On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 04:44:14 GMT, Mike Marlow wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

That having been said, the HANS device hasn't caught on real well,
or there'd still be a #3 car driving around. If a .5 ounce safety
device isn't being used, a 1 pound airbag hasn't got a chance.

HANS type devices have caught on very well. Dale Earnhardt didn't wear one
and neither did the other 42 drivers that day. Since his death though, they
have become mandatory. I'd say that's catching on pretty well.

Well, at least something came from it then.

Shame they
had to become mandatory and under those circumstances, but at least everyone
is wearing them now.

I guess what I'm saying is that an airbag, while it could be engineered
to perform properly in a racecar, is a heavy complicated piece of
equipment, and I'm not sure it'd solve any problems that can't be solved
in less complicated, lighter ways.

How the heck did we get on this topic anyway?

In article le.rogers.com, "Upscale" wrote:

Could be. Only thing I know is that a good friend of mine was a cop
(sergeant) and he continually noticed obscure things that I'd never have
seen if he didn't point them out to me. My only guess is that his job and
the training he'd received forced him to see things most people would miss.

Or perhaps you're simply unobservant. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

George wrote:

It doesn't take an engineer realize the complexity of the situation.

What we expect a bag to do:
1) Deploy at such a rate as to cover a certain distance in less time than
it takes the driver to meet it.
2) Upon reaching the point of maximum deployment, so as not to become the
equivalent of a fixed object,begin deflating at a rate sufficient to
cushion the driver or occupant.

3) remain deployed long enough to absorb secondary impacts. This, I
suspect, is the one that would be a killer on the race course. I'm
envisioning one of those crashes where the car goes end over end several
times shedding parts the whole way. The airbag might help on the _first_
bounce but how about the second, third, fourth, etc? And those are the
ones where the driver needs all the help he can get.

And I remember looking at a wrecked Porsche in the garage at Brumos one
time. It was _flat_ from the firewall (or whatever you call the partition
between the trunk and the passenger compartment in a Porsche--with a front
engine it would have been the firewall) forward. The salesman's comment
was "That was a bad one. Peter (Gregg, who was the owner of the dealership
and a well known racing driver then) sprained his thumb in that one." That
was back in '69--my Dad and I were there looking at a used XK-E that I was
hoping would be my first car and the salesman was trying to steer him to a
new Porsche having despaired of selling him the 250GTO that they had on the
lot--fortunately my Dad was smarter than I was and so I ended up with mongo
Detroit sedan aka roadgoing battleship so I'm still alive. There have been
vast improvements in the safety features of racing cars since.

It's Newtonian physics all the way, so your HS stuff should work, but in
case you require a review http://physics.ucsd.edu/~cdpgrad/speed.html
will
cover the basics. The last equation you'll need is E=mv(squared).

I'm not going to run down the numbers, but the basic bag is designed to
protect a certain mass traveling at a certain velocity over a fixed
distance less than the distance to the wheel, but greater than that
required to
absorb the deceleration as it deflates. You can get a review of the
difficulties at http://www.roadandtravel.com/womensw.../ww_airbag.htm
in case you have missed the ongoing controversy over the bag becoming the
fixed object. The bag is good with minor injuries over a certain range
either side of the design point.

A quick non-engineer assessment says that 150 versus 50 mph makes the
problem about nine times as complex. And they're still trying to solve
the 50.

Buckle up, so I don't have to lift your carcass out of a PIA in my county.
When so many bones are broken, handling a body is like trying to control
jell-o.

NOW I feel better.

"Upscale" wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Oh yes, the five-point works only in conjunction with the roll cage and
a
seat that can't compress the driver against the airbag (wheel) on
deceleration. I'd say think about it, but I'm sure you won't, or
can't.

Feel better now? Don't hold back George, it's early in the morning. Let
it ALL out.



--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Charlie Self wrote:

I didn't say it can't be done. I did say it was impractical. There is a
difference.

Not only impractical, but of dubious utility. Race car drivers
wear 5-point harnesses, full-face helmets, and neck restraints.
What is the airbag going to protect them from? An airbag in
a passenger car is intended to keep your head from impacting
hard parts of the car, and to some extent from your chest
hitting the steering wheel, but all that is already being prevented
by the other safety measures in race cars. Race drivers pretty
routinely survive crashes at speeds well over 100 MPH.

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

I guess what I'm saying is that an airbag, while it could be engineered
to perform properly in a racecar, is a heavy complicated piece of
equipment, and I'm not sure it'd solve any problems that can't be solved
in less complicated, lighter ways.

That's pretty much what I've been saying but this fellow Upscale seems a bit
miffed that his idea couldn't get off the ground. God bless him for
thinking and even for thinking out of the box, or wierdly, since that's
where all truly good idead really come from, but he sure does seem sensative
if his ideas aren't embraced by one and all.


How the heck did we get on this topic anyway?


Ah-ha, it was just a matter of time before this question came up...

--

-Mike-

wrote in message ...

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.


Yeahbut.... imagine how hard it would have been to get that first piece of
as* back in your high school days...
--

-Mike-

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:20:48 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.

Well, no. I've seen plenty of steering wheels bent by the chests
of people who were fully seatbelted; an airbag would have been
softer. One guy had the imprint of the chevy bowtie bruised into
his chest, along with the seatbelt bruises. Also, side impact
and/or curtain airbags protect against directional forces that
the seatbelts just can't (unless we went to 5-point, which will
never happen).

It's a system, to be used one with the other, not one instead of
the other. Both together are drastically better than either alone.

wrote:

Charlie Self wrote:

I didn't say it can't be done. I did say it was impractical. There is a
difference.

Not only impractical, but of dubious utility. Race car drivers
wear 5-point harnesses, full-face helmets, and neck restraints.
What is the airbag going to protect them from? An airbag in
a passenger car is intended to keep your head from impacting
hard parts of the car, and to some extent from your chest
hitting the steering wheel, but all that is already being prevented
by the other safety measures in race cars. Race drivers pretty
routinely survive crashes at speeds well over 100 MPH.

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.

lf airbags work so all fired well then why, with all new cars equipped with
airbags, are so many states all of a sudden passing seat belt laws?

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:20:48 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.

Well, no. I've seen plenty of steering wheels bent by the chests
of people who were fully seatbelted; an airbag would have been

and/or curtain airbags protect against directional forces that
the seatbelts just can't (unless we went to 5-point, which will
never happen).

I was suggesting if regular passenger car passengers and drivers
were using 5-point belts and helmets. I didn't specify the 5-point
harness, but I meant it. And, yes, I know it's never going to
happen. My point was that drivers in race cars already have
protection which works well enough that airbags would not be
terribly useful.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:20:48 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.

Well, no. I've seen plenty of steering wheels bent by the chests
of people who were fully seatbelted; an airbag would have been
softer. One guy had the imprint of the chevy bowtie bruised into
his chest, along with the seatbelt bruises. Also, side impact
and/or curtain airbags protect against directional forces that
the seatbelts just can't (unless we went to 5-point, which will
never happen).

I think the OP meant that if everyone was belted in with a 5 point harness
and a helmet there would be no need for an airbag. Not very fashionable so
I don't expect the wimmin to be jumping on board with that idea. The
devices they pass off as seatbelts/shoulder harnesses in private vehicles
fall really short of what they should provide in terms of safety. Somewhere
between a 5 point harness and the typical passenger car restraint system
lies a much better idea. But then again, we'd have to deal with all those
other issues like seats that offer no rigidity, doors that cave in to the
center of the car, etc., etc., etc.


It's a system, to be used one with the other, not one instead of
the other. Both together are drastically better than either alone.


Yup - for the passenger car, that's very true.
--

-Mike-

John wrote:lf airbags work so all fired well then why, with all new cars
equipped with
airbags, are so many states all of a sudden passing seat belt laws?

Because, without the seat belt, you probably wouldn't be in the right place for
the airbag to help you. Tom
Work at your leisure!

Tom wrote:

John wrote:lf airbags work so all fired well then why, with all new cars
equipped with
airbags, are so many states all of a sudden passing seat belt laws?

Because, without the seat belt, you probably wouldn't be in the right
place for the airbag to help you. Tom
Work at your leisure!

But with the seat belt how much difference does the airbag really make?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:21:03 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
Tom wrote:

John wrote:lf airbags work so all fired well then why, with all new cars
equipped with
airbags, are so many states all of a sudden passing seat belt laws?

Because, without the seat belt, you probably wouldn't be in the right
place for the airbag to help you. Tom

But with the seat belt how much difference does the airbag really make?

Quite a bit. You can still hit the dashboard and/or the
steering wheel with seatbelts on. It's not always you moving
towards them, sometimes they move towards _you_. An airbag is
softer than either of these objects.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
link.net...

wrote in message ...

If everyone in a passenger car was belted in and wearing a helmet,
there would be no need for airbags in them either.


Yeahbut.... imagine how hard it would have been to get that first piece of
as* back in your high school days...

No harder than it already was.

todd

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:9WZCc.13213

That's pretty much what I've been saying but this fellow Upscale seems a
bit
miffed that his idea couldn't get off the ground. God bless him for
thinking and even for thinking out of the box, or wierdly, since that's
where all truly good idead really come from, but he sure does seem
sensative
if his ideas aren't embraced by one and all.

No, I'm not miffed in anyway, it's just that sometimes I get caught up in
the heat of the discussion. Obviously, I'm lacking a certain amount of
knowledge as to why an air bag wouldn't have some value in a race car, but
only because I'm a true believer that just because something hasn't been
done properly yet, doesn't mean that it's impossible.

I was the driver in an accident once that should have resulted in my death,
but I came away with a simple cut on my hand and that was it. When I show a
picture of the smashed vehicle to people, some refuse to believe that I was
in it during the crash. A seatbelt saved my life so I'm all for the
advancement of most all types of safety products for cars. But as many here
have told me, we're discussing racing vehicles, not family cars.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:ALXCc.1586

Or perhaps you're simply unobservant. :-)

Maybe so, but I'd see like you coming from a mile off.

In article , says...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:25:57 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

"A little rubbing"?????????

With this sentence, two things become crystal clear:
1) You have never watched a NASCAR race. Ever. Not in person, not on TV.
2) You are not paying any attention to the people who *have*.

Uh, Doug? How many G's, in what direction, are needed to set off
an airbag in a passenger car? How often does that happen in racing?
You'll only see that if you hit something stationary, or going a
drastically different direction.

Here's your sign.

You might want to hang onto it for a bit. Airbags are only going to
go off with enough force _and_ with that force in the right direction.

I meant only to point out the absurdity of his characterization of the
contact between NASCAR racers as "a little rubbing". Anyone who had ever
seen a NASCAR race, even once, would know that it's a *lot* more than
that. Which adds a little ironic humor to his characterization of the
rest of us as a bunch of armchair quarterbacks or whatever it was.

In article , Todd Fatheree
wrote:

No harder than it already was.

Hm. What does a car have to do with getting any?

I had no car through college. I never felt frustrated getting any.

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
tone.ca...
In article , Todd Fatheree
wrote:

No harder than it already was.

Hm. What does a car have to do with getting any?

I had no car through college. I never felt frustrated getting any.

The post I responded to was talking about high school. Your opportunities
for location of amorous behavior in high school are more limited than in
college.

todd

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:5B4Dc.28713
seen a NASCAR race, even once, would know that it's a *lot* more than
that. Which adds a little ironic humor to his characterization of the
rest of us as a bunch of armchair quarterbacks or whatever it was.

Not once did I claim to be knowledgeable in regards to Nascar racing. I
guess that doesn't make me the arrogant asshole you appear to be.

In article .ca, wrote:
In article , Todd Fatheree
wrote:

No harder than it already was.

Hm. What does a car have to do with getting any?

I had no car through college. I never felt frustrated getting any.

That's odd, I felt frustrated from *not* getting any. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article le.rogers.com, "Upscale" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:5B4Dc.28713
seen a NASCAR race, even once, would know that it's a *lot* more than
that. Which adds a little ironic humor to his characterization of the
rest of us as a bunch of armchair quarterbacks or whatever it was.

Not once did I claim to be knowledgeable in regards to Nascar racing.

Too bad that lack of knowledge didn't stop you from making comments on it. For
example:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but I've watched a couple NASCAR races, and the bumping and banging
would set off almost any airbag sensor you can dream up. An airbag in the
face at 190+ MPH has to be a cause of immediate loss of control, which is
going to be a real fun occasion when that driver is in the middle of a pack
of cars.

To which you replied:

"Of course you wouldn't want one going off just because of a little rubbing."

I guess that doesn't make me the arrogant asshole you appear to be.

Perhaps not, but comments like that one certainly do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:47:45 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , says...

You might want to hang onto it for a bit. Airbags are only going to
go off with enough force _and_ with that force in the right direction.

I meant only to point out the absurdity of his characterization of the
contact between NASCAR racers as "a little rubbing". Anyone who had ever
seen a NASCAR race, even once, would know that it's a *lot* more than
that. Which adds a little ironic humor to his characterization of the
rest of us as a bunch of armchair quarterbacks or whatever it was.

Got it. OK, you can give him the sign now then.

Upscale wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:9WZCc.13213

That's pretty much what I've been saying but this fellow Upscale seems a
bit
miffed that his idea couldn't get off the ground. God bless him for
thinking and even for thinking out of the box, or wierdly, since that's
where all truly good idead really come from, but he sure does seem
sensative
if his ideas aren't embraced by one and all.

No, I'm not miffed in anyway, it's just that sometimes I get caught up in
the heat of the discussion. Obviously, I'm lacking a certain amount of
knowledge as to why an air bag wouldn't have some value in a race car, but
only because I'm a true believer that just because something hasn't been
done properly yet, doesn't mean that it's impossible.

It's possible to shoot yourself in the head but that doesn't mean it's a
good idea.

I was the driver in an accident once that should have resulted in my
death, but I came away with a simple cut on my hand and that was it. When
I show a picture of the smashed vehicle to people, some refuse to believe
that I was in it during the crash. A seatbelt saved my life so I'm all for
the advancement of most all types of safety products for cars. But as many
here have told me, we're discussing racing vehicles, not family cars.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
only because I'm a true believer that just because something hasn't been
done properly yet, doesn't mean that it's impossible.

It's possible to shoot yourself in the head but that doesn't mean it's a
good idea.

Lousy comparison John.

Upscale wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
only because I'm a true believer that just because something hasn't
been done properly yet, doesn't mean that it's impossible.

It's possible to shoot yourself in the head but that doesn't mean it's a
good idea.

Lousy comparison John.

It wasn't a "comparison". The point was making was that just because
something is _possible_ doesn't mean that it needs to be done.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)