4 HP motor install

Spoke to the local motor experts. The standard Unisaw switch is
sufficient. He did have and offered to us a switch with the built-in
LVC unit, for $254. He said we need a 35 amp breaker and #8 wire.
He also said a 5HP motor would require a different switch and larger
breaker, also.

Local electrical supply, next door to the motor specialists co., had
all supplies we needed. There is no 35 amp breaker, so a 40 amp will
do. While there, we spoke to an electricain and he'll do the wiring
this afternoon. Electrician recommended a (clothes) dryer cord and
outlet box, rather than the cord and outlet Jonas has.

Did any of you have any questions or concerns, that is not covered
above? I'm sure I can get more info from the electrician and motor
guys.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
4 HP motor install

Spoke to the local motor experts. The standard Unisaw switch is
sufficient. He did have and offered to us a switch with the built-in
LVC unit, for $254. He said we need a 35 amp breaker and #8 wire.
He also said a 5HP motor would require a different switch and larger
breaker, also.

Local electrical supply, next door to the motor specialists co., had
all supplies we needed. There is no 35 amp breaker, so a 40 amp will
do. While there, we spoke to an electricain and he'll do the wiring
this afternoon. Electrician recommended a (clothes) dryer cord and
outlet box, rather than the cord and outlet Jonas has.

Did any of you have any questions or concerns, that is not covered
above? I'm sure I can get more info from the electrician and motor
guys.


You did the right thing Sonny.

--

-Mike-

Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.


Damn! I hate it when I'm wrong...

--

-Mike-

On 5/21/2012 1:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Nothing like "boots on the ground" ... even the motor expert and
electrician didn't agree until someone got some hands-on on the ground.

You sure that motor is not 3 HP?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

I hope he taught you and Jonas how to read a VOM so you can avoid that
next time.


Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

That nameplate amperage for the other motor was 17.something, so I
figured it might be OK as-is.


The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

What'd he nail you for, chargewise?


The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Good luck with that.

--
Progress is the product of human agency. Things get better because
we make them better. Things go wrong when we get too comfortable,
when we fail to take risks or seize opportunities.
-- Susan Rice

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Sonny

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

That nameplate amperage for the other motor was 17.something, so I
figured it might be OK as-is.

The methodology/approach that must be taken into account when answering
questions of this nature, sight unseen, is not whether something "works",
but whether it will pass an inspection and be in compliance with "minimum
standards" as set forth in models like the NEC.

To do otherwise is a disservice to the integrity of the advice proffered in
a forum of this nature. This fact was clearly illustrated by many of the
answers here, as well as the answer provided by the "motor expert".

Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that because something "works",
that it is an all encompassing solution that automatically makes others
"wrong".

--
www.ewoodshop.com

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Sonny

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

That nameplate amperage for the other motor was 17.something, so I
figured it might be OK as-is.

The methodology/approach that must be taken into account when answering
questions of this nature, sight unseen, is not whether something "works",
but whether it will pass an inspection and be in compliance with "minimum
standards" as set forth in models like the NEC.

Which reminds me of some wiring I found in the basement of my house when I
bought it... About 40 feet of old lamp cords were taped together to run a
wire across the basement, laying on the hung ceiling, and out through the
exterior rim joist and siding to power a dual bulb outdoor flood light. Yes
the lights worked but the wire gauge was probably something like 20 or 24,
there were a bunch of open air connections, no work box at the fixture, and
no ground.... The wire was also really warm while the lights were on.
Needless to say, though it worked I ripped it out immediately.... ;~)

John

On 5/22/2012 7:43 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Sonny

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

That nameplate amperage for the other motor was 17.something, so I
figured it might be OK as-is.

The methodology/approach that must be taken into account when answering
questions of this nature, sight unseen, is not whether something "works",
but whether it will pass an inspection and be in compliance with "minimum
standards" as set forth in models like the NEC.

Which reminds me of some wiring I found in the basement of my house when
I bought it... About 40 feet of old lamp cords were taped together to
run a wire across the basement, laying on the hung ceiling, and out
through the exterior rim joist and siding to power a dual bulb outdoor
flood light. Yes the lights worked but the wire gauge was probably
something like 20 or 24, there were a bunch of open air connections, no
work box at the fixture, and no ground.... The wire was also really warm
while the lights were on. Needless to say, though it worked I ripped it
out immediately.... ;~)

I mentioned it here in past about coming close to a catastrophe some 23
years ago when my then 4 year old came into the garage one afternoon to
tell me about the "pretty lights" in the living room.

The "pretty lights" was a fire in a wall that started because someone 30
years earlier had added a receptacle on the opposite side of the same
wall and simply twisted the wires together inside the wall with
electricians tape.

It worked, and lasted 30 years ... just thank gawd it was 1:30 in the
afternoon, instead of the morning, that it finally failed. Our bedroom
was on the opposite end of the house from that wall, which was one room
away from our daughter's bedroom.

I decided at that time that in the future I would inspect all electrical
work myself, not take anything for granted, and that any work of that
nature I did personally would be on a fully informed basis and be in
compliance with applicable codes ... no exceptions.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

What'd he nail you for, chargewise?

Jonas was prepared to pay them, but the electrician said their office
would bill him. For a quick job as this, I was surprised payment
couldn't have been settled then. I'm interested in what may be
charged, also.... about an hour's time.

The electricain who ran the underground wire and wired my shop
subpanel charged me $45. The 6" underground PVC pipe was already laid
for the wire run, so the electrician didn't have to do any digging or
such, etc. and I had all the supplies he needed.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Good luck with that.

When at the electrical supply, we met the electrician who was eager to
help, so was hired at that time. According to our info, specs, etc, he
told us what was needed, as the salesman wrote down his
recommendations. Later, at Jonas' shop, the electrician phoned the
supply co. and explained we didn't need most of the items, after all.
Jonas is to speak with Darrell, one of the supply suprevisors, about
the wire refund. Jonas bought 40' of wire, so for that guage, maybe
40' is readily reuseable and he may get whole or partial refund.
Otherwise, Jonas has no use for that size wire. I guess it depends
on the circumstances, for some refunding, as this, and, it seems, the
electrical suppy is willing to try to accommodate its customers, when
possible. *Sounds like good customer service, to me! Seems the
electrician and the Supply Co have a good working relationship, also,
since it only took a phone call to make the arrangements for the
possible refund.

Sonny

On Tue, 22 May 2012 06:57:22 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT), Sonny

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

That nameplate amperage for the other motor was 17.something, so I
figured it might be OK as-is.

The methodology/approach that must be taken into account when answering
questions of this nature, sight unseen, is not whether something "works",
but whether it will pass an inspection and be in compliance with "minimum
standards" as set forth in models like the NEC.

Absolutely true...if he were doing wiring, but this was a switch on a
table saw, with (I assume) a pigtail going to an existing outlet. How
often are those inspected? I'd probably have replaced those breakers,
too, but he hired the electrician most of us suggested.


To do otherwise is a disservice to the integrity of the advice proffered in
a forum of this nature. This fact was clearly illustrated by many of the
answers here, as well as the answer provided by the "motor expert".

Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that because something "works",
that it is an all encompassing solution that automatically makes others
"wrong".

My train of thought was "It should work safely", I found out that it
did, and then I thought "Good." No neeners or exclusionary thoughts
entered my mind here, nor did any show up in my post, so why did they
there, Swingy? Puzzling.

--
Progress is the product of human agency. Things get better because
we make them better. Things go wrong when we get too comfortable,
when we fail to take risks or seize opportunities.
-- Susan Rice

On 5/22/12 9:49 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
No neeners or exclusionary thoughts
entered my mind here, nor did any show up in my post, so why did they
there, Swingy? Puzzling.


False inference.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Absolutely true...if he were doing wiring, but this was a switch on a
table saw, with (I assume) a pigtail going to an existing outlet.

Slight correction: There was no existing anything regarding wiring
for this saw, except that the new motor came wired. Jonas' dad had a
friend with this saw in an old shop. The saw was given to Jonas. We
did some cleanup and check some alignments & other conditions of the
saw, before considering any wiring. All wiring, from the breaker
panel to and including the switch is new. *The saw is missing the
$8.15 flange (large washer) that the blade nut secures the blade with,
so he can't install a blade, yet. Jonas has a new Unifence & side
table frame (no table top, yet), so that'll be installed next.

How
often are those inspected? *I'd probably have replaced those breakers,
too, but he hired the electrician most of us suggested.

Almost all of the major wiring in my shop was done by an electrician.
Jonas thought he could do his saw wiring. He's learning his limits,
too, but learning, nonetheless.

Sonny

Swingman wrote:


The methodology/approach that must be taken into account when
answering questions of this nature, sight unseen, is not whether
something "works", but whether it will pass an inspection and be in
compliance with "minimum standards" as set forth in models like the
NEC.

True - but who, at what time, ever suggested anything different? You keep
harping these ambiguous statements as if someone had suggested otherwise,
but nobody did. Vague and ambiguous statements do not make you look
smarter.


To do otherwise is a disservice to the integrity of the advice
proffered in a forum of this nature. This fact was clearly
illustrated by many of the answers here, as well as the answer
provided by the "motor expert".

That's at least twice now that I have seen you use the term "motor expert"
(or an equivilent). Just who in the hell is this person you refer to? I
have seen no one post anything in this thread that proclaimed themselves to
be that. Did I miss something, or are you falsely accusing people Karl?


Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that because something
"works", that it is an all encompassing solution that automatically
makes others "wrong".

Let's not fall into the trap of assuming what other people are saying in
order to build a platform to stand on ourselves.

--

-Mike-

the term "motor expert"
(or an equivilent). *Just who in the hell is this person you refer to?

Once we had our wiring problem, we brought a copy of the motor specs
to the local motor experts, Judice Electric Motor Co., and got advice
from them, regarding proper wiring and whether the switch was
appropriate for the 4 hp saw, relative to the specs. Judice Electric
is relaiable, I've had past work performed by them. To the best of
their knowledge and charts, they offered their opinion about what all
wiring was needed. Then I went to Teche Electric Supply and the sales
rep, knowledgeable, also, helped us. The electrician hired was
standing there and I asked his advice and if he'd come out to do the
work.

Karl may have been referring to my reference to motor experts, Judice
Electric .... (and (implied?) the other experts, in their turn, in
servicing us).

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
the term "motor expert"
(or an equivilent). Just who in the hell is this person you refer to?

Once we had our wiring problem, we brought a copy of the motor specs
to the local motor experts, Judice Electric Motor Co., and got advice
from them, regarding proper wiring and whether the switch was
appropriate for the 4 hp saw, relative to the specs. Judice Electric
is relaiable, I've had past work performed by them. To the best of
their knowledge and charts, they offered their opinion about what all
wiring was needed. Then I went to Teche Electric Supply and the sales
rep, knowledgeable, also, helped us. The electrician hired was
standing there and I asked his advice and if he'd come out to do the
work.

Karl may have been referring to my reference to motor experts, Judice
Electric .... (and (implied?) the other experts, in their turn, in
servicing us).

Sonny

Thanks Sonny.

--

-Mike-

On 5/22/2012 12:13 PM, Sonny wrote:

the term "motor expert"
(or an equivilent). Just who in the hell is this person you refer to?

Karl may have been referring to my reference to motor experts, Judice
Electric .... (and (implied?) the other experts, in their turn, in
servicing us).

Yep, what you clearly said:

On 5/21/2012 11:12 AM, Sonny wrote:
4 HP motor install

Spoke to the local motor experts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your phrase, not mine. And what the "motor experts" said:

The standard Unisaw switch is
sufficient. He did have and offered to us a switch with the built-in
LVC unit, for $254. He said we need a 35 amp breaker and #8 wire.
He also said a 5HP motor would require a different switch and larger
breaker, also.

Some folks just don't bother to read before they jump.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman wrote:
On 5/22/2012 12:13 PM, Sonny wrote:

the term "motor expert"
(or an equivilent). Just who in the hell is this person you refer
to?

Karl may have been referring to my reference to motor experts, Judice
Electric .... (and (implied?) the other experts, in their turn, in
servicing us).

Yep, what you clearly said:

On 5/21/2012 11:12 AM, Sonny wrote:
4 HP motor install

Spoke to the local motor experts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your phrase, not mine. And what the "motor experts" said:

The standard Unisaw switch is
sufficient. He did have and offered to us a switch with the built-in
LVC unit, for $254. He said we need a 35 amp breaker and #8 wire.
He also said a 5HP motor would require a different switch and larger
breaker, also.

Some folks just don't bother to read before they jump.

That would be the previous poster. On one hand you bad mouth the "motor
experts", on the other hand you rely upon what they said. So Karl - what in
the hell are you saying? Besides chiding anyone who says anything but what
you say?

--

-Mike-

Subject

NEMA general purpose motor ratings are 3HP & 5HP.

4HP would be a definite purpose motor.

A table saw is considered a general purpose application.

The thermal-magnetic c'bkr for a motor application is chosen for it's
ability to handle the inrush current of the motor.

For a 3HP, cap start, cap run, 230VAC, 1 PH motor, a 2P-30A c'bkr is
req'd which then requires #10 AWG copper wire between c'bkr and motor.

For a 5HP, cap start, cap run, 230VAC, 1 PH motor, a 2P-40A c'bkr is
req'd which then requires #8 AWG copper wire between c'bkr and motor..

For either of these configurations, only the wiring is protected.

An overload relay is req'd to protect the motor windings.

The lowest cost way to wire between c'bkr and motor is to use a 25 ft
molded cord set with receptacle clipped for direct wiring.


Lew

On 5/21/2012 4:17 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/21/2012 1:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Nothing like "boots on the ground" ... even the motor expert and
electrician didn't agree until someone got some hands-on on the ground.

You sure that motor is not 3 HP?


Did the electrician measure that amp draw under load?
If you're ripping a piece of 2" thick maple you might find that the
current draw is much higher.
I find it hard to believe that a *5* HP motor only draws 6 amps. I
have a 3 HP that draws more than that. On 220V.
It's not a Craftsman motor is it? (just kidding)

Max wrote:
On 5/21/2012 4:17 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/21/2012 1:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

If it was "cut from a roll", it would surprise me if it was eligible for
return, rather like a cut from a roll of carpet. I guess it just depends
how saleable it is and where you bought it, etc. etc.




Nothing like "boots on the ground" ... even the motor expert and
electrician didn't agree until someone got some hands-on on the ground.

You sure that motor is not 3 HP?


Did the electrician measure that amp draw under load?
If you're ripping a piece of 2" thick maple you might find that the
current draw is much higher.
I find it hard to believe that a *5* HP motor only draws 6 amps. I have
a 3 HP that draws more than that. On 220V.
It's not a Craftsman motor is it? (just kidding)

Somebody wrote:

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.
-------------------------------
The sign behind the counter usually reads, "No returns on cut wire",
or something similar.

At least in all the years I was associated with electrical
distributors it did.

Lew

On Tue, 22 May 2012 09:06:12 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

Absolutely true...if he were doing wiring, but this was a switch on a
table saw, with (I assume) a pigtail going to an existing outlet.

Slight correction: There was no existing anything regarding wiring
for this saw, except that the new motor came wired. Jonas' dad had a
friend with this saw in an old shop. The saw was given to Jonas. We
did some cleanup and check some alignments & other conditions of the
saw, before considering any wiring. All wiring, from the breaker
panel to and including the switch is new. *The saw is missing the
$8.15 flange (large washer) that the blade nut secures the blade with,
so he can't install a blade, yet. Jonas has a new Unifence & side
table frame (no table top, yet), so that'll be installed next.

I sit corrected. (too lazy to stand)


How
often are those inspected? *I'd probably have replaced those breakers,
too, but he hired the electrician most of us suggested.

Almost all of the major wiring in my shop was done by an electrician.
Jonas thought he could do his saw wiring. He's learning his limits,
too, but learning, nonetheless.

It's legal in most states to do your own wiring, so I always have.
There are lots of books which would help Jonas on his quest.
http://tinyurl.com/cvosvox The library is always my first stop, to
see if they're worth reading. I sometimes go through 3 or 4 to find a
good one. When I find one I like, I usually buy it.

--
Progress is the product of human agency. Things get better because
we make them better. Things go wrong when we get too comfortable,
when we fail to take risks or seize opportunities.
-- Susan Rice

On 5/22/2012 10:06 PM, Max wrote:
On 5/21/2012 4:17 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/21/2012 1:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Nothing like "boots on the ground" ... even the motor expert and
electrician didn't agree until someone got some hands-on on the ground.

You sure that motor is not 3 HP?


Did the electrician measure that amp draw under load?
If you're ripping a piece of 2" thick maple you might find that the
current draw is much higher.
I find it hard to believe that a *5* HP motor only draws 6 amps. I have
a 3 HP that draws more than that. On 220V.
It's not a Craftsman motor is it? (just kidding)

Your point goes right back to my contention that because something works
doesn't mean that it is the optimum solution.

Makes you wonder how the "motor experts" at Judice feel, based on their
knowledge of motors, about being so far off base with the electrical
design requirements from what the electrician determined on site?

And Lew's assessment, based on many years in the business, was certainly
in line with the "motor experts". In over ten years of watching his
participation here, I've not seen one single instance of his electrical
advice when it comes to electrical design requirements being nothing but
absolute spot on.

I gotta admit to a raised eyebrow about the final solution since I've
known so many numb nut electricians in the construction business, but
the proof will be in the pudding and it could be be just fine for the
intended use, which is all that matters in any event.

I will say unequivocally about the final solution for a cabinet saw,
providing it is indeed a 4HP motor: "not in my shop".

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Did the electrician measure that amp draw under load?

No. A blade can't be installed at the moment because the flange, to
help hold the blade in position, is missing. If the breaker trips
when a load is applied, we can easily up the wire and breaker size.

If you're ripping a piece of 2" thick maple you might find that the
current draw is much higher.
* I find it hard to believe that a *5* HP motor only draws 6 amps. *I
have a 3 HP that draws more than that. On 220V.

The motor is 4 hp and the spec sheet does indicate it is for a saw.

Sonny

-------------------------------
The sign behind the counter usually reads, "No returns on cut wire",
or something similar.

At least in all the years I was associated with electrical
distributors it did.

Lew

Yeah, I'm familiar with that policy. We thought there may be a chance
of getting some refund, as per the electrician's phone call. Jonas
didn't get any refund, after all. Oh well, a $50 lesson learned....
not a bad cost.

Sonny

On May 23, 7:20*am, Swingman wrote:
On 5/22/2012 10:06 PM, Max wrote:





On 5/21/2012 4:17 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/21/2012 1:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
Okay, another update. Electrician came out and discovered the
switch was wired wrong.

Everything we initially had was appropriately sized for the saw,
motor, etc. The 12-2 wire was sufficient, the 20 amp breaker was
sufficient and the 220 outlet was sufficient.

The saw runs fine. The amp draw is 6 amps at continuous run
(according to the electrician and his meter). He said the start-up
didn't approach the capacity of the breaker, the switch or any other
aspect of the electrical system. He wired it correctly and said we
were good to go.

The supplies Jonas bought, mentioned earlier, can be returned, since
they were beyond what was needed. We may be able to return the #8
wire, also, or at least possibly get a partial refund, since it was
cut from a roll.

Nothing like "boots on the ground" ... even the motor expert and
electrician didn't agree until someone got some hands-on on the ground..

You sure that motor is not 3 HP?

Did the electrician measure that amp draw under load?
If you're ripping a piece of 2" thick maple you might find that the
current draw is much higher.
I find it hard to believe that a *5* HP motor only draws 6 amps. I have
a 3 HP that draws more than that. On 220V.
It's not a Craftsman motor is it? (just kidding)

Your point goes right back to my contention that because something works
doesn't mean that it is the optimum solution.

Makes you wonder how the "motor experts" at Judice feel, based on their
knowledge of motors, about being so far off base with the electrical
design requirements from what the electrician determined on site?

And Lew's assessment, based on many years in the business, was certainly
in line with the "motor experts". In over ten years of watching his
participation here, I've not seen one single instance of his electrical
advice when it comes to electrical design requirements being nothing but
absolute spot on.

I gotta admit to a raised eyebrow about the final solution since I've
known so many numb nut electricians in the construction business, but
the proof will be in the pudding and it could be be just fine for the
intended use, which is all that matters in any event.

I will say unequivocally about the final solution for a cabinet saw,
providing it is indeed a 4HP motor: "not in my shop".

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, the electrician may still be a little off, if a load on the saw
requires increasing the wiring and breaker size. His assessment, of
amp draw and overall sufficiency of the system, was based on the non-
loaded running of the saw.

Sonny

On 5/24/2012 6:18 AM, Sonny wrote:
On May 23, 7:20 am, wrote:

I gotta admit to a raised eyebrow about the final solution since I've
known so many numb nut electricians in the construction business, but
the proof will be in the pudding and it could be be just fine for the
intended use, which is all that matters in any event.

I will say unequivocally about the final solution for a cabinet saw,
providing it is indeed a 4HP motor: "not in my shop".

Well, the electrician may still be a little off, if a load on the saw
requires increasing the wiring and breaker size. His assessment, of
amp draw and overall sufficiency of the system, was based on the non-
loaded running of the saw.

According to manufacturing spec, my 3HP Unisaw should run fine on
220/20A with 12g wire, and apparently most of them do.

I ran it without issue on a 20A/10ga dedicated circuit for years until I
moved it to another shop location for a couple of years and initially
tried to run it (using the exact same c'bkr I brought with me) on a
20A/12ga dedicated circtuit (with about +/-5' more distance to the
sub-panel).

In the new location the saw would periodically trip the circuit breaker
(and occasionally the thermal overload button on the motor would pop,
which had never happened before).

I rewired that approximately 5' longer home run with 10ga wire and never
had another problem in that shop. Length of home run in both cases was
between 20 - 25' max.

Lots of variables to take into consideration here, but one would think
that a small increase in distance, that was under 50' to start with,
coupled with a smaller wire size, wouldn't make that much of a
difference, but it obviously did with this particular saw.

IOW, and for whatever reason, not flirting too close to the maximum
circuit capacity with equipment like a table saw can often save some
needless frustration.

YMMV ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

The charge was $85 for the electrician's work. It took less than an
hour and two guys showed up, whereas only one guy was spoken to and
hired at the supply house. I suppose they worked as a team and the
other guy wasn't in the supply house when we spoke.

A reasonable job was performed and this cost was well worth the peace
of mind, also.

Sonny

That's a reasonable price.
I don't know what part of the country. But here in NJ that would just
cover a visit, with no work.



On 5/26/2012 10:52 AM, Sonny wrote:
The charge was $85 for the electrician's work. It took less than an
hour and two guys showed up, whereas only one guy was spoken to and
hired at the supply house. I suppose they worked as a team and the
other guy wasn't in the supply house when we spoke.

A reasonable job was performed and this cost was well worth the peace
of mind, also.

Sonny

On 5/24/2012 6:49 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/24/2012 6:18 AM, Sonny wrote:
On May 23, 7:20 am, wrote:

I gotta admit to a raised eyebrow about the final solution since I've
known so many numb nut electricians in the construction business, but
the proof will be in the pudding and it could be be just fine for the
intended use, which is all that matters in any event.

I will say unequivocally about the final solution for a cabinet saw,
providing it is indeed a 4HP motor: "not in my shop".

Well, the electrician may still be a little off, if a load on the saw
requires increasing the wiring and breaker size. His assessment, of
amp draw and overall sufficiency of the system, was based on the non-
loaded running of the saw.

According to manufacturing spec, my 3HP Unisaw should run fine on
220/20A with 12g wire, and apparently most of them do.

I ran it without issue on a 20A/10ga dedicated circuit for years until I
moved it to another shop location for a couple of years and initially
tried to run it (using the exact same c'bkr I brought with me) on a
20A/12ga dedicated circtuit (with about +/-5' more distance to the
sub-panel).

In the new location the saw would periodically trip the circuit breaker
(and occasionally the thermal overload button on the motor would pop,
which had never happened before).

I rewired that approximately 5' longer home run with 10ga wire and never
had another problem in that shop. Length of home run in both cases was
between 20 - 25' max.

Lots of variables to take into consideration here, but one would think
that a small increase in distance, that was under 50' to start with,
coupled with a smaller wire size, wouldn't make that much of a
difference, but it obviously did with this particular saw.

IOW, and for whatever reason, not flirting too close to the maximum
circuit capacity with equipment like a table saw can often save some
needless frustration.

YMMV ...


And that has been my experience as well.

Max