I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

" wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my
new (I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for
rounding the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or
should I square the ends of the mortises?

A 10" flat ******* file and a little elbow grease knocks off the
corners of a tenon for me.

YMMV

Lew

wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Everybody has their preference. On my current project (a simple desk
table -- pictures coming in a couple weeks), I tried the rounded tenon
approach on a couple of the joints. I decided that for me, squaring the
mortise with chisel was faster and more precise than trying to round the
tenons. So, about 1 1/2 tenons were rounded, the rest had the mortises
squared.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:00:42 -0600, "
wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Which way would be easiest for you?

The only time I think it makes a difference is if the tenon end will
be exposed or even extend beyond the other face. In that case I would
square the mortise.

YMMV.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

routerman wrote:
Seems a little crazy to finally produce the perfect tenon (see pix),
only to mess it up with a rasp.

I'm sorry, are these not going to be covered in glue and hidden for
eternity?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

routerman wrote:

Seems a little crazy to finally produce the perfect tenon (see pix),
only to mess it up with a rasp.
http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg

The tenon on the left appears round to me. YMMV :-D

If a router is used with a template that produces round-end tenons that
exactly fit a round-end mortise, where is the lack of perfection?

Makes more esthetic, but not necessarily practical sense, to square up
the mortice.

How and why so?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

Your choice ... but factor into your decision the fact that your joint
strength will basically come from the face to face surface glue area on
the sides of your tenons and mortises, not necessarily from tenons
perfectly rounded to fit the rounded mortise ends.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote:

Your choice ... but factor into your decision the fact that your
joint strength will basically come from the face to face surface
glue area on the sides of your tenons and mortises, not necessarily
from tenons perfectly rounded to fit the rounded mortise ends.

Precisely.

As to the relative strength of each, from a 1,000 feet, a flying red
horse can't tell the difference.

Lew

Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:00:42 -0600, "
wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Which way would be easiest for you?

The only time I think it makes a difference is if the tenon end will
be exposed or even extend beyond the other face. In that case I would
square the mortise.

In most cases the major face of a tenon is making long grain contact with a
corresponding long grain mating surface in the mortise (and we all know that
long grain mating surfaces make the strongest glue joints), whereas the narrow
face of the tenon is usually mating with end grain in the mortise. Whether it
really matters depends on the particular joint, but rounding the tenons does
steal away a bit of the long grain to long grain contact, thus yielding a less
than "perfect" joint. Personally, I always square up my mortises and tenons.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Swingman wrote:
wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my
new (I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for
rounding the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or
should I square the ends of the mortises?

Your choice ... but factor into your decision the fact that your joint
strength will basically come from the face to face surface glue area on
the sides of your tenons and mortises, not necessarily from tenons
perfectly rounded to fit the rounded mortise ends.

Hey! I promise I hadn't seen your post before I sent mine off. I just said
basically the same thing using entirely different words. :-)

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:58:44 -0600, Steve Turner
wrote:

Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:00:42 -0600, "
wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Which way would be easiest for you?

The only time I think it makes a difference is if the tenon end will
be exposed or even extend beyond the other face. In that case I would
square the mortise.

In most cases the major face of a tenon is making long grain contact with a
corresponding long grain mating surface in the mortise (and we all know that
long grain mating surfaces make the strongest glue joints), whereas the narrow
face of the tenon is usually mating with end grain in the mortise. Whether it
really matters depends on the particular joint, but rounding the tenons does
steal away a bit of the long grain to long grain contact, thus yielding a less
than "perfect" joint. Personally, I always square up my mortises and tenons.

Hey, how do you spell the "raspberry" sound? :-)

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Steve Turner wrote:

Hey! I promise I hadn't seen your post before I sent mine off. I just
said basically the same thing using entirely different words. :-)

Not to worry ... happens to me all the time!

Great minds ...


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Gordon Shumway wrote:


Hey, how do you spell the "raspberry" sound? :-)

Somewhere in a dark corner of my mind I seem to remember a published
test where rounded mortise and tenons actually fared better than squared.

What will really frost any anal about their M&T "fit" is seeing x-rays
of some very sloppy old M&T joints in antique furniture, and from some
of the more famous woodworkers.

Scare the hell out of you ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote:


Hey, how do you spell the "raspberry" sound? :-)

Somewhere in a dark corner of my mind I seem to remember a published
test where rounded mortise and tenons actually fared better than squared.

Seems unlikely that would be true, but I guess stranger things have happened.

I would think it even less likely to hold true in the case where both faces of
the tenon approach the same dimension, the worst case being an exact square
where rounding the tenon yields a regular dowel joint. A square M&T joint is
most certainly stronger than a dowel joint, but then it's a bit of an unfair
comparison because a dowel joint is susceptible to twisting forces.

What will really frost any anal about their M&T "fit" is seeing x-rays
of some very sloppy old M&T joints in antique furniture, and from some
of the more famous woodworkers.

Scare the hell out of you ...

Yeah, but a mortise and tenon is a great joint to begin with, so even a sloppy
one is reasonably strong. Still no excuse for crappy workmanship though! :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Dec 12, 7:00*pm, " wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. *What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? *I've got about a dozen to do. *Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Easy, Use a router in a table and a round over bit. Oh wait... I use
floating tenons. Never mind.

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 7:00 pm, " wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Easy, Use a router in a table and a round over bit. Oh wait... I use
floating tenons. Never mind.



There you go, floating tennons. Round over bit for a tennon that is part
of the end of a board, hard to do the entire length, the sholder will be the
limiting factor.

Since you are already using floating tennons you should go ahead and buy
your Festool Domino now. I have had mine about 2.5 years now and was not
totally sure how much I would use it. Counting the tennons I have purchased
and used so far I have cut nearely 2,000 mortises with the Domino. That is
an average of about 16 mortises every week. You will find yourself using
floating tennons more and more.

Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. LOL

Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. LOL


Sloap: A soap like material that is used on a slope to make it slippery.
;~)

On Dec 14, 9:01*am, "Leon" wrote:
Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. *LOL

Sloap: *A soap like material that is used on a slope to make it slippery.
;~)

Lol!! Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee just now.

On Dec 14, 8:55*am, "Leon" wrote:
"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message

...
On Dec 12, 7:00 pm, " wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Easy, *Use a router in a table and a round over bit. *Oh wait... I use
floating tenons. * Never mind.

There you go, floating tennons. *Round over bit *for a tennon that is part
of the end of a board, hard to do the entire length, the sholder will be the
limiting factor.

Since you are already using floating tennons you *should go ahead and buy
your Festool Domino now. *I have had mine about 2.5 years now and was not
totally sure how much I would use it. *Counting the tennons I have purchased
and used so far I have cut nearely 2,000 mortises with the Domino. *That is
an average of about 16 mortises every week. *You will find yourself using
floating tennons more and more.

Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. *LOL

Tempting. Very tempting. I'm actually considering building a
horizontal mortiser with Z axis control.

Interesting, I would have thought they would make rounded tenons. I
know that is how the Leigh FMT works.

If you will square the slotted mortises you can make a cool tool that
I learned about from Darrell Peart. Use the chisel from a square
chisel mortiser as a hand tool to square up the ends. I think Darrell
is having Leigh Valley or Lei Neilson or someone like that produce
them commercially. I have a few ideas myself of improvememts by adding
an extension that fits in the slot to line it up and an adjustment so
you can hold it a specified distance from the rounded end. I am
watching ebay for a super deal on square chisels. I've misswd two good
deals because ai was too busy to watch the auction closely.

On Dec 12, 4:00*pm, " wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. *What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? *I've got about a dozen to do. *Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

" wrote in message
...
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new (I
love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding the
ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I square the
ends of the mortises?

The Woodrat looks like a mill machine with the sliding table upside down,
and some other modifications for woodworking. Pretty cool.

On 12/12/2009 06:00 PM, wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

This paper from the "Dept. of Forest Industrial Engineering" in Turkey
shows square-ended mortise/tenon joints to be about 15% stronger on
average than round ended ones.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/agric...-8-0412-16.pdf

Likely not going to be the deciding factor in the design, but if you're
borderline on strength you might want to go for the square ends.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
On 12/12/2009 06:00 PM, wrote:
I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

This paper from the "Dept. of Forest Industrial Engineering" in Turkey
shows square-ended mortise/tenon joints to be about 15% stronger on
average than round ended ones.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/agric...-8-0412-16.pdf

The last test by "Fine Woodworking" shows 3/8", square cornered,
traditional M&T joints to be only roughly 3.5% stronger than round
cornered, 3/8" loose tenons.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdf/011203036.pdf

Somebody is obviously full of it ...

Either test notwithstanding, IME, it is nothing to be concerned with.
AAMOF, the 3/8", rounded corner, loose tenon joint is almost twice as
strong as the ubiquitous 1/4", square cornered, traditional M&T joint.

Likely not going to be the deciding factor in the design, but if
you're borderline on strength you might want to go for the square
ends.

Not to nitpick, but in that case I personally would first consider a
thicker mortise and tenon if possible.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:55:25 -0800 (PST), the infamous routerman
scrawled the following:

Seems a little crazy to finally produce the perfect tenon (see pix),
only to mess it up with a rasp.
http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg
Makes more esthetic, but not necessarily practical sense, to square up
the mortice.

Yeah, doesn't anyone use chisels any more? It's also an RCH stronger
with it squared up. 'Course, I bought a Shop Fox Mortiser for that
purpose, the Normite version of a v-groove chisel.


Notwithstanding, it is a hell of lot harder to square a deep inside
cut than to round over an outside one.

True, but...

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents ****-Poor Performance

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:25:26 -0600, the infamous Swingman
scrawled the following:

Gordon Shumway wrote:


Hey, how do you spell the "raspberry" sound? :-)

Somewhere in a dark corner of my mind I seem to remember a published
test where rounded mortise and tenons actually fared better than squared.

What will really frost any anal about their M&T "fit" is seeing x-rays
of some very sloppy old M&T joints in antique furniture, and from some
of the more famous woodworkers.

Scare the hell out of you ...

Fess up! Where'd you see the x-rays of those, Swingy? We wanna see,
too!

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:23:33 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

routerman wrote:
Seems a little crazy to finally produce the perfect tenon (see pix),
only to mess it up with a rasp.

I'm sorry, are these not going to be covered in glue and hidden for
eternity?

So, it's OK for GM to use untempered Chiwanese steel for head bolts on
your new pickemup truck's engine? They'll be covered in oil and
hidden under the rocker covers for...days?

Now go wash those impure thoughts out of your mind, young man.

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 14:55:26 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
scrawled the following:


"Swingman" wrote:

Your choice ... but factor into your decision the fact that your
joint strength will basically come from the face to face surface
glue area on the sides of your tenons and mortises, not necessarily
from tenons perfectly rounded to fit the rounded mortise ends.

Precisely.

As to the relative strength of each, from a 1,000 feet, a flying red
horse can't tell the difference.

P'raps not, Lew, but wouldn't you really rather have the squared
tenons if you were seated on the wagon behind said flying horse?

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

P'raps not, Lew, but wouldn't you really rather have the squared
tenons if you were seated on the wagon behind said flying horse?

Putty those joints with epoxy and don't sweat the small stuff or pet
the sweaty stuff.

Lew

Swingman wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Likely not going to be the deciding factor in the design, but if
you're borderline on strength you might want to go for the square
ends.

Not to nitpick, but in that case I personally would first consider a
thicker mortise and tenon if possible.

Likewise on the nitpick, but before you increase the thickness of the tenon
first consider the wall thickness of the mortised piece. The tenon isn't the
only part of the joint that can fail.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Likely not going to be the deciding factor in the design, but if
you're borderline on strength you might want to go for the square
ends.

Not to nitpick, but in that case I personally would first consider a
thicker mortise and tenon if possible.

Likewise on the nitpick, but before you increase the thickness of the
tenon first consider the wall thickness of the mortised piece. The
tenon isn't the only part of the joint that can fail.

"if possible" ...



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:55:25 -0800 (PST), the infamous routerman
scrawled the following:

Seems a little crazy to finally produce the perfect tenon (see pix),
only to mess it up with a rasp.
http://patwarner.com/images/index_tenon.jpg
Makes more esthetic, but not necessarily practical sense, to square up
the mortice.

Yeah, doesn't anyone use chisels any more?

raises hand

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Swingman wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Likely not going to be the deciding factor in the design, but if
you're borderline on strength you might want to go for the square
ends.

Not to nitpick, but in that case I personally would first consider a
thicker mortise and tenon if possible.

Likewise on the nitpick, but before you increase the thickness of the
tenon first consider the wall thickness of the mortised piece. The
tenon isn't the only part of the joint that can fail.

"if possible" ...

I thought about writing my response so as not to get that reply, but I was too
lazy. :-)

What's that rule? The walls of the mortise shouldn't be any thinner than the
thickness of the tenon? For example, a M&T joint in 3/4" stock shouldn't have
a tenon any thicker than 1/4"; Zat sound right?

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote:

What's that rule? The walls of the mortise shouldn't be any thinner
than the thickness of the tenon? For example, a M&T joint in 3/4"
stock shouldn't have a tenon any thicker than 1/4"; Zat sound right?

A guide from my days doing machine design.

Allow the tenon to be 50% of the stock thickness which means the
cheeks of the mortise will each be 25% of the stock thickness.

Based on the above, for a piece of 3/4" stock, the tenon would be 3/8"
thick and each cheek will be 3/16" thick.

The cheeks and the tenon equally share the load, thus have equal total
thickness.

Works for me.

YMMV

Lew

On 12/14/2009 10:19 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

What's that rule? The walls of the mortise shouldn't be any thinner than the
thickness of the tenon? For example, a M&T joint in 3/4" stock shouldn't have
a tenon any thicker than 1/4"; Zat sound right?

For machine cut mortises, the walls of the mortise combined shouldn't be
thinner than the thickness of the tenon. This equalizes the amount of
wood in each component. For 3/4" stock, the tenon should be 3/8".

For hand-cut mortises, you'll often see the 1/3" rule, which results in
1/4" tenons. There are two reasons given for this: 1) hand cutting is
harder on the piece being mortised, so this gives a bit more wall
strength, and 2) it's quicker to cut a 1/4" mortise since you're
removing only half the material.

And note that it's the thickness of the piece being mortised that is the
main criteria here...there's no real downside of having a fat tenon on
the piece being tenoned as long as there is still some shoulder left.
So if you have a table apron joining with a thicker leg, you can use a
tenon thicker than half the thickness of the apron.

Chris

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:01:51 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:



Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. LOL


Sloap: A soap like material that is used on a slope to make it slippery.
;~)

S/B "Swingman and me", too. When you say the people individually, it
becomes clear. "Come join Swingman down that slippery slope." and
"Come join me down that slippery slope."

Hmm, inviting guys to play with the sloap with you? No comment.
knowing grinne

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Fess up! Where'd you see the x-rays of those, Swingy? We wanna see,
too!


Interesting to see. Swingman showed me a few weeks ago. Almost shocking as
to the lack of uniformity inside those joints.

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:47:20 -0800 (PST), the infamous Brian Grella
scrawled the following:

On Dec 14, 8:55*am, "Leon" wrote:
"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message

...
On Dec 12, 7:00 pm, " wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

Easy, *Use a router in a table and a round over bit. *Oh wait... I use
floating tenons. * Never mind.

There you go, floating tennons. *Round over bit *for a tennon that is part
of the end of a board, hard to do the entire length, the sholder will be the
limiting factor.

Since you are already using floating tennons you *should go ahead and buy
your Festool Domino now. *I have had mine about 2.5 years now and was not
totally sure how much I would use it. *Counting the tennons I have purchased
and used so far I have cut nearely 2,000 mortises with the Domino. *That is
an average of about 16 mortises every week. *You will find yourself using
floating tennons more and more.

Come join Swingman and I down that slippery sloap. *LOL

Tempting. Very tempting. I'm actually considering building a
horizontal mortiser with Z axis control.

Remember David Marks playing with that $3500 multirouter thang? Cool
toy, could be built for 10 cents on the dollar. David sells it for
$2695 now http://www.djmarks.com/multirouter.asp

Speaking of David, I never saw this particular video:
http://fwd4.me/8Mi jigs for curvilinear wooddorking.

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

Larry Jaques wrote:


Remember David Marks playing with that $3500 multirouter thang? Cool
toy, could be built for 10 cents on the dollar. David sells it for
$2695 now http://www.djmarks.com/multirouter.asp

Here's mine ... scroll down to "Mortises in curved work, "Method 1"":

http://www.e-woodshop.net/Jigs.htm

One of the most productive tools in a productive shop ... it's paid for
itself a few times over in the time it would have taken me to build one
for "10 cents on the dollar", and undoubtably will a few times more.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:59:08 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote:

P'raps not, Lew, but wouldn't you really rather have the squared
tenons if you were seated on the wagon behind said flying horse?

Putty those joints with epoxy and don't sweat the small stuff or pet
the sweaty stuff.

Aye be gar! Spoken like a true non-land-lubber, it was.

--
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------

On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:00:42 -0600, "
wrote:

I've cut all my mortises for the kitchen cart I'm crafting using my new
(I love this gadget) Woodrat. What's the preferred method for rounding
the ends of the tenons? I've got about a dozen to do. Or should I
square the ends of the mortises?

TIA

Larry

A steel file should round the tenons. There is a part next to the
cheek that can be removed with a small sharp chisel. Generally a
mortise is more difficult to make adjustments than a tenon.