"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2011 7:54 PM, Leon wrote:
wrote in message
...
...

Curious...which dovetail template/system are you using ...

Leigh Jig

That was my guess, thanks...I have one of the fixed-spacing P-C types
which works ok but doesn't have the flexibility to deal with arbitrary
spacing.

--


Fixed spacing is not absolutely a bad thing when it comes to consistent
results. Swingman has lately been having problems with the fingers slipping
and getting inconsistent fit results. I use the Leigh jig also however have
not yet seen any problems. IMHO an adjustable finger jig with something
more than a friction fit to hold the fingers would be a plus, thinking the
Akeda, or something like the Akeda.

On 2/27/2011 9:57 AM, Leon wrote:
....
Fixed spacing is not absolutely a bad thing when it comes to consistent
results. Swingman has lately been having problems with the fingers slipping
and getting inconsistent fit results. I use the Leigh jig also however have
not yet seen any problems. IMHO an adjustable finger jig with something
more than a friction fit to hold the fingers would be a plus, thinking the
Akeda, or something like the Akeda.

Indeed, I've heard that complaint before on the Leigh (maybe a
conversation here w/ Swingman, who knows/remembers?).

I'm limited in this application to pre-ordained drawer heights and they
don't fit the jig spacing well for most if not all so it's either get
something else ready built or build jigs specifically for the runs (or,
of course, cut them by hand which ain't bad except for the numbers ).

I'd kinda' forgotten the Akeda--seems like maybe PC has introduced
something not too long ago, as well I think???

I've been on the barn and other big stuff so long I've not done anything
smallish scale in number of years now...this has been pushed off for
almost 10 yrs now...before spring planting season I'm determined to get
at least going on it ('course, I've said that before, too! ).

--

On 2/27/2011 10:06 AM, dpb wrote:
On 2/27/2011 9:57 AM, Leon wrote:
...
Fixed spacing is not absolutely a bad thing when it comes to consistent
results. Swingman has lately been having problems with the fingers
slipping
and getting inconsistent fit results. I use the Leigh jig also however
have
not yet seen any problems. IMHO an adjustable finger jig with something
more than a friction fit to hold the fingers would be a plus, thinking
the
Akeda, or something like the Akeda.

Indeed, I've heard that complaint before on the Leigh (maybe a
conversation here w/ Swingman, who knows/remembers?).

I'm limited in this application to pre-ordained drawer heights and they
don't fit the jig spacing well for most if not all so it's either get
something else ready built or build jigs specifically for the runs (or,
of course, cut them by hand which ain't bad except for the numbers ).

I'd kinda' forgotten the Akeda--seems like maybe PC has introduced
something not too long ago, as well I think???

I've been on the barn and other big stuff so long I've not done anything
smallish scale in number of years now...this has been pushed off for
almost 10 yrs now...before spring planting season I'm determined to get
at least going on it ('course, I've said that before, too! ).

My old Leigh D4 has been an excellent small shop production tool, but it
has been used to build more drawers and cabinets than many will ever
have to face, and the inherent problems with the design have become
magnified in the both the hard usage, and the process.

charlieb, here on the wRec has an excellent treatise on his website on
the inherent design problems with the various types of dovetail jigs
that will be well worth your time to DAGS)

Bottom line is that I would have already bought the Akeda (based in no
small part on charlieb's review) had it been available on this last job,
but its production/availability seems to be sporadic last time I checked
and none were to be had at any price.

Hope that has changed, or will change, because it looks like the way to
go for the current "state of the art" of adjustable spacing dovetail jigs.

unfortunately there is absolutely NO financial feasibility in doing
small shop production runs by hand, regardless of the desirability of
doing so

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2011 9:57 AM, Leon wrote:
...
Fixed spacing is not absolutely a bad thing when it comes to consistent
results. Swingman has lately been having problems with the fingers
slipping
and getting inconsistent fit results. I use the Leigh jig also however
have
not yet seen any problems. IMHO an adjustable finger jig with something
more than a friction fit to hold the fingers would be a plus, thinking
the
Akeda, or something like the Akeda.

Indeed, I've heard that complaint before on the Leigh (maybe a
conversation here w/ Swingman, who knows/remembers?).

I'm limited in this application to pre-ordained drawer heights and they
don't fit the jig spacing well for most if not all so it's either get
something else ready built or build jigs specifically for the runs (or, of
course, cut them by hand which ain't bad except for the numbers ).

I'd kinda' forgotten the Akeda--seems like maybe PC has introduced
something not too long ago, as well I think???


All things being equal concerning the latest from PC, think Leig Jig,
destroyer...... PC DT jig, air crafter carrier, it is huge, almost the same
width of a sheet of plywood, more than 13 inches tall and 18" front to back
and 66 lbs.
http://www.portercable.com/Products/...roductID=16132

On 2/27/2011 10:06 AM, dpb wrote:


I'm limited in this application to pre-ordained drawer heights and they
don't fit the jig spacing well for most if not all so it's either get
something else ready built or build jigs specifically for the runs (or,
of course, cut them by hand which ain't bad except for the numbers ).

The show stopper for fixed dovetail jigs is that you do usually want
dovetails to show, which usually means under mount drawer slides.

These slides mandate the precise placing of the drawer bottoms dado,
meaning you must have the ability to able to space the dovetails where
this dado is invisible in the sides after assembly.

It is also another reason why jigs, like the PC, that allow you to cut
both sides of a half blind dovetail at the same time, also fail ... the
spacing must be fixed in that configuration, IIRC, making the above
impossible/unlikely.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 27, 1:34*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/27/2011 10:06 AM, dpb wrote:



I'm limited in this application to pre-ordained drawer heights and they
don't fit the jig spacing well for most if not all so it's either get
something else ready built or build jigs specifically for the runs (or,
of course, cut them by hand which ain't bad except for the numbers ).

The show stopper for fixed dovetail jigs is that you do usually want
dovetails to show, which usually means under mount drawer slides.

These slides mandate the precise placing of the drawer bottoms dado,
meaning you must have the ability to able to space the dovetails where
this dado is invisible in the sides after assembly.

It is also another reason why jigs, like the PC, that allow you to cut
both sides of a half blind dovetail at the same time, also fail ... the
spacing must be fixed in that configuration, IIRC, making the above
impossible/unlikely.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

My solution, some 25+ years ago was, in one word, Metabox.
G
Of course, there aren't any in my house.....

IMNSHO, I prefer the look of those domino drawers over the ol'
dovetails. By quite a margin.

On 2/27/2011 2:39 PM, Robatoy wrote:

My solution, some 25+ years ago was, in one word, Metabox.
G
Of course, there aren't any in my house.....

IMNSHO, I prefer the look of those domino drawers over the ol'
dovetails. By quite a margin.

Do have a mutilator, eerr Multi-Router to fall back on, but the set up
and extra cost of the inserts is not cost effective enough for my liking.

Yeah ... I like them myself. If this particular client had seen them
first, Leon could have made all the damn drawers (close to 50 and rising
at last count), which would have suited me just fine.

Besides, his new shop needed the tune-up ... and it raised the tone of
the place to a high level for future projects.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2011 2:39 PM, Robatoy wrote:

My solution, some 25+ years ago was, in one word, Metabox.
G
Of course, there aren't any in my house.....

IMNSHO, I prefer the look of those domino drawers over the ol'
dovetails. By quite a margin.

Do have a mutilator, eerr Multi-Router to fall back on, but the set up and
extra cost of the inserts is not cost effective enough for my liking.

Yeah ... I like them myself. If this particular client had seen them
first, Leon could have made all the damn drawers (close to 50 and rising
at last count), which would have suited me just fine.


Not sure my stomach could'a stomached 50 if'n you know what I mean. ;~)
Darn twisty wood.

On 2/27/2011 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 2/27/2011 2:39 PM, Robatoy wrote:

My solution, some 25+ years ago was, in one word, Metabox.
G
Of course, there aren't any in my house.....

IMNSHO, I prefer the look of those domino drawers over the ol'
dovetails. By quite a margin.

Do have a mutilator, eerr Multi-Router to fall back on, but the set up and
extra cost of the inserts is not cost effective enough for my liking.

Yeah ... I like them myself. If this particular client had seen them
first, Leon could have made all the damn drawers (close to 50 and rising
at last count), which would have suited me just fine.


Not sure my stomach could'a stomached 50 if'n you know what I mean. ;~)
Darn twisty wood.

Whew!! You musta gotten all the branch wood.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 27, 5:12*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/27/2011 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:





*wrote in message
m...
On 2/27/2011 2:39 PM, Robatoy wrote:

My solution, some 25+ years ago was, in one word, Metabox.
G
Of course, there aren't any in my house.....

IMNSHO, I prefer the look of those domino drawers over the ol'
dovetails. By quite a margin.

Do have a mutilator, eerr Multi-Router to fall back on, but the set up and
extra cost of the inserts is not cost effective enough for my liking.

Yeah ... I like them myself. If this particular client had seen them
first, Leon could have made all the damn drawers (close to 50 and rising
at last count), which would have suited me just fine.

Not sure my stomach could'a stomached 50 if'n you know what I mean. *;~)
Darn twisty wood.

Whew!! You musta gotten all the branch wood.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Them there trees that grow on the side of a hill.

On 2/27/2011 11:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
....
Bottom line is that I would have already bought the Akeda (based in no
small part on charlieb's review) had it been available on this last job,
but its production/availability seems to be sporadic last time I checked
and none were to be had at any price.

Hope that has changed, or will change, because it looks like the way to
go for the current "state of the art" of adjustable spacing dovetail jigs.

It appears from another forum google found that as of a couple weeks ago
the current owner of the the Akeda rights is hoping he might have
production starting again by fall...all in all, the info I could find
makes it look kinda' iffy at best that it will happen at all would be my
guess.

That won't help much now, unfortunately.

unfortunately there is absolutely NO financial feasibility in doing
small shop production runs by hand, regardless of the desirability of
doing so

For anything production, certainly so...I don't have to worry about
making a profit here, but realistically on the time to ever get done w/
what _does_ have to get done for profit farming means it ain't feasible,
here, either.

--

On 2/23/2011 1:55 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/23/2011 12:23 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

....

~ Background: All these kitchen drawers are 3/4" hard maple, half blind
dovetails, with 1/2" A-1 maple ply bottoms mounted on KV MUV34
Undermount slides ...

as you know, doing this kind of work, the drawer slides themselves are
the 'tail that wags the dog' as far as drawer dimensions, their design,
and very often, the type of joinery that must be used

... with the exception of one drawer:

In the kitchen, a special, shallow kitchen KNIFE drawer was made in a
similar fashion as first above because the drawer depth was simply too
shallow for half blind dovetails with undermount drawer slides and a
1/2" bottom.
....

One more side question...

I had in mind in the retrofit here to use undermount slides as well
until I realized the same problem of they simply require to much lost
space for the space available and number of drawers that are too few
already (and there's not an option to make the kitchen larger here).

So, I've been looking for an alternate better than the corner-mounted
rollers and center track that Dad used that can still get fit in (I
built the cabinets and drawer boxes for folks some 30 year ago in a
quick trip home and left the door-hanging, drawer mounting and finishing
to him after went back home). Now they're getting old and I'm remaking
doors and drawer fronts and going to refinish the faces.

The drawer boxes are 7/16" oak w/ 1/4" bottoms an approximate 3/8" space
from bottom of bottom to bottom of side. The pretty well fit the
opening on sides. Not sure, may not have much choice other than fit
center tracks/rails w/ a UHMW glide.

Have you run across anything that might be a suitable selection? As
noted, I hate to think of making the drawers themselves any smaller than
they already are; I was planning on cutting off the existing fronts and
cut the tails in place and go inset instead of overlay for both drawer
fronts and doors.

--

On 3/2/2011 1:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/23/2011 1:55 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/23/2011 12:23 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

...

~ Background: All these kitchen drawers are 3/4" hard maple, half blind
dovetails, with 1/2" A-1 maple ply bottoms mounted on KV MUV34
Undermount slides ...

as you know, doing this kind of work, the drawer slides themselves are
the 'tail that wags the dog' as far as drawer dimensions, their design,
and very often, the type of joinery that must be used

... with the exception of one drawer:

In the kitchen, a special, shallow kitchen KNIFE drawer was made in a
similar fashion as first above because the drawer depth was simply too
shallow for half blind dovetails with undermount drawer slides and a
1/2" bottom.
...

One more side question...

I had in mind in the retrofit here to use undermount slides as well
until I realized the same problem of they simply require to much lost
space for the space available and number of drawers that are too few
already (and there's not an option to make the kitchen larger here).

So, I've been looking for an alternate better than the corner-mounted
rollers and center track that Dad used that can still get fit in (I
built the cabinets and drawer boxes for folks some 30 year ago in a
quick trip home and left the door-hanging, drawer mounting and finishing
to him after went back home). Now they're getting old and I'm remaking
doors and drawer fronts and going to refinish the faces.

The drawer boxes are 7/16" oak w/ 1/4" bottoms an approximate 3/8" space
from bottom of bottom to bottom of side. The pretty well fit the opening
on sides. Not sure, may not have much choice other than fit center
tracks/rails w/ a UHMW glide.

Have you run across anything that might be a suitable selection? As
noted, I hate to think of making the drawers themselves any smaller than
they already are; I was planning on cutting off the existing fronts and
cut the tails in place and go inset instead of overlay for both drawer
fronts and doors.

Sorry ... I've been making sure that this post remained as "unread"
until I had time to reply.

I agree with Leon. Having built hundreds of drawers that were spec'ed
for under mount hardware, I've been unable to find a centermount
solution that would work in the kind of drawers you would want to use in
a kitchen.

I have used single, centermount underdrawer slides for smaller drawers
in desks and chests, but still ending up being forced to support the
drawer sides with some type of support, like UHMW strips. These would
not be practical in a kitchen, IMO

I've also seen another practice that works, but that I don't necessarily
buy into, and that is using 3/4 extension side mount slides, mounted
horizontally under the drawers instead of on the sides.

As long as you use a heavy duty slide that far exceeds the expected
drawer load you may get away with it. But, the slide mechanism itself is
not designed for a load in that direction and I'm of the opinion that
they won't last long when used in such a contraindicated manner.

As you already know, undermount drawer slides are very picky about
drawer dimensions and the drawers must be built within a narrow range of
the specified dimensions to work at all.

I've never seen a case where an existing drawer could be retrofitted to
accept today's undermount slides ... but you could always get lucky,
and, IMO, that's what it would take.

Basically ... what Leon said.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/5/2011 10:19 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/2/2011 1:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 2/23/2011 1:55 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/23/2011 12:23 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

...

....

The drawer boxes are 7/16" oak w/ 1/4" bottoms an approximate 3/8" space
from bottom of bottom to bottom of side. The pretty well fit the opening
on sides. Not sure, may not have much choice other than fit center
tracks/rails w/ a UHMW glide.

Have you run across anything that might be a suitable selection? As
noted, I hate to think of making the drawers themselves any smaller than
they already are; I was planning on cutting off the existing fronts and
cut the tails in place and go inset instead of overlay for both drawer
fronts and doors.

Sorry ... I've been making sure that this post remained as "unread"
until I had time to reply.

I agree with Leon. Having built hundreds of drawers that were spec'ed
for under mount hardware, I've been unable to find a centermount
solution that would work in the kind of drawers you would want to use in
a kitchen.

I have used single, centermount underdrawer slides for smaller drawers
in desks and chests, but still ending up being forced to support the
drawer sides with some type of support, like UHMW strips. These would
not be practical in a kitchen, IMO

I've also seen another practice that works, but that I don't necessarily
buy into, and that is using 3/4 extension side mount slides, mounted
horizontally under the drawers instead of on the sides.

As long as you use a heavy duty slide that far exceeds the expected
drawer load you may get away with it. But, the slide mechanism itself is
not designed for a load in that direction and I'm of the opinion that
they won't last long when used in such a contraindicated manner.

As you already know, undermount drawer slides are very picky about
drawer dimensions and the drawers must be built within a narrow range of
the specified dimensions to work at all.

I've never seen a case where an existing drawer could be retrofitted to
accept today's undermount slides ... but you could always get lucky,
and, IMO, that's what it would take.

Basically ... what Leon said.
....

OK, thanks for the input...I hear ya'...

I've done the side-mount turned flat underneath here for the printer
slideout tray on the office desk I built when moved back and still had
leftover consulting contracts to clean up for first few years from the
previous life. As noted, they don't have the lateral strength to
support the weight on their own so wouldn't consider that for a
repetitive application like the kitchen. But, it works nicely for the
space-saving app w/ the printer that only has to come out occasionally
and has an underneath support that sits on the floor to support the
printer when need it out to, say, scan larger document.

As noted in the other thread, I think I'll try a couple of the KV1129's;
it turns out that the underneath drawer dimension does just happen to be
their spec so looks like from that standpoint I did turn lucky, maybe.
If not, I'll deal w/ the situation on down the road as I can live w/ the
existing if have to for a while yet; I do want to finish the doors and
get them hung before spring planting has to begin 'cause it cannot in
any circumstances be put off when the day comes it's warm enough and we
have moisture--everything else will have to wait at that point and
harvest isn't far behind that and so chances are good nothing else will
get done 'til next winter once farm season actually arrives...

Thanks for the input; just thought since you/Leon in particular here are
active and it's been 30 yr now since were doing the retro houses in
Lynchburg there might be something that's the cat's meow was unaware of
as an alternative solution.

--