On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in :

This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
saw... possibly less so.

I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback (if
any) is directed *away* from the operator....

The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
towards the operator. The workpiece if does somehow get above the fence
will go away from the operator, true, but the carriage may well head the
other way.

Again, this isn't inherently any more dangerous than the TS in that if
you don't have flesh in front of it, it ain't jumpin' off the rail to
come get you but you can't be careless any more than you can be w/ a TS
(or bandsaw or ...)

It is, however, different and the relative few around any longer
contributes only that much more to the urban lore I think...

--

On 10/15/12 5:51 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/15/2012 5:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/12 5:24 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in
:

This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any
other
saw... possibly less so.

I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on
rails, and kickback (if
any) is directed *away* from the operator.

Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be
prevented.


You basically repeated what I wrote. :-p




Yeah but I as addressing Doug's comment about the wood being stationary
and kickback, if any, being away from the operator. Not true when
ripping, just the opposite in fact.

I think most people think of the RAS as only being useful as cross cut
machine. Alternatively many think of a TS as only a ripping machine.

I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was no
more dangerous than the table saw. It has a splitter and anti-kickback
teeth. I don't think the older designs had these, which might explain a
couple off the reasons for the recall.

Most RAS I see on Craigslist are missing limbs waiting to happen. No
guard at all, no fence, certainly no splitter or teeth. Just a big,
open, spinning saw blade on a motor.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
towards the operator.

The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
motor would stall.
If there is a RAS out there that is flimsy enough to allow the blade to
lift the arm up, I could see it happening, but not likely. I have seen
one or two in ads that looked pretty darn flimsy, but I would guess
something of such poor quality would also have a weak motor which would
probably stall.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
in SoCal
has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
dangerous
the beast can be.

The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
length
before proceding with finishing blanks to size.

----------------------------------------------------
For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.

The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
rough
stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
size
should tell you something.

BTW, they have at least 10, 10" table saws including Unisaw, General
and
PM 66.

All of these saws were swapped out for Saw Stop units 2 years ago.

As you might expect, safety is of prime concern.

The college has deep pockets and wants to keep them full of cash,
not lawsuits.

IMHO, the RAS is a beast that has outlived it's usefulness.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
in SoCal has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
dangerous the beast can be.

The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
length before proceding with finishing blanks to size.

----------------------------------------------------
For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.

The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
rough stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
size should tell you something.

....

A) I really don't believe the reason given above has much at all to do
w/ it still being there.

B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less length
of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large stock than in
the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't seem hard to imagine.

It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by that,
either.

C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes it
may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part with it.
It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when needed and
nothing else takes its place.

--

On 10/15/2012 7:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
towards the operator.

The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
motor would stall.
....

You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens.

--

"Steve Barker" wrote


where?

Never mind. I called today, and they will be sending me the box to ship the
carcass back, and send me the check for $100.

Steve

" Lew Hodgett" wrote:

The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross
cutting rough stock to rough length as the first step to size rough
cut stock to size should tell you something.
----------------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:

A) I really don't believe the reason given above has much at all to
do w/ it still being there.
-----------------------------------------
OK.
------------------------------------------

B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less
length of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large
stock than in the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't
seem hard to imagine.
--------------------------------------------
ALL projects start with the development of a rough stock list.

The ONLY function of the RAS is to cross cut rough stock to length.
------------------------------------------
It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by
that, either.
----------------------------------------
I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
----------------------------------------------------------
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
In a modern facility such as the one WMT provides, that RAS stands
out as one of the "Last of the Mohicans".

It provides no function that can't be accomplished by other means.

Lew

-MIKE- wrote:
I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was
no more dangerous than the table saw.

I ripped a lot with mine. There are two sort of "gotchas" that one needs to
consider...

1. The motor unit is always more or less in the way

2. More importantly, unlike a table saw, the blade is above the workpiece.
If it rises for any reason - chip on the table, tilt, whatever - the blade
can and will easily catch it and that can create considerable havoc if the
kickback pawls are not properly set. Particularly true with thin stock.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:26:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/15/2012 7:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 10/15/12 6:06 PM, dpb wrote:
The significant difference in a RAS crosscutting is that one is
climb-cutting so it is possible for the saw to want to accelerate
towards the operator.

The likely outcome is that the teeth would dig into the wood and the
motor would stall.
...

You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens.

Company I work for has as many as a dozen of the 16" and 20"
RAS, some originals and some not.

They can be choked down on 4x12 green hardwood timbers, but it
isn't a given on anything smaller, and it is an event to remember.

For the record, it would be difficult to find anything to replace these
saws for the work we do and injuries are rare to nonexistant.

They can and are used safely, same as any other machine,
keep your parts out of the path of its parts.

basilisk

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 10/15/2012 5:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in :

This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
saw... possibly less so.

I agree completely. The wood is stationary, the saw carriage runs on rails, and kickback
(if
any) is directed *away* from the operator.

Assuming that you only cross cut. I built a lot of furniture with one
and ripped a lot of wood with one. You can get kick back/so to speak in
that operation. But with proper procedure and set up that can be prevented.

Well, yes, I guess I should have specified that I was talking only about cross-cutting.

Rip cuts on a RAS pose some risk of kickback, and that is of course directed at the
operator.

basilisk wrote in news:1u1cm605hj71i.1i8raxg2e3kup$.dlg@
40tude.net:

keep your parts out of the path of its parts.

The entire body of woodshop safety practices, neatly summarized in ten words.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:18:07 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here
in SoCal
has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how
dangerous
the beast can be.

The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough
length
before proceding with finishing blanks to size.

----------------------------------------------------
For the record, it's a 12" unit that has a many years on it.

The fact they only have one unit and it is restricted to cross cutting
rough
stock to rough length as the first step to size rough cut stock to
size
should tell you something.

BTW, they have at least 10, 10" table saws including Unisaw, General
and
PM 66.

All of these saws were swapped out for Saw Stop units 2 years ago.

As you might expect, safety is of prime concern.

The college has deep pockets and wants to keep them full of cash,
not lawsuits.

IMHO, the RAS is a beast that has outlived it's usefulness.

Lew




All give you about 50% on that answer. I've been using one since the
late 70's. I'll agree with use as far as ripping boards, I did it
once and that was time to buy a tablesaw. You can mount a chuck on it
and use it for horizontal drilling or put a router bit in and use it
on soft wood as a pin router. Only 3450 RPM. Great for Dado's and
many other cuts. Also there are molding heads available. Since I
got the unisaw with the sliding table uses have diminished but as long
as I've got the floor space every now and then it's handy,

Mike M

On 10/16/2012 2:19 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
....


B) It tells me they understand where it excels and have far less
length of time spent in starting new projects from rough, large
stock than in the later fabrication stages. That somehow doesn't
seem hard to imagine.
--------------------------------------------
ALL projects start with the development of a rough stock list.

Indeed, but "far less length of time [is] spent" roughing out than is
required in the rest of the milling operations. Ergo, it doesn't take
nearly as many machines to provide the needed capacity.

It doesn't follow that it is any less important a portion of the work,
however, only that that portion can be accomplished in a (relatively)
short span.


The ONLY function of the RAS is to cross cut rough stock to length.
------------------------------------------
It also indicates they don't do a lot of really large,
architectural-style or framing work. Somehow I'm not surprised by
that, either.
----------------------------------------
I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.

Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and wider
and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as little
application as the RAS does now.

----------------------------------------------------------
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
In a modern facility such as the one WMT provides, that RAS stands
out as one of the "Last of the Mohicans".

It provides no function that can't be accomplished by other means.

See above--for large material that is essentially impossible to move
across a TS it is invaluable as well as for the routine crosscut.

Once one gets something down to a manageable size, then the TS can
handle it, certainly.

Or, of course, if one is comfortable w/ the RAS, it can do what the TS
can w/ very few exceptions and some things that conversely cannot be
done at all conveniently w/ a TS. OTOH, most folks now w/ the advent of
the large router do many of those that way or large shops have other
dedicated machines...

Again, if you don't like it, fine...I'll be retaining mine anyways.

--

On 10/16/12 6:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
I think very few people rip with it. I've ripped with mine and it was
no more dangerous than the table saw.

I ripped a lot with mine. There are two sort of "gotchas" that one needs to
consider...

1. The motor unit is always more or less in the way

2. More importantly, unlike a table saw, the blade is above the workpiece.
If it rises for any reason - chip on the table, tilt, whatever - the blade
can and will easily catch it and that can create considerable havoc if the
kickback pawls are not properly set. Particularly true with thin stock.


1st... as I wrote in my first post in this thread... there is always,
with any tool, the caveat of being "properly set."

2nd... I agree that it's not the tool for ripping. It's also not the
tool for sanding, or drilling, and grinding, etc., even though it can do
all those things.
I agree with those calling it a cut-off saw. It should be treated that
way. Even thought it can do those other things, it's not the best, or
even 2nd best, tool for those jobs.

For me, it's in the same category as a shopsmith. A shopsmith can do all
the things it does, but not nearly as well as individual tools. It may
actually do one thing very well (like a RAS), but the other things
suffer. It takes longer to convert the thing to another task than it
would to move to a different tool. From the prices I've seen for new
shopsmiths, one could get individual tools for separate tasks.

For 11 years I worked in the same building that houses a public
broadcasting station. The studio's set master had a shopsmith. I would
go up there and watch him take forever to get lumber and sheet goods
from rough sizes, through the cut-list, into finished pieces, ready for
assembly.
Every year, after the new budgets rolled around, I would go up to his
shop and see another power tool. First a CMS, then a table saw, then a
jointer, then a drill press, then a router, etc, etc, etc. At the end of
my 11 years, the shopsmith was collecting dust and he had a shop full of
individual tools. I think he still used to the shopsmith as a lathe for
occasional turning.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Lew Hodgett wrote:

I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
---------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:

Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and
wider and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as
little application as the RAS does now.
----------------------------------------------------------
Working with that size stock on a production basis would be done with
power feed equipment, not manual feed as provided with a RAS.

For the home hobbyist, there are other ways including but not limited
to a band saw.
----------------------------------------------------------
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
Sentimental value is tough to define.

As an add on piece of equipment for the typical hobbyist or even
a small one man shop, a RAS just doesn't cut it IMHO.


Lew

On 10/16/2012 11:50 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

I guess "Large" is open to some interpretation.
---------------------------------------------
"dpb" wrote:

Indeed, but if were handling 12-, 16-quarter material of 8" and
wider and 10-plus feet long as a piece of work, the TS would find as
little application as the RAS does now.
----------------------------------------------------------
Working with that size stock on a production basis would be done with
power feed equipment, not manual feed as provided with a RAS.

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen both and I have had power feeder on mine on
occasion ripping heavy stock...and can still move it form the shaper
over there if the need arose.

For the home hobbyist, there are other ways including but not limited
to a band saw.

Well, you weren't talking home hobbyist above, certainly...and how do
you propose moving the material through the bandsaw any better than
across a TS and what's the odds the home hobbyist has the BS that could
handle it, anyway?

----------------------------------------------------------
C) You're entitled to your opinion of course and for your purposes
it may be right. I've an almost ancient 16" and I'll never part
with it. It again isn't the most used tool but it's invaluable when
needed and nothing else takes its place.
---------------------------------------
Sentimental value is tough to define.

Nonsense. It has a definite advantage and does things 10" TS simply
can't hack (the blade depth won't even do a standard 4x4, for heaven's
sake w/o flipping the stock) not to mention again trying to cross cut
long stock on a TS is far more dangerous and aggravating than a RAS ever
thought of being.

As an add on piece of equipment for the typical hobbyist or even
a small one man shop, a RAS just doesn't cut it IMHO.

Again, speak for yourself. IM(NS)HO if one deals w/ sizable stuff on
any frequency at all and has the room it's well worth having around. As
for the shop, it all depends on the type of work a shop does routinely.

And, for the individual, it's always the possibility as the one-piece
does it all tool for a constrained size/budget. As at least one other
noted here, that's the way I began lo! those many years ago and did
quite a lot of work (some even pretty respectable after a few years )
with it long before ever had a TS. The TS was the one that I could do
without.

It helps, of course, to have the room for the 16" behemoth but there's
still the old DeWalt 10" of Dad's around that could handle quite a lot
of the size of thing the normal wooddorker would expect to see very
nicely...I could part with it but I'll never part w/ the large one.

--

On 10/16/2012 7:11 AM, basilisk wrote:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:26:46 -0500, dpb wrote:
....


You've not been around an Original Saw Company 16" or the equivalent,
then...it _may_ stall but I'll guar-on-tee you'll pucker a bunch and not
forget it if (or, more accurately, when) it happens.

Company I work for has as many as a dozen of the 16" and 20"
RAS, some originals and some not.

They can be choked down on 4x12 green hardwood timbers, but it
isn't a given on anything smaller, and it is an event to remember.

For the record, it would be difficult to find anything to replace these
saws for the work we do and injuries are rare to nonexistant.

They can and are used safely, same as any other machine,
keep your parts out of the path of its parts.

+1 on 3 points each...

--

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...

"Steve B" wrote:

Let me ask a noobie question.

I just inherited a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw. I already have a DeWalt
compound miter.

I am kinda afraid of the way the thing looks. Like it could grab the
wood and shoot in a direction.

Could someone give me a short course on how they work, what they are good
for, why they are better than another type of saw for that kind of work,
and safety concerns?

Just deciding whether or not I need it before parting with it or cleaning
it up and making a good base.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The Wood Manufacturing Technology program at Cerritos College here in
SoCal
has an old radial arm saw that they keep around just to show how dangerous
the beast can be.

The only thing they use it for is to cross cut rough stock to rough length
before proceding with finishing blanks to size.

IMHO, I'd cut it up and throw it in the dump, before I hurt myself.

Flame suit on

If the user intends to rip with it, I agree on getting rid of it. If
cross cutting and mitering is the only use, it is worth its weight to keep
around.
--
Jim in NC

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
On 10/15/12 6:11 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Roy wrote:

The problem is that a RAS will come to you (yes, I have one, too).

I was taught to pull the cutter head forward, insert and align the
board, turn on the saw, then PUSH the saw to make the cut. It will
never try to climb over the board to get you if you make your cuts
that way, just remember to keep your pinkies out of the way. Having
said that, I must admit I don't do this _every_ time, and I have at
least 5 degrees negative hook on my blade to help cut down on the
climb issue in those instances. Negative hook makes a big distance
in how aggressive the cutter head can be if you cut on the pull
stroke.

Unless your blade is rotating opposite to everyone elses, your saw won't
try
to climb regardless of the hook when you push rather than pull. What it
will do is try to lift the workpiece and pull it up and away from the
fence.
IOW, someone taught you wrong.


I agree. I think whoever taught that was (from fear) inventing a
solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process, made it
more dangerous.

My suggestion is to never use a tool that makes you that afraid to use
it. Caution is a good thing to have around power tools, but fear is not.

This horse get revived and beat to death over and over again, but the
bottom line is that a RAS is no more inherently dangerous than any other
saw... possibly less so.

In order to be used safely, every power saw should be of good quality,
be set up/tuned up properly, have a quality, sharp blade, appropriate
for its use, and be used with proper, safe technique.

Another important part of the picture is how to cut wood that is not
completely straight. The board must lie flat on the table and be supported
at the stop, or fence, at the point where the board goes through the wood.
There is a way to turn every piece to satisfy that condition. If not, the
motor can jump or bind just as the last bit of wood is being cut.
--
Jim in NC