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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.
First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve |
#2
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cabinet box material
Steven Bornfeld wrote in
m: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#3
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote:
Steven wrote in m: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question. Steve |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
In article ,
Steven Bornfeld wrote: On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote: Steven wrote in m: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question. Steve Steve - I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN" on plywood. I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and the sink cabinet - what a mess. |
#5
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote:
I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN" on plywood. I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and the sink cabinet - what a mess. Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading. Steve |
#6
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cabinet box material
"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
m... On 8/12/2011 4:33 PM, Doug Houseman wrote: I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN" on plywood. I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and the sink cabinet - what a mess. Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading. Steve =================== "Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days! Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood" -- Eric |
#7
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cabinet box material
On Aug 12, 12:38*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote: On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote: Steven *wrote in om: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. *Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. *Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. *Upper doors with glass. *There was an extensive choice available then. *They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. *Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. *YMMV * * * * Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. * * * * When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. *But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. * * * * The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question. I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box. That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that you let sleeping puddles lie. R |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven wrote: On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote: Steven wrote in m: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question. I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box. That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that you let sleeping puddles lie. R Are you stalking me? ;-) Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4. They'll get around to the roof--someday. Steve |
#9
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cabinet box material
On Aug 14, 6:50*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote: On 8/13/2011 8:49 AM, RicodJour wrote: On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven wrote: On 8/12/2011 12:22 PM, Han wrote: Steven * *wrote in news:dLKdnT4QdOl_zdjTnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@earthlink .com: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know.. First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. *Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. *Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. *Upper doors with glass. *There was an extensive choice available then. *They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen. European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. *Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc. Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. *YMMV * * * * *Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. * * * * *When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. *But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. * * * * *The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question. I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and attitude. *Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability thing. *Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? * The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a spill puddle is left standing. *Little barely noticeable leaks will eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box. That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that you let sleeping puddles lie. R * * * * Are you stalking me? ;-) Actually, a puddle in the middle of the living room woke me up at 4. They'll get around to the roof--someday. Helluva rain today, eh? Couldn't go riding so I was poking around on some rides sites. I went riding around Greenwich, CT yesterday trying to figure out why we couldn't follow the cue sheet and got lost. The cue sheet said to turn right, and the map showed that you needed to go right - remind me to print out the maps next time. One thing about your viewpoint on plywood - cabinet grade plywood is better than the stuff used elsewhere in building a house, manufactured with more stringent grading and frequently more and thinner plies of veneer. Hopefully that will alleviate some of your concerns about the plywood splitting from screws - it's really not an issue at all. R |
#10
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cabinet box material
On Aug 12, 12:38*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote: * * * * Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right? |
#11
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cabinet box material
On Aug 18, 3:15*am, Father Haskell wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:38*pm, Steven Bornfeld wrote: * * * * Thanks--that makes sense. *The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. Which is what MDF is mostly made of. *He did know that, right? Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bull****-To-Make-A-Sale scale than deadly generic glue. Lines like the guy told the OP give me headaches. You have to figure out if the guy believes it and is just misinformed, opening up the question of what else he's misinformed about, or just making up stuff to make a sale. Either way it's a red flag and I'd move on from the guy, especially since the OP said the guy had an attitude. R |
#12
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cabinet box material
On 8/18/2011 11:18 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 18, 3:15 am, Father wrote: On Aug 12, 12:38 pm, Steven wrote: Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right? Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bull****-To-Make-A-Sale scale than deadly generic glue. Lines like the guy told the OP give me headaches. You have to figure out if the guy believes it and is just misinformed, opening up the question of what else he's misinformed about, or just making up stuff to make a sale. Either way it's a red flag and I'd move on from the guy, especially since the OP said the guy had an attitude. R He may have convinced himself, but I'm really giving him the benefit of the doubt. He had just returned from a family funeral in Europe--unless he made that up too. Steve |
#13
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cabinet box material
"RicodJour" wrote in message
... Which is what MDF is mostly made of. He did know that, right? Deadly plywood glue is MUCH higher up on the Bull****-To-Make-A-Sale scale than deadly generic glue. ================ Formaldehyde is a dangerous substance that many MDF products release into household breathing space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard -- Eric |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? You are correct to be concerned. IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question. My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding kitchen cabinet construction: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...tion2002201102 -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#15
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 12:38 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 11:12 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? You are correct to be concerned. IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question. My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding kitchen cabinet construction: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...tion2002201102 Pretty impressive--thanks! |
#16
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cabinet box material
"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
m... Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve IMHO, cabinet grade plywood is superior to MDF or any of the other "compressed wood" products. I am a hobbyist woodworker but I have managed to pay for my workshop and tools strictly from income derived from building cabinets, bookcases, entertainment centers etc. for profit. Many people prefer the look of "European" style but to me it seems a bit "sterile" or plain. Much depends on the rest of the decor in the house and especially the kitchen. Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. By the way, screws aren't used as prevalently in cabinets as you might imagine. Max |
#17
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On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote:
Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock": http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and drawer fronts. Highly recommended!! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#18
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cabinet box material
Swingman wrote in
: On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote: Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock": http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and drawer fronts. Highly recommended!! As expected from Karl, excellent information from a PRO!! -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#19
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 12:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote: Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock": http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and drawer fronts. Highly recommended!! Well, it sounds like the domestic maker thinks this way. The boxes are plywood; the doors are MDF with maple veneer, multiple layers of finish. I figure there will still be some back-and-forth about the details. My wife is pushing for Blum hardware. Thanks to all for the knowledgeable responses! Steve |
#20
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"Swingman" wrote in message
... On 8/12/2011 11:52 AM, Max wrote: Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock": http://www.templeinland.com/Building...rastock-mr.asp The moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and drawer fronts. Highly recommended!! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) Interesting! Thank you. Max |
#21
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cabinet box material
On Aug 12, 11:12*am, Steven Bornfeld
wrote: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if built with care and quality. I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets and save money (but it depends on where you live). We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit. Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly. The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly. They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet shop hired an installer. If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources, look around. RonB |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 12:58 PM, RonB wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:12 am, Steven wrote: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if built with care and quality. I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets and save money (but it depends on where you live). We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit. Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly. The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly. They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet shop hired an installer. If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources, look around. RonB I doubt very much that we do (I'm in Brooklyn NY), but your way sounds wonderful! Steve |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
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cabinet box material
"RonB" wrote
I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if built with care and quality. I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets and save money (but it depends on where you live). We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit. Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly. The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly. They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet shop hired an installer. If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources, look around. RonB Oh, shut up, Ron. You're just trying to make me feel bad about living in the desert. G Max |
#24
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cabinet box material
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". Horse hocky To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished (coated). With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either. Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong; OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong. Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a pretty clean look and they last and last. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
#25
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cabinet box material
On 8/12/2011 3:57 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Steven Bornfeld wrote: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". Horse hocky To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished (coated). With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either. Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong; OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong. Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a pretty clean look and they last and last. Thanks for the reply! Steve |
#26
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cabinet box material
On Aug 12, 12:12*pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote: Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. *I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. *We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. *The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. *The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. *From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). *Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. *Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". *To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? *Or am I agonizing over a non-issue? TIA. Steve I built a lot of kitchens since 1976 until I packed that in 5+ years ago....2003, wow, that's 8 years ago...*shakes head* The bulk of them, we built with 120gram melamine over HD particle board. Trust me when I tell you that there are a LOT of different grades of PB and thicknesses of melamine. Sink cabinets were invariably constructed of plywood for all the reasons the rest of the guys here talk about. The 120gPB I used was not much of a cost savings over plywood, but so much easier to cut accurately, no finishing, certainly flatter and more of a consistent thickness. All said and done, the bulk of the cost saving by using 120gPB was in the fact that a single pass through the edgebander did the job. No face frame to deal with, No sanding, and 3 coats of spraying. The nicest thing about PB is that it is flat. The guys who bought the shop back then now use a lot of water resistant MDF of which Swing speaketh. Also available with 120g of Melamine. If done right, there's nothing wrong with a quality heavy duty particle board. Now we get to the crux of the matter: I like plywood except it is harder to be competitive in the marketplace from a price standpoint. In terms of look-and-feel? Nothing to talk about. |
#27
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cabinet box material
I worked in Kitchen Design at Home Depot (Coordinator) and sold Kraft
Maid (Hardwood/plywood face frame style) as well as RTA "European Style" MDF (Compressed wood fibers). There is no question that I would prefer a (quality) plywood box over MDF type "boxes." Having said that, I went twice for the price and got the MDF (first for a remodel back in 1990, and later for another about five years later). While I took every precaution to protect the exposed edges of the MDF from moisture (sealing with Poly, caulking, etc.) I have had no issues with moisture damage in either installation. If you have a Self- Cleaning Oven, there are installation procedures necessary to protect the adjacent cabinets from the heat. The place I bought in NC had the cheap Lowes Oak face frame & door cabinets on MDF boxes. The homeowner who installed them was not a careful guy - but the cabinets held up fine. The Hardwood doors warped a bit, but the boxes are still square and true! So, from these personal experiences, I would say it's personal finances that dictate the choice. But, the differences between kitchen cabinets lies with more than the materials used in the construction of the boxes - which are seldom seen or heard from after the installation. But any woman can tell you "it's the drawers stupid." Hold your tongue and (listen &) watch the ladies shop the kitchen cabinets. Once they get past caressing the marble counter tops (emitting a purring sound in many cases), watch as they reach for the nearest drawer and, ever so lightly, attempt to pull it out into the light of showroom. Then, watch them urge it back in place with the slightest of touches, tensing a bit in anticipation to see if it responds to the little touch. If it's Blum, and effortlessly glides back into the deep recesses of that top of the line cabinet - listen for a sigh or a breath escaping slowly as it closes firmly. If she moves on to a Pan Drawer base, start the video camera with sound and post it to your tube. Later, after the experience is over and you're lounging about with the wine and Camels, ask her which she prefers in he boxes - plywood or MDF . . . |
#28
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cabinet box material
On 8/16/2011 12:15 AM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
I worked in Kitchen Design at Home Depot (Coordinator) and sold Kraft Maid (Hardwood/plywood face frame style) as well as RTA "European Style" MDF (Compressed wood fibers). There is no question that I would prefer a (quality) plywood box over MDF type "boxes." Having said that, I went twice for the price and got the MDF (first for a remodel back in 1990, and later for another about five years later). While I took every precaution to protect the exposed edges of the MDF from moisture (sealing with Poly, caulking, etc.) I have had no issues with moisture damage in either installation. If you have a Self- Cleaning Oven, there are installation procedures necessary to protect the adjacent cabinets from the heat. The place I bought in NC had the cheap Lowes Oak face frame& door cabinets on MDF boxes. The homeowner who installed them was not a careful guy - but the cabinets held up fine. The Hardwood doors warped a bit, but the boxes are still square and true! So, from these personal experiences, I would say it's personal finances that dictate the choice. But, the differences between kitchen cabinets lies with more than the materials used in the construction of the boxes - which are seldom seen or heard from after the installation. But any woman can tell you "it's the drawers stupid." Hold your tongue and (listen&) watch the ladies shop the kitchen cabinets. Once they get past caressing the marble counter tops (emitting a purring sound in many cases), watch as they reach for the nearest drawer and, ever so lightly, attempt to pull it out into the light of showroom. Then, watch them urge it back in place with the slightest of touches, tensing a bit in anticipation to see if it responds to the little touch. If it's Blum, and effortlessly glides back into the deep recesses of that top of the line cabinet - listen for a sigh or a breath escaping slowly as it closes firmly. If she moves on to a Pan Drawer base, start the video camera with sound and post it to your tube. Later, after the experience is over and you're lounging about with the wine and Camels, ask her which she prefers in he boxes - plywood or MDF . . . Funny you should mention that. We were looking at the plans from one of the cabinet makers (not the MDF guy) and my wife said--"Hey, where are the drawers?" Steve |
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