.

Martin - It was only 115 this last summer. I have a ridge vent now.

You should always check your installation guidelines for each roofing
product. Ventilation isn't just a clever move.

MOST residential roofing manufacturers will void the warranty of your
roof if you don't have the proper type and amount of ventilation
installed.

Robert