On 11/23/2012 1:44 PM, Bill wrote:
CW wrote:
Snip


====================================


Make it easy on yourself. Get a pocket hole jig.

I can't argue with your logic. Paraphrasing a remark I read recently in
the introduction of a book on cabinetry and framework: There is an
extensive range of technique and devotion with which one may complete a
joint... And that was written long before Kreg was created.




The Kreg is simply a jig that is marketed to the common woodworker so
that he may recreate a very long accepted practice of using pocket holes.

Swingman wrote:
snip ... it was not until I ran across an article in the Sep/Oct 1999
issue
of "Fine Wood Working" magazine, by Will Neptune, entitled "Sideboard
Strategies", whereby the author, a teacher at a respected woodworking
school in Boston, taught/proposed a four part, casework construction
method that was a bit unusual for traditional sideboard construction -
basically a dovetailed box, turned on its side, with legs attached to
the box, that I found a solution I thought I could live with.

In a nutshell, the basic principle of this particular casework
construction method is:

"If a case part joins another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part
meets along another's length, use multiple through tenons."

I finished reading Will Neptune's article last night. I will make a
short list of what I gleaned from it later, but it should definitely
improve my game! I'll be watching for other of his publications (I
noticed he co-authored a book, "Introduction to Fine Woodworking".

He repeated what you quoted at least 3 times: "If a case part joins
another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part meets along another's
length, use multiple through tenons." : )

Okay (don't push..LOL), here are the highlights of what I gleaned:

--The tenons from the inserts going through the top can help prevent
sagging (at least he says so, and it's believable).

--Extra wood is not a bad thing. For instance consider screwing the top
to the (solid) "box". Build up extra wood on the sides (inside),
between the legs to that there is a nice surface to support the edge of
a drawer. I'm not planning on using drawers but it's still a nice idea.

--The notion of a "cleat" to support the panels in the back was a new
notion to me.

--He said he generally uses stops on his cabinet doors. That led me to
try to figure out what he was talking about and to spend my lunch hour
examining hinges. I'll have to decide whether I'll be using a face frame
or not. I'm due for another SU session.

Next, I can take a careful look at the links below.

Bill




Since then I have used this basic principle, with some occasional
modifications, in quite a few pieces of casework, both furniture and
kitchen cabinets.

Careful studying the photos in the links below should give you an idea
of how to use this principle to mitigate sag in your casework:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects13.htm

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...1917253 74850


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...2144547 81186


Resulting in:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 36822986818


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6579392 12162


Good luck, and let me know if I can answer any questions.

(If you can get a copy of the above mentioned article, do so ... it
covers using this principle in many more styles than what I show above)

Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
snip ... it was not until I ran across an article in the Sep/Oct 1999
issue
of "Fine Wood Working" magazine, by Will Neptune, entitled "Sideboard
Strategies", whereby the author, a teacher at a respected woodworking
school in Boston, taught/proposed a four part, casework construction
method that was a bit unusual for traditional sideboard construction -
basically a dovetailed box, turned on its side, with legs attached to
the box, that I found a solution I thought I could live with.

In a nutshell, the basic principle of this particular casework
construction method is:

"If a case part joins another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part
meets along another's length, use multiple through tenons."

I finished reading Will Neptune's article last night. I will make a
short list of what I gleaned from it later, but it should definitely
improve my game! I'll be watching for other of his publications (I
noticed he co-authored a book, "Introduction to Fine Woodworking".

He repeated what you quoted at least 3 times: "If a case part joins
another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part meets along another's
length, use multiple through tenons." : )

Okay (don't push..LOL), here are the highlights of what I gleaned:

Also, after reading the article, I realized my expectation of what
"biscuit joinery" could do for me were probably inflated. In other
words, Biscuits are not tenons...

I found the Japanese (zero-set) dowel saw at Harbor Freight today, but
they wouldn't accept their recently-expired coupon. It will yield less
than $2 savings, but it's the principle of the thing! The saw is
remarkably flexible--much more-so than the cashier! : )


--The tenons from the inserts going through the top can help prevent
sagging (at least he says so, and it's believable).

--Extra wood is not a bad thing. For instance consider screwing the top
to the (solid) "box". Build up extra wood on the sides (inside),
between the legs to that there is a nice surface to support the edge of
a drawer. I'm not planning on using drawers but it's still a nice idea.

--The notion of a "cleat" to support the panels in the back was a new
notion to me.

--He said he generally uses stops on his cabinet doors. That led me to
try to figure out what he was talking about and to spend my lunch hour
examining hinges. I'll have to decide whether I'll be using a face frame
or not. I'm due for another SU session.

Next, I can take a careful look at the links below.

Bill




Since then I have used this basic principle, with some occasional
modifications, in quite a few pieces of casework, both furniture and
kitchen cabinets.

Careful studying the photos in the links below should give you an idea
of how to use this principle to mitigate sag in your casework:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects13.htm

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...1917253 74850



https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...2144547 81186



Resulting in:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 36822986818



https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6579392 12162



Good luck, and let me know if I can answer any questions.

(If you can get a copy of the above mentioned article, do so ... it
covers using this principle in many more styles than what I show above)

Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Since then I have used this basic principle, with some occasional
modifications, in quite a few pieces of casework, both furniture and
kitchen cabinets.

Careful studying the photos in the links below should give you an idea
of how to use this principle to mitigate sag in your casework:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects13.htm

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...1917253 74850



https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...2144547 81186



Resulting in:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 36822986818



https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...6579392 12162



Good luck, and let me know if I can answer any questions.


After looking at all of your pictures, it makes me sort of ashamed I
only have one little TV-Stand to worry about so far! : )

In-set cabinet doors would be a nice touch--though it appears the
tolerances for fitting them are quite small!

The article emphasized it would really really look crappy if the
vertical inserts are not parallel. It also emphasized the need for a
very good fit of the inserts into the dado's, so that the top and bottom
stay parallel. So even if I forget everything I learned in the article,
I still got a good lesson in craftmanship!

Even as I write, this thing is coming together. I think that this job
calls for a TS to easily meet the requirements (of parallel vertical
inserts).

Bill

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:41:24 -0500, Bill wrote:

Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
snip ... it was not until I ran across an article in the Sep/Oct 1999
issue
of "Fine Wood Working" magazine, by Will Neptune, entitled "Sideboard
Strategies", whereby the author, a teacher at a respected woodworking
school in Boston, taught/proposed a four part, casework construction
method that was a bit unusual for traditional sideboard construction -
basically a dovetailed box, turned on its side, with legs attached to
the box, that I found a solution I thought I could live with.

In a nutshell, the basic principle of this particular casework
construction method is:

"If a case part joins another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part
meets along another's length, use multiple through tenons."

I finished reading Will Neptune's article last night. I will make a
short list of what I gleaned from it later, but it should definitely
improve my game! I'll be watching for other of his publications (I
noticed he co-authored a book, "Introduction to Fine Woodworking".

He repeated what you quoted at least 3 times: "If a case part joins
another at a corner, dovetail it; if one part meets along another's
length, use multiple through tenons." : )

Okay (don't push..LOL), here are the highlights of what I gleaned:

Also, after reading the article, I realized my expectation of what
"biscuit joinery" could do for me were probably inflated. In other
words, Biscuits are not tenons...

I found the Japanese (zero-set) dowel saw at Harbor Freight today, but
they wouldn't accept their recently-expired coupon. It will yield less
than $2 savings, but it's the principle of the thing! The saw is
remarkably flexible--much more-so than the cashier! : )

How do you know? You never met her asking price. evil grinne

--
Good ideas alter the power balance in relationships, that is why
good ideas are always initially resisted. Good ideas come with a
heavy burden. Which is why so few people have them. So few people
can handle it.
-- Hugh Macleod

On 11/27/2012 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:

In-set cabinet doors would be a nice touch--though it appears the
tolerances for fitting them are quite small!

Generally 1/16 to 3/32. That is why 'square' is so important in cabinet
making.

Inset doors and drawers are not that difficult as long as the casework
is square, and remains that way, does not sag/rack, over time.

The article emphasized it would really really look crappy if the
vertical inserts are not parallel. It also emphasized the need for a
very good fit of the inserts into the dado's, so that the top and bottom
stay parallel. So even if I forget everything I learned in the article,
I still got a good lesson in craftmanship!

Preach mode

Once again, the holy grail is "square" ... as a cabinetmaker, live, or
die by it.

One way to insure square is to batch cut every part with the same
settings on the machine and, likewise batch cut all like dadoes and
grooves, at the same time with the same, undisturbed, machine setup.

As long as your parts are dimensioned properly, batch cutting/routing
goes a long way toward obtaining square ... _stock thickness is
extremely important, because with sheet goods, thickness is not
necessarily the same from one lot/stack of plywood to the next_ .

In short, _batch cut_ all like project parts, and elements
(dadoes/grooves, etc) of like size and placement, before
disturbing/moving any machine setup, fence, depth, etc.

/Preach mode


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 11/27/2012 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:

In-set cabinet doors would be a nice touch--though it appears the
tolerances for fitting them are quite small!

Generally 1/16 to 3/32. That is why 'square' is so important in cabinet
making.

Inset doors and drawers are not that difficult as long as the casework
is square, and remains that way, does not sag/rack, over time.

The article emphasized it would really really look crappy if the
vertical inserts are not parallel. It also emphasized the need for a
very good fit of the inserts into the dado's, so that the top and bottom
stay parallel. So even if I forget everything I learned in the article,
I still got a good lesson in craftmanship!

Preach mode

Once again, the holy grail is "square" ... as a cabinetmaker, live, or
die by it.

One way to insure square is to batch cut every part with the same
settings on the machine and, likewise batch cut all like dadoes and
grooves, at the same time with the same, undisturbed, machine setup.

As long as your parts are dimensioned properly, batch cutting/routing
goes a long way toward obtaining square ... _stock thickness is
extremely important, because with sheet goods, thickness is not
necessarily the same from one lot/stack of plywood to the next_ .

In short, _batch cut_ all like project parts, and elements
(dadoes/grooves, etc) of like size and placement, before
disturbing/moving any machine setup, fence, depth, etc.

/Preach mode

I believe everything you said. Just choosing my workbench project as an
example, some of the 4by4 stuff I used for the legs was a bit
warped/twisted. While I am appreciating the significance of "square",
I don't take it for granted (anymore)! Hopefully, my plywood will be
flat, but I doubt I should count on it. So in a nutshell, "square" has
not been a friend of mine, I hardly ever see her, but I'll keep working
on that. "Square" is beginning to remind me of the sirens/mermaids
that were said to lure the captains of their ships to a shipwreck! ; )

On 11/28/2012 10:09 AM, Bill wrote:

So in a nutshell, "square" has not been a friend of mine, I hardly ever
see her, but I'll keep working on that. "Square" is beginning to
remind me of the sirens/mermaids that were said to lure the captains of
their ships to a shipwreck! ; )

Batch cut, to the stick, parts ... as we speak:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...01833900404594

and that's not counting the sixteen, batch cut/routed legs ...

And there is still no guarantee that the bar stools will sit square
without a good deal more futzing doing assembly/glue-up

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 11/27/2012 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
In-set cabinet doors would be a nice touch--though it appears the
tolerances for fitting them are quite small!

Here's a nice little "EZ" method/trick, a la Sam Maloof and his
"Hollywood style", for taking most of the pain out of doing a bunch of
inset doors ... simply round over the door edges.

Doing so makes any imprecision in the gap disappear.

This works particularly well when you use contrasting woods for the face
frame and the inset doors, thusly:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...28801557670066

Keep that one in your saddle bags, highly useful.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 11/27/2012 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
In-set cabinet doors would be a nice touch--though it appears the
tolerances for fitting them are quite small!

Here's a nice little "EZ" method/trick, a la Sam Maloof and his
"Hollywood style", for taking most of the pain out of doing a bunch of
inset doors ... simply round over the door edges.

Doing so makes any imprecision in the gap disappear.

This works particularly well when you use contrasting woods for the face
frame and the inset doors, thusly:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...28801557670066


Keep that one in your saddle bags, highly useful.


Yes, I see that. TYVM!

I assume that you used biscuits at the corners where the rails and
stiles meet? Is that 3/4" plywood (in the "panel" of the door)? Not too
heavy, huh?

I picked up my Milwaukee jigsaw today (I had to order it).

I need to do more designing (and I may use your "roundover trick" on the
edges of the doors)! I was using my tape measure last night to help
measuring my imaginary tv stand along with the TV that will rest on it.
It's a good thing I learned about the imaginary numbers! ; )