Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

Table saws safe enough? No.

Want forced flesh sensing safety standards? No.

Now often do you use a safety device? Less than 50%

Have been to the ER because of a TS accident? Just over 13%

What kind of injury have you had? 17% have had some kind of injury

Who was to blame? 90% said themselves.

How much would you pay extra for flesh sensing technology? 75% would
pay additional. More were willing to pay $500 extra than only $25
extra. 27% were willing to pay $250 or more.

Primary Trade? 774 claimed to be pro's, 14 skipped the question.
Almost half are remodelers.


https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx...8uF FtTm30_3d



Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

On 12/19/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

Table saws safe enough? No.


The above was not a question.

Should have been, Did the jury make the correct decision in awarding the
bozo $1.5 Million for injuring himself while using a TS.

NO!

On 12/19/2012 8:55 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/19/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

Table saws safe enough? No.


The above was not a question.

Should have been, Did the jury make the correct decision in awarding the
bozo $1.5 Million for injuring himself while using a TS.

NO!

No ****!

Hell, for $US1.5 Million I will legally change my name to "Bozo" ...
upon receipt of payment via legal tender.

And, for those who just can't wait to say a name change would be
superfluous or redundant, kiss my ass in advance.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/19/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

....

Who was to blame? 90% said themselves.

And, I'll bet that an independent postmortem accident analysis would
show that a very high percentage of the 8% who blamed the saw or claimed
a "complete fluke" would also find most blame owing to the operator.

....


Primary Trade? 774 claimed to be pro's, 14 skipped the question. Almost
half are remodelers.

....


Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

Still not convinced, no. How do we know who was the sample in either?

Either may/may not be at all close to an actual overall real rate; no
way to tell from either whether one should believe it an unbiased sample
or not.

--

On 12/19/12 9:30 AM, Swingman wrote:
And, for those who just can't wait to say a name change would be
superfluous or redundant, kiss my ass in advance.


crap.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/19/12 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
Primary Trade? 774 claimed to be pro's, 14 skipped the question. Almost
half are remodelers.


Every time I see one of those "professional remodelers" on all of these
home flipping/fixing TV shows, I about cringe at their horrible
technique around the saw.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Swingman" wrote

And, for those who just can't wait to say a name change would be
superfluous or redundant, kiss my ass in advance.

Hey, I had a name change. And nobody kissed my ass. Did I do something
wrong?

Leon wrote:
Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

Table saws safe enough? No.

Want forced flesh sensing safety standards? No.

Now often do you use a safety device? Less than 50%

Sorta points to the problem, eh?


Have been to the ER because of a TS accident? Just over 13%

What kind of injury have you had? 17% have had some kind of injury

That's funny. Meaningless, really...


Who was to blame? 90% said themselves.

How much would you pay extra for flesh sensing technology? 75% would
pay additional. More were willing to pay $500 extra than only $25
extra. 27% were willing to pay $250 or more.

Another no-so-informative statistic.


Primary Trade? 774 claimed to be pro's, 14 skipped the question.
Almost half are remodelers.


https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx...8uF FtTm30_3d



Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

I'm sure they are pretty close. It would not have served them to have
grossly misrepresented the statistics.

--

-Mike-

On 12/19/2012 10:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
....

I'm sure they are pretty close. It would not have served them to have
grossly misrepresented the statistics.

How so? Making exaggerated claims of heightened risk to drive sales
doesn't serve their purpose of increasing sales from the fear factor for
inexperienced and/or new, first-time buyers?

Pro's will judge whether the feel the feature is worth it based on their
own knowledge independent of such "statistics" but I'm sure it has an
effect on the general population of potential buyers at large...
otherwise, advertising in general wouldn't work.

--

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

*snip*


Now often do you use a safety device? Less than 50%

Sorta points to the problem, eh?

*snip*

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.

Btw, I was looking at a new DeWalt contractor's saw at Lowes a few weeks
ago. The blade guard assembly was easy to install and remove. I wonder
if it will actually get used more often.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 12/19/2012 12:51 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

*snip*


Now often do you use a safety device? Less than 50%

Sorta points to the problem, eh?

*snip*

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.

Btw, I was looking at a new DeWalt contractor's saw at Lowes a few weeks
ago. The blade guard assembly was easy to install and remove. I wonder
if it will actually get used more often.

Puckdropper

I use the table saw to cut mitres. It is dificult enough to get the
required accuracy on the 8 cuts without the added obstruction of the
blade guarde.

On 12/19/2012 11:51 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
....

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.
....

Of all the folks I know missing fingers, all but one lost them either
working cattle, farm equipment or oil patch. The only two that had much
in common were rings that got caught; one on a nail on a fence when the
fella' jumped down, another on a hay fork that got the ring...

I can think of roughly a dozen as I write either here in town or TN/VA
that I knew/worked with.

I have yet a full complement (w/ only a couple of significant scars and
neither of those were ww-related--the most severe losing a first finger
nail to the tusk of a boar hog trying to doctor screw worm in an ear
on--that hurt!) and have spent a considerable fraction of approaching 70
yr in one of the above either as fulltime or seriously involved if not
actual firstline employment.

--

dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 10:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...

I'm sure they are pretty close. It would not have served them to
have grossly misrepresented the statistics.

How so? Making exaggerated claims of heightened risk to drive sales
doesn't serve their purpose of increasing sales from the fear factor
for inexperienced and/or new, first-time buyers?


I don't doubt they took the statistics to the furthest level, but to grossly
exagerate things like that causes credibility problems.


Pro's will judge whether the feel the feature is worth it based on
their own knowledge independent of such "statistics" but I'm sure it
has an effect on the general population of potential buyers at
large... otherwise, advertising in general wouldn't work.

It's just a difference between grossly exagerating and getting all the
mileage they can out of existing statistics.

--

-Mike-

Keith Nuttle wrote:

I use the table saw to cut mitres. It is dificult enough to get the
required accuracy on the 8 cuts without the added obstruction of the
blade guarde.

Ugh! I pity you Keith. I used to use mine for miters as well, before I got
a power miter. Now - never. What a pain in the ass it was to keep the
stock registered on the miter while pushing through the blade - especially
at the initial point of cut. To be fair - I never spent the time or the
money to buy or build a clamp for my miter, so I brought a lot of those
problems on myself.

--

-Mike-

On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 10:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...

I'm sure they are pretty close. It would not have served them to
have grossly misrepresented the statistics.

How so? Making exaggerated claims of heightened risk to drive sales
doesn't serve their purpose of increasing sales from the fear factor
for inexperienced and/or new, first-time buyers?


I don't doubt they took the statistics to the furthest level, but to grossly
exagerate things like that causes credibility problems.
....

And the point is????

Anybody who knows enough to know any better won't be paying any
attention to that anyway. Anybody who _is_ swayed by them is highly
unlikely to even question their validity.

And, how's anybody going to prove them wrong no matter what they say?
They can always figure out some way to manufacturer a number whether it
has any bearing on anything or not.

--

"Mike Marlow" writes:
Keith Nuttle wrote:

I use the table saw to cut mitres. It is dificult enough to get the
required accuracy on the 8 cuts without the added obstruction of the
blade guarde.

Ugh! I pity you Keith. I used to use mine for miters as well, before I got
a power miter. Now - never. What a pain in the ass it was to keep the
stock registered on the miter while pushing through the blade - especially
at the initial point of cut. To be fair - I never spent the time or the
money to buy or build a clamp for my miter, so I brought a lot of those
problems on myself.

A strip of self-adhesive sandpaper on the face of the miter gauge helps
keep the stock registered.

dpb writes:
On 12/19/2012 11:51 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
...

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.
...

Of all the folks I know missing fingers, all but one lost them either
working cattle, farm equipment or oil patch. The only two that had much
in common were rings that got caught; one on a nail on a fence when the
fella' jumped down, another on a hay fork that got the ring..

I have an uncle who lost part of a finger on an old square-head jointer
in high-school in the early 50's. He's still is a fine woodworker
in his late-70's.

On 12/19/2012 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:
Interesting results from a survey from those that make a living with
their tools.

...

Who was to blame? 90% said themselves.

And, I'll bet that an independent postmortem accident analysis would
show that a very high percentage of the 8% who blamed the saw or claimed
a "complete fluke" would also find most blame owing to the operator.

...


Primary Trade? 774 claimed to be pro's, 14 skipped the question. Almost
half are remodelers.

...


Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

Still not convinced, no. How do we know who was the sample in either?

Either may/may not be at all close to an actual overall real rate; no
way to tell from either whether one should believe it an unbiased sample
or not.

--


Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade
magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER
plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the
door was common place, pretty much daily.

On 12/19/2012 2:21 PM, Leon wrote:
....

Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade
magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER
plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the
door was common place, pretty much daily.

"Suspicious" has nothing to do with it. It's simply a case of survey
data is only as valid as the basis under which it is taken and any
conclusions drawn from are again only valid when they are related to the
underlying population from which they're supposed to be representative
in a known fashion.

The subject survey results are the sample estimate of the population
that responded to the survey but what does that population have to do w/
any other? There's no way to know.

Hence, there's no way to use that data to make any projection on
anything but that particular sample of roughly 800 participants. It
certainly doesn't do anything to help in estimating some number of
incidents in some larger population at large.

--

On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

Pro's will judge whether the feel the feature is worth it based on
their own knowledge independent of such "statistics" but I'm sure it
has an effect on the general population of potential buyers at
large... otherwise, advertising in general wouldn't work.

It's just a difference between grossly exagerating and getting all the
mileage they can out of existing statistics.

I was intending to add that in addition to the actual safety feature
itself (and again I have no qualms that it is _a_good_thing_ (tm) as a
general capability) many professionals may well choose SS simply as a
liability mitigation step whether they personally care or not. Sad that
business has come to that, but in today's environment a small business
has to be terribly concerned about such.

And, the biggest problem w/ the SS "statistics" is that they don't
provide any reference for their claims; they're just there in the FUD
realm of the same ilk as negative campaign ads or the "SS is going away"
nonsense of the "geezers of America PAC" scam bunch to keep the
blue-hairs in FL in line.

--

On 12/19/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 11:51 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
...

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.
...

Of all the folks I know missing fingers, all but one lost them either
working cattle, farm equipment or oil patch. The only two that had much
in common were rings that got caught; one on a nail on a fence when the
fella' jumped down, another on a hay fork that got the ring...

I can think of roughly a dozen as I write either here in town or TN/VA
that I knew/worked with.

I have yet a full complement (w/ only a couple of significant scars and
neither of those were ww-related--the most severe losing a first finger
nail to the tusk of a boar hog trying to doctor screw worm in an ear
on--that hurt!) and have spent a considerable fraction of approaching 70
yr in one of the above either as fulltime or seriously involved if not
actual firstline employment.

--
SWMBO's uncle and grandfather were missing a few digits each. Don't let
a sow with piglets get near your pinkies!

On 12/19/2012 2:46 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 12/19/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I have yet a full complement (w/ only a couple of significant scars and
neither of those were ww-related--the most severe losing a first finger
nail to the tusk of a boar hog trying to doctor screw worm in an ear
on--that hurt!) ....
....

SWMBO's uncle and grandfather were missing a few digits each. Don't let
a sow with piglets get near your pinkies!

Generally they got the piggies before the pinkies...the ill-advised
movement by the activists to force the elimination of farrowing crates
will certainly increase that if it succeeds in large volume.

--

dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 10:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
...

I'm sure they are pretty close. It would not have served them to
have grossly misrepresented the statistics.

How so? Making exaggerated claims of heightened risk to drive sales
doesn't serve their purpose of increasing sales from the fear factor
for inexperienced and/or new, first-time buyers?


I don't doubt they took the statistics to the furthest level, but to
grossly exagerate things like that causes credibility problems.
...

And the point is????

Anybody who knows enough to know any better won't be paying any
attention to that anyway. Anybody who _is_ swayed by them is highly
unlikely to even question their validity.

That's true but one's competitors and detractors swoop down on those
credibility points with blood in their eyes.


And, how's anybody going to prove them wrong no matter what they say?
They can always figure out some way to manufacturer a number whether
it has any bearing on anything or not.

It isn't a matter of proof. It's a matter of credibility which is a much
more subjective posession.

--

-Mike-

dpb wrote:


I was intending to add that in addition to the actual safety feature
itself (and again I have no qualms that it is _a_good_thing_ (tm) as a
general capability) many professionals may well choose SS simply as a
liability mitigation step whether they personally care or not. Sad
that business has come to that, but in today's environment a small
business has to be terribly concerned about such.

And, the biggest problem w/ the SS "statistics" is that they don't
provide any reference for their claims; they're just there in the FUD
realm of the same ilk as negative campaign ads or the "SS is going
away" nonsense of the "geezers of America PAC" scam bunch to keep the
blue-hairs in FL in line.

Agreed on both points.

--

-Mike-

dpb writes:
On 12/19/2012 2:21 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade
magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER
plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the
door was common place, pretty much daily.

"Suspicious" has nothing to do with it. It's simply a case of survey
data is only as valid as the basis under which it is taken and any
conclusions drawn from are again only valid when they are related to the
underlying population from which they're supposed to be representative
in a known fashion.

The subject survey results are the sample estimate of the population
that responded to the survey but what does that population have to do w/
any other? There's no way to know.

Hence, there's no way to use that data to make any projection on
anything but that particular sample of roughly 800 participants. It
certainly doesn't do anything to help in estimating some number of
incidents in some larger population at large.

Indeed. And basing one's opinion on a single anecdotal piece of evidence
from one single plastic surgeon seems to be unwise.

Injury data from the CPSC for the USA in 2009:

Ladder/Stool falls: 246,733
Lawnmower accidents: 86,000
All power tools: 83,204
Paints/Chemicals: 53,907
Chain Saw: 26,593

There are 5,000 US Hospitals with emergency departments.

That averages out to 17 power tool accidents per year, per hospital.

To break it out further, in 2011, there were 694 table saw accidents reported to the
CPSC NEISS, which extrapolates to the historical estimate of 32,251
cases in 2011. That averages out to 6 table saw accidents per year
per hospital.

https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/NEISSQuery/home.aspx

Table saw is product code 841

both of these are a far cry from Leon's anecdotal quote:

"And, my ER plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that
a TS accident coming in the door was common place, pretty much daily."

In looking at the case file for 2009 (783 cases), the majority seem to be
finger lacerations and amputated fingertips, although there are a couple
of crushed fingers and a few kickback injuries, e.g.:

PT STATES SHE WAS WORKING W/A TABLE SAW AND A BLOCK BLEW BACK INTO HER FACE.
DX. EYE INJ R HYPHEMA CONT, SCRAPES AND ABRAS.

PT WAS USING A POWER TABLE SAW AND A PIECE OF WOOD KICKED BACK SUSTAINED
A LACERATION TO LOWER LEG

TABLE SAW JUMPED AND CRUSHED AND LAC FINGER TIP

Interestingly, the average patient was 54 years old. I suspect
the median is higher given the distribution of the ages.

On 12/19/2012 3:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

Anybody who knows enough to know any better won't be paying any
attention to that anyway. Anybody who _is_ swayed by them is highly
unlikely to even question their validity.

That's true but one's competitors and detractors swoop down on those
credibility points with blood in their eyes.
....

Who can do anything that hurts 'em whatever they say, though? They're
the only game in town w/ the product that relies on the issue as a sales
tactic (that I'm aware of anyway).

But, as was posted upthread by Scott, the NEISS database has numbers in
the realm of 30,000/annum. Dividing that out does give roughly the
numbers to justify the time clock for _any_ accident whatever regardless
of the severity. I'm surprised it's that high, but whatever...it does
seem that a 5-6X over the number of actual sampled cases would lead to a
much higher CV than 0.1 but if the sampling basis is weighted well
enough it is possible. I've no idea what sort of verifications have
been done on these and in the background pages that isn't mentioned and
I don't have the time nor inclination to go digging further.

As I've said before, imo it's just tacky, but it's SS's claim to fame so
they've got to do what they can to justify the price differential.

--

On 12/19/2012 2:52 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"Mike Marlow" writes:
Keith Nuttle wrote:

I use the table saw to cut mitres. It is dificult enough to get the
required accuracy on the 8 cuts without the added obstruction of the
blade guarde.

Ugh! I pity you Keith. I used to use mine for miters as well, before I got
a power miter. Now - never. What a pain in the ass it was to keep the
stock registered on the miter while pushing through the blade - especially
at the initial point of cut. To be fair - I never spent the time or the
money to buy or build a clamp for my miter, so I brought a lot of those
problems on myself.

A strip of self-adhesive sandpaper on the face of the miter gauge helps
keep the stock registered.

I use staples to keep things aligned. Rough cut the sides of the
frame, and then staple the opposite sides, and make shave cuts to the
final length. I also use a fixed 90 degree miter gauge. Get decent
precision if I say so myself.

On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:51:58 AM UTC-6, Puckdropper wrote:
Btw, I was looking at a new DeWalt contractor's saw at Lowes a few weeks
ago. The blade guard assembly was easy to install and remove. I wonder
if it will actually get used more often.

I suspect it will get used more. My table saw has a Delta UniGuard on it. This is the aftermarket guard that puts a separate plastic container above the blade and a separate splitter/anit kickback fingers behind the blade. It is very easy to use. Never gets in the way. I'm guessing if all table saws came with this slightly expensive safety device, then it would get used all the time.

"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote

I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the
effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while
100% of people with 9 fingers do.

Btw, I was looking at a new DeWalt contractor's saw at Lowes a few weeks
ago. The blade guard assembly was easy to install and remove. I wonder
if it will actually get used more often.

While I was teaching carpentry, I HAD to use a blade guard with my students.
I actually got used to it after a couple years. There is very little that
can not be easily done with it in place, once you learn how.
--
Jim in NC

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:51:47 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx...8uF FtTm30_3d

Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

*Very Interesting*. Of particular note was the question entitled,
"I would not want this feature, even if it was free" which was 24%.
That says quite a lot.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:21:06 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade
magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER
plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the
door was common place, pretty much daily.

I may have just missed seeing them, but one thing I haven't seen, but
something I think SawStop should be using in their advertising, are
doctors and surgeons testifying about the number of table saw injuries
that come in for help.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:46:14 -0700, Doug Winterburn
SWMBO's uncle and grandfather were missing a few digits each. Don't let
a sow with piglets get near your pinkies!

Considering that pigs are omnivorous, I wouldn't be surprised if they
went after one's digits all the time.

On 12/20/2012 4:40 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:21:06 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade
magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER
plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the
door was common place, pretty much daily.

I may have just missed seeing them, but one thing I haven't seen, but
something I think SawStop should be using in their advertising, are
doctors and surgeons testifying about the number of table saw injuries
that come in for help.


At the rate they are seeing table saw injuries, it may be hard to find one.

On 12/20/2012 3:33 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:51:47 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx...8uF FtTm30_3d

Seems that the number of injuries that result in a trip to the ER that
SawStop claims may be closer to the truth than some believe.

*Very Interesting*. Of particular note was the question entitled,
"I would not want this feature, even if it was free" which was 24%.
That says quite a lot.



Yeah, as Ron White says, you can't fix stupid. ;~)

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 16:14:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Yeah, as Ron White says, you can't fix stupid. ;~)

Stupid, maybe. Stubborn as a tree stump, definitely.

On 12/20/2012 3:40 PM, Dave wrote:

I may have just missed seeing them, but one thing I haven't seen, but
something I think SawStop should be using in their advertising, are
doctors and surgeons testifying about the number of table saw injuries
that come in for help.

Yeah, brings back memories ... "Eight out of ten Doctors prefer Camels"


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)