-MIKE- wrote:
On 6/7/11 1:27 PM, EXT wrote:
I don't care what they cost, next one I buy will be tank-less.
The added efficiency must make up for the added cost fairly soon.
That and the fact that if I want to take a 2 hour shower, I can.
And it's none of your business why I'm taking a 2 hour shower.

I have a tank style water heater that is high efficiency. When first
installed it heated up 40 gallons of water from cold winter input
temperature to 140 degrees F. in 12 minutes. To run it sips the gas, cut
my gas consumption down considerably and screwed up the gas companies
estimates for that season. The exhaust is barely warm to the touch. It
is the best of both worlds, you cannot use the hot water faster than it
can make it, just like a tankless but with a tank as a reserve and non
of the tankless problems and maintenance.

If you find an opportunity to write down the make and model, I'd like to
have it for future reference. Thanks.

Hybrid with a reserve tank?

http://www.ho****er.com/water-heater...xt-hybrid-gas/

--
www.ewoodshop.com

On 6/7/2011 8:20 PM, Eric wrote:
Using a manifold on a hot water distribution system in a home is a big
mistake! Cold water it works great but I have had to remove two of them
so far. Too much delay in getting the hot water to the faucets and
customers find it intolerable and wasteful. Add that delay to the
tankless turn on delay and it adds up to much dissatisfaction. The
manifold look like a nice tidy, modular, installation but makes a huge
reservoir to fill up with hot water before the person gets any. Tree
branch circuits work much better, as proven on years of experience with
copper run systems. Each location use of hot water usage gets the heated
water closer to the next outlet. Of course, cool down occurs and you
start over at certain times of the day the same as with a manifold
anyway. Many have installed hot water circulator pumps to keep the hot
water close to the faucets and decrease delays but this doesn't work
with a tankless at all.

Watch that paraphrased Google knowledge, it'll bite you in the butt just
like your plumbing salesman ...

Water temperature and source makes no difference to a manifold delivery
system itself, hot or cold, tank or tankless.

With a PEX mainfold system, properly located and installed, the water in
the usual 3/8" tubing has a higher water velocity, and the water, hot or
cold, is delivered much faster than with a conventional piping system,
tank or tankless, and with a lower volume in the tubing ... albeit not
much more "green" on that score.

Once again, proper planning and installation to the forefront.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 6/7/2011 8:20 PM, Eric wrote:
Using a manifold on a hot water distribution system in a home is a big
mistake! Cold water it works great but I have had to remove two of them
so far. Too much delay in getting the hot water to the faucets and
customers find it intolerable and wasteful. Add that delay to the
tankless turn on delay and it adds up to much dissatisfaction. The
manifold look like a nice tidy, modular, installation but makes a huge
reservoir to fill up with hot water before the person gets any. Tree
branch circuits work much better, as proven on years of experience with
copper run systems. Each location use of hot water usage gets the heated
water closer to the next outlet. Of course, cool down occurs and you
start over at certain times of the day the same as with a manifold
anyway. Many have installed hot water circulator pumps to keep the hot
water close to the faucets and decrease delays but this doesn't work
with a tankless at all.

Watch that paraphrased Google knowledge, it'll bite you in the butt just
like your plumbing salesman ...

Water temperature and source makes no difference to a manifold delivery
system itself, hot or cold, tank or tankless.

With a PEX mainfold system, properly located and installed, the water in
the usual 3/8" tubing has a higher water velocity, and the water, hot or
cold, is delivered much faster than with a conventional piping system,
tank or tankless, and with a lower volume in the tubing ... albeit not
much more "green" on that score.

Once again, proper planning and installation to the forefront.
====================

The tankless water heater problems are not addressed with design techniques
of water delivery systems.
Hot and cold water have different requirements for delivery. Cold water can
go to Timbuktu and back and there isn't much ill effect on it. Hot water
needs to be delivered before it cools off.

That may be the biggest problem with this stuff here. 1/2" is the standard
and 3/8" is very uncommon and more difficult to obtain. There may even be
a code issue as PEX is new on the scene.

We do not use 3/8" tubing. We only have 1/2" PEX pipe used for plumbing.
Plumbing uses pipe sizes, not tubing. 3/8" PEX pipe could make more sense
to fill less reservoir with hot water before delivery. I am not familiar
with an code issues on the smaller size.

I only know the latest system delivers hot water much more efficiently
without the manifold and longer lengths of reservoir.

--

Eric

"Eric" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

The tankless water heater problems are not addressed with design
techniques of water delivery systems.

Disagree... they can be, and they should be if you have the opportunity to
do so.

Hot and cold water have different requirements for delivery. Cold water
can go to Timbuktu and back and there isn't much ill effect on it. Hot
water needs to be delivered before it cools off.

That's not what you said ... You specifically state that about a manifold
system, which I have proven in practice to not be the case with proper
attention to detail.

That may be the biggest problem with this stuff here. 1/2" is the
standard and 3/8" is very uncommon and more difficult to obtain. There
may even be a code issue as PEX is new on the scene.

A 1/8" diameter difference in pipe is significantly and mathematically
different as far as flow and volume characteristics.

The tail that wags the dog with diameter is the fixture requirements ...
There is not a one size fits all that will cover all bases and make
everyone happy.

We do not use 3/8" tubing. We only have 1/2" PEX pipe used for plumbing.
Plumbing uses pipe sizes, not tubing. 3/8" PEX pipe could make more
sense to fill less reservoir with hot water before delivery. I am not
familiar with an code issues on the smaller size.

One of the jurisdictions I build in does not allow PEX ... It is why I'm so
painfully aware of the differences in tankless delivery that are possible
with a PEX manifold system when called for.

I only know the latest system delivers hot water much more efficiently
without the manifold and longer lengths of reservoir.

Every plumbing situation is unique (even in tract homes with supposedly
identical plumbing schemes) so the above is not surprising.

Again, the toughest thing to get correct is tankless in a retrofit/remodel,
much easier to design, install, tweak in new construction, there are simply
too many shoe merchants and ribbon clerks in the game, and even plumbers
will not agree on much of it.

And again, it is why I do not have tankless in my own home to this day,
which I built before the technology was readily available locally.

That said, the next new house, and the ones after that, that I build will
more than likely be spec'd for tankless as long as it is in a jurisdiction
that allows me insure that a design for that particular and unique
situation can be forthcoming, and that it will satisfy me, and the customer
.... anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I abhor callbacks....
Nuff said.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Eric" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

The tankless water heater problems are not addressed with design
techniques of water delivery systems.

Disagree... they can be, and they should be if you have the opportunity to
do so.

Hot and cold water have different requirements for delivery. Cold water
can go to Timbuktu and back and there isn't much ill effect on it. Hot
water needs to be delivered before it cools off.

That's not what you said ... You specifically state that about a manifold
system, which I have proven in practice to not be the case with proper
attention to detail.

That may be the biggest problem with this stuff here. 1/2" is the
standard and 3/8" is very uncommon and more difficult to obtain. There
may even be a code issue as PEX is new on the scene.

A 1/8" diameter difference in pipe is significantly and mathematically
different as far as flow and volume characteristics.

The tail that wags the dog with diameter is the fixture requirements ...
There is not a one size fits all that will cover all bases and make
everyone happy.

We do not use 3/8" tubing. We only have 1/2" PEX pipe used for plumbing.
Plumbing uses pipe sizes, not tubing. 3/8" PEX pipe could make more
sense to fill less reservoir with hot water before delivery. I am not
familiar with an code issues on the smaller size.

One of the jurisdictions I build in does not allow PEX ... It is why I'm so
painfully aware of the differences in tankless delivery that are possible
with a PEX manifold system when called for.

I only know the latest system delivers hot water much more efficiently
without the manifold and longer lengths of reservoir.

Every plumbing situation is unique (even in tract homes with supposedly
identical plumbing schemes) so the above is not surprising.

Again, the toughest thing to get correct is tankless in a retrofit/remodel,
much easier to design, install, tweak in new construction, there are simply
too many shoe merchants and ribbon clerks in the game, and even plumbers
will not agree on much of it.

And again, it is why I do not have tankless in my own home to this day,
which I built before the technology was readily available locally.

That said, the next new house, and the ones after that, that I build will
more than likely be spec'd for tankless as long as it is in a jurisdiction
that allows me insure that a design for that particular and unique
situation can be forthcoming, and that it will satisfy me, and the customer
.... anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I abhor callbacks....
Nuff said.

================
All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some
experience with one and your well thought out design. I am sure they improve
them each new model and that may help some. I have noted changes from the
manufacture, in my conversation with an Engineer today, to help these
problems, somewhat.

Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow drifts
choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating source. I am
debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been a nuisance and,
again, installation of the water delivery system has nothing to do with it
any of their inherent problems. Even the manufacturers show methods to add
tanks and circ pumps to alleviate their known inherent problems. No delivery
system design techniques are involved.

--

Eric

Eric wrote:


Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. What are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

--

-Mike-

"Eric" wrote:

All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some
experience with one and your well thought out design.

I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years
with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?

Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...

--
www.ewoodshop.com

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Eric" wrote:

All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some
experience with one and your well thought out design.

I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years
with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?

Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...

=====

You admit, after all the authoritative hype and issue avoidance , you have
no experience using or owning a tankless unit??

Despite multitudes of complaints about the same problems from actual
experienced people, you classically blame the installer. Classic salesman
BS, right on cue. My guess was correct right from your first empty defense.

I don't need to return any insulting comments for that one. It speaks for
itself.

Again, best of luck with your sales hype. There are some better units
available coming on the market.

--

Eric

Eric wrote:


You admit, after all the authoritative hype and issue avoidance , you
have no experience using or owning a tankless unit??

Hey Eric - I think you missed posts by Swing that he had indeed installed
them in homes he's built, or been part of building. He was very specific in
why his home does not have one, and he was equally clear that he has
experience with them in builds.


--

-Mike-

"Eric" wrote in message
...


"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Eric" wrote:

All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some
experience with one and your well thought out design.

I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years
with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?

Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...

=====

You admit, after all the authoritative hype and issue avoidance , you have
no experience using or owning a tankless unit??

He installed SEVEN. NONE out of SEVEN had issues. How hard is that to grasp?

"Eric" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Eric" wrote:

All that preaching from you we will see when you actually have some
experience with one and your well thought out design.

I've installed seven whole house tankless units in the last three years
with none of the problems you're experiencing ... and you, how many?

Your data set, and your ignorance are both showing ...

=====

You admit, after all the authoritative hype and issue avoidance , you
have no experience using or owning a tankless unit??

Despite multitudes of complaints about the same problems from actual
experienced people, you classically blame the installer. Classic salesman
BS, right on cue. My guess was correct right from your first empty defense.

I don't need to return any insulting comments for that one. It speaks for itself.

Again, best of luck with your sales hype. There are some better units
available coming on the market.

Let's recap .... Based on your own words you have experience with one
installation; an installation which you publicly admit was based on
"plumbers BS" and "salesman hype", and for which you admittedly fell; an
installation that subsequently doesn't work (big surprise); a faulty
installation for which you have repeatedly failed to find a solution; and,
despite a public litany of your own failed efforts in that regard, you have
somehow deluded yourself into believing that you possess a superior
knowledge of the technology, of how to make it work, and that the design,
planning and/ or installation of same is somehow not at fault??

Good luck with that line of self delusional reasoning, Bubba ... you'll
need all you can get.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

"Eric" reminds me of the comet that bursts into sight burning ever so
brightly only to fade ever so quickly into the night time sky.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Eric" reminds me of the comet that bursts into sight burning ever so
brightly only to fade ever so quickly into the night time sky.

Don't blame him for being somewhat bitter though ... Too damn many
opportunist in the home building industry have been screwing folks for far
too long. The trade "associations" of the big boys spend half their time
polishing their image, and the other half hell bent on tarnishing it.

--
www.ewoodshop.com

On 6/8/11 11:53 PM, Swingman wrote:
The trade "associations" of the big boys spend half their time
polishing their image, and the other half hell bent on tarnishing it.


brilliant.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Eric wrote:


Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. What are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

--

Hydronic heating in the basement floor makes the walkout basement really
decent living space. Would never build or spec another house without it
again. The hydronic heat is so even and comfortable I would never go back to
a forced air furnace system.

Solar hot water also has it's possibilities, somewhat and since solar
typically puts out lower temperatures it takes a large radiating surface to
accommodate those lower supply temperatures.

Efficiency of heating system. The bragged higher efficiency of the tankless
heaters makes the system a little more efficient than a NG furnace. After
spending money on a high-efficiency furnace last house I won't do it again
for the few bucks saved, higher risk of technology failure...and noise from
a pulse furnace that loses it\s efficiency as it ages anyway. Higher
efficiency tankless units are just coming on the scene most economically and
I knew that at the time.

Non-availability of a furnace under 60,000 BTU when I only needed about
25,000 BTU at -30C. The heating would cycle so fast the efficiency would
barely make the 50% burner efficiency with such short burner runs. I
insulated the crap out of this place with double walls, R30-R40 in all
walls.
Cooling effect of running well water through hydronic systems to assist with
summer cooling.

--

Eric

In article ,
says...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Eric wrote:


Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. What are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

For some reason folks who do radiant floors seem to prefer using
tankless water heaters and cobbling their own circulating pumps and
controls over using a purpose-made hydronic boiler. The output on
tankless water heaters is in the same ballpark as for typical
residential hydronic boilers.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

In article ,
says...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Eric wrote:


Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. What
are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

For some reason folks who do radiant floors seem to prefer using
tankless water heaters and cobbling their own circulating pumps and
controls over using a purpose-made hydronic boiler. The output on
tankless water heaters is in the same ballpark as for typical
residential hydronic boilers.

================

There would be a difference of $1200 to $12,000 for an open system unit,
perhaps?

Are there even open system boilers available? Do any hang on the wall? What
are the footprint sizes for a 180K BTU range unit?

Can a home owner install a boiler him/herself?

Could I go to HD and purchase a boiler unit? Not that I don't think their
brand is a POS and is rated that way by users.

--

Eric

On Jun 10, 9:14*am, "Eric" wrote:
"J. Clarke" *wrote in message

in.local...

In article ,
says...







"Mike Marlow" *wrote in message
...

Eric wrote:

Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, *installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. *I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. *What
are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

For some reason folks who do radiant floors seem to prefer using
tankless water heaters and cobbling their own circulating pumps and
controls over using a purpose-made hydronic boiler. *The output on
tankless water heaters is in the same ballpark as for typical
residential hydronic boilers.

================

There would be a difference of $1200 to $12,000 for an open system unit,
perhaps?

Are there even open system boilers available? Do any hang on the wall? What
are the footprint sizes for a 180K BTU range unit?

Can a home owner install a boiler him/herself?

Could I go to HD and purchase a boiler unit? *Not that I don't think their
brand is a POS and is rated that way by users.

--

Eric

Hot water heating (and chilling) has always made more sense to me. You
can get as much heat through a 1" line of water as you can through a
18" air duct, it makes zone control a lot simpler, installation simple
and not to mention all that pollen and dust not flying around.
Add the in-floor option and unless you have ever lived in a house that
has in-floor heating, you don't know what you're missing.
Hot water for washing/cooking is best done at point of use with NG
fired small tankless units.
Some of the modern 'over-the-sink' small local 'geysers' are by far
the most efficient way the get hot water... (aside from solar etc.)

The house I grew up in (as such) had a tankless unit NG over the end
wall of the bathtub. INstant, limitless hot water. It wasn't very big
and kind of neat looking too. It did not waste any space either. That
was 45+ years ago.

History teaches us that when energy sources seem to be limitless, the
engines become 7 liters in displacement, furnaces inefficient, etc.,
etc. NO consideration for the next generations, and willingly becoming
hostages to those nations who DO have energy to spare...to the point
where it almost seems de rigueur to invade them at behest of the oil
giants just so we can avoid having to tell our citizenry to cool it
with the waste already.

It was 95°F here a day or so ago and I walked into an office where the
guy had the air conditioning on full blast and the window open
"because he liked the smell of the lake's fresh air". Idiot.

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...

In article ,
says...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

Eric wrote:


Right now I have to improve my venting as the seven foot high snow
drifts choke it off in the winter and it is not reliable as a heating
source. I am debating to just replace it with a tank style. It's been
a nuisance and, again, installation of the water delivery system has
nothing to do with it any of their inherent problems. Even the
manufacturers show methods to add tanks and circ pumps to alleviate
their known inherent problems. No delivery system design techniques
are involved.

I'm missing something here Eric. I'm up in snow country as well, and I
would never consider a hot water systemas a means to heat a house. What
are
you thinking about when you mention using it as a heating source?

For some reason folks who do radiant floors seem to prefer using
tankless water heaters and cobbling their own circulating pumps and
controls over using a purpose-made hydronic boiler. The output on
tankless water heaters is in the same ballpark as for typical
residential hydronic boilers.

================

There would be a difference of $1200 to $12,000 for an open system unit,
perhaps?

What third world Hellhole do you inhabit that a hydronic boiler costs
$12,000? $4000 would be a very high end high efficiency unit.

Are there even open system boilers available? Do any hang on the wall? What
are the footprint sizes for a 180K BTU range unit?

Yes, they're available, yes you can get them that hang on the wall
(although why that's important I have no idea).

Open vs closed system is pretty much a matter of how you plumb it.
However I don't see the point of an open system either.

Can a home owner install a boiler him/herself?

Depends. If it's gas and you're not used to working with gas pipes you
really should have somebody who knows what they're doing hook it up.

Could I go to HD and purchase a boiler unit? Not that I don't think their
brand is a POS and is rated that way by users.

What brand is that? Home Depot doesn't make heating equipment, they
sell whatever brand you want.

But yes, they typically have a few boilers in stock.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

Hot water heating

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZT!


--
The ultimate result of shielding men from the
effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer

On Jun 10, 8:30*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy

wrote:
Hot water heating

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZT!

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from the
effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *--Herbert Spencer

Is it ready? Tea is made?

One can take hot water and heat it to a higher temperature? (Keeerist,
I just sounded like Clarke...*banging head on desk*)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
wrote:

On Jun 10, 8:30Â*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy

wrote:
Hot water heating

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZT!


Is it ready? Tea is made?

One can take hot water and heat it to a higher temperature? (Keeerist,
I just sounded like Clarke...*banging head on desk*)

OK, you made my point for me. Bang your head harder, alright?
I didn't hear it.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from the
effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer