On 01/06/2010 05:00 PM, CW wrote:

Not going to change anybody's mind. According to the envirowakos, the cold
weather you are seeing is due to global warming. I still haven't figured out
how to make ice cubes in my oven but, according to them, it is possible.
Guess I'm just not doing it right.

It's possible to use heat energy to move heat from one place to another.
For several years I used a refrigerator that ran on a kerosene flame.

Chris

On 1/7/2010 12:32 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:18:13 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying
a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except
for the hills), and so on.

I can assure you that surveyors do take into account the curvature or the
Earth because the distance between lines of longitude varies with the
distance from the equator. I did surveying software back in the '70s and
know whereof I speak :-).



If you live in the mid west you will find many slight jogs in the back
roads where they cross township lines. These jogs will only be a couple
of dozen feet. I have been told they were caused by the surveyors
adjustment for he decreasing length of the longitude.

These slight jogs can be seen in most states in the mid west. They are
easily found in those area that are flat like the area east of Fort
Wayne Indiana. Use Google earth and trace the back roads north, you
will see many of the jogs. (The main roads once also had these jogs, but
years of improvements have removed them.

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 1/7/2010 12:32 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:18:13 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying
a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except
for the hills), and so on.

I can assure you that surveyors do take into account the curvature or the
Earth because the distance between lines of longitude varies with the
distance from the equator. I did surveying software back in the '70s and
know whereof I speak :-).



If you live in the mid west you will find many slight jogs in the back
roads where they cross township lines. These jogs will only be a couple
of dozen feet. I have been told they were caused by the surveyors
adjustment for he decreasing length of the longitude.

These slight jogs can be seen in most states in the mid west. They are
easily found in those area that are flat like the area east of Fort
Wayne Indiana. Use Google earth and trace the back roads north, you
will see many of the jogs. (The main roads once also had these jogs, but
years of improvements have removed them.

Indeedy, doo...

Generally out here they apparently "saved up" over larger distances so
most correction-line adjustments are quite a bit larger than 20-30 ft;
more like 1/8-th or 16-th of a mile. I'd actually guess they were
actually in a fixed number of chains or rods; I'd have to research what
the standard measure was when this area (far SW KS) was surveyed.

And, on (B), they may have smoothed out or rounded off the square
section-line corners, but even the US highways still have easily
discernible correction-line jogs to this day (and likely will for quite
a long time to come).

--

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:17:49 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

The notion that the church wouldn't allow science is something that
was made up in the 1800s. Modern historians have discovered that
this was not the case. In fact some of the key ideas of modern
science came from medieval monks.

"But it *does* move!" Quote from a somewhat famous heresy trial.

Actually that's what he was purported to have said on his deathbed.

That particular trial, however, occurred after the Renaissance, which marked
the end of the Middle Ages, so it's difficult to use that particular trial
to support an assertion about suppression of science in the Middle Ages.

In any case, Galileo was tried mainly because he went out of his way to ****
off the Church--he may not have intended to but he managed it anyway--today
he'd have fit in just fine in the community of annoying netloons who even if
they are right get ignored because the alienate everybody who comes in
contact with them. If he'd listened to advice and followed the rules, one
of which is that if you want to say something contrary to doctrine you
present it as an idea to be discussed, not as an absolute truth, and let the
heirarchy beat on it at their leisure, then he'd have been in no trouble at
all, but he didn't do that. It didn't help that when he finally did add a
disclaimer to that effect he did it in a manner which could be regarded as a
sarcastic stab at the Pope, and that's exactly how the Pope interpreted it.

In any case, Galileo was tried mainly because he went out of his way to
****
off the Church--he may not have intended to but he managed it
anyway--today
he'd have fit in just fine in the community of annoying netloons who even
if
they are right get ignored because the alienate everybody who comes in
contact with them. If he'd listened to advice and followed the rules, one
of which is that if you want to say something contrary to doctrine you
present it as an idea to be discussed, not as an absolute truth, and let
the
heirarchy beat on it at their leisure, then he'd have been in no trouble
at
all, but he didn't do that. It didn't help that when he finally did add a
disclaimer to that effect he did it in a manner which could be regarded as
a
sarcastic stab at the Pope, and that's exactly how the Pope interpreted
it.

One of the best writings I've ever read about Galileo and his issues with
the church was written by Former Regan area dude, Dinesh D'Souza in a book
called, "What's So Great About Christianity."

As someone who vomits internally (???) at the thought of Christian practices
that have done so much damage to the "essence" of Christianity, this was one
of the best books I have ever read. Too deep in many places for me, but a
keeper for sure.

I've given a copy to a half dozen people or so and except for one, they have
all done the same. Very impressive writing whether you are looking for real
answers or looking to see why Christianity is doomed if it goes the way of
the Bible Belt, etc.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:18:13 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on.

I can assure you that surveyors do take into account the curvature or
the Earth because the distance between lines of longitude varies with
the distance from the equator. I did surveying software back in the
'70s and know whereof I speak :-).

Correct. Surveyors DO take into account curvature. But not for "surveying a
lot."

For small distances (say, surveying a section) the difference is
undetectable. I did map creation back in the 60's for marine seismic
surveys. For most surveys, up to about 100 miles or so, there was no
discernable difference even when using different projections (Mercator,
Universal Transverse Mercator, Lambert, etc.).

J. Clarke wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
Leon wrote:
"Nantz" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:05 pm, Swingman wrote:

When 95% of the world's climatologists agree on this I have to
believe them. When 95% of the world's politicians agree on
something, there's still room for doubt.
Nantz


Apparently the climatologists are witnessing that they do not have
enough data to form anything close to an accurate conclusion in
their life times.

Less than 50 years ago, 100% of geologists were convinced of the
theory of "continental drift." In was only in the 1960's that the
notion of "Plate Tectonics" became popular. Now 100% of geologists do
NOT accept continental drift.

Uh, try that one again. "Plate tectonics" _is_ "continental drift".

Uh, not exactly. "Continental drift" was the hypothesis that continents
move around, first put forward in the 16th Century. "Plate Tectonics" (PT)
is the mechanism by which the movement takes place. Until PT, all manner of
explanations were offered as to the possible cause of the movement (if any).

On Jan 7, 12:32*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:18:13 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying
a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except
for the hills), and so on.

I can assure you that surveyors do take into account the curvature or the
Earth because the distance between lines of longitude varies with the
distance from the equator. *I did surveying software back in the '70s and
know whereof I speak :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Not to mention geodesic aberrations due to the fact that the Earth is
not a perfect sphere.

I said not to mention it. *S*

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what other
explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the masts of a
distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by positing a
hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be," ignorance of
any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes said: "If you
eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left must be the answer" is
correct as far as it goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate all
other possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence of evidence
is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying a
lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except for
the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian mechanics are the ultimate
truths for bowling, billiards, or shooting a scrot who breaks into your
shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is Flat.

On Jan 7, 5:54*pm, "LDosser" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...





Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what other
explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the masts of a
distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by positing a
hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be," ignorance of
any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes said: "If you
eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left must be the answer" is
correct as far as it goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate all
other possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence of evidence
is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying a
lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except for
the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian mechanics are the ultimate
truths for bowling, billiards, or shooting a scrot who breaks into your
shed.

Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is Flat.

Vertical or horizontal?

England is really heating up too!!

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...ritainsnow.jpg

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

AAMOF Polar Bears were actually found in Texas, rounded up and returned
to their northern home as mentioned in a recent Texas magazine
publication.
You guys had a polar bear invasion?? I never heard of that. They didn't
walk all the way to Texas did they?

Now this is a nature story that my missus would love to hear about. Any
details?


Texas Parks and Wildlife

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/ktw/media...l.2-issue5.pdf

Near the picture of the lizard, the box titled Damage Doers. Read the
entire box. ;~)

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

AAMOF Polar Bears were actually found in Texas, rounded up and returned
to their northern home as mentioned in a recent Texas magazine
publication.
You guys had a polar bear invasion?? I never heard of that. They didn't
walk all the way to Texas did they?

Now this is a nature story that my missus would love to hear about. Any
details?


Now to qualify haveing more time to look at the piece again, it is hard to
tell if it actually happened but they do say "beliece it or not" all of that
happened. I would say that any Texan would not be suprised about the ants.
;~)

On 1/7/2010 6:18 PM, Leon wrote:
"Lee wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

AAMOF Polar Bears were actually found in Texas, rounded up and returned
to their northern home as mentioned in a recent Texas magazine
publication.
You guys had a polar bear invasion?? I never heard of that. They didn't
walk all the way to Texas did they?

Now this is a nature story that my missus would love to hear about. Any
details?


Texas Parks and Wildlife

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/ktw/media...l.2-issue5.pdf

Near the picture of the lizard, the box titled Damage Doers. Read the
entire box. ;~)

Why not ... IIRC, it's snowed in Houston three times in the last five
years, and two years in a row. The two earliest snowfalls on record are
2008, and the one a few weeks back in 2009, that set the record for the
earliest ... last time it came anywhere near that was in 1944.

This is Houston, fercrissakes ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

And just to put a different spin on things. This flock of sheep that buy
into the global warming hoax are actually causing the problem themselves
by their actions. When we were poluting something fierce back in in the
50's 60's and 70's we had no global warming. It was not until we started
BS programs to clean up the environment that we caused GW.

You win the politically incorrect prize for the day. Greenies causing
GW?? LOL

THANK YOU! LOL




Whenever a passionate greenie starts to lecture me on how I am damaging
the planet, I tell them to kill themsilves to reduce the strain on the
earth's ecosystems. That shuts them up pretty quickly.

I figured their jaws would have hit the ground. ;~) That is so ruuuude.
LOL

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
On 01/06/2010 05:00 PM, CW wrote:

Not going to change anybody's mind. According to the envirowakos, the
cold
weather you are seeing is due to global warming. I still haven't figured
out
how to make ice cubes in my oven but, according to them, it is possible.
Guess I'm just not doing it right.

It's possible to use heat energy to move heat from one place to another.
For several years I used a refrigerator that ran on a kerosene flame.

Chris

MANY years ago it was comon for a niver home to have air conditioning. The
air conditionor was simply a group of gas lamps that burned to creat an air
flow from the outer windows to the center higher and open section of the
house.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

AAMOF Polar Bears were actually found in Texas, rounded up and returned
to their northern home as mentioned in a recent Texas magazine
publication.
You guys had a polar bear invasion?? I never heard of that. They didn't
walk all the way to Texas did they?

Now this is a nature story that my missus would love to hear about. Any
details?


Texas Parks and Wildlife

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/ktw/media...l.2-issue5.pdf

Near the picture of the lizard, the box titled Damage Doers. Read the
entire box. ;~)


Now that is something I would like to see. A Texas polar bear roundup. Maybe
we can get swingman to lead that little posse.

MMMmmmmmmm......, I wonder what barbecued polar bear meat would taste like?
Don't say it tastes like chicken!

As for the fire ant problem, I suggest we use a liberal/greenie solution.
Condoms!!

LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what
other explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the
masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes
said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left
must be the answer" is correct as far as it goes. The fact remains
that one cannot eliminate all other possibilities. There always
remain the cases of miracles, hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a
host of others. Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is
Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what
other explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the
masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes
said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left
must be the answer" is correct as far as it goes. The fact remains
that one cannot eliminate all other possibilities. There always
remain the cases of miracles, hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a
host of others. Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is
Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical proofs.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

AAMOF Polar Bears were actually found in Texas, rounded up and returned
to their northern home as mentioned in a recent Texas magazine
publication.
You guys had a polar bear invasion?? I never heard of that. They didn't
walk all the way to Texas did they?

Now this is a nature story that my missus would love to hear about. Any
details?


Texas Parks and Wildlife

http://www.tpwmagazine.com/ktw/media...l.2-issue5.pdf

Near the picture of the lizard, the box titled Damage Doers. Read the
entire box. ;~)



What is Spike when he's at home?

On Jan 7, 10:58*pm, "LDosser" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message

...
On Jan 7, 5:54 pm, "LDosser" wrote:





"HeyBub" wrote in message

om...

Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what other
explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the masts of a
distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by positing
a
hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be," ignorance of
any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes said: "If you
eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left must be the answer"
is
correct as far as it goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate
all
other possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence of evidence
is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house, surveying
a
lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a railroad (except for
the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian mechanics are the ultimate
truths for bowling, billiards, or shooting a scrot who breaks into your
shed.

Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is Flat.

My wife had a friend send her a picture from South Carolina of a frozen
swamp.

Is this a sign of global warming?

It don't quite look right.

Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?

There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"

Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat and
I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.

It's winter in Kansas

Oh the gentle breezes blow
Seventy miles an hour
And twenty-five below.

Oh, how I love Kansas
When the snow's up to your butt
You take a breath of winter
And your nose gets frozen shut.

Yes, the weather here is wonderful
So I guess I'll hang around
I could never leave Kansas
Cuz I'm frozen to the ground!

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 10:51:57 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:26:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
Snip



AGW.... Al Ghore Witchcraft?

Androgynous alGore Whorosity?

Ackshully, you guys are missing the proper acronym. It's AGWK, or
Anthropomorphic Global Warming, Kumbaya. You must pray afterward and
anthro means man-made. We killed the planet and we're all gonna die!

The only problem is, the water and air in the USA are cleaner now,
with more population, than they were 30 years ago. The USA now has
more forested land than it did a century ago. We have more people but
the farms are more productive. We recycle a whole lot and we have no
shortages of minerals. The idiot alarmists are wrong on absolutely
everything they spout off about.

For more REAL info, see Bailey's _Earth Report 2000_ and Huber's _Hard
Green_. I wish everyone on the planet could read them. Then we could
sit down and talk about how to truly fix our problems. People don't
have to die from the "solutions".

--
We rightly care about the environment. But our neurotic obsession
with carbon betrays an inability to distinguish between pollution
and the stuff of life itself. --Bret Stephens, WSJ 1/5/10

And just to put a different spin on things. This flock of sheep that buy
into the global warming hoax are actually causing the problem themselves by
their actions. When we were poluting something fierce back in in the 50's
60's and 70's we had no global warming. It was not until we started BS
programs to clean up the environment that we caused GW.

Did anyone ever get a tally of the CO2 spewed by all those guys going
to HopenChangen and renting upwards of 1,300 limousines for the party
in the blizzard there?

--
We rightly care about the environment. But our neurotic obsession
with carbon betrays an inability to distinguish between pollution
and the stuff of life itself. --Bret Stephens, WSJ 1/5/10

On Jan 8, 8:13*am, RonB wrote:
It's winter in Kansas

Oh *the gentle breezes blow
Seventy miles an hour
And twenty-five *below.

Oh, how I love Kansas
When the *snow's up to your butt
You take a *breath of winter
And your *nose gets frozen *shut.

Yes, the weather here is wonderful
So I guess *I'll hang around
I could *never leave Kansas
Cuz I'm frozen to *the ground!

I just got the same verse about Vermont. BTW, did yours have a
picture of an ice sculpture outhouse, complete with occupant?

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:17:59 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
scrawled the following:

On Jan 7, 5:54*pm, "LDosser" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is Flat.

Vertical or horizontal?

He means the 'verse has no boobs, silly.

--
We rightly care about the environment. But our neurotic obsession
with carbon betrays an inability to distinguish between pollution
and the stuff of life itself. --Bret Stephens, WSJ 1/5/10

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?

There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"

Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat
and
I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.


Well, the universe is curved more on the left side, and excessive curvature
is known to cause mental instability. Hence the global warming hysteria,
campaigns to save the spotted owl, and all kinds of lunacy from the left :-)

In article ,
J. Clarke wrote:
Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?

There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"

Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat and
I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.

Those following the Cosmo-line, I guess. But it's a sticky subject.

On Jan 6, 5:47*pm, RonB wrote:
Al Gore take note.

I live in Tennessee and am embarrassed that this is his home state.

On Jan 8, 1:47*pm, (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
In article ,





J. Clarke wrote:
Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.

But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?

There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"

Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat and
I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.

Those following the Cosmo-line, I guess. *But it's a sticky subject. *

Are you stringing us along?

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what
other explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the
masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock Holmes
said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left
must be the answer" is correct as far as it goes. The fact remains
that one cannot eliminate all other possibilities. There always
remain the cases of miracles, hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a
host of others. Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe is
Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

"blackemmons" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 5:47 pm, RonB wrote:
Al Gore take note.

I live in Tennessee and am embarrassed that this is his home state.

Quick, close the door. Don't let him back in.

Robert Bonomi wrote:

In article ,
J. Clarke wrote:
Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?

There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"

Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat
and I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.

Those following the Cosmo-line, I guess. But it's a sticky subject.

A little kerosene will clean that right up

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what
other explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the
masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock
Holmes said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever
is left must be the answer" is correct as far as it goes. The
fact remains that one cannot eliminate all other possibilities.
There always remain the cases of miracles, hallucination, lies,
mistakes, and a host of others. Absence of evidence is not
evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

In what paper did Sean Carroll offer a mathematical proof that spacetime is
flat?

Mark & Juanita wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

In article ,
J. Clarke wrote:
Zootal wrote:
Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.
The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.

But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.
Which cosmologists are these?
There are several models of the universe, and IIRC all of them
provide for a curvature. The exception would be the universe
described as a Euclidean space, but I don't think any cosmologists
buy into that particular theory. The question is not "is the universe
curved", but "how exactly is it curved?"
Yep, but Lobby Dosser was asserting that they had decreed it to be flat
and I want to know which particular cosmologists _he_ has in mind.
Those following the Cosmo-line, I guess. But it's a sticky subject.

A little kerosene will clean that right up



I dunno, that's a pretty dark matter.


EdR

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved -- what
other explanation can there be for the fact that you can see the
masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring cultures,
though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock
Holmes said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever
is left must be the answer" is correct as far as it goes. The
fact remains that one cannot eliminate all other possibilities.
There always remain the cases of miracles, hallucination, lies,
mistakes, and a host of others. Absence of evidence is not
evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

In what paper did Sean Carroll offer a mathematical proof that spacetime
is
flat?



The Hillsboro Argus

LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved --
what other explanation can there be for the fact that you can
see the masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring
cultures, though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock
Holmes said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities,
whatever is left must be the answer" is correct as far as it
goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate all other
possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence
of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

In what paper did Sean Carroll offer a mathematical proof that
spacetime is
flat?



The Hillsboro Argus

Do you have someting peer-reviewed?

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only. :-)
Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved --
what other explanation can there be for the fact that you can
see the masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring
cultures, though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat, right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered by
positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock
Holmes said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities,
whatever is left must be the answer" is correct as far as it
goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate all other
possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence
of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a house,
surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road, building a
railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just like Newtonian
mechanics are the ultimate truths for bowling, billiards, or
shooting a scrot who breaks into your shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the universe
is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

In what paper did Sean Carroll offer a mathematical proof that
spacetime is
flat?



The Hillsboro Argus

Do you have someting peer-reviewed?


Nope. Heard it in a lecture.

LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
LDosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Doug Miller wrote:

And you must be restricting your viewpoint to Europe only.
:-) Mariners knew
for a long time that the surface of the earth is curved --
what other explanation can there be for the fact that you
can see the masts of a distant
ship long before you can see the hull? Non-sea-faring
cultures, though, had no
such reference points -- the earth is "obviously" flat,
right?

The answer to the ship-mast question can easily be answered
by positing a hill (of water) between the ships.

As to the conclusion "what other explanation can there be,"
ignorance of any other possibility is not a proof. Sherlock
Holmes said: "If you eliminate all other possibilities,
whatever is left must be the answer" is correct as far as it
goes. The fact remains that one cannot eliminate all other
possibilities. There always remain the cases of miracles,
hallucination, lies, mistakes, and a host of others. Absence
of evidence is not evidence of anything.

As for the earth being flat, it is if you're building a
house, surveying a lot, plowing a field, laying out a road,
building a railroad (except for the hills), and so on. Just
like Newtonian mechanics are the ultimate truths for
bowling, billiards, or shooting a scrot who breaks into your
shed.




Measuring the universe. For all practical purposes, the
universe is Flat.

The planet Mercury appears to be blissfully unaware of this.


But Cosmologists have decreed it so. And offered mathematical
proofs.

Which cosmologists are these?


Sean Carroll for one.

In what paper did Sean Carroll offer a mathematical proof that
spacetime is
flat?



The Hillsboro Argus

Do you have someting peer-reviewed?


Nope. Heard it in a lecture.

Are you sure you understood correctly? Carroll seems to accept General
Relativity, which does not allow flat spacetime in a real universe.