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" writes:
On Jul 22, 5:55=A0am, Bill wrote: =A0 My favorite technique, one I learned on the Internet, is to remove th= e conduit from the end of a romex cable by pulling the ground wire. =A0I mark the spot I want to remove it to, and I make sure I have at least an extra inch, because it's tricky to "stop on a dime". =A0It's my favorite technique because I have great confidence that my conductor wires won't get nicked (it's fast too)! =A0I have definitely learned something! =A0I'= m much less excited about learning to install insulation (fiberglass is evidently nasty stuff). Better yet, use an insulation cutter. It's a wire-cutter looking thing with dog-bone shaped cutter jaws that just slice the outer jacket of NM wire. After the jacket is cut, simply pull on the end and it comes right off. I think the cutter was $20 at the BORG. http://cgi.ebay.com/11-Gardner-Bende...-/220637185806 scott |
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On Jul 22, 3:54*pm, Bill wrote:
wrote: I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. *Well, do it this Winter. *100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? No, it's not all that bad sitting there. There is nothing particularly dangerous to worry about, just that the glass wool is a major aggravation when it gets on you. Sweat will make the fibers stick and itch like crazy. In the Winter your pores will be closed (and you'll likely be wearing more clothes) so it's not nearly as bad. After you're done working simply take a coolish shower to wash the fibers off without getting them in the pores (microscopic cuts are the real issue). In this application I'd use unfaced insulation with a plastic sheet vapor barrier. Unfaced insulation is significantly cheaper and you can use whatever thickness of plastic you see fit. You can seal it tighter, as well. If you're going to leave the walls open for a while, simply use a thicker plastic so it doesn't get damaged as easily. |
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Bill wrote:
wrote: I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. Well, do it this Winter. 100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill don't lick it or rub up against the unfaced part of it. otherwise it's safe. |
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On Jul 22, 3:06*pm, (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
" writes: On Jul 22, 5:55=A0am, Bill wrote: =A0 My favorite technique, one I learned on the Internet, is to remove th= e conduit from the end of a romex cable by pulling the ground wire. =A0I mark the spot I want to remove it to, and I make sure I have at least an extra inch, because it's tricky to "stop on a dime". =A0It's my favorite technique because I have great confidence that my conductor wires won't get nicked (it's fast too)! =A0I have definitely learned something! =A0I'= m much less excited about learning to install insulation (fiberglass is evidently nasty stuff). Better yet, use an insulation cutter. *It's a wire-cutter looking thing with *dog-bone shaped cutter jaws that just slice the outer jacket of NM wire. *After the jacket is cut, simply pull on the end and it comes right off. *I think the cutter was $20 at the BORG. http://cgi.ebay.com/11-Gardner-Bende...00-Romex-slitt... Better: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/90E-Rome...r/EN/index.htm |
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On 7/22/2010 4:54 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote: I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. Well, do it this Winter. 100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Nobody who doesn't want to itch like mad should be around while you're putting it up and until you've cleaned up after, but once it's up and stapled it's fine. Just make sure the kids know not to touch it. It won't hurt them but fiberglass itch is very, very annoying. |
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:19:53 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bill wrote: wrote: I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. Well, do it this Winter. 100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill don't lick it or rub up against the unfaced part of it. Or snort it. otherwise it's safe. |
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" writes:
On Jul 22, 3:06=A0pm, (Scott Lurndal) wrote: " writes: On Jul 22, 5:55=3DA0am, Bill wrote: =3DA0 My favorite technique, one I learned on the Internet, is to remo= ve th=3D e conduit from the end of a romex cable by pulling the ground wire. =3DA= 0I mark the spot I want to remove it to, and I make sure I have at least = an extra inch, because it's tricky to "stop on a dime". =3DA0It's my favo= rite technique because I have great confidence that my conductor wires won'= t get nicked (it's fast too)! =3DA0I have definitely learned something! = =3DA0I'=3D m much less excited about learning to install insulation (fiberglass is evidently nasty stuff). Better yet, use an insulation cutter. =A0It's a wire-cutter looking thing with =A0dog-bone shaped cutter jaws that just slice the outer jacket of NM wire. =A0After the jacket is cut, simply pull on the end and it comes right off. =A0I think the cutter was $20 at the BORG. http://cgi.ebay.com/11-Gardner-Bende...00-Romex-slitt... Better: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/90E-Rome...r/EN/index.htm Hmm. Better, perhaps. More expensive, definitely, particularly since you need one for AWG 10-2 and a different one for AWG 12-2/AWG 14-4. The gardner ripper will work with 14-2, 12-2, 12-3, 10-2 and possibly 10-3, and it is quick, inexpensive and lightweight. scott |
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On 2010-07-22 16:54:28 -0400, Bill said:
Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill 1. Wear long sleeves and gloves while installing. Survey says: don't wash your work clothes with the rest of the laundry, and rinse out the washer after the load of fiberglass-contaminated work clothes. (Did not follow this last instuction myself, and nobody bitched. YMMV.) 2. Cut the runs to length with a utility knife. Clamp the batts between two boards -- kneeling on the top board with the bottom one resting on the floor works pretty well -- you can slash the fiberglass with a pass or two of the knife. I just made a rough mark on the floor the proper distance from a wall, plopped down my boards, and rolled the fiberglass out. If you're near the mark, it's close enough. 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) 3. It's stable. But you want to get to the drywall right away if only because it's the next stage in the process. Do point out item 1 above to the kids, and tell 'em they'll itch as bad as if they had poison ivy if they touch anything in the garage. Most of them will clear out and give you a wide berth, but there's always gonna be this one kid... 5. Coincidentally, according to a story on NPR today, global warming has lead to a bumper crop of poison ivy (and its first appearance in our yard this year -- I'm still waiting to break out), and the golden marmot population that has swelled to 3X the usual number. |
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On 7/22/10 11:22 PM, Steve wrote:
On 2010-07-22 16:54:28 -0400, Bill said: Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill 1. Wear long sleeves and gloves while installing. Survey says: don't wash your work clothes with the rest of the laundry, and rinse out the washer after the load of fiberglass-contaminated work clothes. (Did not follow this last instuction myself, and nobody bitched. YMMV.) 2. Cut the runs to length with a utility knife. Clamp the batts between two boards -- kneeling on the top board with the bottom one resting on the floor works pretty well -- you can slash the fiberglass with a pass or two of the knife. I just made a rough mark on the floor the proper distance from a wall, plopped down my boards, and rolled the fiberglass out. If you're near the mark, it's close enough. 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) 3. It's stable. But you want to get to the drywall right away if only because it's the next stage in the process. Do point out item 1 above to the kids, and tell 'em they'll itch as bad as if they had poison ivy if they touch anything in the garage. Most of them will clear out and give you a wide berth, but there's always gonna be this one kid... 5. Coincidentally, according to a story on NPR today, global warming has lead to a bumper crop of poison ivy (and its first appearance in our yard this year -- I'm still waiting to break out), and the golden marmot population that has swelled to 3X the usual number. Bahhhh, depends upon your sensitivity, last time I put some up, I was wearing long pants, but just a t-shirt, no gloves, mask etc., when the fiberglass was done, I put up the vapour barrier and tape. Took a shower and changed, no problems. Your mileage may vary, unless you are in California, then duck and cover. ;-) -- Froz... The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance. |
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:22:15 -0400, Steve wrote:
On 2010-07-22 16:54:28 -0400, Bill said: Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill 1. Wear long sleeves and gloves while installing. Survey says: don't wash your work clothes with the rest of the laundry, and rinse out the washer after the load of fiberglass-contaminated work clothes. (Did not follow this last instuction myself, and nobody bitched. YMMV.) Never bothered either. Just wash separately. Wear an extra shirt, one tucked, one not. Another reason to do it in the Winter. ;-) 2. Cut the runs to length with a utility knife. Clamp the batts between two boards -- kneeling on the top board with the bottom one resting on the floor works pretty well -- you can slash the fiberglass with a pass or two of the knife. I just made a rough mark on the floor the proper distance from a wall, plopped down my boards, and rolled the fiberglass out. If you're near the mark, it's close enough. Just use a framing square with the insulation pressed between it and a board. Use the "tail" of the framing square against the edge of the bat to make the cut square(ish). Slice the insulation with the knife running with the square edge. 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) It is flame retardant, not proof. It will not support combustion but it will burn. No worries, there is no reason to weld it up. ;-) 3. It's stable. But you want to get to the drywall right away if only because it's the next stage in the process. Do point out item 1 above to the kids, and tell 'em they'll itch as bad as if they had poison ivy if they touch anything in the garage. Most of them will clear out and give you a wide berth, but there's always gonna be this one kid... I wouldn't bother scaring them. It's not *that* bad. 5. Coincidentally, according to a story on NPR today, global warming has lead to a bumper crop of poison ivy (and its first appearance in our yard this year -- I'm still waiting to break out), and the golden marmot population that has swelled to 3X the usual number. Not allergic to poison *. SWMBO sure is! |
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Steve wrote in news:4c490ae7$0$4989
: *snip* 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) *snip* It also says it should be covered and the backing not left exposed. It's right on the backing, and still it gets left exposed. (I've got a piece in a utility room that was never covered. Gotta do that some time.) Puckdropper -- Never teach your apprentice everything you know. |
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On 7/23/2010 12:32 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in news:4c490ae7$0$4989 : *snip* 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) *snip* It also says it should be covered and the backing not left exposed. It's right on the backing, and still it gets left exposed. (I've got a piece in a utility room that was never covered. Gotta do that some time.) If you don't get something over it and leave the garage door open (IIRC this is a garage shop) pretty soon every bird in the neighborhood is going to have well-insulated nest and you aren't going to have any fiberglass. |
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:37:51 -0500, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
A number of years ago we had a house that the shop area :-) was paneled in drywall that was wood grain and plastic covered. It was nice to look at and repelled water. I've never have found it since. Wonder if it was a one time run or attempt to break in and failed. A lot of this precovered sheetrock is made for mobile home manufacture, I suppose it could be purchased through some of the mobile home service centers. As a side note, there are several mobile home builders in north Alabam and I have seen truckloads of OSB in single sheets that covered the entire trailer floor, looked to be about 1.25" thick. basilisk |
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Bill wrote:
I am considering insulating most of the two unattached walls with 3 1/2" batts (R-11 factor). The ceiling is not insulated over the shop area (and it is not practical to insulate it at this time). Would you advise me to insulate these two walls, as I've suggested above, or to proceed in a different way (higher R-factor)? Besides temperature, an additional benefit, I understand, is noise reduction for your neighbors. If you're going to heat it Bill, I would recommend as much insulation as you can get in. You can get R19 in 3 1/2" batts, so I'd use those instead of R11. If there is any way to insulate the ceiling, I'd certainly do that. Most of your heat loss is through the ceiling, not the walls. Good garage doors are a must also, if you're going to heat the space. -- -Mike- |
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Bill wrote:
wrote: I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. Well, do it this Winter. 100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? It's fine Bill. -- -Mike- |
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:30:12 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote the following: On 7/22/10 11:22 PM, Steve wrote: On 2010-07-22 16:54:28 -0400, Bill said: Do me and my family need to stay away from the (paper-backed) stuff between the time it's been stapled and the time the drywall has been put up? Basically, does the room become "off limits" and something to worry about, or is the freshly installed insulation stable? Bill 1. Wear long sleeves and gloves while installing. Survey says: don't wash your work clothes with the rest of the laundry, and rinse out the washer after the load of fiberglass-contaminated work clothes. (Did not follow this last instuction myself, and nobody bitched. YMMV.) 2. Cut the runs to length with a utility knife. Clamp the batts between two boards -- kneeling on the top board with the bottom one resting on the floor works pretty well -- you can slash the fiberglass with a pass or two of the knife. I just made a rough mark on the floor the proper distance from a wall, plopped down my boards, and rolled the fiberglass out. If you're near the mark, it's close enough. 3. Do not expose paper backing to open flame. (I only throw this is because it's printed on the darn stuff. Thought that should be obvious...) Also, do not pressure wash insulation above 3kpsi. (More ovbiousity?) 3. It's stable. But you want to get to the drywall right away if only because it's the next stage in the process. Do point out item 1 above to the kids, and tell 'em they'll itch as bad as if they had poison ivy if they touch anything in the garage. Most of them will clear out and give you a wide berth, but there's always gonna be this one kid... Pink is much less nasty than the scares. And that one kid deserves it. He's Darwin's Example. We _need_ these kids in society. 5. Coincidentally, according to a story on NPR today, global warming has lead to a bumper crop of poison ivy (and its first appearance in our yard this year -- I'm still waiting to break out), and the golden marmot population that has swelled to 3X the usual number. Anthropogenic Global Warming (kumbaya) is also responsible for getting Barry elected. It's just horrible stuff, y'know? I'll take AGWK over poison ivy/oak any day, though. Bahhhh, depends upon your sensitivity, last time I put some up, I was wearing long pants, but just a t-shirt, no gloves, mask etc., when the fiberglass was done, I put up the vapour barrier and tape. Took a shower and changed, no problems. Your mileage may vary, unless you are in California, then duck and cover. ;-) I had to remove a bunch of insulation to get at the back of a closet from under the client's house, and reinstall some drooped overhead insulation. I had on a short-sleeved t-shirt, a cartridge respirator, and it was 90F under there. Half an hour later, covered in sweat, I rinsed off my arms under the hose. The dust mites were worse than any insulation fiberglass. I didn't even notice it. But if I were to work with it all day, I'd want a tyvek suit with gloves/booties/hood. I worked in short sleeves insulating 3 walls in a 10x12 outbuilding without any trouble, too. It's not nearly as bad nowadays as it was 30 years ago. That stuff was nasty. Any more, I'll be using the "green" insulation. It's brown; much nicer than that cougar's pink crap, easier to use, and about the same price: fairly inxpensive. http://www.ecobatt.us/eco_batt.html -- Exercise ferments the humors, casts them into their proper channels, throws off redundancies, and helps nature in those secret distributions, without which the body cannot subsist in its vigor, nor the soul act with cheerfulness. -- Joseph Addison, The Spectator, July 12, 1711 |
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I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I
added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Bill |
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In article , Bill wrote:
I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) That'll work. 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. That'll work too. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. Because the resistance of the multimeter is so high that very little current will flow. Any arc that may result will be negligible. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? Yes, there is, due to exposed leads -- but if you're careful where you put your fingers, there really isn't anything to worry about. BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Go ahead and use the multimeter for that too. Just be careful where you put your fingers. |
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Bill wrote:
I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Go ahead and pull all of the wire to each outlet. If you're going to get an inspection, this would be the time to call the inspector for a rough in inspection. Once that's done, then wire in your outlets and turn them on. You can measure voltage if you want,. but you might just as well plug something in. If you are insistent upon testing, then simply strip back 3/4" of insulation on the white and the black, spread the wires so they stay apart from each other and put your meter across them. You should read 120v or 240v, depending upon the circuit. -- -Mike- |
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Doug Miller wrote:
In , wrote: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) That'll work. 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. That'll work too. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. Because the resistance of the multimeter is so high that very little current will flow. Any arc that may result will be negligible. Thank you, to you and Mike! I sort of guessed at the answer since it is consistent with why using the multi-meter doesn't result in a short circuit, but I was seeking your confirmation. A challenge I think lies in keeping the wires close enough to test with one hand and far enough apart that nothing can go "wrong". I will be very careful! : ) Bill |
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:51:48 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. That doesn't waste wire. Why would it?!? I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) Could work. This could work better: Run the romex, wire it into the breaker box, flip the circuit breaker and hold a clicker near the end. I bought this one this year and like it: http://fwd4.me/Ydx The adjustable sensitivity is invaluable. 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. Voltmeters have a megohm resistor inline with the leads to limit current. Just -don't- plug the leads into the -ammeter- sockets and try to test -voltage- with it. DAMHIKT sigh It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? Wear nitrile gloves if you use a voltmeter. Pinkies have been known to touch both leads at the same time on occasion, which is interesting without gloves, but with 'em, No Biggie. BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Look for 120v from bare ground to either of the phases and 240v between them. Again, no big deal. Household/shop wiring is very straightforward. -- It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth have both failed. -- Kin Hubbard |
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:51:48 -0400, Bill wrote:
I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. You can do the above, though it's probably wasted time. Another alternative is a non-contact tester. I keep one in my electrical tool box for this sort of thing. Note: ALWAYS test these things before using and don't trust them with your life. There should be little concern with arcing. Keep one hand in your back pocket. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? Wouldn't worry too much about it. BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Just watch for the "phantom voltage". You may get a voltage coupled to a floating wire. Your meter is probably high enough impedance that it'll look like some voltage between 0 and 120. It is a phantom. |
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On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:38:17 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: Bill wrote: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Go ahead and pull all of the wire to each outlet. If you're going to get an inspection, this would be the time to call the inspector for a rough in inspection. Once that's done, then wire in your outlets and turn them on. You can measure voltage if you want,. but you might just as well plug something in. If you are insistent upon testing, then simply strip back 3/4" of insulation on the white and the black, spread the wires so they stay apart from each other and put your meter across them. You should read 120v or 240v, depending upon the circuit. He can probe the ends of the wires, without stripping them, too. I still like the non-contact testers for this sort of thing. |
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Bill wrote in :
Thank you, to you and Mike! I sort of guessed at the answer since it is consistent with why using the multi-meter doesn't result in a short circuit, but I was seeking your confirmation. A challenge I think lies in keeping the wires close enough to test with one hand and far enough apart that nothing can go "wrong". I will be very careful! : ) Bill Some multimeters have an option to add aligator clips to at least one of their probes. With an insulated jacket, it'd be perfect to clip to the wires, energize, and check. Most multimeters use some form of banana plug to connect probes. They're usually easily swapped. The inductive power testers probably cost just as much as a set of aligator clip probes. Puckdropper -- Never teach your apprentice everything you know. |
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Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? BTW, I also have 220v wiring to test. I understand the state the potentials of the 3 pairs of the 3 wires should have, I just wish to proceed in a safe manner (without installing the outlet if possible). Go ahead and pull all of the wire to each outlet. I pulled the wire to each electrical box, but I can't see installing the outlets until after I have the drywall up. I just came home with 10 rolls of fiberglass insulation and a stapler, from Lowes. $90 for the formaldehyde-free R-13 insulation--I don't think it's going to get any better than that. A cool day would be welcome! : ) Bill |
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Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:51:48 -0400, wrote the following: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. That doesn't waste wire. Why would it?!? I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) Could work. This could work better: Run the romex, wire it into the breaker box, flip the circuit breaker and hold a clicker near the end. I bought this one this year and like it: http://fwd4.me/Ydx The adjustable sensitivity is invaluable. 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. Voltmeters have a megohm resistor inline with the leads to limit current. Just -don't- plug the leads into the -ammeter- sockets and try to test -voltage- with it. DAMHIKTsigh It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? Wear nitrile gloves if you use a voltmeter. Pinkies have been known to touch both leads at the same time on occasion, which is interesting without gloves, but with 'em, No Biggie. Thanks for the ideas. I'll going to go try it with the nitrile gloves (and insulated boots) now. Bill |
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Bill wrote:
Thanks for the ideas. I'll going to go try it with the nitrile glove (and insulated boots) now. Bill Each of my circuits passed a basic test or two with the multimeter. I've acquired some of that confidence that Doug Miller exhibits on occasion (but I still won't go into a live box). My wife was "freaking out", but I wanted her to be in the room, and her presence reminded me to be careful. The nitrile glove may give one a false sense of security--why not canvas glove (s)? As long as I've stripped the wires, I may as well attach a duplex outlet with my outlet checker in it for a more thorough test of the leading 120v's. In software development, they call what I am doing "unit testing"--and it pays good dividends. It is very difficult to get students to do it, which, in the big picture, is ridiculous. It makes just as much sense in my current circumstances which I think are completely analogous. Some positive reinforcement from the circuits is nice too! : ) Bill |
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On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:57:25 -0400, Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote: On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:51:48 -0400, wrote the following: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. That doesn't waste wire. Why would it?!? I was considering: 1) Taping the wires to my outlet tester with electrical tape and then flipping the circuit breaker on (in anticipation of a green light from the outlet tester) Could work. This could work better: Run the romex, wire it into the breaker box, flip the circuit breaker and hold a clicker near the end. I bought this one this year and like it: http://fwd4.me/Ydx The adjustable sensitivity is invaluable. 2) Holding the leads from my multi-meter to the ends of the wires. I MIGHT be brave enough to do this if it was explained to me why I don't have to be concerned about arc'ing. Voltmeters have a megohm resistor inline with the leads to limit current. Just -don't- plug the leads into the -ammeter- sockets and try to test -voltage- with it. DAMHIKTsigh It seems there is "more that could go wrong" in (2). What do you think? Wear nitrile gloves if you use a voltmeter. Pinkies have been known to touch both leads at the same time on occasion, which is interesting without gloves, but with 'em, No Biggie. Thanks for the ideas. I'll going to go try it with the nitrile gloves (and insulated boots) now. I don't think that's a very good idea. It'll only teach you to be sloppy. Nitrile gloves aren't safe, anyway. One hand in the back pocket is. |
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In article , Bill wrote:
I pulled the wire to each electrical box, but I can't see installing the outlets until after I have the drywall up. Not just "up" but painted too -- painting goes a *lot* faster when you can just run a roller right across an empty electrical box, instead of having to paint around an outlet. |
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On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:58:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote: Not just "up" but painted too -- painting goes a *lot* faster when you can just run a roller right across an empty electrical box, instead of having to paint around an outlet. What? You don't like paint marks on your electrical outlets? What's wrong with you? :) |
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In article , Upscale wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 08:58:55 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: Not just "up" but painted too -- painting goes a *lot* faster when you can just run a roller right across an empty electrical box, instead of having to paint around an outlet. What? You don't like paint marks on your electrical outlets? What's wrong with you? :) I'm just fussy that way. g |
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On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:56:24 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: Bill wrote: Thanks for the ideas. I'll going to go try it with the nitrile glove (and insulated boots) now. Bill Each of my circuits passed a basic test or two with the multimeter. I've acquired some of that confidence that Doug Miller exhibits on occasion (but I still won't go into a live box). I work on live circuits about 90% of the time, and replaced all 36 or so outlets in my house live. They were all ungrounded outlets, but the romex was grounded to the metal housing (ca 1967, no plastic boxes yet), so it worked out -without- me having to run a ground wire to each outlet. My wife was "freaking out", but I wanted her to be in the room, and her presence reminded me to be careful. The nitrile glove may give one a false sense of security--why not canvas glove (s)? Your wife was freaking out because you're so GHASTLY afraid of a little electricity, Bill. Strooth! Nitrile because I have them and they're thicker than my latex gloves. Do your hands sweat in the summer? Why give electricity any possible closed circuit, should your hand touch it? As I said, the wires go right through them and you can feel a tingle, but not a full-on shock. How is that a false sense of security? 'Course, I've been known to test for a live circuit by brushing my fingers over bare wiring. Butchagottabequick! I have a respect for electricity, not a fear. This, I strongly believe, is the best route for everyone. Aim for it, eh? As long as I've stripped the wires, I may as well attach a duplex outlet with my outlet checker in it for a more thorough test of the leading 120v's. Having stripped the wires and installed outlets, how are you going to leave it for the inspector? In software development, they call what I am doing "unit testing"--and it pays good dividends. It is very difficult to get students to do it, which, in the big picture, is ridiculous. What are you saying here? Which is ridiculous, the testing? Or trying to get students to do it? It makes just as much sense in my current circumstances which I think are completely analogous. Some positive reinforcement from the circuits is nice too! : ) It's a bit retentive, but if that gives you the warm fuzzies, who's to criticize? ;) -- It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth have both failed. -- Kin Hubbard |
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On Tue, 27 Jul 2010 04:45:55 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: wrote: On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 22:57:25 -0400, wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 23:51:48 -0400, wrote the following: I would like to test out the first outlet on each of the new circuits I added before I install insulation and drywall. I tested the first one by actually installing an outlet, but I see little point in wasting time/wire. That doesn't waste wire. Why would it?!? Because my book suggested I clip and restrip a wire once it's been "used". If you don't do this, then it doesn't "waste" any wire. Interesting. I've never seen that recommendation before. (Crikey, my old wiring book is from '79!) I have noticed "work-hardening" predictably occurring in my wire, so I A/R can be cured! have to believe the policy above is a reasonable one. Secondly, the wire probably incurred additional scratches from being used. Scratched? You spent at least an hour buffing out each wire, I hope. Surely, we can't have scratches in our copper. I trust that you're using Romes with oxygen-free copper, right? As usual, the best way to proceed probably just depends... I didn't write the book, I just read it. YMMV! : ) BTW, the book didn't say anything about "work-hardening". Work-hardening is usually only barely evident, and only on multiply-wiggled wire. Romex copper feels pre-hardened to me. ;) BTW2, one lesson I did learn is not to try to twist/connect used wire with other wire. A beautiful twist connection seems to require nice straight wire--not just pretty straight. My linesman pliers have wide jaws which straighten wire pretty well. I've never had a problem. Be certain, though, that you use the proper size wire nut for the size and number of wires going into them. I get retentive on rare occasion, too, and will run some black electrician's tape around the wires and nut before stuffing the thing back into the outlet box (or more often, the ceiling box.) So, if my intent was to twist the wire above, then it was wasted. My projects has taught me lots of lessons; a favorite has to be not to waste several hours trying to feed 6-3 romex cable through a 7/8" hole just because the cable appears to be only 3/4". Go to a 1" hole and have near-instant success. And if the cable has ever been bent, it can be larger still. That's where you find a spare spade bit and hit it with the grinder, allowing you to go back and use it to open up the smaller holes rather than wasting hours on it. (For next time, eh?) My wife is a quitter... I would have used the term "more intelligent", but whatever. ;) -- It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth have both failed. -- Kin Hubbard |
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Bill wrote:
In software development, they call what I am doing "unit testing"--and it pays good dividends. It is very difficult to get students to do it, which, in the big picture, is ridiculous. It makes just as much sense in my current circumstances which I think are completely analogous. Some positive reinforcement from the circuits is nice too! : ) I work for a software development company Bill, so I well understand unit testing. Since this is your first wiring attempt, it's understandable that you want to take very small steps. Be encouraged though, that what you are doing is common work done by lots of people every day, and you can justify taking comfort in taking bigger steps. I'd suggest you move ahead and wire in all of the outlets, energize the circuits, and use your tester to validate them after you energize them. That might make a more analogous unit test. The approach you are taking might be more analagous to testing every line of code as it's written. -- -Mike- |
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Bill wrote:
Because my book suggested I clip and restrip a wire once it's been "used". If you don't do this, then it doesn't "waste" any wire. I have noticed "work-hardening" predictably occurring in my wire, so I have to believe the policy above is a reasonable one. Secondly, the wire probably incurred additional scratches from being used. As usual, the best way to proceed probably just depends... I didn't write the book, I just read it. YMMV! : ) BTW, the book didn't say anything about "work-hardening". I wholey disagree with your book's suggestion to clip and restrip. That serves no purpose at all. Simply cap the exposed wire with a wire nut and tuck it in the box. Forget about "work-hardening". Your wire will work and rework many times before you have to worry about anything, and if you do have to worry about anything, it's a wire breaking off from multiple workings - but that's not something you'll encounter with a few workings. You're creating something that does not exist with this one Bill. BTW2, one lesson I did learn is not to try to twist/connect used wire with other wire. A beautiful twist connection seems to require nice straight wire--not just pretty straight. So, if my intent was to twist the wire above, then it was wasted. Practice makes perfect. Those of us who do a lot of wiring are always re-twisting wires, and/or twisting a new wiring into wires that had already been twisted. Very possible and no problem. My projects has taught me lots of lessons; a favorite has to be not to waste several hours trying to feed 6-3 romex cable through a 7/8" hole just because the cable appears to be only 3/4". Go to a 1" hole and have near-instant success. My wife is a quitter... Hey - I told you to use 1" holes... -- -Mike- |
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Bill wrote:
I pulled the wire to each electrical box, but I can't see installing the outlets until after I have the drywall up. I just came home with 10 rolls of fiberglass insulation and a stapler, from Lowes. $90 for the formaldehyde-free R-13 insulation--I don't think it's going to get any better than that. A cool day would be welcome! : ) It's fine to wait until you hang the rock before you install the outlets, or you can wire them in and tuck them end-wise into the box so that you can easily rock, with the outlet wired in. If you pigtail your connections inside the box (recommended), then you just cap and tuck the pigtail into the box, and wire it to the outlet after the rock is done. That way, you can run around with your voltmeter and test every pigtail before you close up the walls. -- -Mike- |
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"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
... Bill wrote: In software development, they call what I am doing "unit testing"--and it pays good dividends. It is very difficult to get students to do it, which, in the big picture, is ridiculous. It makes just as much sense in my current circumstances which I think are completely analogous. Some positive reinforcement from the circuits is nice too! : ) I work for a software development company Bill, so I well understand unit testing. Since this is your first wiring attempt, it's understandable that you want to take very small steps. Be encouraged though, that what you are doing is common work done by lots of people every day, and you can justify taking comfort in taking bigger steps. I'd suggest you move ahead and wire in all of the outlets, energize the circuits, and use your tester to validate them after you energize them. That might make a more analogous unit test. The approach you are taking might be more analagous to testing every line of code as it's written. Some advocate doing exactly that. But that's another story. |
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