I'm making two panel cabinet doors. Got all the pieces made and (mostly)
sanded. Yesterday I decided to try to glue them up. I got one done, but
not without a fair amount of angst and a flurry of unkind utterances in
the direction of the wood, tools and the universe in general.

I spent my commute to work this morning musing on what I might have done
differently.

As per suggestions here, I made the panel a little small, and didn't
apply any glue to hold it in. I put one of the stiles in the bench vise
and built the rest of the door up from there. Thus the door was
essentially on its side during the process. Like so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...3917/lightbox/

Once I got it square I laid it on the bench and clamped it lightly.

I had three problems.

1. Squaring up: Once I got the last piece on (the top piece in this
orientation) I put a framing square to one corner. It was off. No
surprise there, but adjusting it (with a rubber mallet) seemed more
problematic than I had expected. Having to tap it, then check, then tap,
then check, then ... was tedious, especially when I needed to tap one of
the rails *outward*.

2. Which brings me to the second problem. I have two black rubber
mallets. I used the small one mostly; 8 oz., I think. Although I used a
piece of scrap against the inside edge of the rail to give me a bigger
target to hit, I still managed to put a black scuff mark on the panel.
Luckily, the mark sanded out before I went through what I have learned
is a very thin veneer, but I'd like to avoid that on the next one.

3. In the end the worst problem was that there was a slight gap between
the rails and stiles, a gap that wasn't there when I dry fit the pieces.
I doubt that anyone will notice this in the finished location (a few
inches off the floor), but it disappoints me and I'd like to learn from
whatever mistake I made.

Here is my own assessment of my mistakes and ideas for improvement.

1. I'm planning to make a jig of sorts, even though I have only one more
door to glue up. I would assemble the door laying down on the bench
instead of vertically. I'd make a (shallow) U-shaped jig that would hold
the first stile snugly in position on the back of my bench. The side
pieces of the jig would be just long enough to act as "stops" for the
rails. I'd then make corner marks on the bench top itself (on painter's
tape). I'm hoping that such marks will show me exactly where the corners
of the finished piece should end up when it is square, rather than
having to reapply the framing square (or worse, remeasure the diagonals)
after each mallet blow.

2. To avoid scuff marks, I figure to use a thicker block with some sort
of thin material under it to protect the face of the panel.

3. This one has me perplexed. The splines I used in the joints fit
pretty tightly even when dry, but I'm pretty sure that gap wasn't there
in the dry-fit. Is it possible that the splines (or the wood in the
grooves) swelled a little from the moisture in the glue? (Titebond). If
so, maybe I should shave down the splines just a bit. I should add that
I was taught in High School (back when some of the trees this lumber
came from from were young) to wipe off excess glue that squeezes out
with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

As always, thanks in advance.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:34:25 -0500, Greg Guarino
wrote:

I'm making two panel cabinet doors. Got all the pieces made and (mostly)
sanded. Yesterday I decided to try to glue them up. I got one done, but
not without a fair amount of angst and a flurry of unkind utterances in
the direction of the wood, tools and the universe in general.

That's PFTC.


I spent my commute to work this morning musing on what I might have done
differently.

As per suggestions here, I made the panel a little small, and didn't
apply any glue to hold it in. I put one of the stiles in the bench vise
and built the rest of the door up from there. Thus the door was
essentially on its side during the process. Like so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...3917/lightbox/

Once I got it square I laid it on the bench and clamped it lightly.

I had three problems.

1. Squaring up: Once I got the last piece on (the top piece in this
orientation) I put a framing square to one corner. It was off. No
surprise there, but adjusting it (with a rubber mallet) seemed more
problematic than I had expected. Having to tap it, then check, then tap,
then check, then ... was tedious, especially when I needed to tap one of
the rails *outward*.

Next time, try using mortise and tenon joinery instead of splines. It
helps keep your panels flat and square without trying.


2. Which brings me to the second problem. I have two black rubber
mallets. I used the small one mostly; 8 oz., I think. Although I used a
piece of scrap against the inside edge of the rail to give me a bigger
target to hit, I still managed to put a black scuff mark on the panel.
Luckily, the mark sanded out before I went through what I have learned
is a very thin veneer, but I'd like to avoid that on the next one.

Either get a Nupla replaceable head mallet, or get a urethane mallet.
They're scuff-free. http://goo.gl/JPBZR or http://goo.gl/QnrWQ


3. In the end the worst problem was that there was a slight gap between
the rails and stiles, a gap that wasn't there when I dry fit the pieces.

Bondo is your friend. gd&r


I doubt that anyone will notice this in the finished location (a few
inches off the floor), but it disappoints me and I'd like to learn from
whatever mistake I made.

Here is my own assessment of my mistakes and ideas for improvement.

1. I'm planning to make a jig of sorts, even though I have only one more
door to glue up. I would assemble the door laying down on the bench
instead of vertically. I'd make a (shallow) U-shaped jig that would hold
the first stile snugly in position on the back of my bench. The side
pieces of the jig would be just long enough to act as "stops" for the
rails. I'd then make corner marks on the bench top itself (on painter's
tape). I'm hoping that such marks will show me exactly where the corners
of the finished piece should end up when it is square, rather than
having to reapply the framing square (or worse, remeasure the diagonals)
after each mallet blow.

Not enough time to answer this one.


2. To avoid scuff marks, I figure to use a thicker block with some sort
of thin material under it to protect the face of the panel.

Yes, use a push stick of sorts. It protects the corners of the wood.


3. This one has me perplexed. The splines I used in the joints fit
pretty tightly even when dry, but I'm pretty sure that gap wasn't there
in the dry-fit. Is it possible that the splines (or the wood in the
grooves) swelled a little from the moisture in the glue? (Titebond). If
so, maybe I should shave down the splines just a bit.

There should be room for glue on either edge of the spline (ie: if the
grooves are each 3/8" deep, the spline should be less than 3/4" tall,
maybe 5/8. And, yes, they will grow just a bit with moisture from the
glue, but that gap you have may close up a little when dry.


I should add that
I was taught in High School (back when some of the trees this lumber
came from from were young) to wipe off excess glue that squeezes out
with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

Your high school teacher did you a disservice. Wet rags can flush out
too much glue and contaminate the rest. I wait until the drips tack
and then scrape them off in semi-solid form. Prefinishing the rails
and stiles before machining and it saves a lot of headaches, too, even
if you have to refinish later. You'll never get a glue mark if you do.


As always, thanks in advance.

Wait'll you get out invoices, duuuude.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

As always, thanks in advance.

- I just do them flat on their back on a table with light clamping
pressure.
- I do the stiles a little long and the rails a hair fat. Let the
stiles hang at each end and trim flush and to size at the TS later
- I never woory about square but I am typically using cope and stick
joinery and cut the rails super square and flushing up with clamps
just squares everything up on it's own. Normal procedure for furniture
building in my camp. Square parts, square assembly.
- If I needed to square things using your method, I would use a clamp
across the diagonal to draw it square.
- Yes the splines could swell in width specifically. I always under
cut them a 16th at least in width.
- Wiping glue away with a wet rag (a real normisim) is "OK" but you
need to really wipe it or you are just making it worse. I prefer to
wait 30 minutes and use a scraper or cheap chisel or sharpened putty
kife to pull off rubbery remains.

Greg Guarino wrote:
I'm making two panel cabinet doors. Got all the pieces made and
(mostly) sanded. Yesterday I decided to try to glue them up. I got
one done, but not without a fair amount of angst and a flurry of
unkind utterances in the direction of the wood, tools and the
universe in general.
I spent my commute to work this morning musing on what I might have
done differently.

As per suggestions here, I made the panel a little small, and didn't
apply any glue to hold it in. I put one of the stiles in the bench
vise and built the rest of the door up from there. Thus the door was
essentially on its side during the process. Like so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...3917/lightbox/

Once I got it square I laid it on the bench and clamped it lightly.

I had three problems.

1. Squaring up: Once I got the last piece on (the top piece in this
orientation) I put a framing square to one corner. It was off. No
surprise there, but adjusting it (with a rubber mallet) seemed more
problematic than I had expected. Having to tap it, then check, then
tap, then check, then ... was tedious, especially when I needed to
tap one of the rails *outward*.

2. Which brings me to the second problem. I have two black rubber
mallets. I used the small one mostly; 8 oz., I think. Although I used
a piece of scrap against the inside edge of the rail to give me a
bigger target to hit, I still managed to put a black scuff mark on
the panel. Luckily, the mark sanded out before I went through what I
have learned is a very thin veneer, but I'd like to avoid that on the
next one.
3. In the end the worst problem was that there was a slight gap
between the rails and stiles, a gap that wasn't there when I dry fit
the pieces. I doubt that anyone will notice this in the finished
location (a few inches off the floor), but it disappoints me and I'd
like to learn from whatever mistake I made.

First of all, all your pieces need to be square and opposite pieces need to
be the same length. Ditto any mill work on joints.

I imagine everyone has their own way of squaring stuff. Here are some
thoughts...

1. Glue up two adjacent sides assuring they are square. Glue up the other
pair, squared also. When dry, insert panel into one pair and attach the
other pair. Downside is time.

2. If you are doing all at a time and stuff isn't square then you have a
rhomboid. Easiest fix is a clamp across the acute & diagonally opposite
corners (I've done that many times, never a hammer). Lacking a clamp, put
the appropriate side against something solid and straight and push from the
opposite side.

If you had a gap after gluing and none when dry fit then your panel was not
inserted fully. It *really* helps to slightly chamfer all edges of a panel.
Joints should be snug but not so snug that you have to draw them together
with a hammer or by heavy clamping. In the case of a panel, even if the fit
isn't super tight, the stile or rail can bow slightly and that can make
inserting the panel a hore...the chamfering helps. In the case of mortice
and tenon joints, if there is no place for excess glue to go it can keep the
rails and stiles from totally closing; if the joint is not super tight, it
will ooze out but may require heavy clamping to get the ooze; a slightly
short tenon will give a home for excess glue.

If you want to fix the gap, a thin saw kerf and glued in piece of veneer
will do it. If it is going to be painted, Bondo or auto glazing putty.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 11/28/2011 12:20 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:34:25 -0500, Greg
wrote:

I'm making two panel cabinet doors. Got all the pieces made and (mostly)
sanded. Yesterday I decided to try to glue them up. I got one done, but
not without a fair amount of angst and a flurry of unkind utterances in
the direction of the wood, tools and the universe in general.

That's PFTC.

Damn. And what's with all the AOFDUs ?
(Acronyms Old Folks Don't Understand)

I spent my commute to work this morning musing on what I might have done
differently.

As per suggestions here, I made the panel a little small, and didn't
apply any glue to hold it in. I put one of the stiles in the bench vise
and built the rest of the door up from there. Thus the door was
essentially on its side during the process. Like so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...3917/lightbox/

Once I got it square I laid it on the bench and clamped it lightly.

I had three problems.

1. Squaring up: Once I got the last piece on (the top piece in this
orientation) I put a framing square to one corner. It was off. No
surprise there, but adjusting it (with a rubber mallet) seemed more
problematic than I had expected. Having to tap it, then check, then tap,
then check, then ... was tedious, especially when I needed to tap one of
the rails *outward*.

Next time, try using mortise and tenon joinery instead of splines. It
helps keep your panels flat and square without trying.

Sounds like a couple of notches above my current tool complement and
skill set, especially for such narrow stock (3/4"). Unless tongue &
groove counts as mortise and tenon. Still requires bits I don't have though.

2. Which brings me to the second problem. I have two black rubber
mallets. I used the small one mostly; 8 oz., I think. Although I used a
piece of scrap against the inside edge of the rail to give me a bigger
target to hit, I still managed to put a black scuff mark on the panel.
Luckily, the mark sanded out before I went through what I have learned
is a very thin veneer, but I'd like to avoid that on the next one.

Either get a Nupla replaceable head mallet, or get a urethane mallet.
They're scuff-free. http://goo.gl/JPBZR or http://goo.gl/QnrWQ

Festive looking too.

3. In the end the worst problem was that there was a slight gap between
the rails and stiles, a gap that wasn't there when I dry fit the pieces.

Bondo is your friend.gd&r

I'm counting on myopia and inattentiveness.

I doubt that anyone will notice this in the finished location (a few
inches off the floor), but it disappoints me and I'd like to learn from
whatever mistake I made.

Here is my own assessment of my mistakes and ideas for improvement.

1. I'm planning to make a jig of sorts, even though I have only one more
door to glue up. I would assemble the door laying down on the bench
instead of vertically. I'd make a (shallow) U-shaped jig that would hold
the first stile snugly in position on the back of my bench. The side
pieces of the jig would be just long enough to act as "stops" for the
rails. I'd then make corner marks on the bench top itself (on painter's
tape). I'm hoping that such marks will show me exactly where the corners
of the finished piece should end up when it is square, rather than
having to reapply the framing square (or worse, remeasure the diagonals)
after each mallet blow.

Not enough time to answer this one.


2. To avoid scuff marks, I figure to use a thicker block with some sort
of thin material under it to protect the face of the panel.

Yes, use a push stick of sorts. It protects the corners of the wood.

3. This one has me perplexed. The splines I used in the joints fit
pretty tightly even when dry, but I'm pretty sure that gap wasn't there
in the dry-fit. Is it possible that the splines (or the wood in the
grooves) swelled a little from the moisture in the glue? (Titebond). If
so, maybe I should shave down the splines just a bit.

There should be room for glue on either edge of the spline (ie: if the
grooves are each 3/8" deep, the spline should be less than 3/4" tall,
maybe 5/8. And, yes, they will grow just a bit with moisture from the
glue, but that gap you have may close up a little when dry.

I didn't count on that. Maybe next time. What if I was really picky
about the spline filling the groove as seen from the end? What if I did
have one of those fancy tongue & groove sets? Would I still need to
leave a gap?

I should add that
I was taught in High School (back when some of the trees this lumber
came from from were young) to wipe off excess glue that squeezes out
with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

Your high school teacher did you a disservice. Wet rags can flush out
too much glue and contaminate the rest. I wait until the drips tack
and then scrape them off in semi-solid form.

Wouldn't work on any glue that dried where the chamfered rail and stile
meet, would it?

Prefinishing the rails
and stiles before machining and it saves a lot of headaches, too, even
if you have to refinish later. You'll never get a glue mark if you do.

Now that sounds like a good idea. In fact, I believe that's what I did
on my last significant project, although I can't remember why. I assume
a couple of coats before gluing and the rest after is acceptable?

As always, thanks in advance.

Wait'll you get out invoices, duuuude.

You'll have to get in line.

On 11/28/2011 2:46 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

As always, thanks in advance.

- I just do them flat on their back on a table with light clamping
pressure.
- I do the stiles a little long and the rails a hair fat. Let the
stiles hang at each end and trim flush and to size at the TS later

Don't know if I'd have thought of that, but I don't have a table saw.
There is the prospect of one entering my orbit, if not my actual house,
so I'll store that idea away for later.

- I never woory about square but I am typically using cope and stick
joinery and cut the rails super square and flushing up with clamps
just squares everything up on it's own. Normal procedure for furniture
building in my camp. Square parts, square assembly.

Just looked up cope and stick. Interesting, but probably not for me for
right now anyway.

- If I needed to square things using your method, I would use a clamp
across the diagonal to draw it square.

I even thought of that, but visions of solidifying glue clouded my
thinking in the heat of the moment. Sounds more controllable, especially
if I make myself little "corners" to give the clamp a flat surface to
mate with. .

- Yes the splines could swell in width specifically. I always under
cut them a 16th at least in width.

That I will definitely do. With a plane, I suppose.

- Wiping glue away with a wet rag (a real normisim) is "OK" but you
need to really wipe it or you are just making it worse.

By "worse", I imagine you mean "soaking it into the wood", rather than
just having it lay on top without a good bond.

I prefer to
wait 30 minutes and use a scraper or cheap chisel or sharpened putty
kife to pull off rubbery remains.

I'll give your advice a try. Thanks

By "worse", I imagine you mean "soaking it into the wood", rather than
just having it lay on top without a good bond.

Yes, if you just smear it around it dries and gets in the way of any
staining or even stops adhesion of varnish on raw (non-colored) wood
and will show up under the finish.

Depending on how it squeezes out I guess I would say I "Usually" try
to skim it off later but if it smears out then I'll sponge it off with
water. It does take some extra time and effort to be carreful not to
disturbe the squeeze and to check back and wait for the best time to
skim it. To early and it just pops the bubble and smears fresh glue
and to late and it is solid.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:56:27 -0500, Greg Guarino
wrote:

On 11/28/2011 12:20 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
That's PFTC.

Damn. And what's with all the AOFDUs ?
(Acronyms Old Folks Don't Understand)

Old folks are the only ones who understand Par For The Course because
newfangled kids don't -play- golf, even if the clubhouse is wired for
WIFI.


1. Squaring up: Once I got the last piece on (the top piece in this
orientation) I put a framing square to one corner. It was off. No
surprise there, but adjusting it (with a rubber mallet) seemed more
problematic than I had expected. Having to tap it, then check, then tap,
then check, then ... was tedious, especially when I needed to tap one of
the rails *outward*.

Next time, try using mortise and tenon joinery instead of splines. It
helps keep your panels flat and square without trying.

Sounds like a couple of notches above my current tool complement and
skill set, especially for such narrow stock (3/4"). Unless tongue &
groove counts as mortise and tenon. Still requires bits I don't have though.

It requires either a mortising chisel+backsaw or
tablesaw/router/mortising machine setup.


2. Which brings me to the second problem. I have two black rubber
mallets. I used the small one mostly; 8 oz., I think. Although I used a
piece of scrap against the inside edge of the rail to give me a bigger
target to hit, I still managed to put a black scuff mark on the panel.
Luckily, the mark sanded out before I went through what I have learned
is a very thin veneer, but I'd like to avoid that on the next one.

Either get a Nupla replaceable head mallet, or get a urethane mallet.
They're scuff-free. http://goo.gl/JPBZR or http://goo.gl/QnrWQ

Festive looking too.

Aren't they, though?


3. In the end the worst problem was that there was a slight gap between
the rails and stiles, a gap that wasn't there when I dry fit the pieces.

Bondo is your friend.gd&r

I'm counting on myopia and inattentiveness.

What, you're not painting them?


There should be room for glue on either edge of the spline (ie: if the
grooves are each 3/8" deep, the spline should be less than 3/4" tall,
maybe 5/8. And, yes, they will grow just a bit with moisture from the
glue, but that gap you have may close up a little when dry.

I didn't count on that. Maybe next time. What if I was really picky
about the spline filling the groove as seen from the end? What if I did
have one of those fancy tongue & groove sets? Would I still need to
leave a gap?

Hopefully, the T&G sets are different lengths.


I should add that
I was taught in High School (back when some of the trees this lumber
came from from were young) to wipe off excess glue that squeezes out
with a very wet rag, which I did. Maybe yet more moisture to add into
the equation?

Your high school teacher did you a disservice. Wet rags can flush out
too much glue and contaminate the rest. I wait until the drips tack
and then scrape them off in semi-solid form.

Wouldn't work on any glue that dried where the chamfered rail and stile
meet, would it?

Yes.


Prefinishing the rails
and stiles before machining and it saves a lot of headaches, too, even
if you have to refinish later. You'll never get a glue mark if you do.

Now that sounds like a good idea. In fact, I believe that's what I did
on my last significant project, although I can't remember why. I assume
a couple of coats before gluing and the rest after is acceptable?

Yes, anything to seal the wood before gluing prevents the glue from
preventing finish from sticking. If you do that, you can use a
thumbnail to flick the excess glue off. It's great.


As always, thanks in advance.

Wait'll you get out invoices, duuuude.

You'll have to get in line.

Youse wants ta wake up wit a horse head in your bed, son?

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 11/28/2011 3:46 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:


First of all, all your pieces need to be square and opposite pieces need to
be the same length. Ditto any mill work on joints.


Same length I got covered. I cut them all at once after squaring the far
ends. The width and consequently the parallel orientation of the sides
is a different story. I don't have a table saw, and relied on the lumber
yard to rip the stock to width. I even told them that the exact width
was not important, just make the two boards parallel and equal.

Live and learn, I guess. But that imperfection I already knew about from
the dry fit, and it wasn't too bad. The gap I mentioned here only
occurred after I applied the glue.

I imagine everyone has their own way of squaring stuff. Here are some
thoughts...

1. Glue up two adjacent sides assuring they are square. Glue up the other
pair, squared also. When dry, insert panel into one pair and attach the
other pair. Downside is time.

Less stress though. Maybe good for an inexperienced person like me.

2. If you are doing all at a time and stuff isn't square then you have a
rhomboid. Easiest fix is a clamp across the acute& diagonally opposite
corners (I've done that many times, never a hammer). Lacking a clamp, put
the appropriate side against something solid and straight and push from the
opposite side.

This is what I intend to try. I do have the appropriate clamps.

If you had a gap after gluing and none when dry fit then your panel was not
inserted fully.

I don't think that was the problem. I briefly pulled off one of the
stiles and found that the splines protruded more than the panel. With
the benefit of hindsight, I suppose I should have pulled it all apart at
that point and scraped off the glue. It might have been difficult to get
it out of the groove though.

It *really* helps to slightly chamfer all edges of a panel.

I filed the edges that I cut, but not the factory edges.

Joints should be snug but not so snug that you have to draw them together
with a hammer or by heavy clamping.

My mistake then. My joints fit, but tightly enough that some significant
persuasion is necessary.

In the case of a panel, even if the fit
isn't super tight, the stile or rail can bow slightly and that can make
inserting the panel a hore...the chamfering helps.

The panel bowed more, and it was a minor chore, but not too bad.

In the case of mortice
and tenon joints, if there is no place for excess glue to go it can keep the
rails and stiles from totally closing; if the joint is not super tight, it
will ooze out but may require heavy clamping to get the ooze; a slightly
short tenon will give a home for excess glue.

I'll be planing down the splines for the next door.

If you want to fix the gap, a thin saw kerf and glued in piece of veneer
will do it. If it is going to be painted, Bondo or auto glazing putty.

No paint. I'm not partial to painted wood, even when it is well done.
And I'm sure that "well done" wouldn't apply to any paint job of mine. .

On 11/28/2011 9:34 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I'm making two panel cabinet doors. Got all the pieces made and (mostly)
sanded. Yesterday I decided to try to glue them up. I got one done, but
not without a fair amount of angst and a flurry of unkind utterances in
the direction of the wood, tools and the universe in general.

I spent my commute to work this morning musing on what I might have done
differently.

As per suggestions here, I made the panel a little small, and didn't
apply any glue to hold it in. I put one of the stiles in the bench vise
and built the rest of the door up from there. Thus the door was
essentially on its side during the process. Like so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...3917/lightbox/


I build lots and lots of these type doors. To tell you the truth I
don't give squareness a second thought as the doors tend to come out
square naturally. If your cuts are square and you are using good clamps
the corners will naturally square themselves, this is with the
assumption that you see no gaps at the joints.

First off are you using a Bessey K-body "style" clamp? These are great
for helping insure that things remain square.

In stead of splines, try using stub tennon. Cut a center grove in all
the rails and stiles to receive you center panel and then cut tenons on
the ends of the rails to fill the groves. Done deal.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 07:35:37 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
In stead of splines, try using stub tennon. Cut a center grove in all
the rails and stiles to receive you center panel and then cut tenons on
the ends of the rails to fill the groves. Done deal.

And, an easy way to go with this is using a rail and stile router bit
set. One of the best investments I've made buying router bits. A 3hp
router is highly recommended to drive these bits.

On 11/28/2011 4:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/28/2011 2:46 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

- I never woory about square but I am typically using cope and stick
joinery and cut the rails super square and flushing up with clamps
just squares everything up on it's own. Normal procedure for furniture
building in my camp. Square parts, square assembly.

Just looked up cope and stick. Interesting, but probably not for me for
right now anyway.

Cope and stick has nothing to do with square. When doing frame and
panel make certain your cuts to length are perfect 90°. Cut wide stock
(at least 2x as wide as the rail or stile) to length first, then rip to
width. Now each pair of rail or stile will be EXACTLY the same length
and you have little to worry about as far as square goes, things will
just be square on assembly unless you force them "unsquare".

- If I needed to square things using your method, I would use a clamp
across the diagonal to draw it square.

- Wiping glue away with a wet rag (a real normisim) is "OK" but you
need to really wipe it or you are just making it worse.

By "worse", I imagine you mean "soaking it into the wood", rather than
just having it lay on top without a good bond.

You can wipe with a damp cloth, or wait till it dries some and hope to
sand off what soaks into the wood. The key with glue is to use just
enough, no more, no less. If you get tiny beads sneaking out of the
joints, OK, if you get gobs of glue running out ala Norm or that Scott
guy, no good. Use a solder flux brush to apply glue sparingly. A
little practice and you will get it. Remember end grain doesn't glue
worth a damn, so applying glue to the shoulders is doing nothing but
insuring gobs of glue everywhere it shouldn't be.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 11/30/2011 12:39 PM, Jack wrote:
On 11/28/2011 4:26 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 11/28/2011 2:46 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

- I never woory about square but I am typically using cope and stick
joinery and cut the rails super square and flushing up with clamps
just squares everything up on it's own. Normal procedure for furniture
building in my camp. Square parts, square assembly.

Just looked up cope and stick. Interesting, but probably not for me for
right now anyway.

Cope and stick has nothing to do with square. When doing frame and panel
make certain your cuts to length are perfect 90°. Cut wide stock (at
least 2x as wide as the rail or stile) to length first, then rip to
width. Now each pair of rail or stile will be EXACTLY the same length
and you have little to worry about as far as square goes, things will
just be square on assembly unless you force them "unsquare".

I did the opposite: the lumber yard ripped the oak to width and I cut it
to length. The lengths were quite exact; all four stiles were cut
simultaneously...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...6462/lightbox/

.... as were the four rails. However, the lumber yard's ripping was less
than stellar. There was maybe 1/16" or even 3//32" of variance, and not
just between the two pieces of stock, but between one end and the other
of one of the pieces.

I decided to let it go, mostly. I don't have a table saw. I did however
remake two of the rails that were just too out of whack. I did that with
a circular saw and guide rail.

None of it was perfect, but it was decent. The problem was as much my
own inexperience and anxiety about the ticking clock of the glue drying
as any actual misalignment.

- If I needed to square things using your method, I would use a clamp
across the diagonal to draw it square.

- Wiping glue away with a wet rag (a real normisim) is "OK" but you
need to really wipe it or you are just making it worse.

By "worse", I imagine you mean "soaking it into the wood", rather than
just having it lay on top without a good bond.

You can wipe with a damp cloth, or wait till it dries some and hope to
sand off what soaks into the wood. The key with glue is to use just
enough, no more, no less.

I've become unsure about this over the years, not that I've done many
projects in that time. I seem to vaguely remember the word "sparing"
from somewhere, maybe high school, maybe my Dad. But I also have visions
of larger amounts of glue. Maybe those images seeped in from PBS?

If sparing is good, sparing it will be. Is the amount of glue that would
result from "painting" it on with a brush enough?

If you get tiny beads sneaking out of the
joints, OK, if you get gobs of glue running out ala Norm or that Scott
guy, no good.

I don't think I know who "Scott" is.

Use a solder flux brush to apply glue sparingly. A little
practice and you will get it. Remember end grain doesn't glue worth a
damn, so applying glue to the shoulders is doing nothing but insuring
gobs of glue everywhere it shouldn't be.

There's a good tip. I was already quite "sparing" in those areas, but I
won't bother with them at all on the next unit.

If sparing is good, sparing it will be. Is the amount of glue that would
result from "painting" it on with a brush enough?

When I do edge gluing I like to wipe the glue down to a thin enough
film that I can see through it easily. So not to much is needed.

Wood glue is not gap filling so it only glues well where one piece is
wood is in contact with the other and pressure helps. So a vert thin
film is all that is needed. More porous woods can use a bit more.

Long grain to long grain is the best for wood glur but end grain does
glue somewhat. You can increase the end grain adhesion (I am told) by
"sizing" the joint. Spread thin glue on the end grain first and let it
dry mostly before joining the pieces. Then glue normally and the glue-
to-glue retension is a little better than with an unsized joint.

Also epoxy doesn't care about grain, it is just strong everywhere and
can be gap filling too.

On 11/30/2011 8:21 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 07:35:37 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
In stead of splines, try using stub tennon. Cut a center grove in all
the rails and stiles to receive you center panel and then cut tenons on
the ends of the rails to fill the groves. Done deal.

And, an easy way to go with this is using a rail and stile router bit
set. One of the best investments I've made buying router bits. A 3hp
router is highly recommended to drive these bits.

I don't use the rail and stile bits any more if using a regular flat
panel for the center. I instead use a flat grind TS blade to cut a flat
square bottom. Make two passes flipping the board end for end to insure
the groove being centered. I use a dado set to cut the stub tenons.

On 11/30/2011 12:39 PM, Jack wrote:
If you get tiny beads sneaking out of the joints, OK, if you get gobs of
glue running out ala Norm or that Scott guy, no good. Use a solder flux
brush to apply glue sparingly. A little practice and you will get it.
Remember end grain doesn't glue worth a damn, so applying glue to the
shoulders is doing nothing but insuring gobs of glue everywhere it
shouldn't be.

I just glued up the second door, using some of the suggestions from this
thread. I am happy to report that this one went much more smoothly and
without any need for what my Dad calls "commemorating the saints"
(swearing).

Here are some of the suggestions I implemented:

I planed down the splines just a little in both dimensions as they were
too tight on the first door.

I used a plane to slightly chamfer the edges of the panel.

I used a tiny art brush to apply the glue "sparingly" to the inside
surfaces of the slot. This was a great idea, by the way. Thanks to
whomever suggested it.

I didn't apply any glue to the "cheeks", only to the splines and slots.

I applied only light clamping pressure.

As a result there was hardly any glue squeeze-out, but I'm pretty sure I
made solid joints anyway. The brush made it easy to cover every spot
that needed glue without using excess. I did not end up squaring the
door up with a clamp. It was pretty close to begin with; a couple of
very light mallet taps got it nice and square.

Thanks again to all.

Thanks again to all.

Well, you are a pro at this now. Nect time you are at Harbor Freight
buy a bag of flux brushes. The brushes used by plumbers when brazing
copper pipe. The bristles are too long but you can clip them short
with scissors or a ravor knife.

On 12/3/2011 2:58 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Thanks again to all.

Well, you are a pro at this now. Nect time you are at Harbor Freight
buy a bag of flux brushes. The brushes used by plumbers when brazing
copper pipe. The bristles are too long but you can clip them short
with scissors or a ravor knife.

Just got back from HD. One step ahead of you.. I already bought the flux
brushes.

Hmmm... Now I'm thinking I'm one step behind *myself*. I've been having
this vision of a bundle of flux brushes wrapped with a rubber band. I
think I just realized here I had seen it; in my plumbing toolbox.

Oh well. I'm sure I'll use them eventually.