I'm getting ready to build a new workbench to replace my old MDF
beast.

Where I live, hard maple and beech are about the same price (beech is
slightly less). I gather from reading archives that most people
recommend one of these two choices ... but given a roughly equal
price, is there any advantage in one versus the other?

I've worked hard maple but have never used beech.

Thanks!

Nate Perkins asks:

I'm getting ready to build a new workbench to replace my old MDF
beast.

Where I live, hard maple and beech are about the same price (beech is
slightly less). I gather from reading archives that most people
recommend one of these two choices ... but given a roughly equal
price, is there any advantage in one versus the other?

I've worked hard maple but have never used beech.

Beech is what might be called a shifty wood. Fagus grandifolia is American
beech, AKA red beech, white beech, winter beech. It needs great care in
seasoning because of its high shrinkage rate. It is also not stable after it is
seasoned. Still, it makes good flooring, butcher blocks, chairs, handles and
other items. Given a choice between Acer saccharum and beech, I'd jump on the
maple every time. It needs rapid drying to prevent stain, but seasons well and
is a fairlys table wood after seasoning. It makes superb floors and is used in
bowling alleys and pins because of its hardness and stability.

It's hard to find green around here (central VA), and is expensive otherwise,
even in the straightgrained, plain wood you want for a workbench, but is a fine
wood that takes a very, very smooth finish.
Charlie Self
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that
it is his duty." George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra (1901)

I'd change the 'f' to a t. Not worth the risk on beech. Sort of brittle,
too.

I would, however, not shirk at using "soft" (A rubrum) maple either.
Abundant and pretty cheap, because it has relatively large heartwood area,
and isn't as attractive for furniture, which a bench shouldn't be.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Nate Perkins asks:

Beech is what might be called a shifty wood. Fagus grandifolia is American
beech, AKA red beech, white beech, winter beech. It needs great care in
seasoning because of its high shrinkage rate. It is also not stable after
it is
seasoned. Still, it makes good flooring, butcher blocks, chairs, handles
and
other items. Given a choice between Acer saccharum and beech, I'd jump on
the
maple every time. It needs rapid drying to prevent stain, but seasons well
and
is a fairlys table wood after seasoning. It makes superb floors and is
used in
bowling alleys and pins because of its hardness and stability.

On 22 Jul 2004 11:59:56 -0700, (Nate Perkins)
wrote:

Where I live, hard maple and beech are about the same price

Which side of the Atlantic ?

European maple is rare, expensive and of undistinguished quality, but
our beech is good. US hard maple is the wood of choice for
benchmaking, but all the US beech I've seen has been rubbish.

--
Smert' spamionam

I have a maple benchtop, laminated with fillets. 2 1/2" thick. it's
very solid on a trestle leg arrangment. I carve and like a somewhat
"stickier" surface and find that keeping it sanded with 100-120 grit
and oiled only rather than scraped, oiled and sealed (my original
finish) works best.


(Nate Perkins) wrote in message . com...
I'm getting ready to build a new workbench to replace my old MDF
beast.

Where I live, hard maple and beech are about the same price (beech is
slightly less). I gather from reading archives that most people
recommend one of these two choices ... but given a roughly equal
price, is there any advantage in one versus the other?

I've worked hard maple but have never used beech.

Thanks!

May I butt in? I need advice too. I will use my gorrilla-rack work bench, with
the top metal parts that hold the top assmbled upside-down so they can be
"filled" with the wood, I really can't afford very much maple but my grandmother
gave me her old maple breakfast table, should be about 7 or 8 BF of wood,
need a full 10 BF @ 1" thick for the top only, using a cheaper wood underneath
like maybe poplar, laminated on. Will this idea work? Or should I use another
"under" wood?

(If I used all maple I would need a full 30 BF and that would be WAY too
expensive! 24"x60"x3" thick)

I bought a stack of old woodwork related mags in a public library, and saw both
your birdhouse books advertised in one of them, pretty neat!

Alex

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jul 2004 11:59:56 -0700, (Nate Perkins)
wrote:

Where I live, hard maple and beech are about the same price

Which side of the Atlantic ?

European maple is rare, expensive and of undistinguished quality, but
our beech is good. US hard maple is the wood of choice for
benchmaking, but all the US beech I've seen has been rubbish.

In the US (Colorado). The hardwood lumber yard has hard maple for
around $3.20/bf, and "steamed European beech" for about $3.00/bf.

Thanks to all you guys for your kind replies.

Nate Perkins
Fort Collins, CO US

In the US (Colorado). The hardwood lumber yard has hard maple for
around $3.20/bf, and "steamed European beech" for about $3.00/bf.

Thanks to all you guys for your kind replies.

Nate Perkins
Fort Collins, CO US

Sheesh here on the west coast it is over $6 a BF!
Alex

"AArDvarK" wrote in
news:l70Mc.15961$Zr.9443@okepread01:


In the US (Colorado). The hardwood lumber yard has hard maple for
around $3.20/bf, and "steamed European beech" for about $3.00/bf.

Thanks to all you guys for your kind replies.

Nate Perkins
Fort Collins, CO US

Sheesh here on the west coast it is over $6 a BF!
Alex

Not everywhere on the west coast. And bear in mind that, for a workbench,
color matching and figure may not be all that important to you. You
certainly don't need to buy s4s at Home Depot...

Patriarch

"AArDvarK" wrote in
news%%Lc.15960$Zr.5639@okepread01:


May I butt in? I need advice too. I will use my gorrilla-rack work
bench, with the top metal parts that hold the top assmbled upside-down
so they can be "filled" with the wood, I really can't afford very much
maple but my grandmother gave me her old maple breakfast table, should
be about 7 or 8 BF of wood, need a full 10 BF @ 1" thick for the top
only, using a cheaper wood underneath like maybe poplar, laminated on.
Will this idea work? Or should I use another "under" wood?

(If I used all maple I would need a full 30 BF and that would be WAY
too expensive! 24"x60"x3" thick)


If that's what you're going to use for leg support, then consider using CDX
plywood to build up the thickness, with the maple top. The differences
won't be apparent in use.

You can build a perfectly servicable bench from construction grade lumber,
using the right joinery. While maple is great, don't let the lack of a
great bench stop you from working on the projects you really want to build.

If you want to build an heirloom bench later, when time, space and money
allow, you'll be more experienced, and do a better job.

Patriarch

AArDvarK asks:

May I butt in? I need advice too. I will use my gorrilla-rack work bench,
with
the top metal parts that hold the top assmbled upside-down so they can be
"filled" with the wood, I really can't afford very much maple but my
grandmother
gave me her old maple breakfast table, should be about 7 or 8 BF of wood,
need a full 10 BF @ 1" thick for the top only, using a cheaper wood
underneath
like maybe poplar, laminated on. Will this idea work? Or should I use another
"under" wood?

Poplar, either aspen or tulip variety, is fine as a secondary wood. I'm not
sure what you mean by laminated here, but make sure you use freshly machined
wood, good adhesive, and clamp well (sandbags work on wide surfaces, as do flue
blocks and cement blocks and even bricks--set on rough boards to protect the
good surface--if you don't have a vacuum press, which most of us don't).

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.' "
Garrison Keillor

Have to wonder about that. I know our monster mill is steaming the local
beech to make it look more appealing. Doesn't seem to have affected it's
working qualities much.

"Nate Perkins" wrote in message
om...

In the US (Colorado). The hardwood lumber yard has hard maple for
around $3.20/bf, and "steamed European beech" for about $3.00/bf.

Thanks to all you guys for your kind replies.

Nate Perkins
Fort Collins, CO US

George writes:

Have to wonder about that. I know our monster mill is steaming the local
beech to make it look more appealing. Doesn't seem to have affected it's
working qualities much.

European beech is a whole different thing, though. I guess the steaming is for
appearance, but once dried EB is stable. American beech is unstable, wet, dry
or steamed.

Companies like E. C. Emmerich would long ago have gone out of business if
European red beech were unstable. All but one of the E. C. E. planes I have is
made of beech, and their workbenchs are primarily beech, too.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.' "
Garrison Keillor

Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can import
Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as domestic maple
from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
George writes:

Have to wonder about that. I know our monster mill is steaming the local
beech to make it look more appealing. Doesn't seem to have affected it's
working qualities much.

European beech is a whole different thing, though. I guess the steaming is
for
appearance, but once dried EB is stable. American beech is unstable, wet,
dry
or steamed.

Companies like E. C. Emmerich would long ago have gone out of business if
European red beech were unstable. All but one of the E. C. E. planes I
have is
made of beech, and their workbenchs are primarily beech, too.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'
"
Garrison Keillor

George responds:

Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can import
Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as domestic maple
from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.

You could be right. It strikes me that most of the Europeans on the wreck
complain about the price of wood being so much higher than it is here, while
also griping about most of the tools and their prices. What I've seen in their
magazines tends to support the concept that wood in Europe is pricey, compared
to here.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.' "
Garrison Keillor

"George" george@least wrote in :

Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can
import Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as
domestic maple from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.


The price he quotes for both is roughly what I pay for FAS soft maple in
the SF Bay area. Hard maple comes from the other coast, and so is much
more money. Colorado IS a rail center, but that doesn't explain EuroBeech.

You're thinking this is a 'mahogany' thing?

Patriarch

Not a big leap from a properly described "European-style steamed beech" to a
middleman or retailer's "European steamed beech."

My big kid says that the prices in Germany are much higher than
Poland/Russia for hardwood.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
George responds:

Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can import
Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as domestic
maple
from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.

You could be right. It strikes me that most of the Europeans on the wreck
complain about the price of wood being so much higher than it is here,
while
also griping about most of the tools and their prices. What I've seen in
their
magazines tends to support the concept that wood in Europe is pricey,
compared
to here.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'
"
Garrison Keillor

If that's what you're going to use for leg support, then consider using CDX
plywood to build up the thickness, with the maple top. The differences
won't be apparent in use.
You can build a perfectly servicable bench from construction grade lumber,
using the right joinery. While maple is great, don't let the lack of a
great bench stop you from working on the projects you really want to build.
If you want to build an heirloom bench later, when time, space and money
allow, you'll be more experienced, and do a better job.
Patriarch


Good advice, thank you. But what does CDX mean? The other concern about plywood,
while I did consider it, is those holes to be drilled for hold-downs and bench dogs. I can
imagine that pressure will be applied toward the sides of the holes at the lower ends,
eventually that ply will begin to break down and chip? I can also imagine DF 2x4's will
also develope cracks because of the wide grain structure. I heard that poplar is only a
little harder than DF (much local) but has a much better grain, tighter, and lower cost.

Alex

"George" george@least wrote:
Not a big leap from a properly described "European-style steamed beech" to a
middleman or retailer's "European steamed beech."

My big kid says that the prices in Germany are much higher than
Poland/Russia for hardwood.

"Charlie Self" wrote:
George responds:

Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can import
Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as domestic
maple
from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.

Well, these guys are pretty reputable folks; I've bought some
equipment and a lot of small quantities of lumber from them. I talked
to them on the phone and they confirm it's actually steamed beech,
imported from Germany. The 4/4 is $3.61 a bf, and the 8/4 is $3.44 a
bf (yeah I thought that was odd but they say the price they charge
depends on the deal and volume they get). They sell hard maple at
$4.09 a bf, but another guy I know that trucks in once a month from
Iowa and sells his hard maple for $3.50 a bf.

Guess I'll build the bench out of 8/4 beech. Now if I can just figure
out how to keep from messing up the tail vise design :-P

For the last year or two I've been using a couple of pieces of 1" MDF
on a 2x4 frame with a metal face vise and a bench hook. It's going to
be really nice to have a real bench.

Thanks for the help, all.

Poplar, either aspen or tulip variety, is fine as a secondary wood. I'm not
sure what you mean by laminated here, but make sure you use freshly machined
wood, good adhesive, and clamp well (sandbags work on wide surfaces, as do flue
blocks and cement blocks and even bricks--set on rough boards to protect the
good surface--if you don't have a vacuum press, which most of us don't).

Laminated, gorilla-glued maple top to poplar bottom, like you thought with the
weight idea, great idea. And, what is the best glue for laminating?

Now getting that table top sawed properly....

Alex

AArDvarK asks:

Laminated, gorilla-glued maple top to poplar bottom, like you thought with
the
weight idea, great idea. And, what is the best glue for laminating?

Now getting that table top sawed properly....

A woodworking glue--NOT contact cement--with as long an open time as you can
get. You want to be able to finick your way around and make sure everything
lines up. I'd use Titebond Extend or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

Good luck.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'"
Garrison Keillor

Good deal, then.

"Nate Perkins" wrote in message
om...
Well, it's advertisespeak which concerns me. If they really can
import
Europe's premier hardwood to Colorado for the same price as domestic
maple
from Michigan, great. My concern is that they haven't.

Well, these guys are pretty reputable folks; I've bought some
equipment and a lot of small quantities of lumber from them. I talked
to them on the phone and they confirm it's actually steamed beech,
imported from Germany. The 4/4 is $3.61 a bf, and the 8/4 is $3.44 a
bf (yeah I thought that was odd but they say the price they charge
depends on the deal and volume they get). They sell hard maple at
$4.09 a bf, but another guy I know that trucks in once a month from
Iowa and sells his hard maple for $3.50 a bf.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:59:01 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:

My big kid says that the prices in Germany are much higher than
Poland/Russia for hardwood.

Not much difference - hardwood is expensive in both.

For _softwood_ though, Poland (and Latvia, Lithuanian & Estonia) are
indeed much cheaper. Good quality too, if you want it.

--
Smert' spamionam

"AArDvarK" wrote in
news:U9dMc.16569$Zr.1430@okepread01:


If that's what you're going to use for leg support, then consider
using CDX plywood to build up the thickness, with the maple top. The
differences won't be apparent in use.
You can build a perfectly servicable bench from construction grade
lumber, using the right joinery. While maple is great, don't let the
lack of a great bench stop you from working on the projects you
really want to build. If you want to build an heirloom bench later,
when time, space and money allow, you'll be more experienced, and do
a better job. Patriarch


Good advice, thank you. But what does CDX mean? The other concern
about plywood, while I did consider it, is those holes to be drilled
for hold-downs and bench dogs. I can imagine that pressure will be
applied toward the sides of the holes at the lower ends, eventually
that ply will begin to break down and chip? I can also imagine DF
2x4's will also develope cracks because of the wide grain structure. I
heard that poplar is only a little harder than DF (much local) but has
a much better grain, tighter, and lower cost.

Alex

CDX describes the grade of plywood. CDX has one face side, with many
repaired knots & splits, and a back side, X, with essentially whatever
happens to come out. In other words, rough construction grade.

What I'm recommending is a method that will get you a perfectly usable
bench top, spending less than $40 and a weekend morning's work, plus
whatever you were planning on spending with the recycled maple.

I built a bench as my second large woodworking project, with DF
undercarriage, and baltic birch cabinet grade ply as the top. It's not an
heirloom, but some of the stuff I've built with it since is pretty special
to the family and the folks who have received it. When the bench wears
out, I'll stop beating on it, and it becomes an assembly bench, or a place
to pile tools and junk bench. Or firewood. It is, in other words, a means
to an end, and not an end in itself.

Others have their opinions, to which they are certainly welcome. To me, a
bench is a large clamping device, and not much more.

Patriarch

Good advice, thank you. But what does CDX mean?

CDX is the grade of plywood. One side grade C, the other side grade
D, the X is for "cross this off the pretty list." Basically, the
crappiest stuff that still qualifies as plywood.

The other concern about plywood,
while I did consider it, is those holes to be drilled for hold-downs and bench dogs. I can
imagine that pressure will be applied toward the sides of the holes at the lower ends,
eventually that ply will begin to break down and chip?

It'll probably be awhile, but when it does happen, drill out the
holes, tap some dowels into the (now larger) holes, and re-drill your
dog holes. I did the same thing in a SPF (Spruce/Pine/Fir) bench with
an MDF top.

I can also imagine DF 2x4's will
also develope cracks because of the wide grain structure. I heard that poplar is only a
little harder than DF (much local) but has a much better grain, tighter, and lower cost.

Alex

I can't imagine anywhere in America that poplar would be cheaper than
construction-grade lumber, but what do I know? Don't answer that. I
would give serious consideration to Jummywood (Southern Yellow Pine).
It's only slightly more expensive than white wood and twice as hard
and plenny dense for a workbench.

As always, YMMV.

-Phil Crow

Phil Crow wrote:
CDX is the grade of plywood. One side grade C, the other side grade
D, the X is for "cross this off the pretty list." Basically, the
crappiest stuff that still qualifies as plywood.
Always thought
the X stood for "exterior" grade. Tom
Work at your leisure!

Thanks for all the helpful replies, everyone. It's appreciated.

Cheers,
Nate

In article ,
patriarch patriarch wrote:
"AArDvarK" wrote in
news:U9dMc.16569$Zr.1430@okepread01:


If that's what you're going to use for leg support, then consider
using CDX plywood to build up the thickness, with the maple top. The
differences won't be apparent in use.
You can build a perfectly servicable bench from construction grade
lumber, using the right joinery. While maple is great, don't let the
lack of a great bench stop you from working on the projects you
really want to build. If you want to build an heirloom bench later,
when time, space and money allow, you'll be more experienced, and do
a better job. Patriarch


Good advice, thank you. But what does CDX mean? The other concern
about plywood, while I did consider it, is those holes to be drilled
for hold-downs and bench dogs. I can imagine that pressure will be
applied toward the sides of the holes at the lower ends, eventually
that ply will begin to break down and chip? I can also imagine DF
2x4's will also develope cracks because of the wide grain structure. I
heard that poplar is only a little harder than DF (much local) but has
a much better grain, tighter, and lower cost.

Alex

CDX describes the grade of plywood. CDX has one face side, with many
repaired knots & splits, and a back side, X, with essentially whatever
happens to come out. In other words, rough construction grade.

Isn't it "front side grade 'C', back side grade 'D', exterior-use (i.e.
a 'waterproof' glue used) rated' ?

(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
vers.com:

CDX describes the grade of plywood. CDX has one face side, with many
repaired knots & splits, and a back side, X, with essentially whatever
happens to come out. In other words, rough construction grade.

Isn't it "front side grade 'C', back side grade 'D', exterior-use (i.e.
a 'waterproof' glue used) rated' ?

Well, maybe. That sounds familiar, actually. I'm certainly not the expert
on that.

My point was mostly, that not all parts of the bench need to made with
'furniture grade' material, in order to be useful.

Patriarch

A woodworking glue--NOT contact cement--with as long an open time as you can
get. You want to be able to finick your way around and make sure everything
lines up. I'd use Titebond Extend or a reasonable facsimile thereof.


Okay thanks for the simple clearity about the glue to use. Saw your new TS in Sears,
do you think it was worth it?

Alex

I can't imagine anywhere in America that poplar would be cheaper than
construction-grade lumber, but what do I know? Don't answer that. I
would give serious consideration to Jummywood (Southern Yellow Pine).
It's only slightly more expensive than white wood and twice as hard
and plenny dense for a workbench.

Sorry I meant "cheaper than maple". But that southern yellow pine sounds like
the right idea if it is low on knots, maybe that doesn't matter. I saw a chart that
says SYP is a very hard and heavy wood. Thanks much for the input on that.

Alex

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:51:09 GMT, patriarch
wrote:

CDX describes the grade of plywood. CDX has one face side, with many
repaired knots & splits, and a back side, X, with essentially whatever
happens to come out. In other words, rough construction grade.


C and D are the grades of the two faces. X is for eXterior glue used
to bond the plies together.

Alex asks:

A woodworking glue--NOT contact cement--with as long an open time as you
can
get. You want to be able to finick your way around and make sure everything
lines up. I'd use Titebond Extend or a reasonable facsimile thereof.


Okay thanks for the simple clearity about the glue to use. Saw your new TS in
Sears,
do you think it was worth it?

I like it. WOrth it? That's subjective as hell for any tool. I plan to use it
for some years, I'm impressed with the construction, find it generally accurate
and easy to use, with a couple features I'd change (but I'd like to change one
or two features on just about every tool I've ever used), but is it worth the
price? Personally, I do all my Sears & J. C. Penney shopping on sales days, so
it would then be well worth the price.

Didn't someone say they got an introductory model for under 800 bucks?

But, yeah, it's worth the price.

Charlie Self
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'"
Garrison Keillor

I like it. WOrth it? That's subjective as hell for any tool. I plan to use it
for some years, I'm impressed with the construction, find it generally accurate
and easy to use, with a couple features I'd change (but I'd like to change one
or two features on just about every tool I've ever used), but is it worth the
price? Personally, I do all my Sears & J. C. Penney shopping on sales days, so
it would then be well worth the price.
Didn't someone say they got an introductory model for under 800 bucks?
But, yeah, it's worth the price.


Just curius as knowing nothing about it, thought it looked a little "rinky-dink"
for the money... but, engineering and functional quality is always another story.
Alex