"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
"Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
when one of the girls in my class started calling him
"Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.


These diseases spread much too easily.

Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".


I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
characters in cartoon strips.

Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm valley-speak
that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That, and effing
rap-speak... yo.

Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york street
punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that language was
important.

In article ,
Red Green wrote:

" wrote in
:
That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.

HD shared the same lot

Sounds like Williston VT.

Undoubtedly; I think that's the only place in VT where WallyWorld and HD
share a parking lot. (I think the only other city with both stores is
Rutland.) And yes, it's a horrid parking lot layout.

For those who are morbidly curious, the two stores are at opposite ends
of this lot, which has unbroken lanes running from store to store with
perpendicular parking. The two entrances/exits to the lot are at the
corners where the stores and the parking lot meet, so that the only way
to enter or exit the lot (by vehicle) is to drive along the fire lanes
where other shoppers are trying to navigate to or from their cars. Why
on earth they didn't have a single car entrance/exit lane across the
middle away from the pedestrians is a great mystery to me.

Or, if you're a visual sort of person, see the madness from above:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...q=Wal-mart,&sl
l=44.441969,-73.120193&sspn=0.001819,0.003208&ie=UTF8&radius=0. 08&rq=1&ev
=zi&hq=Wal-mart,&hnear=&ll=44.441716,-73.12025&spn=0.001819,0.003208&t=h&
z=19

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot

"CW" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
"Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
when one of the girls in my class started calling him
"Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.


These diseases spread much too easily.

Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".


I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
characters in cartoon strips.

Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm valley-speak
that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That, and effing
rap-speak... yo.

Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york street
punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that language was
important.

It's not New York.
It's N'yawk, one word.
Or, depending, New Jork.

If Bloomberg has his way, it will be New "Poor people not allowed/Owned by
Bloomberg" York.
--
EA

On Dec 16, 3:21*am, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
I tightened up a 1/4" lag screw that I bought from Home Depot earlier this
evening. *It was screwed into 1.5" fir after pre-drilling with a 1/8" pilot
hole.

After it bottomed out, I turned it just a little bit more, holding a 3/8"
ratchet handle close to the shaft, not out on the handle. *I wasn't giving
it much torque, just making sure that it was secure, when it turned to
butter.

It was less torque tha I have used in the past to tighten drywall screws.

Here is the result:

http://i45.tinypic.com/35i981s.jpg

On the plus side, it was really easy to drill a little hole in the piece
that is still left in the wood (the hole is for the EZ out).

I'm actually glad that this came apart on me; at least I know to get some
halfway decent ones now before something failed with more catastrophic
results.

Be careful what you build with the fasteners you buy from the bulk bin at
Home Depot.

Jon

I had that happen to me helping my friend build a deck using bolts
from the big box store. We snapped two of them off. Thats when I
turned my friend on to Howes Hardware. Best place I know of for
industrial quality fastenerd..

Jimmie

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:49 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Dec 16, 10:54*am, "CW" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...
. Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
--

That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite good
as f
or
layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
smaller an
d
smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza, and
have
to
be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
smaller too
.
In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
when
it
will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
skateboard.

That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but that
end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course. Stores in
NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.



HD shared the same lot

Sounds like Williston VT.

Is there another HD in VT? Didn't the Rutland HD close?

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
ng.com...
On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
said:

Got an actual hardware store in your town?

And Ace and TruValue don't count.



Why not?

A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
a real hardware store is purely unintentional.

Existential Angst wrote:
"CW" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
message ...
I resemble that remark, prolly. The director of Media
Services (supervised all the libraries in my school
district) was named Felgenhour. He used to say "prolly", and
"Prekesit". "Yes, my secretary is both good typist and good
looking. That's a job prekesit". He did get a bit steamed
when one of the girls in my class started calling him
"Felgy". He was a bit too serious, prolly.


These diseases spread much too easily.

Hey, at lease she waren't callin' 'im "Felgercarb".


I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language used by
characters in cartoon strips.

Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm
valley-speak that's creeping into even mainstream advertising.
That, and effing rap-speak... yo.

Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New york
street punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that
language was important.

It's not New York.
It's N'yawk, one word.
Or, depending, New Jork.

If Bloomberg has his way, it will be New "Poor people not
allowed/Owned by Bloomberg" York.

French lady, heading home, tells cab driver "take me to New York Airport".
Three people shout "NEWARK". She replies "I don't _care_ you you pronounce
it".

Existential Angst wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...
"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
On 12/16/2009 07:53 AM, Leon wrote:

Even a "hardened" square drive #14 screw which is .246" thread diameter
requires a larger 5/32" pilot hole in soft woods.
That seems odd.

For optimum strength in softwood, you want the pilot hole to be about
0.7 times the diameter of the root diameter of the screw. (0.9x in
hardwood--or more particularly for wood with a specific gravity greater
than 0.6) The clearance hole should be big enough that the threads
don't engage, of course.

The above is from:

http://www.awc.org/pdf/NDSCommentary...pp133to139.pdf

Chris
I did not look and don't doubt your findings but if fully embedded threads
are not going to hold, a tight hole is not going to be any better. IMHO
making the pilot hole smaller will crush the wood fibers when the screw
goes in and in turn would weaken the part that the threads cut into. Then
add to that the unnessary extra torque to properly seat the screw which
IMHO would increase the chance of breakage.

Well, it seems to me that compression would strengthen the material
surrounding the lag threads.
Think roll tapping (or thread forming) vs cut tapping, and/or think of a
simple nail that compresses wood fibers.
Roll tapping sposedly forms a stronger thread than cut tapping -- not
perfectly analogous here, but it does sort of illustrate the benefit and
strength of displaced material.

The Q is: what is the best overall compromise?
In soft wood, I would go .010 smaller than root diameter, just to
guarantee full thread engagement, esp. with iffy drilling. Which would only
be .005 worth of compression.
But, appaently in hard wood, you don't even want full engagement! Go
figger....

The japanese dispensed with threads altogether, and just used
dowels/pins/pegs.
In the case, say, of a corner fence post, if you put snug-ish dowels in X,
Y, and Z (per joint), the joint would be fully constrained. If all dowel
holes were made through holes, the dowels could be easily removed.
Actually, I think you could just as well dispense with the Z dowel, as each
dowel effectively constrains 2 dimensions.

Don't know how practical this is, but it does have its own elegance.
I heard recently about japanese/tibetan structures fastened like this, still
standing after centuries -- nary a thread in sight. Of course, gravity
helps in these cases, as well.

They needed all the metal to make swords for lopping the heads off of
their enemies.

TDD

In article m, Steve wrote:
On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
said:

Got an actual hardware store in your town?

And Ace and TruValue don't count.

I see you're in Indianapolis too... What do *you* consider to be "actual
hardware stores" here, then, if Ace and TV don't count?

notbob wrote in message
...
On 2009-12-16, The Ranger wrote:

My two-time experiences with McFeeleys...

Hey Range! I didn't know you could drive a nail.

Thanks, nb; Merry (****in') Christmas to you too. Ya CO Refugee PITA.

I've been drivin' nails, torquin' bolts, and other sundry DIY jobs for
several decades now. Some jobs were easier than others and some jobs should
have been left to professionals (or at least the professionals should have
been called in earlier) but I'm very much a DIYer. It learning my
limitations that's been the [mostly] fun part.

The Ranger

"krw" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:24:15 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
ing.com...
On 2009-12-16 08:53:25 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
said:

Got an actual hardware store in your town?

And Ace and TruValue don't count.



Why not?

A few of them might count, but the only resemblance of an Ace or TV to
a real hardware store is purely unintentional.


That really depends on how they're run by the individual owners. The one I
use is pretty remarkable.

Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
store is. Might be between the Henrietta Roads. It's a
miserable PIA to get in and out of the lot. The one on West
Ridge is MUCH easier to get in and out.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there.
The
parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all
the
way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers.
The
Victor NY store isn't so bad.


I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.

You are so, so right. I'll not make that mistake again.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
I had a similiar experience, with a Home Cheepo bolt.
Problem was, I was trying to atach the lower bracket of an
alternator, on my van. The bolt sheared off. I had not
torqued it very much. 3/8 drive wrench, no extender bar,
and
not even much muscle power. Not with any real torque. I
decided to leave it there, and eventually junked the van.


Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.

I like t his group. Lot of first hand wisdom. Maybe grade 5
was the way to go. Sigh. Well, the van has been junked, ages
ago. I guess for the next time, I'll try grade 5, and let
the class know how it worked out.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"notbob" wrote in message
...

Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.

Not necessarily. I had a similar problem, likewise, an
alternator on
a van engine. In my case, the entire top of the alternator
hung off
the extended bolt shaft. I changed to a grade 8 bolt and it
snapped
right off from vibration within a couple days, the grade 8
being too
brittle. Went back to a grade 5.

nb

That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
Sargeant spit blood?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"CW" wrote in message
...

I was referring to cute word wreckage based on language
used by
characters in cartoon strips.

Sheeit, I'll take word wreckage any day, over this goddamm
valley-speak
that's creeping into even mainstream advertising. That,
and effing
rap-speak... yo.

Reminds me of a guy I went through basic training with. New
york street
punk. First time he said "yo sargent", he found out that
language was
important.

I have tried it. It's a non-event.

How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in order to avoid
having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because of the way a
parking lot was designed?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the
store is. Might be between the Henrietta Roads. It's a
miserable PIA to get in and out of the lot. The one on West
Ridge is MUCH easier to get in and out.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
The Henrietta, NY Home Depot, I won't even go in there.
The
parking lot requires three or four "crank the wheel all
the
way" to get around the parking lot medians and dividers.
The
Victor NY store isn't so bad.


I hope you're kidding, but I suspect you're not.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I like t his group. Lot of first hand wisdom. Maybe grade 5
was the way to go. Sigh. Well, the van has been junked, ages
ago. I guess for the next time, I'll try grade 5, and let
the class know how it worked out.


"notbob" wrote in message
...

Should have been using a grade 8 bolt.

Not necessarily. I had a similar problem, likewise, an
alternator on
a van engine. In my case, the entire top of the alternator
hung off
the extended bolt shaft. I changed to a grade 8 bolt and it
snapped
right off from vibration within a couple days, the grade 8
being too
brittle. Went back to a grade 5.

Yep. People don't understand that when you harden steel you're narrowing
the margin between yield strength and ultimate tensile strength. Get it
hard enough and there's no yield at all--it doesn't move until it breaks,
where a weaker bolt will bend just a tiny amount and relieve stresses, and
incidentally work harden a tiny bit in the process.


nb

On 2009-12-17, The Ranger wrote:

Thanks, nb; Merry (****in') Christmas to you too. Ya CO Refugee PITA.

Gawd, how I miss that native CA warmth.

been called in earlier) but I'm very much a DIYer. It learning my
limitations that's been the [mostly] fun part.

Ditto here. Right now its kinda hard to drive a deck screw through 2
ft snow, but come Spring I'll be make sawdust again. You and the clan
have a Merry Christmas, also, and when it warms up, run over to the
Coast and make sure the Pacific is still there. I worry so.

nb

krw wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:49 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Dec 16, 10:54*am, "CW" wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...
. Even the parking at HD is ill-thought out.
--

That varies from store to store. The one closest to me is quite
good as f
or
layout. What is a PIA is that parking spaces have been getting
smaller an
d
smaller.When you pull in to a parking spot, in a Subaru Impreza,
and have
to
be careful not to hit the car next to you with your door as you get
out, it's getting a bit tight. The spacing between rows is getting
smaller too
.
In my F250, I have to park out in "no mans land". I can see the day
when
it
will be impractical to park anything larger than a motorized
skateboard.

That also varies from store to store (they don't always own the
buildings or the land). When I lived in VT I rarely went into the
WallyWorld because the lot was crazy. HD shared the same lot but
that end wasn't as busy so was less of a human obstacle course.
Stores in NE OH had no such problems, nor do the ones here in AL.



HD shared the same lot

Sounds like Williston VT.

Is there another HD in VT? Didn't the Rutland HD close?

Would you like me to drive from NC to find out for you or do you want
Keithw to go from AL to check?

Store locator tab, nahhhhhh...

notbob wrote in message
...
[..] also, and when it warms up, run over to the
Coast and make sure the Pacific is still there. I
worry so.

Are you kidding?! Wait for warmer weather? Spawn's one of them-thar polar
b'ahrs. She loves the Pacific in winter.

The Ranger

My long wheelbase panel van, it's an event. I live closer to
the Victor store, anyhow. It's only a couple miles to
Lowe's.

To answer your question, though. Five or so miles. I try to
plan trips ahead of time, and thier miserable parking lot is
a real nonplusser. Same with Goodwill ABVI in Victor. Too
many tight turns.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
I have tried it. It's a non-event.

How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in
order to avoid
having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because
of the way a
parking lot was designed?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the

Bend like the willow, don't break like the oak.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"J. Clarke"
wrote in message ...

Yep. People don't understand that when you harden steel
you're narrowing
the margin between yield strength and ultimate tensile
strength. Get it
hard enough and there's no yield at all--it doesn't move
until it breaks,
where a weaker bolt will bend just a tiny amount and relieve
stresses, and
incidentally work harden a tiny bit in the process.

Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot hole,
then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag bolts.

A quality lag bolt would have split the wood.

Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:31 -0600, dpb wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook that has this
spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has it!
The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as .173".

The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the pilot
hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between 0.7 and 0.9
times the root diameter, depending on the density of the wood in
question--softwood gets a smaller hole.

Chris

Where does that come from?

...

Long lore, at least...

I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in some
of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications. It was
something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed classes is
first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if it was taught as
a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller, rr-ties get bigger" was
the gist of it.


I don't see the point. The pilot hole sizes quoted work for nails
where compression determines strength but I don't see any benefit in
having a pilot hole of less than the root diameter of a threaded
fastener.
....

The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
softwoods that tend often to "crumble".

No claim made (at least by me) that there's any _precise_ ratio other
than the aforementioned bigger/smaller based on the material.

I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
time to search for it.

--

On 2009-12-17, Steve B wrote:


Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot hole,
then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag bolts.

A quality lag bolt would have split the wood.

Heh....

Now that's a great debate. Wood vs metal. On its surface it seems
simple, but....

Gentlemen, take your mark!

nb

On 2009-12-17, dpb wrote:

The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
softwoods that tend often to "crumble".

Hmmm....

Seems like it would be the opposite, the softer wood requiring a
smaller pilot hole for more compression in surrounding wood to
"ensure" a solid bite in a wood that tends to "crumble".

nb

dpb wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:31 -0600, dpb wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:25:08 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

On 12/16/2009 01:13 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:03:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


Mebbe there is a woodworker's equiv to Machinery's Handbook
that has this spec -- heh, mebbe even Machinery's handbook has
it!
The 27th Edition lists the root diameter of a 1/4" lag bolt as
.173".

The next natural drill size is .187, or 3/16".
For optimum strength in solid wood you actually want to drill the
pilot hole smaller than the root diameter. Specifically between
0.7 and 0.9 times the root diameter, depending on the density of
the wood in question--softwood gets a smaller hole.

Chris

Where does that come from?

...

Long lore, at least...

I don't have a direct URL; I'd expect you'd find the information in
some of the US Forest Products Laboratory technical publications.
It was something I was taught way back in one of first HS ag-ed
classes is first I recall it personally, anyway...don't recall if
it was taught as a specific ratio, only "tubafores get smaller,
rr-ties get bigger" was the gist of it.


I don't see the point. The pilot hole sizes quoted work for nails
where compression determines strength but I don't see any benefit in
having a pilot hole of less than the root diameter of a threaded
fastener.
...

The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
softwoods that tend often to "crumble".

No claim made (at least by me) that there's any _precise_ ratio other
than the aforementioned bigger/smaller based on the material.

I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
time to search for it.

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40% to 70%
of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60% to 75%; and
for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to lag
screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag screws of
larger diameters."

Steve B wrote:
Yes, I was going to say that the OP drilled far too small a pilot
hole, then blamed the breakage on them goldurn cheap Chinese lag
bolts.

A quality lag bolt would have split the wood.

A quality lag bolt was purchased (stainless steel, US made) from a fastener
store. The lag bolt was tightened up securely, but the wood is not split

Got any other "theories" Steve?

Jon

J. Clarke wrote:

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
screws of larger diameters."

Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
appreciated!

The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.

Jon

Your usual vehicle is a long van?



"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
My long wheelbase panel van, it's an event. I live closer to
the Victor store, anyhow. It's only a couple miles to
Lowe's.

To answer your question, though. Five or so miles. I try to
plan trips ahead of time, and thier miserable parking lot is
a real nonplusser. Same with Goodwill ABVI in Victor. Too
many tight turns.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
I have tried it. It's a non-event.

How far out of your way would you be willing to drive, in
order to avoid
having to turn your steering wheel in certain ways because
of the way a
parking lot was designed?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
Try it sometime.... Jefferson Road, just east of E.
Henrietta Road. If my memory is working, as to where the

notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-17, dpb wrote:

The point is to have a larger pilot-hole in softer woods than hardwood
to minimize the effort of installation but to ensure a full bite which
can be marginal if use a full root diameter for pilot, particularly in
softwoods that tend often to "crumble".

Hmmm....

Seems like it would be the opposite, the softer wood requiring a

Mea culpa...yes, that was inadvertent swap of the intent I didn't
catch... sorry.

--

J. Clarke wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

I'd still wager there is some information at US FPL but I've not taken
time to search for it.

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:
....

Indeed...thanks for saving me the effort...

Now if I just hadn't made the swap of sense in the relative sizes...

--

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:19:09 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
screws of larger diameters."

Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
appreciated!

The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.

Jon



What do you mean by "shank diameter"?

Machinery's Handbook lists the "body" or "shoulder" diameter of a 1/4"
lag bolt as between .237" and .260". This is the area that is not
threaded.

The "root diameter" is listed as .173". This is the diameter of the
remaining cylinder after the threads are formed.



(American National Standard Square Lag Screws - ANSI/ASME
B18.2.1-1996)





Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of
0.182". Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five
percent of this value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8"
right in the middle.

Jon



What do you mean by "shank diameter"?

Machinery's Handbook lists the "body" or "shoulder" diameter of a 1/4"
lag bolt as between .237" and .260". This is the area that is not
threaded.

The "root diameter" is listed as .173". This is the diameter of the
remaining cylinder after the threads are formed.

(American National Standard Square Lag Screws - ANSI/ASME
B18.2.1-1996)

Thanks Tom, I should have said the root diameter.

Jon

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40% to 70%
of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60% to 75%; and
for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to lag
screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag screws of
larger diameters."


I wonder if that material was written in modern years or 30 plus. I see lag
screw failures galore.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
J. Clarke wrote:

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
screws of larger diameters."

Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
appreciated!

The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of 0.182".
Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five percent of this
value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8" right in the middle.

Jon


BUT Jon,,,,,, While it is a kewl reference that agrees with what you were
using as a pilot hole, how did that work out for you?

The information could be out dated for readily available fasteners today.
If might be a new publication using old data.

"Jon Danniken" wrote:

A quality lag bolt was purchased (stainless steel, US made) from a
fastener store.

The US has been out of the general fastener business for decades.

Had a couple of customers who were fastener manufacturers go belly up
while I was still back in Cleveland, a town that was, at one time, a
major fastener manufacturing center.

Most of the S/S comes in from India these days.

Lew

Leon wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

It's in "Wood As An Engineering Material", Page 7-11. What they say
is:

"For low-density softwoods, such as the cedars and white pines, 40%
to 70% of the shank diameter; for Douglas-fir and Southern Pine, 60%
to 75%; and for dense hardwoods, such
as oaks, 65% to 85%. The smaller percentage in each range applies to
lag screws of the smaller diameters and the larger percentage to lag
screws of larger diameters."

Excellent reference, J. Thank you for posting that, it is very much
appreciated!

The lag bolt which snapped off had an average shank diameter of
0.182". Sixty percent of this value is 0.1092, while seventy five
percent of this value is 0.1365, which puts a pilot bit of 1/8"
right in the middle. Jon


BUT Jon,,,,,, While it is a kewl reference that agrees with what you
were using as a pilot hole, how did that work out for you?

It works out great, Leon, once I purchased lag bolts that weren't from the
bulk bin at Home Depot. The bolts are currently holding up a home-made
welded bracket, which in turn is holding up my bathroom sink.

The sink itself weighs maybe 20 or 30 pounds, so I tested the bracket by
holding myself up with it, and it didn't budge.

Jon

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
Sargeant spit blood?

--
Got to hand it to him though, the kid was tough. It took about three weeks
for the drill sargents (four of them ganged up on him) to entirely kick the
"bad ass" attitude out of him. By that time though, they had already decided
he wasn't going to graduate. They made his life hell for the entire cycle.
Just before graduation, they sent him home. He was a source of entertainment
though. Everyone kept track of "the adventures of Lewis". Most memorable was
when we went to the gas chamber. Lewis had been given (intentionally) a
defective mask. Upon entering the chamber, he started to gag, threw off his
mask and ran for the door. The drill sargent kicked his mask into the far
corner as another one, just outside the door, grabbed him and through him
back in. They made him crawl around in there until he found his mask. When
he did, he picked it up and again ran out the door. Again he was thrown back
in, made to clear and seal his mask (which did not work). He did as he was
told and then ran out the door again. Again, he was thrown back in. The
drill sargent said "I didn't tell you to leave". He was made to stand there
for a minute when the drill sargent told him to take off his mask and get
out. Did I mention the 30 inch diameter oak just outside the door? Lewis, by
this time not being able to see, met that tree at full speed.

"CW" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
That could hurt. Let me guess, the Sargeant wasn't all that
impressed? And the NYC kid found out how to make the
Sargeant spit blood?

--
Got to hand it to him though, the kid was tough. It took about three weeks
for the drill sargents (four of them ganged up on him) to entirely kick
the "bad ass" attitude out of him. By that time though, they had already
decided he wasn't going to graduate. They made his life hell for the
entire cycle. Just before graduation, they sent him home. He was a source
of entertainment though. Everyone kept track of "the adventures of Lewis".
Most memorable was when we went to the gas chamber. Lewis had been given
(intentionally) a defective mask. Upon entering the chamber, he started to
gag, threw off his mask and ran for the door. The drill sargent kicked his
mask into the far corner as another one, just outside the door, grabbed
him and through him back in. They made him crawl around in there until he
found his mask. When he did, he picked it up and again ran out the door.
Again he was thrown back in, made to clear and seal his mask (which did
not work). He did as he was told and then ran out the door again. Again,
he was thrown back in. The drill sargent said "I didn't tell you to
leave". He was made to stand there for a minute when the drill sargent
told him to take off his mask and get out. Did I mention the 30 inch
diameter oak just outside the door? Lewis, by this time not being able to
see, met that tree at full speed.


I know a kid who went through something similar. Apparently, they're allowed
a certain amount of time to phone family. Well, this kid was never
particularly polite to his mother, to put it mildly. This day on the phone,
he was being especially obnoxious with her. That was the first and last
mistake he made in the Marines, because his drill sergeant was standing
silently right behind him as he talked to mom. His mother told me later that
the kid was having "a rough time" in the Marines afterward. The sergeant
made sure of that in every way he could.