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Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:38:11 -0400, Bill wrote the following: I've been thinking and reading about finishing my project. Having one of those "homemade stucco" finishes on the ceiling, made out of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Drywall is tapered at the edges to give you a smooth finish when 2 pieces are butted together. Either crush the edges of cut drywall (to give you that taper) or use fresh rock where possible. At $5 a sheet vs a whole lot of hassle, new rock is cheaper, IMHO. Grab a copy of this book. It has helped me improve my taping and mudding techniques immensely. http://fwd4.me/Wvp The tops and bottoms of rock are not tapered as the sides are. The advice to recess them is good advice, but the notion of the finished edge only applies to the long sides. -- -Mike- |
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On Jul 14, 4:16*pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:38:11 -0400, Bill wrote the following: I've been thinking and reading about finishing my project. Having one of those "homemade stucco" finishes on the ceiling, made out of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". *I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. *Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. *My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Drywall is tapered at the edges to give you a smooth finish when 2 pieces are butted together. Either crush the edges of cut drywall (to give you that taper) or use fresh rock where possible. *At $5 a sheet vs a whole lot of hassle, new rock is cheaper, IMHO. Grab a copy of this book. *It has helped me improve my taping and mudding techniques immensely. *http://fwd4.me/Wvp The tops and bottoms of rock are not tapered as the sides are. *The advice to recess them is good advice, but the notion of the finished edge only applies to the long sides. -- -Mike- Hence using the stuff horizontally whenever possible. |
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On Jul 14, 5:11*pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: Robatoy wrote: Hence using the stuff horizontally whenever possible. That does not eliminate the butt joint issue. *It only moves it. -- -Mike- But you get to use 12' sheets. |
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On Jul 14, 5:58*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jul 14, 5:11*pm, "Mike Marlow" wrote: Robatoy wrote: Hence using the stuff horizontally whenever possible. That does not eliminate the butt joint issue. *It only moves it. -- -Mike- But you get to use 12' sheets. Or 16'...and the odd 20' |
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On 7/14/2010 2:29 PM, Bill wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: In , "Mike wrote: I'd leave it as it is Bill. You can finish the butt joints in the normal way, and you don't have to worry about affecting the finish at or near the textured ceiling. A less than perfect butt joint that is 4" from the ceiling isn't going to be all that visible. Besides which, it's in the garage, not the living room. :-) (Definition) Garage: 1. a building or indoor area for parking or storing motor vehicles. 2. a commercial establishment for repairing and servicing motor vehicles. I don't have one of those! : ) 3. A large room in a house with a door 8 or more feet wide. |
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You never did! STUCCO CEILINGS! ROFL!!!
"Bill" wrote in message ... (Definition) Garage: 1. a building or indoor area for parking or storing motor vehicles. 2. a commercial establishment for repairing and servicing motor vehicles. I don't have one of those! : ) Bill Doug Miller wrote: In , "Mike wrote: I'd leave it as it is Bill. You can finish the butt joints in the normal way, and you don't have to worry about affecting the finish at or near the textured ceiling. A less than perfect butt joint that is 4" from the ceiling isn't going to be all that visible. Besides which, it's in the garage, not the living room. :-) |
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When I had my ceilings done I hired a pro drywaller. This guy lifted up 5/8"
x 4' x 12' sheets, on a scaffold (10' ceilings) and held them there, while another started driving drywall screws. I only do small drywall repairs now after seeing that display. "Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... Oh yeah - they are fun to move around, aren't they? Sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse... -- -Mike- Robatoy wrote: But you get to use 12' sheets. |
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On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:55:35 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote: On 7/14/2010 2:29 PM, Bill wrote: Doug Miller wrote: In , "Mike wrote: I'd leave it as it is Bill. You can finish the butt joints in the normal way, and you don't have to worry about affecting the finish at or near the textured ceiling. A less than perfect butt joint that is 4" from the ceiling isn't going to be all that visible. Besides which, it's in the garage, not the living room. :-) (Definition) Garage: 1. a building or indoor area for parking or storing motor vehicles. 2. a commercial establishment for repairing and servicing motor vehicles. I don't have one of those! : ) 3. A large room in a house with a door 8 or more feet wide. 4. the indoor area for storing tools, to keep them out of the rain. |
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On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill said:
of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the top of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling -- you'll not have to repeat. Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of the joint. |
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Steve wrote:
On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill said: of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the top of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling -- you'll not have to repeat. Yeah, I was thinking I didn't want to have to do that. Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of the joint. Glad to hear that. I already bought some paper tape, so I'm glad to hear it's a good choice. As my drywall cutting is a bit irregular, I'm sure I'll be making good use of the tape! BTW, my Harbor Freight Rotary tool gave up the ghost today. It stopped and started smoking. But I have to give the tool more credit than I was going to when I first started with it--it and it's little cutting attachments (that you have to buy separately) cut almost 100' of 1/2" drywall. That was all I ever used the tool for and I'm going to replace it (currently on sale for $17.99). BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according to the circular that arrived in the mail today. Bill |
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On Jul 14, 10:37*pm, Bill wrote:
Steve wrote: On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill said: of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the top of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling -- you'll not have to repeat. * *Yeah, I was thinking I didn't want to have to do that. Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of the joint. Glad to hear that. *I already bought some paper tape, so I'm glad to hear it's a good choice. *As my drywall cutting is a bit irregular, I'm sure I'll be making good use of the tape! BTW, my Harbor Freight Rotary tool gave up the ghost today. *It stopped and started smoking. But I have to give the tool more credit than I was going to when I first started with it--it and it's little cutting attachments (that you have to buy separately) cut almost 100' of 1/2" drywall. That was all I ever used the tool for and I'm going to replace it (currently on sale for $17.99). Huh? You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? Score, break, and cut the paper. RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in drywall but make a hell of a mess! A multi-tool would be a better choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe recently, without causing more problems than it solved). BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according to the circular that arrived in the mail today. Most of those sets aren't worth the aggravation. |
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In article , " wrote:
Huh? You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? Score, break, and cut the paper. RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in drywall but make a hell of a mess! A multi-tool would be a better choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe recently, without causing more problems than it solved). I think you misunderstand, Keith. He's cutting drywall that's already on the wall, so that he can remove it. |
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On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:37:23 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: Steve wrote: On 2010-07-14 03:38:11 -0400, Bill said: of joint compound, I left about 4 inches of drywall at the top of one wall and about 18 inches at the top of another when I removed it. This leaves me facing almost wall-length "butt joints". I presume that with some patience (layering) and appropriate drywall compounds I can make it look decent. Please tell me if you would suggest approaching it any differently, in particular, by removing the wallboard to the ceiling. My intuition tells me to stick with my original plan (the butt joints), but I think this is a good time to ask. Having just done this project, I'd suggest leaving the strips at the top of the wall That's one corner taping job -- wall-to-ceiling -- you'll not have to repeat. Yeah, I was thinking I didn't want to have to do that. Also, don't use the mesh tape on the horizontal wall joints. Paper tape is a bit more reisistant to display hairline cracks down the center of the joint. Glad to hear that. I already bought some paper tape, so I'm glad to hear it's a good choice. As my drywall cutting is a bit irregular, I'm sure I'll be making good use of the tape! BTW, my Harbor Freight Rotary tool gave up the ghost today. It stopped and started smoking. But I have to give the tool more credit than I was going to when I first started with it--it and it's little cutting attachments (that you have to buy separately) cut almost 100' of 1/2" drywall. That was all I ever used the tool for and I'm going to replace it (currently on sale for $17.99). Mine cut out a 3x3' square in under a minute with the semicircular saw blade on it. Yours burned up in about ten minutes? Were you pushing it? I let mine cut at its own speed (just like a handsaw) and each works much better that way. That sounds like an awfully short lifetime, though. I noted a whole lot of very fine dust (though not nearly as much as a zip tool or drywall dagger) when I used mine on drywall. Given a choice, I'd set up a fan or shop vac/DC suction to remove most of it from the area while cutting. It would protect both the tool and me, though I wear respirators with either organic vapor or hepa dust filter cannisters on them when I do dusty work. (I look like a Martian out mowing the lawn with muffs and respirator on, too, but I prefer not getting all sniffly for several days due to allergies.) BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according to the circular that arrived in the mail today. Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. -- EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight, which somehow eases those pains and indignities following our every deficiency in foresight. |
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On Jul 15, 8:27*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , " wrote: Huh? *You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? *Score, break, and cut the paper. *RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in drywall but make a hell of a mess! *A multi-tool would be a better choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe recently, without causing more problems than it solved). I think you misunderstand, Keith. He's cutting drywall that's already on the wall, so that he can remove it. Oh, I misunderstood. That's even worse! Dust city! cough, sputter, wheeze Just pull the nails, slice the tape with a knife, and take it down in pieces as large as possible. Then score, break, cut as normal to get it into easily manageable pieces. ....unless he's planning on reusing it. ;-) |
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Just cut, yank pieces of drywall off, and then clean the screws up afterward
once you can see where they are. Nails may pull out but screws won't. wrote in message ... On Jul 15, 8:27 am, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , " wrote: Huh? You're cutting drywall (100') with the rotary tool? Score, break, and cut the paper. RotoZips are nice for cutting holes in drywall but make a hell of a mess! A multi-tool would be a better choice for most cuts (My RotoZip was useful in exposing a leaking pipe recently, without causing more problems than it solved). I think you misunderstand, Keith. He's cutting drywall that's already on the wall, so that he can remove it. Oh, I misunderstood. That's even worse! Dust city! cough, sputter, wheeze Just pull the nails, slice the tape with a knife, and take it down in pieces as large as possible. Then score, break, cut as normal to get it into easily manageable pieces. ....unless he's planning on reusing it. ;-) |
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On Jul 15, 1:13*pm, "Josepi" wrote:
Just cut, yank pieces of drywall off, and then clean the screws up afterward once you can see where they are. Nails may pull out but screws won't. Screws are even easier. Hint: there is a switch on your cordless drill. The idea is to create as little mess as possible. Ripping down sheetrock is easy. Cleaning up, not so much. Invest a little bit more up-front and it makes the back end of the job *much* easier. Bottom, or inline, posting makes things a lot easier, too. |
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Larry Jaques wrote:
Mine cut out a 3x3' square in under a minute with the semicircular saw blade on it. Yours burned up in about ten minutes? Were you pushing it? I let mine cut at its own speed (just like a handsaw) and each works much better that way. That sounds like an awfully short lifetime, though. I noted a whole lot of very fine dust (though not nearly as much as a zip tool or drywall dagger) when I used mine on drywall. Given a choice, I'd set up a fan or shop vac/DC suction to remove most of it from the area while cutting. It would protect both the tool and me, though I wear respirators with either organic vapor or hepa dust filter cannisters on them when I do dusty work. (I look like a Martian out mowing the lawn with muffs and respirator on, too, but I prefer not getting all sniffly for several days due to allergies.) Yeah, I do the martian thing too. BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according to the circular that arrived in the mail today. Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I think that the set I mentioned about has about 6 #2 phillips, and 2 pairs of flatheads. I used a bit (not one of these) to screw in 36 2.5" wood screws yesterday in what seemed like 20 minutes. How do you put a price on that! I seriously doubt I could have done it in a day by hand. Only being a home-owner for 1 year, I'm new to using (power) tools like this--but I'm impressed. I'd say the bit I mentioned above did at least $75 worth of work already and saved me certain blisters. Bill |
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On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 07:34:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:37:23 -0400, Bill wrote the following: snip BTW, the Stanley 62-piece screw-bit set I mentioned a few days ago is on sale for 5.49 (instead of 12.99) at Menards this Fri/Sat/Sun according to the circular that arrived in the mail today. Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I have a few sets, too. I think they're all complete because I don't use them. I have a box with a few copies of first quality common bits (#1, #2, and #3 Phillips, #1 and #2 Square, and T15, T20, and T25) that I keep with my 12V Bosch drill and Impactor. |
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Harbor Freight provided me with a new Rotary Tool today and I bought some of their 1.5" cutting bits (the ones I had used previously were 1", but were not sold separately). They still fit the 1/8" collar. I cut about 7 or 8 inches of drywall and "flash/smoke & stop", just like the first one. This unit didn't even get hot first, and didn't do a lick of work before it died. The smell of plastic preceded each death. If this had happened with the first unit I would have given up on the tool completely, but the first one did a respectable amount of work before it conked out. I finished trimming the existing drywall with a box knife, and did just fine. I still think the rotary tool may be nice to have for making the cutouts for the electrical boxes...if they have another one which works. Bill |
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On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:52:39 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: Harbor Freight provided me with a new Rotary Tool today and I bought some of their 1.5" cutting bits (the ones I had used previously were 1", but were not sold separately). They still fit the 1/8" collar. I cut about 7 or 8 inches of drywall and "flash/smoke & stop", just like the first one. This unit didn't even get hot first, and didn't do a lick of work before it died. The smell of plastic preceded each death. Are you allowing the blade to cut at its own rate, or are you hoggin' down on it to rush the cut? Are you using the circular blade? It doesn't sound like it. That's the safe one which won't eat romex cables which might be against the drywall. If this had happened with the first unit I would have given up on the tool completely, but the first one did a respectable amount of work before it conked out. I finished trimming the existing drywall with a box knife, and did just fine. I still think the rotary tool may be nice to have for making the cutouts for the electrical boxes...if they have another one which works. I always run new tools for a few minutes without -any- load so the brushes can break in and seat properly. I lost a brand new cutoff saw from rushing things and don't want to do it again. -- EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight, which somehow eases those pains and indignities following our every deficiency in foresight. |
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On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:39:23 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: Larry Jaques wrote: Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I think that the set I mentioned about has about 6 #2 phillips, and 2 pairs of flatheads. I used a bit (not one of these) to screw in 36 2.5" wood screws yesterday in what seemed like 20 minutes. How do you put a price on that! I seriously doubt I could have done it in a day by hand. Only being a home-owner for 1 year, I'm new to using (power) tools like this--but I'm impressed. I'd say the bit I mentioned above did at least $75 worth of work already and saved me certain blisters. Huh? We were talking screwdriver bit sets and now you're talking about some unspecified power tool. Wut up wi dat, homey? -- EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight, which somehow eases those pains and indignities following our every deficiency in foresight. |
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Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:39:23 -0400, wrote the following: Larry Jaques wrote: Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I think that the set I mentioned about has about 6 #2 phillips, and 2 pairs of flatheads. I used a bit (not one of these) to screw in 36 2.5" wood screws yesterday in what seemed like 20 minutes. How do you put a price on that! I seriously doubt I could have done it in a day by hand. Only being a home-owner for 1 year, I'm new to using (power) tools like this--but I'm impressed. I'd say the bit I mentioned above did at least $75 worth of work already and saved me certain blisters. Huh? We were talking screwdriver bit sets and now you're talking about some unspecified power tool. Wut up wi dat, homey? My point was that screwdriver bits are cheap even if you pay $3/bit, if you use them. The unspecified power tool here was just a bit driver. Can't one go from bit to bit driver here without raising a ruckus? Bill |
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Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:52:39 -0400, wrote the following: Harbor Freight provided me with a new Rotary Tool today and I bought some of their 1.5" cutting bits (the ones I had used previously were 1", but were not sold separately). They still fit the 1/8" collar. I cut about 7 or 8 inches of drywall and "flash/smoke& stop", just like the first one. This unit didn't even get hot first, and didn't do a lick of work before it died. The smell of plastic preceded each death. Are you allowing the blade to cut at its own rate, or are you hoggin' down on it to rush the cut? Are you using the circular blade? It doesn't sound like it. That's the safe one which won't eat romex cables which might be against the drywall. I was using what is called a "cut-off wheel" (1.5") on the package. I was trying to let it cut at it's own rate. The 1" version that I got as part of a set, seemed to work better (with the first unit). As I mentioned, I had barely been using the second unit for 5 minutes before it burned up. Perhaps when it started slipping I should have taken that as a warning. I always run new tools for a few minutes without -any- load so the brushes can break in and seat properly. I lost a brand new cutoff saw from rushing things and don't want to do it again. I didn't know about this (confirmation anyone?), and I don't want to do it again either! : ) I am almost afraid to take the one they gave me today out of the package. I won't need it until I do my drywall cut-outs anyway. If it fails, I'm going to try the B&D version (RTX-B), which seems to get higher ratings. ~ $25 at WMT. Bill |
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Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote: On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:39:23 -0400, wrote the following: Larry Jaques wrote: Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I think that the set I mentioned about has about 6 #2 phillips, and 2 pairs of flatheads. I used a bit (not one of these) to screw in 36 2.5" wood screws yesterday in what seemed like 20 minutes. How do you put a price on that! I seriously doubt I could have done it in a day by hand. Only being a home-owner for 1 year, I'm new to using (power) tools like this--but I'm impressed. I'd say the bit I mentioned above did at least $75 worth of work already and saved me certain blisters. Huh? We were talking screwdriver bit sets and now you're talking about some unspecified power tool. Wut up wi dat, homey? My point was that screwdriver bits are cheap even if you pay $3/bit, if you use them. The unspecified power tool here was just a bit driver. Can't one go from bit to bit driver here without raising a ruckus? BTW, that was a joke! : ) Bill |
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 01:06:09 -0400, Bill wrote the
following: Larry Jaques wrote: On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:39:23 -0400, wrote the following: Larry Jaques wrote: Having purchased a few large assortment bit sets, it appears that about 95% of the contents have gone entirely unused. But now that I own one, I can replace most-used bits (like #2 square and #2 phillips) in bulk more cheaply. The sets are usually not a good deal unless they give you more of your most-used tips at a price less than you can find them for individually. Your call. I think that the set I mentioned about has about 6 #2 phillips, and 2 pairs of flatheads. I used a bit (not one of these) to screw in 36 2.5" wood screws yesterday in what seemed like 20 minutes. How do you put a price on that! I seriously doubt I could have done it in a day by hand. Only being a home-owner for 1 year, I'm new to using (power) tools like this--but I'm impressed. I'd say the bit I mentioned above did at least $75 worth of work already and saved me certain blisters. Huh? We were talking screwdriver bit sets and now you're talking about some unspecified power tool. Wut up wi dat, homey? My point was that screwdriver bits are cheap even if you pay $3/bit, if you use them. The unspecified power tool here was just a bit driver. Can't one go from bit to bit driver here without raising a ruckus? When switching from apples to oranges, the citric acid in the orange ensures a sourness not previously tasted, kind sir. -- EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight, which somehow eases those pains and indignities following our every deficiency in foresight. |
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What would happen if you turn on the circuit breaker feeding a subpanel
before you intall any circuit breakers in the subpanel? It seems like nothing should happen. Is this correct? Bill |
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Bill wrote in :
What would happen if you turn on the circuit breaker feeding a subpanel before you intall any circuit breakers in the subpanel? It seems like nothing should happen. Is this correct? Bill Why? Did something happen? With no return path, no circuit exists. The only thing that would happen is the power may have a chance to find a return path, find none, and nothing else happens. You're testing prematurely, no useful information will be gained by turning power on this early. Puckdropper -- Never teach your apprentice everything you know. |
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"Bill" wrote in message
... What would happen if you turn on the circuit breaker feeding a subpanel before you intall any circuit breakers in the subpanel? It seems like nothing should happen. Is this correct? Bill As long as you keep your fingers out of it ... |
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Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in : What would happen if you turn on the circuit breaker feeding a subpanel before you intall any circuit breakers in the subpanel? It seems like nothing should happen. Is this correct? Bill Why? Did something happen? The CB blew. Since I last wrote I noted a small dot of residue on the front of the clamp, right in the middle, and some minor residue below on the wires. I had understood that this clamp (1"), onto the 6-3 romex cable, isn't supposed to be too tight--and I just checked it again, by my standards its not tight at all. Tight enough to hold the cable surely, but I did not bear down on it by any means. One thing I did not do is consider the rotational-orientation of the cable before I tightened the clamp. Doing it over again, I would put a flat side of the essentially triangularly cross-sectioned cable in the front (you'll only appreciate the difference if you are familiar with the clamp). I was busy focusing on the vertical orientation of the cable. I'll probably learn more after I remove the clamp. Question: I may or may not have left enough loose cable to pull enough into the sub-panel to rewire it. I think it depends on which wire (s) are damaged. If the bare ground wire damaged my shortest hot wire (and this is my best guess at this point), then I may be okay. If not, assuming just minor damage to the insulation on a conductor wire under the clamp, is a repair possible? Bill With no return path, no circuit exists. The only thing that would happen is the power may have a chance to find a return path, find none, and nothing else happens. You're testing prematurely, no useful information will be gained by turning power on this early. I'm not sure I agree. ; ) Puckdropper |
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Bill wrote:
The CB blew. Question: I may or may not have left enough loose cable to pull enough into the sub-panel to rewire it. I think it depends on which wire (s) are damaged. If the bare ground wire damaged my shortest hot wire (and this is my best guess at this point), then I may be okay. If not, assuming just minor damage to the insulation on a conductor wire under the clamp, is a repair possible? I'd be surprised if the clamp damaged the wires. You did leave the outer sheathing on the romex through the clamp, and only skinned it back after you were inside the sub-panel, correct? If you have nicked a wire, then you could repair it with electrical tape. I don't like to repair insulation if I can avoid it at all. Why do you think the ground contacted the shortest hot lead? That seems to imply you might think you had nicked the insultaion on that lead. If that's the case, you never should have tried to power that feed up. If I'm misunderstanding you, then try to re-state it. -- -Mike- |
Shop Wall and Electric
In article , Bill wrote:
Puckdropper wrote: wrote in : What would happen if you turn on the circuit breaker feeding a subpanel before you intall any circuit breakers in the subpanel? It seems like nothing should happen. Is this correct? Correct. Why? Did something happen? The CB blew. (A point of terminology: fuses blow, circuit breakers trip.) That means there's a connection someplace where there shouldn't be one. That connection could be any one or more of the following: black to bare, black to white, red to bare, red to white, or black to red. Using a volt-ohm meter, and with the breaker OFF, make the following tests in your subpanel: a) Measure resistance between one hot lug and the grounding bar. There should be no connection (infinite resistance). b) Measure resistance between that hot lug and the neutral bar. Again, there should be no connection. c) Repeat a) and b) for the other hot lug. d) Disconnect both incoming hot wires from their lugs and repeat the previous four tests. e) If the results differ in any way from the first four tests, measure the resistance between the (now-disconnected) red and black wires at the subpanel end of the cable. There should be no connection. If there is a connection, the cable is damaged; STOP HERE. f) If the results of the second set of tests are the same as the results of the first set, continue. g) Measure resistance between the black and the bare conductors in the cable. h) Repeat for black and white. i) Repeat for red and bare. j) Repeat for red and white. If you see anything other than infinite resistance in any of those tests, disconnect IN THE SUBPANEL ONLY whichever wires were involved and repeat the test. If the results change, at least one of those wires was connected incorrectly at at least one end, probably the subpanel end. If the results are unchanged, most likely the cable is damaged. Disconnect the other ends of the wires involved (in the main panel) and repeat the test. If the results are unchanged, definitely the cable is damaged. Since I last wrote I noted a small dot of residue on the front of the clamp, right in the middle, and some minor residue below on the wires. What kind of "residue", Bill? Can you post a clear closeup photo? I had understood that this clamp (1"), onto the 6-3 romex cable, isn't supposed to be too tight--and I just checked it again, by my standards its not tight at all. Tight enough to hold the cable surely, but I did not bear down on it by any means. One thing I did not do is consider the rotational-orientation of the cable before I tightened the clamp. Doing it over again, I would put a flat side of the essentially triangularly cross-sectioned cable in the front (you'll only appreciate the difference if you are familiar with the clamp). I was busy focusing on the vertical orientation of the cable. I'll probably learn more after I remove the clamp. Question: I may or may not have left enough loose cable to pull enough into the sub-panel to rewire it. I think it depends on which wire (s) are damaged. If the bare ground wire damaged my shortest hot wire (and this is my best guess at this point), then I may be okay. If not, assuming just minor damage to the insulation on a conductor wire under the clamp, is a repair possible? If conductor insulation is damaged inside the cable sheath, the only "repair" possible is removal of the damaged section. If you don't have enough cable left to do that, then you'll need to buy more cable. |
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Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote: The CB blew. Question: I may or may not have left enough loose cable to pull enough into the sub-panel to rewire it. I think it depends on which wire (s) are damaged. If the bare ground wire damaged my shortest hot wire (and this is my best guess at this point), then I may be okay. If not, assuming just minor damage to the insulation on a conductor wire under the clamp, is a repair possible? I'd be surprised if the clamp damaged the wires. You did leave the outer sheathing on the romex through the clamp, and only skinned it back after you were inside the sub-panel, correct? yes If you have nicked a wire, then you could repair it with electrical tape. I don't like to repair insulation if I can avoid it at all. Why do you think the ground contacted the shortest hot lead? Just inspecting it, it appears that the ground wire had the best chance to cause damage to the insulation (of another wire). It is true that I adjusted the cable for vertical alignment while I was installing it (basically clamping it twice). The slight residue indicated this is the "hot spot". That seems to imply you might think you had nicked the insultaion on that lead. If that's the case, you never should have tried to power that feed up. If I'm misunderstanding you, then try to re-state it. I had no reason to believe I nicked the insulation. I will provide more info after I remove the clamp. Thanks! Bill |
Shop Wall and Electric
Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote: Bill wrote: The CB blew. Question: I may or may not have left enough loose cable to pull enough into the sub-panel to rewire it. I think it depends on which wire (s) are damaged. If the bare ground wire damaged my shortest hot wire (and this is my best guess at this point), then I may be okay. If not, assuming just minor damage to the insulation on a conductor wire under the clamp, is a repair possible? I'd be surprised if the clamp damaged the wires. Well, it may have been the man who installed the clamp, but, speaking for myself, I'd like to blame the clamp. The pictures of the actual damage to the wire didn't come out great, but I put those I have on my web site. To help you visit faster, the stuff we are talking about here starts at two pictures of the clamp (model), about 1/3 of the way down. http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/ BTW, I also posted a new bird picture in case anyone might want to visit just to look at that. Bill |
Shop Wall and Electric
Many of you are well-familiar with my configuration. I live in mid-Indiana and have attached brick garage/shop. It's currently not served by AC or Heat, but I can easily imagine a small shop heater in the future. I am considering insulating most of the two unattached walls with 3 1/2" batts (R-11 factor). The ceiling is not insulated over the shop area (and it is not practical to insulate it at this time). Would you advise me to insulate these two walls, as I've suggested above, or to proceed in a different way (higher R-factor)? Besides temperature, an additional benefit, I understand, is noise reduction for your neighbors. BTW (for those that have been following this thread), I'm in the process of learning to do decent wiring. I haven't wasted/ruined any (significant amount) yet, but I'm glad I bought more wire than I thought I needed. I'm making good use of every wire-related tool I bought. Strangely, it seems that every time I determine just the place I need to measure, mark or cut cable, the tool I need is a few feet from my reach. My favorite technique, one I learned on the Internet, is to remove the conduit from the end of a romex cable by pulling the ground wire. I mark the spot I want to remove it to, and I make sure I have at least an extra inch, because it's tricky to "stop on a dime". It's my favorite technique because I have great confidence that my conductor wires won't get nicked (it's fast too)! I have definitely learned something! I'm much less excited about learning to install insulation (fiberglass is evidently nasty stuff). The drywall part should be interesting. I've never cut and fit drywall before but I've worked with drywall compound (30 years ago), and so I have some idea what I'm up against. I am looking forward to seeing how well I can tape and feather the joints. I'll find out whether I should be permitted to work on the interior of the house or not. I hope so as I have identified some work I'd like to re-do. Best, Bill |
Shop Wall and Electric
On Jul 22, 5:55*am, Bill wrote:
Many of you are well-familiar with my configuration. *I live in mid-Indiana and have attached brick garage/shop. It's currently not served by AC or Heat, but I can easily imagine a small shop heater in the future. I am considering insulating most of the two unattached walls with 3 1/2" batts (R-11 factor). *The ceiling is not insulated over the shop area (and it is not practical to insulate it at this time). Would you advise me to insulate these two walls, as I've suggested above, or to proceed in a different way (higher R-factor)? * Besides temperature, an additional benefit, I understand, is noise reduction for your neighbors. BTW (for those that have been following this thread), I'm in the process of learning to do decent wiring. *I haven't wasted/ruined any (significant amount) yet, but I'm glad I bought more wire than I thought I needed. *I'm making good use of every wire-related tool I bought. Strangely, it seems that every time I determine just the place I need to measure, mark or cut cable, the tool I need is a few feet from my reach. Electricians use belts with tools always in the same place. No wasted motions. Me? I constantly chase tools, like you. ;-) * My favorite technique, one I learned on the Internet, is to remove the conduit from the end of a romex cable by pulling the ground wire. *I mark the spot I want to remove it to, and I make sure I have at least an extra inch, because it's tricky to "stop on a dime". *It's my favorite technique because I have great confidence that my conductor wires won't get nicked (it's fast too)! *I have definitely learned something! *I'm much less excited about learning to install insulation (fiberglass is evidently nasty stuff). Better yet, use an insulation cutter. It's a wire-cutter looking thing with dog-bone shaped cutter jaws that just slice the outer jacket of NM wire. After the jacket is cut, simply pull on the end and it comes right off. I think the cutter was $20 at the BORG. The drywall part should be interesting. I've never cut and fit drywall before but I've worked with drywall compound (30 years ago), and so I have some idea what I'm up against. I am looking forward to seeing how well I can tape and feather the joints. *I'll find out whether I should be permitted to work on the interior of the house or not. I hope so as I have identified some work I'd like to re-do. Tapered joints are easy, though doing a whole garage at once is not. Butt joints are a PITA, at least for me. A garage at a time makes it more difficult, but I tend to like the mix-it-yourself mud because it's not water soluble after it sets. The premixed tends to soften when you apply the next layer, leading to circular sessions of mud- sand-mud-sand-mud.... OTOH, the premix stuff is water soluble, so can be smoothed some with a wet sponge. I'm sure you already know this, but if you're *ever* going to insulate the garage, do it *now*. Well, do it this Winter. 100F, fiberglass, and skin don't mix well. |
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