We have an old wooden house and whenever, I remove/repair clapboards or
trim, I would like to be able to apply via either spray or brush some
type of long-lasting wood preservative. I would apply this both to any
old wood exposed and any new wood added.

I know in new construction, people spray on various borate solutions.

Any specific products to recommend that are readily available (without
requiring certification or license)?

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:08:07 -0400, blueman wrote:

We have an old wooden house and whenever, I remove/repair clapboards or
trim, I would like to be able to apply via either spray or brush some
type of long-lasting wood preservative. I would apply this both to any
old wood exposed and any new wood added.

I know in new construction, people spray on various borate solutions.

Any specific products to recommend that are readily available (without
requiring certification or license)?

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/timbor-p-144.html

--
Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.
-- Robert J. Sawyer

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:08:07 -0400, blueman wrote:

We have an old wooden house and whenever, I remove/repair clapboards
or trim, I would like to be able to apply via either spray or brush
some type of long-lasting wood preservative. I would apply this both
to any old wood exposed and any new wood added.

I know in new construction, people spray on various borate solutions.

Any specific products to recommend that are readily available
(without requiring certification or license)?

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/timbor-p-144.html

Timbor and the associated products, are great products that work very well.
Those of us that live in log homes know these products pretty well. Just be
aware that any of these products only work on bare wood. They rely upon
absorbtion, to penetrate the wood and offer the protection they promise.
Any existing finish on the wood will prevent that, and the product will
simply wash away in the next rain.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:08:07 -0400, blueman
wrote:
We have an old wooden house and whenever, I remove/repair clapboards
or trim, I would like to be able to apply via either spray or brush
some type of long-lasting wood preservative. I would apply this both
to any old wood exposed and any new wood added.

I know in new construction, people spray on various borate
solutions. Any specific products to recommend that are readily available
(without requiring certification or license)?

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/timbor-p-144.html

Timbor and the associated products, are great products that work very
well. Those of us that live in log homes know these products pretty
well. Just be aware that any of these products only work on bare
wood. They rely upon absorbtion, to penetrate the wood and offer the
protection they promise. Any existing finish on the wood will prevent
that, and the product will simply wash away in the next rain.

Mike, I'd be very interested in hearing about your log house experiences
either here or privately (use "reply to sender" for address).

My wife's mother and step father built one here in Central Florida in 1996.
He is was the GC. He was/is an incompetent idiot and shoudn't be qalloed
within a half mile of any construction project. Long story short, wife's
mother died, step father neglected things like insurance, taxes and
maintenance so my wife now owns the house and we are faced with the project
of getting it into decent enough shape to sell.

First floor is cedar logs, second story conventional. Outside second floor
is board and batten cedar. Neither has ever seen any preservative, water
repellant or paint. I told him he should apply, he said, "No, we want it to
weather natural". Oaf.

Well, it "weathered natural". Board & batten is badly
checked/split/warped/split. Logs have deep splits and are a nasty, dark
brown-black but otherwise OK with the exception of the corners...some water
penetration (to inside) at the corners. He tried to mitigate all by
smearing caulk around. It did nothing except act as a wedge to further the
splitting. Oaf.

Board & batten will probably be ripped off and replaced with vinyl. Kinda
reluctant to do so because I fear what we may find...we just replaced 18' of
stud wall - including 2x12 SYP beam - under a couple of upstairs windows
because the whole wall from window bottoms to top course of logs was badly
rotted. Rot was caused because the windows were sitting on a flat "sill"
and that sill didn't extend outward far enough to cover the sheathing. Oaf.

Mainly, I am interested in your experiences with the log part. The corner
problem probably arises from the necessity to lop off the tongues there and
improper caulking. Any ideas to fix? Ditto the water stains on the
interior? Overall (topical materials)?

BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny fraction of
the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig. Biggest problem with
any of the boron things is that they are water soluble. Which is why I
jealously guard my last remaining part of a gallon of copper napthanate

--

dadiOH
____________________________


There are two commonly available inexpensive materials that will kill rot in
wood and prevent its recurrence. First, there are borates (borax-boric acid
mixtures) which have an established record in preventing rot in new wood and
in killing rot organisms and wood-destroying insects in infested wood.

Second, there is Glycol, most readily available as auto antifreeze-coolant.
Glycol is toxic to the whole spectrum of organisms from staphylococcus
bacteria to mammals.

Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are clear liquids used in antifreeze
and deicing solutions. Exposure to large amounts of Ethylene Glycol can
damage the kidneys, heart, and nervous system. Propylene Glycol is generally
regarded as safe for use in food. Antifreeze that is sold as "Earth
Friendly", "Environmentally Safe", etc are generally based on
Propylene...Make Sure You Buy The Propylene Glycol, NOT the Ethylene!!!

Source of Information : Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
(ATSDR). 1997. Toxicological profile for ethylene glycol and propylene
glycol. Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public
Health Service.
_________________

Both borate solutions and glycol penetrate dry and wet wood well because
they are water-soluble; in fact, penetration by glycol is especially helped
by its extreme hygroscopicity -- its strong attraction for water. For both,
the fact that they are water-soluble means they are not permanent solutions
to rot in wood that is continually exposed to water-below the waterline and
in ground-where they will eventually be extracted-dissolved out.

I have had good results by adding a water soluable "Sealer" to my solutions
which make them more water resistant.

There are two types of borate products commercially available for treating
wood, Tim-bor®).. A powder you mix with water and spay apply to all wood
including studs, crawl spaces, subfloor, rafters and exterior sheathing. It
provides a termite and rot resistant envelope treatment that can last for 30
years or more.

Treating an existing problem is best done with Bora-Care®).. It is a liquid
concentrate that is mixed with water and sprayed on the affected wood and
all of the wood surrounding that area.
A solution of Tim-bor can also be used if the wood has a moisture content of
20% or greater.

Their equivalents and more concentrated solutions can be easily prepared
from borax, boric acid, and antifreeze at much lower cost.

Glycol by itself has one big advantage over solutions of borates in water.
Glycol penetrates rapidly through all paint, varnish, and oil finishes
(except epoxy and polyurethanes) without lifting or damaging those finishes
in any way. You can treat all of the wood without removing any finish. Once
bare wood has been treated with glycol or the borate solutions and become
dry to the touch it can be finished or glued. If a borate solution leaves
white residues on the surface, it will have to be washed off with water and
the surface allowed to dry.

Glycol's toxicity to humans is low enough that it has to be deliberately
ingested (about a half cup for a 150 lb. human); many millions of gallons
are used annually with few precautions and without incident. It should not
be left where children or pets can get at it, as smaller doses would harm
them. The lethal dose of borates is smaller than of glycol, but the bitter
taste makes accidental consumption less likely.



BORATE WOOD PRESERVATIVES:
COMMERCIAL AND HOME-BREWED
Commercial:
Tim-Bor®: Solid sodium octaborate; dissolves in water to make approx. a 10%
solution containing 6.6% borate (B2O3); about $13/lb. Covers about 200 sq
ft.

Bora-Care®: 40% solution of sodium octaborate in ethylene glycol; 27% borate
content; $90/gal. for the concentrate.

Home-Brew Water Solution of Borates:
Based on U.S. Navy spec. of 60% borax-40% boric acid (this ratio gives the
maximum solubility of borates in water);

#1. This is equiv. to Tim-Bor®... 6 parts of borax and 4 parts of boric
acid.
To prepare one gallon of a 10% solution, start with an oversize container
(larger than 1 gallon ) add 1 lb. of powder to appx 3 qts of water agitating
until the powder has dissolved, then add additional water to end up with 1
gallon of mix. To prepare a 15% solution, add 1.5 lbs. of powder, then add
the remainder of the water and mix as previously. Approximately 1 gallon of
solution will be needed to treat 200 square feet of wood surface area.
(Note: solutions should be used immediately and not stored.) .

EXAMPLE: Prepare 5 gallons of 10% solution:
Add four (4) gallons of clear, warm water to a six-gallon bucket.
Add five (5) lbs. of powder while gently stirring.
Add enough water to bring the final volume to 5 gallons, and continue to
stir until all of the powder has dissolved.
Agitate the solution briefly at the beginning of each spray job, or after
the solution has been standing for an extended period.
Do not spray or spill onto soil or foliage.

Apply two applications of a 10% solution to wood surfaces by brush or spray.
Apply one application of a 15% solution to wood surfaces by brush or spray.
Applications may be made to wood structures including decks, fences, steps,
sheds, barns and other out-buildings.

#2: This is equivalent to Bora-Care®
Prepare the concentrate:
Mix 1 Gallon glycol antifreeze, 4 1/2 pounds borax, 3 1/2 pounds boric acid.
Mix the ingredients and heat till boiling gently. Boil off water until a
candy thermometer shows 260°F. This removes most of the water of
crystallization in the borax.
This solution is stable at 40°F and has a borate content of 26%. This is
equivalent to Bora-Care® at about $90/gal. for the concentrate. The
concentrate must be diluted with an equal volume of water before being
applied.

Application: Add 1 gallon of water to every gallon of concentrate and stir
thoroughly until solution is completely uniform. Always use diluted within
24 hours after mixing. If kept for longer periods of time, the active
ingredient can drop out of the solution.

Note: is toxic to plants and shrubbery; if necessary, cover plants, root
systems and surrounding soil with plastic to avoid contamination. Apply only
to bare wood. Remove any finish or water repellent coating before applying .
Wood surfaces should be free of dirt and other contaminates. Apply diluted
by spray or brush to all exposed wood surfaces. It may occasionally be
necessary to apply more than one coat of to attain the recommended
application rate. This is especially true for larger, smooth surfaced wood
members. Wood surfaces should be allowed to dry for at least 2 hours between
applications. Do not apply in the rain or snow. If inclement weather is
expected, protect exposed treated surface with a plastic tarp for at least
24 hours after treatment. One gallon of concentrate will treat up to 800
board feet of wood. Only diluted should be applied to any wood surface.
Prior to application, check wood surfaces for an existing water repellent
finish by spraying a small amount of water onto the surface of the wood or
logs. If the water beads up or is not absorbed into the wood, a finish is
present which must be removed before applying the diluted solution.

dadiOH wrote:

Mike, I'd be very interested in hearing about your log house
experiences either here or privately (use "reply to sender" for
address).
My wife's mother and step father built one here in Central Florida in
1996. He is was the GC. He was/is an incompetent idiot and shoudn't
be qalloed

ALLOWED

dadiOH wrote:


Mike, I'd be very interested in hearing about your log house
experiences either here or privately (use "reply to sender" for
address).

Feel free to email me. We've owned our home for over 25 years and we've
probably made or encountered every mistake that could be made, as well as
having made some of the better decisions/moves. Either way - we have some
time tested knowledge and experience.

--

-Mike-

"dadiOH" writes:
BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny fraction of
the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig. Biggest problem with
any of the boron things is that they are water soluble. Which is why I
jealously guard my last remaining part of a gallon of copper napthanate

Very helpful info on DIY borate solution.

Some questions...
- For Borax, does one just buy something like 20 Mule Team Borax laundry
detergent? Or is that not pure Borax? Or is there a more
cost-effective, easily-available source?

- For Boric acid, can I use "Boric Acid Roach power"? Or is that not
likely to be pure Boric Acid? Or is there a more cost-effective,
easily-available source?

- For propylene glycol, does one just buy anti-freeze? Or is that
diluted? Or is there a more a cost-effective, easily-available source

- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?
Can I skip the boiling off step?

"dadiOH" writes:
blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:
BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny
fraction of the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig.
Biggest problem with any of the boron things is that they are water
soluble. Which is why I jealously guard my last remaining part of a
gallon of copper napthanate

Very helpful info on DIY borate solution.

Some questions...
- For Borax, does one just buy something like 20 Mule Team Borax
laundry detergent? Or is that not pure Borax? Or is there a more
cost-effective, easily-available source?

Anything that lists borax as the contents. I don't know if 20 Mule Team
Borax has anything else in it or not, label should say. Janitorial supply
places are a good source.


- For Boric acid, can I use "Boric Acid Roach power"? Or is that not
likely to be pure Boric Acid? Or is there a more cost-effective,
easily-available source?

Probably, the "roach powder" also has something added - flour, sugar - to
act as bait. You can get USP boric acid at any pharmacy.

- For propylene glycol, does one just buy anti-freeze? Or is that
diluted? Or is there a more a cost-effective, easily-available source

Regular anti-freeze is ethylene glycol. It is quite toxic, especially if
ingested. Antifreeze that is sold as "Earth Friendly", "Environmentally
Safe", etc are generally based on Propylene; still toxic to a degree, I
think, but much less so. Again, the label should tell you. AFAIK, you can
use either, just dont ingest them.

- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?

It is to get sufficient water out of the mix so that the mixture can get to
260 fegrees F. The purpose is to remove the "water of
crystallization"...water which is necessary for the solid materials to
remain in a crystalline state; once removed, they will go into solution and
remain there when diluted later.

Can I skip the boiling off step?

NO!
Thanks for the helpful replies... I will post back if I find any
interesting or non-obvious sources of the above materials...

blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:
BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny
fraction of the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig.
Biggest problem with any of the boron things is that they are water
soluble. Which is why I jealously guard my last remaining part of a
gallon of copper napthanate

Very helpful info on DIY borate solution.

Some questions...
- For Borax, does one just buy something like 20 Mule Team Borax
laundry detergent? Or is that not pure Borax? Or is there a more
cost-effective, easily-available source?

Anything that lists borax as the contents. I don't know if 20 Mule Team
Borax has anything else in it or not, label should say. Janitorial supply
places are a good source.


- For Boric acid, can I use "Boric Acid Roach power"? Or is that not
likely to be pure Boric Acid? Or is there a more cost-effective,
easily-available source?

Probably, the "roach powder" also has something added - flour, sugar - to
act as bait. You can get USP boric acid at any pharmacy.

- For propylene glycol, does one just buy anti-freeze? Or is that
diluted? Or is there a more a cost-effective, easily-available source

Regular anti-freeze is ethylene glycol. It is quite toxic, especially if
ingested. Antifreeze that is sold as "Earth Friendly", "Environmentally
Safe", etc are generally based on Propylene; still toxic to a degree, I
think, but much less so. Again, the label should tell you. AFAIK, you can
use either, just dont ingest them.

- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?

It is to get sufficient water out of the mix so that the mixture can get to
260 fegrees F. The purpose is to remove the "water of
crystallization"...water which is necessary for the solid materials to
remain in a crystalline state; once removed, they will go into solution and
remain there when diluted later.

Can I skip the boiling off step?

NO!

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

blueman wrote:


- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?
Can I skip the boiling off step?

So... why would you not direct this question to the manufacturer instead of
to a woodworking usenet newsgroup? Do you really know anybody here well
enough to take their word over the direct advice of the manufacturer?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" writes:

blueman wrote:


- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?
Can I skip the boiling off step?

So... why would you not direct this question to the manufacturer instead of
to a woodworking usenet newsgroup?
I doubt the manufacturer of Bora-Care would help me understand their
process so I could copy it and make my own DIY cheaper version :P


Do you really know anybody here well enough to take their word over
the direct advice of the manufacturer?

No more or less than I trust the people here for any other advice...
It's USENET, you ask a question, you get one or more answers, some seem
helpful & knowledgeable, some less so, and some are more trolls. You use
your judgment and see what makes sense. Frankly, trusting someone on
understanding the basic chemistry of why you need to boil off the water
first seems a lot less risky than trusting advice on even
run-of-the-mill woodworking and home repair processes that could be
dangerous to either you or to precious materials.

Indeed, dadiOH promptly provided a logical and scientifically reasonable
answer, so I am honestly not sure what was the purpose of your post...

blueman writes:
"dadiOH" writes:
blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:
BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny
fraction of the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig.
Biggest problem with any of the boron things is that they are water
soluble. Which is why I jealously guard my last remaining part of a
gallon of copper napthanate

Very helpful info on DIY borate solution.

Some questions...
- For Borax, does one just buy something like 20 Mule Team Borax
laundry detergent? Or is that not pure Borax? Or is there a more
cost-effective, easily-available source?

Anything that lists borax as the contents. I don't know if 20 Mule Team
Borax has anything else in it or not, label should say. Janitorial supply
places are a good source.


- For Boric acid, can I use "Boric Acid Roach power"? Or is that not
likely to be pure Boric Acid? Or is there a more cost-effective,
easily-available source?

Probably, the "roach powder" also has something added - flour, sugar - to
act as bait. You can get USP boric acid at any pharmacy.

- For propylene glycol, does one just buy anti-freeze? Or is that
diluted? Or is there a more a cost-effective, easily-available source

Regular anti-freeze is ethylene glycol. It is quite toxic, especially if
ingested. Antifreeze that is sold as "Earth Friendly", "Environmentally
Safe", etc are generally based on Propylene; still toxic to a degree, I
think, but much less so. Again, the label should tell you. AFAIK, you can
use either, just dont ingest them.

- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?

It is to get sufficient water out of the mix so that the mixture can get to
260 fegrees F. The purpose is to remove the "water of
crystallization"...water which is necessary for the solid materials to
remain in a crystalline state; once removed, they will go into solution and
remain there when diluted later.

Can I skip the boiling off step?

NO!
Thanks for the helpful replies... I will post back if I find any
interesting or non-obvious sources of the above materials...

OK... I did some research...
20 Mule Borax is 99.5% pure Borox with the remaining 0.5% being trace
minerals. Clearly good enough. I can find it at the local store for $4
for 76 ozs (just shy of 5 pounds) -- clearly dirt cheap.

I found Boric acid for $20 for 5 pounds at Grainger.


HOWEVER, I am having a hard time finding pure (non-diluted) propylene glycol
locally. I checked several auto stores and only found ethylene glycol
antifreeze except for marine antifreeze but it was only about 50%
concentration. I saw some sources online, but I was hoping to buy
locally.

Any suggestions?

blueman wrote:

HOWEVER, I am having a hard time finding pure (non-diluted) propylene
glycol locally. I checked several auto stores and only found ethylene
glycol antifreeze except for marine antifreeze but it was only about
50% concentration. I saw some sources online, but I was hoping to buy
locally.

Any suggestions?

Napa has it...
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...400_0006545694

but I don't know the concentration (MSDS says " 25%") and the flash point
(see MSDS) is worrisome.

When I have made the stuff, I used what was available. Probably the
ethylene. Yes, long term and/or intimate exposure can do bad stuff to you -
so they say - but neither fits this situation IMO, YMMV.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 01:30:09 -0400, blueman wrote:

blueman writes:
"dadiOH" writes:
blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:
BTW & FWIW, you can make your own boron preservative at a tiny
fraction of the $60-70 per gallon from your link, see below sig.
Biggest problem with any of the boron things is that they are water
soluble. Which is why I jealously guard my last remaining part of a
gallon of copper napthanate

Very helpful info on DIY borate solution.

Some questions...
- For Borax, does one just buy something like 20 Mule Team Borax
laundry detergent? Or is that not pure Borax? Or is there a more
cost-effective, easily-available source?

Anything that lists borax as the contents. I don't know if 20 Mule Team
Borax has anything else in it or not, label should say. Janitorial supply
places are a good source.


- For Boric acid, can I use "Boric Acid Roach power"? Or is that not
likely to be pure Boric Acid? Or is there a more cost-effective,
easily-available source?

Probably, the "roach powder" also has something added - flour, sugar - to
act as bait. You can get USP boric acid at any pharmacy.

- For propylene glycol, does one just buy anti-freeze? Or is that
diluted? Or is there a more a cost-effective, easily-available source

Regular anti-freeze is ethylene glycol. It is quite toxic, especially if
ingested. Antifreeze that is sold as "Earth Friendly", "Environmentally
Safe", etc are generally based on Propylene; still toxic to a degree, I
think, but much less so. Again, the label should tell you. AFAIK, you can
use either, just dont ingest them.

- The instructions for the Bora-Care equivalent suggest boiling off
water and then diluting with water before use. What is the reason for
boiling it off and then adding it back? Is it needed for long term
stability or is it just a way of making a lower volume concentrate?

It is to get sufficient water out of the mix so that the mixture can get to
260 fegrees F. The purpose is to remove the "water of
crystallization"...water which is necessary for the solid materials to
remain in a crystalline state; once removed, they will go into solution and
remain there when diluted later.

Can I skip the boiling off step?

NO!
Thanks for the helpful replies... I will post back if I find any
interesting or non-obvious sources of the above materials...

OK... I did some research...
20 Mule Borax is 99.5% pure Borox with the remaining 0.5% being trace
minerals. Clearly good enough. I can find it at the local store for $4
for 76 ozs (just shy of 5 pounds) -- clearly dirt cheap.

I found Boric acid for $20 for 5 pounds at Grainger.


HOWEVER, I am having a hard time finding pure (non-diluted) propylene glycol
locally. I checked several auto stores and only found ethylene glycol
antifreeze except for marine antifreeze but it was only about 50%
concentration. I saw some sources online, but I was hoping to buy
locally.

Any suggestions?

I'd go with a well-known, fully researched substance called TimBor.

My exterminator didn't like working with BoraCare because it was like
honey. It had to be mixed in warm water to spray properly and it
didn't like to be reheated, he said. The company uses TimBor
exclusively under houses.

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

Is that for the life insurance policy, or the property insurance?? grin

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:03:24 -0500,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

Is that for the life insurance policy, or the property insurance?? grin

C) All of the above.


--
Life is an escalator:
You can move forward or backward;
you can not remain still.
-- Patricia Russell-McCloud

Larry Jaques writes:

On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:03:24 -0500,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

Is that for the life insurance policy, or the property insurance?? grin

C) All of the above.


Considering that: Borax is a mild & earth friendly detergent and that
Boric acid is a pretty human-safe Roach killer and that Propylene Glycol
is almost edible, I wouldn't think this would have any effect on life
insurance. Also, at worst, this concoction will be a less effective
version of Bora-Care, so I can't imagine the property insurance being
upset that I treated something that otherwise would not even be treated.

It's scary that we live in such a liability-scared society that people
are frightened to use even minimally toxic ingredients...

"dadiOH" writes:

blueman wrote:

HOWEVER, I am having a hard time finding pure (non-diluted) propylene
glycol locally. I checked several auto stores and only found ethylene
glycol antifreeze except for marine antifreeze but it was only about
50% concentration. I saw some sources online, but I was hoping to buy
locally.

Any suggestions?

Napa has it...
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...400_0006545694

but I don't know the concentration (MSDS says " 25%") and the flash point
(see MSDS) is worrisome.

Well my guess is if MSDS says 25%, that is likely to be a lot closer to
25% than to 100%.
I saw some stuff at one of the chain auto parts stores that was 50% in
that the first ingredient was propylene glycol and the 2nd water -- but
I would prefer it to have no added water... otherwise, I will spend
forever boiling off the water plus the recipe ratios will be all off.


When I have made the stuff, I used what was available. Probably the
ethylene. Yes, long term and/or intimate exposure can do bad stuff to you -

Well, since the warning labels on the ethylene glycol antifreeze say to
avoid breathing the fumes and since the recipe calls for boiling off the
water, I would be concerned about doing this anywhere indoors (which is
the easiest option for me since the stove is so convenient...).

So, I will keep searching for propylene glycol.

BTW, it seems to be used on farms to feed animals to prevent
ketosis. It appears to be 100% propylene glycol -- but we live pretty
far from real farm country, so I am not sure that variety is locally
available. Also, it is a lot more expensive than antifreeze... probably
because it is (animal) food grade.

blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

blueman wrote:

HOWEVER, I am having a hard time finding pure (non-diluted)
propylene glycol locally. I checked several auto stores and only
found ethylene glycol antifreeze except for marine antifreeze but
it was only about 50% concentration. I saw some sources online, but
I was hoping to buy locally.

Any suggestions?

Napa has it...
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...400_0006545694

but I don't know the concentration (MSDS says " 25%") and the flash
point (see MSDS) is worrisome.

Well my guess is if MSDS says 25%, that is likely to be a lot closer
to 25% than to 100%.

A reasonable guess, I would think
____________

I saw some stuff at one of the chain auto parts stores that was 50%
in that the first ingredient was propylene glycol and the 2nd water
-- but I would prefer it to have no added water... otherwise, I will
spend forever boiling off the water plus the recipe ratios will be
all off.

More time, true, but once the mix reaches the required temperature the
ratios would not be affected.
_______________

When I have made the stuff, I used what was available. Probably the
ethylene. Yes, long term and/or intimate exposure can do bad stuff
to you -

Well, since the warning labels on the ethylene glycol antifreeze say
to avoid breathing the fumes and since the recipe calls for boiling
off the water, I would be concerned about doing this anywhere indoors
(which is the easiest option for me since the stove is so
convenient...).

No range hood with fan?
_____________

So, I will keep searching for propylene glycol.

Tractor Supply has it.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/
The correct page URL won't save properly but search for "antifreeze" and
select the Sierra brand. Other brands may be poly too, don't know, didn't
check.

Ace & Napa carry that brand too. Here is the Sierra home page...
http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:03:24 -0500,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

Is that for the life insurance policy, or the property insurance?? grin

C) All of the above.

heh. C-less said 'C' *chuckle*

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:11:59 -0600,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:03:24 -0500,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ask your insurance agent if there's any liability issue with mixing up
and applying your own pesticides. chuckle

Is that for the life insurance policy, or the property insurance?? grin

C) All of the above.

heh. C-less said 'C' *chuckle*

Hey, I can do c's any time I like. I just don't do 'em in my name.
What amazes me is when I'm standing beside someone writing my name as
I spell it and I see that magic C come up in there. Muckin' Faroons!

--
Live Simply. Speak Kindly. Care Deeply. Love Generously.
-- anon

"dadiOH" writes:

blueman wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

I saw some stuff at one of the chain auto parts stores that was 50%
in that the first ingredient was propylene glycol and the 2nd water
-- but I would prefer it to have no added water... otherwise, I will
spend forever boiling off the water plus the recipe ratios will be
all off.

More time, true, but once the mix reaches the required temperature the
ratios would not be affected.

What I meant is that if for example it is only 50% propylene glycol,
then I would need to add 2 gallons rather than one of the antifreeze to
end up with 1 gallon of propylene glycol... and if I don't know the
ratio then I guess, I would have to try to boil off just the water in
the antifreeze first to make sure I get a gallon of (almost) pure
propylene glycol.

_______________

When I have made the stuff, I used what was available. Probably the
ethylene. Yes, long term and/or intimate exposure can do bad stuff
to you -

Well, since the warning labels on the ethylene glycol antifreeze say
to avoid breathing the fumes and since the recipe calls for boiling
off the water, I would be concerned about doing this anywhere indoors
(which is the easiest option for me since the stove is so
convenient...).

No range hood with fan?

Of course, but my wife doesn't like the 'smells' that come from the
kitchen when I use the stove and oven for my "chemistry" (a.k.a. home
repair) experiments. Plus the warning label was pretty scary and it's
not like my oven hood is a real chemistry lab hood (though given that it
is a Thermidor it probably cost *more* than a chemistry lab hood lol)

Thanks for all the really helpful advice and replies

"dadiOH" writes:
Tractor Supply has it.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/
The correct page URL won't save properly but search for "antifreeze" and
select the Sierra brand. Other brands may be poly too, don't know, didn't
check.


Ace & Napa carry that brand too. Here is the Sierra home page...
http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/

Napa looks like the easiest for me.
It's $18.99 -- a bit pricey for antifreeze but I'll pay the extra to
avoid the toxicity both in my kitchen and then on the wood...

According to the MSDS, it's 94-96% propylene glycol, 3% water, 1%
additives which should be close enough...


An alternative is Durvet Propylene Glycol which is used to prevent
ketosis in farm animals. It says it is 100% propylene glycol.
Amazon has it for $21.77 plus shipping. More expensive, but presumably
purer.
http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Propyle...0624595&sr=8-1

Don't be a dick, Mike.

wrote:

Don't be a dick, Mike.

A totally meaningless response. If you're going to post to a usenet
newsgroup, then follow the practices of usenet newsgroups, and include the
text you are replying to. As it is, your comment has no context, and is
therefore meaningless.

--

-Mike-