Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

Steven Bornfeld wrote in
m:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

You are correct to be concerned.

IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with
the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question.

My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding
kitchen cabinet construction:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...tion2002201102

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
Steven wrote in
m:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV



Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

Steve

On 8/12/2011 12:38 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

You are correct to be concerned.

IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with
the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question.

My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding
kitchen cabinet construction:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...tion2002201102



Pretty impressive--thanks!

"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
m...
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people
out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are
considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls
"compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it
seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently
more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to
absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to
fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how
things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are
made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve


IMHO, cabinet grade plywood is superior to MDF or any of the other
"compressed wood" products.
I am a hobbyist woodworker but I have managed to pay for my workshop and
tools strictly from income derived from building cabinets, bookcases,
entertainment centers etc. for profit.
Many people prefer the look of "European" style but to me it seems a bit
"sterile" or plain. Much depends on the rest of the decor in the house and
especially the kitchen.
Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.
By the way, screws aren't used as prevalently in cabinets as you might
imagine.

Max

On Aug 12, 11:12*am, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
built with care and quality.

I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
and save money (but it depends on where you live).

We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
shop hired an installer.

If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
look around.

RonB

On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:

Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.

On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":

http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp

The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes
is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors
and drawer fronts.

Highly recommended!!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote in
:

On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:

Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using
plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products.
...........................IMHO.

On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":

http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp

The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts
in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type
finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than
plywood doors and drawer fronts.

Highly recommended!!

As expected from Karl, excellent information from a PRO!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 8/12/2011 12:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:

Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.

On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":

http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp

The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes
is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors
and drawer fronts.

Highly recommended!!



Well, it sounds like the domestic maker thinks this way. The boxes are
plywood; the doors are MDF with maple veneer, multiple layers of finish.
I figure there will still be some back-and-forth about the details.
My wife is pushing for Blum hardware.
Thanks to all for the knowledgeable responses!

Steve

On 8/12/2011 12:58 PM, RonB wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:12 am, Steven
wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
built with care and quality.

I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
and save money (but it depends on where you live).

We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
shop hired an installer.

If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
look around.

RonB


I doubt very much that we do (I'm in Brooklyn NY), but your way sounds
wonderful!

Steve

Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to
warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out.

Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that
all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood".

Horse hocky

To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if
there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are
into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to
something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished
(coated).

With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things
together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either.

Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face
frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong;
OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong.

Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a
pretty clean look and they last and last.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

In article ,
Steven Bornfeld wrote:

On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
Steven wrote in
m:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV



Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

Steve

Steve -

I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
on plywood.

I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
the sink cabinet - what a mess.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:

Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood
instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO.

On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a
Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":

http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp

The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in
the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is
much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and
drawer fronts.

Highly recommended!!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)


Interesting! Thank you.

Max

"RonB" wrote



I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if
built with care and quality.

I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets
and save money (but it depends on where you live).

We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri
state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled
cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops
with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with
one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be
happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She
measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would
get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house
to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with
plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit.
Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed
thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly.
The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly.
They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control
of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in
their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built
his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber
region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet
shop hired an installer.

If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources,
look around.

RonB



Oh, shut up, Ron. You're just trying to make me feel bad about living in
the desert. G

Max

On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:

I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
on plywood.

I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
the sink cabinet - what a mess.

Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.

Steve

On 8/12/2011 3:57 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to
warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out.

Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that
all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood".

Horse hocky

To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if
there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are
into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to
something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished
(coated).

With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things
together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either.

Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face
frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong;
OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong.

Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a
pretty clean look and they last and last.




Thanks for the reply!

Steve

On Aug 12, 12:38*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:









Steven *wrote in
om:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. *Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. *Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. *Upper
doors with glass. *There was an extensive choice available then. *They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. *Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. *YMMV

* * * * Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
* * * * When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. *But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
* * * * The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a
place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures?

The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will
eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.

That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
you let sleeping puddles lie.

R

"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
m...

On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:

I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
on plywood.

I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
the sink cabinet - what a mess.

Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.

Steve

===================

"Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days!

Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"

--

Eric

On 8/13/2011 7:57 AM, Eric wrote:
"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
m...

On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:

I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the
Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large
European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods
and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most
compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in
Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN"
on plywood.

I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was
left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was
mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and
the sink cabinet - what a mess.

Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.

Steve

===================

"Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days!

Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"

--

Eric

I think that who ever is selling scrambled chip garbage with a nice
outer veneer as plywood is either ignorant or thinks you might be. That
clearly describes either OSB with a veneer or Particle board with a veneer.

Plywood is always going to have continuous thin sheets of wood built up
to the thickness that is desired.

On Aug 12, 12:12*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard,
MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching,
it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and
apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more
likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more
prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says
this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive
cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my
concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is
likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

I built a lot of kitchens since 1976 until I packed that in 5+ years
ago....2003, wow, that's 8 years ago...*shakes head*
The bulk of them, we built with 120gram melamine over HD particle
board.
Trust me when I tell you that there are a LOT of different grades of
PB and thicknesses of melamine. Sink cabinets were invariably
constructed of plywood for all the reasons the rest of the guys here
talk about.
The 120gPB I used was not much of a cost savings over plywood, but so
much easier to cut accurately, no finishing, certainly flatter and
more of a consistent thickness. All said and done, the bulk of the
cost saving by using 120gPB was in the fact that a single pass through
the edgebander did the job. No face frame to deal with, No sanding,
and 3 coats of spraying.
The nicest thing about PB is that it is flat.
The guys who bought the shop back then now use a lot of water
resistant MDF of which Swing speaketh. Also available with 120g of
Melamine.

If done right, there's nothing wrong with a quality heavy duty
particle board.

Now we get to the crux of the matter: I like plywood except it is
harder to be competitive in the marketplace from a price standpoint.
In terms of look-and-feel? Nothing to talk about.

On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven
wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:









Steven wrote in
m:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper
doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV

Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a
place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures?

The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will
eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.

That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
you let sleeping puddles lie.

R

Are you stalking me? ;-)
Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4.
They'll get around to the roof--someday.

Steve

On Aug 14, 6:50*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote:









On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven
wrote:
On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:

Steven * *wrote in
news:dLKdnT4QdOl_zdjTnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@earthlink .com:

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know..
First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some
people out, but figured I'd try anyway.
We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We
are considering a couple of places.
One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he
calls "compressed wood".
Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are
plywood.
The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including
fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant
web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are
cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are
heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp,
and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our
European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all
the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me
that's a non-answer to my concerns.
I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that
is likely to split when placing screws.
Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for
cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA.
Steve

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe)
Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. *Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years
ago. *Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. *Upper
doors with glass. *There was an extensive choice available then. *They
have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. *Often it's
the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then
what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture,
handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. *YMMV

* * * * *Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are
not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something
about the glue.
* * * * *When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the
Poggenpohl cabinets. *But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors
under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated.
* * * * *The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and
attitude. *Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability
thing. *Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a
place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? *

The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage
such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a
spill puddle is left standing. *Little barely noticeable leaks will
eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.

That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that
you let sleeping puddles lie.

R

* * * * Are you stalking me? ;-)
Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4.
They'll get around to the roof--someday.

Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time.

One thing about your viewpoint on plywood - cabinet grade plywood is
better than the stuff used elsewhere in building a house, manufactured
with more stringent grading and frequently more and thinner plies of
veneer. Hopefully that will alleviate some of your concerns about the
plywood splitting from screws - it's really not an issue at all.

R

Mostly the pricks at Home Depot in Canada sell that stuff.

Many of us don't want to pay more than $60 a sheet for plywood so we have to
take what is on the shelves.


1-----------------------
"Leon" wrote in message
...
I think that who ever is selling scrambled chip garbage with a nice
outer veneer as plywood is either ignorant or thinks you might be. That
clearly describes either OSB with a veneer or Particle board with a veneer.

Plywood is always going to have continuous thin sheets of wood built up
to the thickness that is desired.

2------------------------
Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled
chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"

RicodJour wrote in
:


Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time.


*snip*


R

That's what I like about maps. They can convey much more detailed
information than instructions with much less effort. Do you turn right,
bear right, or keep following the road (which itself goes right but only
slightly?)

Pictures are sometimes better than words, and words are sometimes better
than pictures. It takes wisdom to know which one to use.

Puckdropper

On 8/14/2011 6:58 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

That's what I like about maps. They can convey much more detailed
information than instructions with much less effort. Do you turn right,
bear right, or keep following the road (which itself goes right but only
slightly?)

40+ years after learning it, I still remember the military definition of
a map: "A graphical representation of a portion of the earth's surface,
drawn to scale."

The definition says what a map does, in about as many words.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 14, 7:12*pm, RicodJour wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? *Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. *I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. *The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time. *

....and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map showed
to turn right. Sigh.

R

On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time.

...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map showed
to turn right. Sigh.

R


We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
Help like this I don't need.

Steve

On Aug 14, 11:46*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, *wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? *Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. *I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. *The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time. *

...and remind me to proofread. *Said to turn left and the map showed
to turn right. *Sigh.

R

We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. *I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, *and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
* Help like this I don't need.

Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
"The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
urns."

GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.

R

RicodJour wrote in
:

On Aug 14, 11:46*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, *wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? *Couldn't go riding so I was poking around
o
n
some rides sites. *I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday
tryi
ng
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost.
*Th
e
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed
to go right - remind me to print out the maps next time. *

...and remind me to proofread. *Said to turn left and the map
showed to turn right. *Sigh.

R

We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. *I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, *and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the
car, not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the
instructions can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of
direction. * Help like this I don't need.

Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
"The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
urns."

GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.

R

I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the Porter
Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and then a bit of
16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an example, and not where I
live smile.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:


I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the
Porter Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and
then a bit of 16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an
example, and not where I live smile.

There are GPS units out there that supposedly do learn your travel habits,
and others that will suggest alternate routes based on such things as
traffic delays, etc. Not sure how well they really work though. Why would
you want a GPS to learn and suggest a route that you already know though?

--

-Mike-

On 8/15/2011 6:27 AM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On Aug 14, 11:46 pm, Steven
wrote:
On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around
o
n
some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday
tryi
ng
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost.
Th
e
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed
to go right - remind me to print out the maps next time.

...and remind me to proofread. Said to turn left and the map
showed to turn right. Sigh.

R

We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the
car, not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the
instructions can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of
direction. Help like this I don't need.

Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
"The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
urns."

GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.

R

I wish GPSs learned what my preferred routes are. My Nüvi 255W always
wants me to take the Turnpike extension to Allston, and then along
Soldiers Field Road to go through Harvrad Square on my way to the Porter
Square area. I prefer to take 128/95 North/East to Rt2 and then a bit of
16 to Mass Ave going south. And that's just an example, and not where I
livesmile.



;-) Now if a GPS took you on your preferred routes what would you need
a GPS for? I use a GPS because I like to ignore that female voice and
not get into trouble!

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:E6-
:

;-) Now if a GPS took you on your preferred routes what would you need
a GPS for? I use a GPS because I like to ignore that female voice and
not get into trouble!

Most of the time she is muted :-)
But the "Tom-Tom", as it is colloquially known, is a good source of
amusement for our 11 year-old granddaughter. And we used it to good effect
to get to he
http://www.skyventurenh.com/
I have to get some stills out of the DVD we bought ... 3/4GB is too big for
posting anywhere (I think).

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article 419efddb-8fd1-4544-8d29-a8b7601cf6b1
@df3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com, says...

On Aug 14, 11:46*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
On 8/14/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:12 pm, *wrote:

Helluva rain today, eh? *Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on
some rides sites. *I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying
to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. *The
cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go
right - remind me to print out the maps next time. *

...and remind me to proofread. *Said to turn left and the map showed
to turn right. *Sigh.

R

We're hosting 4 girls from overseas this weekend (from a camp my
daughter was at) until their flights home. *I had to drop one off at
Newark airport, *and as a pretty recent new user of a GPS (in the car,
not the bike) I'm amazed at how just plain deceptive the instructions
can be, even at low speeds.
I'm famous in my bicycle club for having a terrible sense of direction.
* Help like this I don't need.

Having a terrible sense of direction while biking is a feature, not a
bug. How else are you going to discover those undiscovered places?
Fr'instance, getting lost in Greenwich let us find a castle. This
from a NY Times article about it from a dozen years ago:
"The Castle on Brookside Drive was another popular location in town.
The greatest of great estates is a Medieval fantasy, a castle-fortress
high atop a steep hill, with red tile roofs and towers and balconies,
a drawbridge and a moat, a great hall with a built-in pipe organ, a
bowling alley in the basement, a swimming pool guarded by white marble
caryatids, and gardens with waterfalls, statuary and Ali Baba stone
urns."

GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.

Sometimes the route changes, some stuff may be put there for copyright-
defense reasons with the expectation that nobody will actually be stupid
enough to follow it.

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.

"J. Clarke" wrote in
in.local:

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.

Common sense is indeed very uncommon.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"J. Clarke" wrote

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.

There is a local fire department who have rescued a number of spanish
speaking tourists from a lake. It seems that the GPS directs them, in
spanish, to drive on a boat launching ramp into the lake. A classic case of
listening to a voice come out of the dashboard, instead of looking out the
front window. One factor is that these have all occurred at night. Srill...
Needless to say, the local rental companies are not happy with this. All
the cars were rentals.

Kinda like getting run over by a train. How do people do that? Or the
ladies who did not know they were pregnant. There are a lot of clueless
folks in the world.

Time to learn about your GPS options.
Garmin has an "avoid dirt roads" that actually works.


-------------
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
Sometimes the route changes, some stuff may be put there for copyright-
defense reasons with the expectation that nobody will actually be stupid
enough to follow it.

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.

On 15 Aug 2011 13:33:34 GMT, Han wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
ain.local:

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and take a
side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a mile, then
turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then good dirt, then
crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to where I had to go
through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I decided that maybe I should
go back to the Interstate. How that got listed as a road I have no
idea.

Common sense is indeed very uncommon.

Yeah, why can't they just mark them honestly?

This is a highway.
This is a back road.
This is a dirt road.
This is a dirt-bike trail.
This is a horse trail.
This is a deer trail.
This is a hiking path.

Simple.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Larry Jaques wrote:
On 15 Aug 2011 13:33:34 GMT, Han wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
in.local:

My favorite was the time I was told to get off the Interstate and
take a side road. Well, I did. It was OK pavement for about a
mile, then turned into crappy pavement, then broken pavement, then
good dirt, then crappy dirt, then a Jeep trail, and when it got to
where I had to go through a hole cut in a chain-link fence I
decided that maybe I should go back to the Interstate. How that
got listed as a road I have no idea.

Common sense is indeed very uncommon.

Yeah, why can't they just mark them honestly?

This is a highway.
This is a back road.
This is a dirt road.
This is a dirt-bike trail.
This is a horse trail.
This is a deer trail.
This is a hiking path.

Simple.

Well - the GPS manufacurers just use standard mapping applications and data.
That's where one should direct their questions.

--

-Mike-

RicodJour wrote in
:

*snip*


GPSs are two-edged. When they get wacky, they get really wacky. I've
had times where they were telling me to drive straight across a field,
and times they had me take three left turns instead of taking a right.

R

We had one take us 20 miles out of the way to get ice cream. It never got
used for the rest of the trip. They're neat toys, and occasionally useful,
but require so much oversight as to be pointless.

Btw, if you ever are getting off I69 to head West on I80, don't head east
to the travel plaza that's just a mile away. You have to go all the way to
Ohio to turn around.

We've had our adventures with maps as well...

Puckdropper