"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:

Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
but hasn't proven easy to implement.

You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.

Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
haven't built one that way personally.

=======

I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric) booster
to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
expense though.

I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as the
basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water to
hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every
time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

--

Eric

"Eric" wrote:

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID
and it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot
water to hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It
also seems to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with
room temp every time. I was thinking it should be the other way around.
Meanwhile a neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot
water within 2 seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

Did you ever go back, as a check, and re-spec your house as if were a new
installation?

I don't think they were strictly for builder accounts, but my suppliers had
downloadable spreadsheet based software that would allow you to put in all
your parameters, ambient ground water temps, list all bath and kitchen
fixtures and their flow requirements, etc., and spec a general idea for a
recommended tankless unit.

Might give you a start point in sussing out the reasons .... Just a
thought.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

Eric presented the following explanation :

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:

Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
but hasn't proven easy to implement.

You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.

Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
haven't built one that way personally.

=======

I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric) booster
to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
expense though.

I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as the
basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less length
to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and it still
seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water to hit the
end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems to cool
off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every time. I
was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a neighbour
installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2 seconds
anywhere. GRRRRR...

Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe
full of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.
Of course the water is saved but the heat (heating power ) is lost.
Choice is on the user I guess.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Eric" wrote:

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID
and it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot
water to hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It
also seems to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with
room temp every time. I was thinking it should be the other way around.
Meanwhile a neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot
water within 2 seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

Did you ever go back, as a check, and re-spec your house as if were a new
installation?

I don't think they were strictly for builder accounts, but my suppliers had
downloadable spreadsheet based software that would allow you to put in all
your parameters, ambient ground water temps, list all bath and kitchen
fixtures and their flow requirements, etc., and spec a general idea for a
recommended tankless unit.

Might give you a start point in sussing out the reasons .... Just a
thought.

--

I am not sure what problems you think I have but I did talk with the Rinnai
engineers today about their flow sensitivity cutoff at 0.6 gpm and their
bottom end 15,000 BTU/hr before turning on and they just broken record
stated,
- "No there is not way to adjust the turn on point"
- 0.6 gpm is a lot of water flow
- But we have changed all our new models to turn on at 0.4 gpm and 10,000
BTU demand.

They also show schematics using small reservoir tanks with their tankless to
improve operation for hot water demand delay. Too many people are not as
happy with the way these things as they have sold, based on the "Amazing
European Secret" we always get shoved up out N.American asses.

After that I did some flow measurements and found the 0.6 gpm shut off
correctly calibrated and functioning, as suspected and it is a fair bit of
water flow at a faucet. I haven't dug up a thermometer yet to do a study on
actually hot/cold mxi to understand the ratios yet. May prove interesting
what comfortable wash water really is.

IOW it isn't going to get any better with this unit. You have to turn water
saving faucets on almost full, as stated previously to get over 0.6 gpm of
just hot water when mixing. I can turn down the heater temperature and
possibly increase the hot water flow demand but that brings in other
problems with dishwasher running too cold and possibly Legionella bacteria
problems. In reality this (Legionella) only happens in electric tank units
where cooler water can breed and accumulate the bacteria.

Just a flaw in their logic and it makes many usage situations annoying. It
still works but the thing oscillates between on and off continuously with
hand washing and hydronic hot water demand.

I would still switch to a tank unit next time except for the BTU ratings and
possibly the chimney. Many easy venting option available now. It is nice to
have the available BTU capacity over a smaller 40-60,000 BTU/hr. furnace or
tank style water heater. I don’t need the brute capacity but nice for
set-back recovery in the dead of winter from the cooler sleeping settings.

I know many Europeans raised families and not one of them ever saw a
tankless water heater there for central usage. Especially not on the roof of
a Greek home, or a Brit having to turn on the water heater four hours
before, or the night before on the second off-peak rate meter, each week
when they want a bath. :-) Showers? Not since they retired from the navy.


--

Eric

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:14:41 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:



"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:

Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
but hasn't proven easy to implement.

You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.

Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
haven't built one that way personally.

=======

I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric) booster
to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
expense though.

I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as the
basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water to
hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every

Is all of your hot water line insulated?


time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

And it costs him $40/mo for the extra electricity or gas to do that.

--
Fleas can be taught nearly anything that a Congressman can.
-- Mark Twain

"John G" wrote in message
...

Eric presented the following explanation :
The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID
and it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot
water to hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It
also seems to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room
temp every time. I was thinking it should be the other way around.
Meanwhile a neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot
water within 2 seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe
full of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.
Of course the water is saved but the heat (heating power ) is lost.
Choice is on the user I guess.

===============

Definitely! except in the winter the heat displaces some home heating needs
anyway. and costs nothing. Our NG is much cheaper than elect. anyway.

Either N.America will take a step down in their standard of living, down to
Europe's standards using tankless, the tankless will improve from years of
development in Europe, or disappear as a bad sales joke to extract money
from our pockets.

Here is one manufacturer's solution. Check out page 33
http://www.rinnai.us/documentation/d..._revised_A.pdf
Get a tank for your tankless water heater. Now you can spend the money over
and over again!


--

Eric

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:14:41 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:



"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:

Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
but hasn't proven easy to implement.

You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.

Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
haven't built one that way personally.

=======

I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric)
booster
to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
expense though.

I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as
the
basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water
to
hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every

Is all of your hot water line insulated?


time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

And it costs him $40/mo for the extra electricity or gas to do that.

===================

Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=i...l=&oq=grundfos

--

Eric

"Eric" wrote in message ...



"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:14:41 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:



"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:

Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
but hasn't proven easy to implement.

You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.

Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
haven't built one that way personally.

=======

I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric)
booster
to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
expense though.

I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as
the
basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.

The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water
to
hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every

Is all of your hot water line insulated?


time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

And it costs him $40/mo for the extra electricity or gas to do that.

===================

Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=i...l=&oq=grundfos

=====================

Here is a newer unit that has circulation pumps and controls built right
inside the unit. Also a hi-efficiency unit with condensing heat exchangers.
Looks like a newer and more modern unit than the Rinnai (supposed to have
been top of the tech. at the time) I bought two years ago.

http://www.navienamerica.com/PDS/ftp...stallation.pdf

--

Eric

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:


Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=i...l=&oq=grundfos

I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
instead of electricity or gas.

Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

Larry Jaques wrote:


I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

No more... well, you know... out in the back lawn on a warm summer night?
That sucks!

--

-Mike-

On Jun 8, 10:22*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.


You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
fertilizers.
Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 22:42:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:


I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

No more... well, you know... out in the back lawn on a warm summer night?
That sucks!

Oh, hell. The new back lawn is an indoor/outdoor environmental area
with queen-size, ergonomic, adjustable patio bed under a removable
cover. No more bugs, itches, or grass up your/her, um, you know.

If you MUST have grass, install a king-size piece of astro turf on the
deck, Mike.

But where's your sense of adventure, duuuuuuuuude? Haven't you ever
tried it in a hammock? For the less adventurous, there's the floating
bed: http://www.floatingbed.com/products/outdoor-beds#8

KEEP OFF THE GRASS!

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jun 8, 10:22Â*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.


You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
fertilizers.

Can you still use RoundUp or weed killer sprays? It's fertilizers I'd
have banned, were I King. Maybe it's because the weed'n'feed crap
doesn't work well at killing anything that they outlawed it. Nitrogen
runoff from those things is causing algae bloom everywhere.

I'm waiting for my copy of my sister's friend's book about doing away
with lawns. I don't know if it's published yet. Until then, I have a
copy of _The Wild Lawn Handbook_.


Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

Yeah, where would you be without those dear things?


This just in from email:


WORLD SURVEY BY PHONE

Last month a world-wide survey was conducted by the UN.

It had one question: "Would you please give your honest opinion
about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure because of the following:

1. In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

2. In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

3. In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

4. In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

5. In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

6. In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

7. In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

8. In UK they hung up as soon as they heard the Indian accent.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:


Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from
the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs
nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=i...l=&oq=grundfos

I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
instead of electricity or gas.

Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

===============

I am growing "Eco-Grass" . It's a bitch to get going, especially in
thunderstorms that wash out 20-30 yards of topsoil down the ditch, and it
take about two years to look decent, but with it's 9-12" deep roots it is
drought proof, mostly weed proof and needs to be mowed about every three
weeks, only, and it really looks good with a nice fine blade.. Trouble is
the weeds like to stick up much higher and much faster so you mow anyway.
Biggest trick is to ditch the Kentucky Blue Grass = high maintenance, lots
of weeds and dies in a drought quite quickly, tooted as the highest cost
ground cover invented. (I never liked that Blue Grass noise either)


--

Eric

On Jun 9, 3:02*pm, "Eric" wrote:
[snipped]


(I never liked that Blue Grass noise either)

THAT's an automatic suspension.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jun 8, 10:22 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.


You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
fertilizers.

Can you still use RoundUp or weed killer sprays? It's fertilizers I'd
have banned, were I King. Maybe it's because the weed'n'feed crap
doesn't work well at killing anything that they outlawed it. Nitrogen
runoff from those things is causing algae bloom everywhere.

I'm waiting for my copy of my sister's friend's book about doing away
with lawns. I don't know if it's published yet. Until then, I have a
copy of _The Wild Lawn Handbook_.


Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

Yeah, where would you be without those dear things?


This just in from email:


WORLD SURVEY BY PHONE

Last month a world-wide survey was conducted by the UN.

It had one question: "Would you please give your honest opinion
about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure because of the following:

1. In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

2. In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

3. In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

4. In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

5. In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

6. In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

7. In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

8. In UK they hung up as soon as they heard the Indian accent.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

=========
Wife and I both had a good laugh over that one!

--

Eric

Eric wrote the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:


Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales
people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up
from the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs
nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=i...l=&oq=grundfos


I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
instead of electricity or gas.

Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

===============

I am growing "Eco-Grass" . It's a bitch to get going, especially in
thunderstorms that wash out 20-30 yards of topsoil down the ditch, and
it take about two years to look decent, but with it's 9-12" deep roots
it is drought proof, mostly weed proof and needs to be mowed about
every three weeks, only, and it really looks good with a nice fine
blade.. Trouble is the weeds like to stick up much higher and much
faster so you mow anyway. Biggest trick is to ditch the Kentucky Blue
Grass = high maintenance, lots of weeds and dies in a drought quite
quickly, tooted as the highest cost ground cover invented. (I never
liked that Blue Grass noise either)


--

Eric



Can we know where you live? It may make a difference in the responses.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

John G wrote:
Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe full
of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.

There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:58 GMT, scatter
wrote:

John G wrote:
Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe full
of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.

There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.

I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
water? Or does this only work down there?

I watched the movie _Australia_ last night and it was fantastic. Tears
in me eyes and all that. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455824/

--
Happiness is when what you think, what
you say, and what you do are in harmony.
-- Mahatma Gandhi

On 6/17/2011 9:11 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
water? Or does this only work down there?

Just installed one of these in the last kitchen we built:

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

Pretty cool ... or hot, whichever you desire!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
(in article ) :

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever without
using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output of
our RO water system.

Avoid any units where the tank is connected directly to the dispensing valve
(generally the cheapest ones available). The one I first installed and those
installed by several others locally all have died horrible deaths within a
year or two. Usually the valve explodes or the tank thermostat dies. They
also have the tendency to spit hot water regardless of where the temperature
is set.

The preferred units have a remote (1-2+ quart) tank which is better
insulated and generally of higher quality. Pay attention to the valve. More
money spent here means less plastic. Our current Kitchen-Aid unit (about
$300) is the cats meow.

At my day job, they use the cheap in-sink-erator types in the kitchens and
they last about 6 months before breaking. Either they have a large stock of
these or some kind of contract because they keep buying them...

As to the hot water loop, the only solution I see that really works without
wasting lots of power is to install a water heater (5 gallon or so) at the
sink. The trick is to have this fed from the hot water line so by the time
the tank is running low on heat, the 'real' hot water has begun to arrive.
You need to consider the energy used and compare that with the recirculating
pump approach and also consider that this only works at a single point
whereas the recirculator can cover a whole house.
$0.02

-Bruce

On Jun 18, 10:30*am, Bruce wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
(in article ) :

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever without
using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output of
our RO water system.

Avoid any units where the tank is connected directly to the dispensing valve
(generally the cheapest ones available). The one I first installed and those
installed by several others locally all have died horrible deaths within a
year or two. Usually the valve explodes or the tank thermostat dies. They
also have the tendency to spit hot water regardless of where the temperature
is set.

The preferred *units have a remote (1-2+ quart) tank which is better
insulated and generally of higher quality. Pay attention to the valve. More
money spent here means less plastic. Our current Kitchen-Aid unit (about
$300) is the cats meow.

At my day job, they use the cheap in-sink-erator types in the kitchens and
they last about 6 months before breaking. Either they have a large stock of
these or some kind of contract because they keep buying them...

As to the hot water loop, the only solution I see that really works without
wasting lots of power is to install a water heater (5 gallon or so) at the
sink. The trick is to have this fed from the hot water line so by the time
the tank is running low on heat, the 'real' hot water has begun to arrive..
You need to consider the energy used and compare that with the recirculating
pump approach and also consider that this only works at a single point
whereas the recirculator can cover a whole house.
$0.02

-Bruce

Back in 1955 somebody was thinking because the 40 gallon hot water
tank is directly, and I mean directly below the main bathroom. That
particular bathroom sink has, what I would call, instant hot water...
so does the tub and shower.
Now the kitchen, on the other hand, is at the opposite end of the
house. Maybe they weren't thinking that day? G

On 6/18/2011 9:30 AM, Bruce wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
(in articlegoWdnfBWktqpfGbQnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews. com):

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever without
using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output of
our RO water system.

This particular faucet fixture is hooked up to both an InstaHot (?), and
chilled water unit.

On a custom job I don't buy the appliances, I just build the kitchens
and supervise installation of the clients choice in hardware and fixtures.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:58 GMT, scatter
wrote:

There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.

I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
water? Or does this only work down there?


It sounds like a _pump_ connected from the hot line, to the cold line.
=before= they get to the faucet/valves.

On a pressure drop in the hot line (when the faucet is opened), the
pump turns on and draws water out of the hot line, forcing it into the
cold one. More-or-less making the cold water line the 'return' of a
recirculating hot-water system.

When the _water_temperature_ coming into the pump rises to a threshold
value, the pump shuts off.

In a 'simple' installation, this will get hot water to a 'slightly open'
faucet as quickly as if the faucet was turned 'all the way on'.

If there is an 'anti-backflow valve' installed between the pump intake and
the faucet valve, then one can use a bigger pump -- one that pulls a net
suction on the hot-water supply, and thus moves the water faster than a
full-open faucet would. This, however, leads to the 'counter-intuitive'
situation of turning on the hot water, and more-or-less _nothing_ comes
out until the water is up to temperature.

Larry Jaques wrote:

I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
water? Or does this only work down there?

Its an electronic system that senses taps opening and water temperature. No
water comes out of the hot water faucet until it's up to temperature. It
gets pumped back into the cold water line - it saves water without eating
too much power (which can be a big deal during our droughts).

Here's a page showing one.
http://www.mrsolar.com.au/water-saver.htm