How much vibration is normal in the belt of a contractor saw? The saw/belt
is about eight years old but has rarely been used. The belt appears to be
in excellent condition, but the up/down vibration of the belt as it comes of
the pulley appears to be bit excessive. How much is too much?

Best,
Christopher

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:41:07 -0800, "Christopher Glaeser"
wrote:

How much vibration is normal in the belt of a contractor saw? The saw/belt
is about eight years old but has rarely been used. The belt appears to be
in excellent condition, but the up/down vibration of the belt as it comes of
the pulley appears to be bit excessive. How much is too much?

Best,
Christopher



Can you balance a nickel on edge? If not, check the tension or how
much the belt deflects when firmly pressed with one finger--you can
actually measure this accurately using a cricket guage. There are
many other things that can cause vibration, loose bolts, pitch
buildup/damage on blade, damaged pulley, bent shaft, change in natural
frequencies, etc. Inspect everything, time for a tuneup.

check the tension or how
much the belt deflects when firmly pressed with one finger--you can
actually measure this accurately using a cricket guage.

What is the recommended delfection tolerance?

If a saw is stored for extended periods of time, should the belt be removed
to avoid uneven stretching?

Best,
Christopher

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
How much vibration is normal in the belt of a contractor saw? The saw/belt
is about eight years old but has rarely been used. The belt appears to be
in excellent condition, but the up/down vibration of the belt as it comes of
the pulley appears to be bit excessive. How much is too much?

Best,
Christopher


I bought a saw that sat for many months. The belt had taken the shape of
the pulleys... it had a memory kink, if you will. It has a heavy
vibration at slow down, which I suspect is caused by the kinks in the belt.

Once I replece the belt with a new, round one, or one of those "link"
belts, I bet it runs smooth as butta.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Christopher Glaeser" wrote in message
...
check the tension or how
much the belt deflects when firmly pressed with one finger--you can
actually measure this accurately using a cricket guage.

What is the recommended delfection tolerance?

If a saw is stored for extended periods of time, should the belt be
removed to avoid uneven stretching?

Best,
Christopher



Typically a contractors saw belt thightness is not measured in deflection
because the weight of the motor provides the tension. As the belts
stretches or shrinks the tension is going to be different.
Industrial belts, the type normally used on this type saw are pretty bad
about taking a set and creating vibration.

To remedy this situation either up grade the belt to an "automotive" belt
which is designed to fun at much faster rpm's with much less vibration or go
with a link belt. The link belt is going to be considerable more expensive
but will work the best.

As far as the automotive belt is concerned you want one that has the notches
on the inner side of the belt. The notches run from side to side. The
notches permit the belt to bend around a tighter/smaller radius pulley.

Don't confuse this with the serpintine automitice belts that have 8-10
groves on the inside perimeter of the belt.

Once I replece the belt with a new, round one, or one of those "link"
belts, I bet it runs smooth as butta.

Yeah, I think I'll do that. I don't use it much and it sits for long
periods, so I'm guessing it has a memory kink. Thanks!

Best,
Christopher

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
Once I replece the belt with a new, round one, or one of those "link"
belts, I bet it runs smooth as butta.

Yeah, I think I'll do that. I don't use it much and it sits for long
periods, so I'm guessing it has a memory kink. Thanks!
....

I hear folks claim that but I've never seen it in 40 years or so--once a
tool runs for a few minutes at most any belt I've ever had has had no
apparent belt "memory kink".

Go to the Gates Rubber or other major belt manufactuer's site for
tips/guidelins on v-belt tensioning/applications. I also personally
don't think there's any significant difference between an "industrial"
belt as opposed to "automotive" for small-sized belts (4L, typically) as
used on woodworking equipment. Electric motor rpm of 3450 vs 2-3000
typical cruise rpm for automotive applications is pretty much
overlapping. Somewhat higher torque loadings, but most belt spec's far
exceed those anyway.

I suppose _perhaps_ some of the more recent Chiwanese stuff may use some
really inexpensive belt that has some of these problems but certainly
everything I've ever had it's never been an issue.

I'd look at whether the pulleys are truly concentric machined pulleys or
cheap cast-zinc hardware store varieties, whether they're really tight
on the shafts (motor and driven) and aligned properly as primary culprits.

If it is a saw w/ more than a single drive belt, be sure to get matched
pairs/triplets depending on number required. These days Gates adds a
suffix number at the time of manufacture that indicates those that are
within a specified tolerance instead of the old "hunt and measure" days
or buying actual sets.

$0.02, imo, etc., etc., ...

--

dpb wrote:
Christopher Glaeser wrote:
Once I replece the belt with a new, round one, or one of those "link"
belts, I bet it runs smooth as butta.

Yeah, I think I'll do that. I don't use it much and it sits for long
periods, so I'm guessing it has a memory kink. Thanks!
...

I hear folks claim that but I've never seen it in 40 years or so--once a
tool runs for a few minutes at most any belt I've ever had has had no
apparent belt "memory kink".


Mine must be a pretty cheap belt. I marked the kinks, and they are
still in it, after running the saw many times.

I'm not saying it *is* the issue, just saying it's something to check
out before you go taking the saw apart.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I'm not saying it *is* the issue, just saying it's something to check out
before you go taking the saw apart.

I have not yet had a chance to pick up a new belt, but I did remove the old
belt for inspection. Major kinks from the two pulleys, apparently due to
sitting idle for long periods with little use. Thanks again for the
assistance.

Best,
Christopher

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
....
I have not yet had a chance to pick up a new belt, but I did remove the old
belt for inspection. Major kinks from the two pulleys, apparently due to
sitting idle for long periods with little use. ...

OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The PM-66 is 30 or so and has never had a new set and certainly has sat
far more in those years than run and there's certainly no indication of
any problem w/ them. Same w/ jointer, bandsaw, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The belt is CAT NO 49-034.

I purchased this Delta about ten years ago and is rarely used. In hind
sight, if I had removed the belt when not in use, I expect it would be
running just fine. There are no visible signs of age or wear, just two
strong kinks. I'll confirm when I pick up a new belt (which will be removed
when not in use).

Best,
Christopher

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The belt is CAT NO 49-034.

I purchased this Delta about ten years ago and is rarely used. In hind
sight, if I had removed the belt when not in use, I expect it would be
running just fine. There are no visible signs of age or wear, just two
strong kinks....

I still dunno'....one would think 30 years would have done it if were
going to do so. I just don't see the same problem.

Go figure...

--

dpb wrote:
Christopher Glaeser wrote:
...
I have not yet had a chance to pick up a new belt, but I did remove
the old belt for inspection. Major kinks from the two pulleys,
apparently due to sitting idle for long periods with little use. ...

OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The PM-66 is 30 or so and has never had a new set and certainly has sat
far more in those years than run and there's certainly no indication of
any problem w/ them. Same w/ jointer, bandsaw, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

I think it certainly could have something to do the with
manufacture/material of different belts and their intended purpose.

Someone else mention automotive belts being designed for tighter turns
and faster speeds.

Just thinking out loud here, but I could see a belt that is reinforced
with steel being more prone to developing kinks than one reinforced with
fiberglass, for example.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The belt is CAT NO 49-034.

I purchased this Delta about ten years ago and is rarely used. In hind
sight, if I had removed the belt when not in use, I expect it would be
running just fine. There are no visible signs of age or wear, just two
strong kinks. I'll confirm when I pick up a new belt (which will be removed
when not in use).

Best,
Christopher


Yes, please report back with the results.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
dpb wrote:
Christopher Glaeser wrote:
...
I have not yet had a chance to pick up a new belt, but I did remove
the old belt for inspection. Major kinks from the two pulleys,
apparently due to sitting idle for long periods with little use. ...

OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on
that puppy?

The PM-66 is 30 or so and has never had a new set and certainly has
sat far more in those years than run and there's certainly no
indication of any problem w/ them. Same w/ jointer, bandsaw, etc.,
etc., etc., ...

--

I think it certainly could have something to do the with
manufacture/material of different belts and their intended purpose.

Someone else mention automotive belts being designed for tighter turns
and faster speeds.

Just thinking out loud here, but I could see a belt that is reinforced
with steel being more prone to developing kinks than one reinforced with
fiberglass, for example.

I'm a believer in Gates which is, afaiaa(ware) what everything in the
shop is (as is most everything on everything from the passenger cars to
the largest tractors/combine/field equipment (JD-branded stuff is also
afaik). Replacements for shop stuff are replacement-sized at NAPA which
carries Gates as well as store brand (which I don't know what theirs is;
I tend to pay the extra dollar there altho tend to use housebrand for
most anything else--seems as good as any other).

I don't know who Delta or others use; it could be a problem there of
trying to hold down cost too much, perhaps. I also don't have a piece
of ww'ing stationary equipment that's much under 30, either... In
fact, thinking, the Model 66 is the last new piece I have--the more
recently acquired shaper is an old Walker-Turner from an ODU cabinet
shop auction and the big jointer I found at a TVA surplus sale (held at
a TN nuclear site but they had hauled stuff in from all over the TVA
system plus a lot of other federal sites including a bunch of military
shops) is unknown vintage but has to be WW-II era at newest. It does
have lubricated bearings (not sealed, but not poured, either, so isn't
truly ancient).

--


--

On Nov 5, 2:41*pm, "Christopher Glaeser" wrote:
How much vibration is normal in the belt of a contractor saw? *The saw/belt
is about eight years old but has rarely been used. *The belt appears to be
in excellent condition, but the up/down vibration of the belt as it comes of
the pulley appears to be bit excessive. *How much is too much?

Best,
Christopher

Heed the advice given elsewhere in responses to your question and
invest in a link belt. It makes a world of difference - less
vibration, less noise, better cut (IMHO). HFT sells them and sent out
a 15% off coupon that makes them the best buy!

dpb wrote:
Christopher Glaeser wrote:
...
I have not yet had a chance to pick up a new belt, but I did remove
the old belt for inspection. Major kinks from the two pulleys,
apparently due to sitting idle for long periods with little use. ...

OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The PM-66 is 30 or so and has never had a new set and certainly has sat
far more in those years than run and there's certainly no indication of
any problem w/ them. Same w/ jointer, bandsaw, etc., etc., etc., ...

Ditto, except most of my belts are 50 or so years old. I put a new belt
on my jointer when I built a new cabinet for my Tsaw/Jointer and needed
a different length belt. I went to an auto parts store for a fan belt
and when he asked what car it was for, and I told him, he said I needed
a machine rated belt, and sold me a bit heavier belt? I wasn't too
concerned. The new belt certainly was stiffer than all my old belts.
They tend to loosen up bit after billions of revolutions....

--
Jack
Got Change: General Motors ===== Government Motors!
http://jbstein.com

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:19:12 -0600, the infamous dpb
scrawled the following:

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
OK, ya' got me curious...can you find a vendor/manufacturer name on that
puppy?

The belt is CAT NO 49-034.

I purchased this Delta about ten years ago and is rarely used. In hind
sight, if I had removed the belt when not in use, I expect it would be
running just fine. There are no visible signs of age or wear, just two
strong kinks....

I still dunno'....one would think 30 years would have done it if were
going to do so. I just don't see the same problem.

Go figure...

Do an experiment. Gauge the vibrations from one of your current
machines which uses belts. Now put on a link belt. I'll bet the
vibration level is lower with the link belt on it.

--
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of
ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Larry Jaques wrote:
....
Do an experiment. Gauge the vibrations from one of your current
machines which uses belts. Now put on a link belt. I'll bet the
vibration level is lower with the link belt on it.
....

I've have seen 'em tried on quality sheaves and heavy gear and I'm sure
it won't make enough difference on anything I have to make it worth the
time (and especially the expense; they're d-d proud of those puppies
from what I've seen.

If one has a lightweight contractor saw w/ the pot metal cast
out-of-true pulleys or the like, perhaps it'll cover up/mask some of the
inherent problems.

--

Yes, please report back with the results.

I replaced the original kinked belt with a new v-link. The blade now sings.
Sweeter than pie. Thanks.

Best,
Christopher

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
Yes, please report back with the results.

I replaced the original kinked belt with a new v-link. The blade now sings.
Sweeter than pie. Thanks.

Best,
Christopher


Hate to say I told you so, but..... no wait a sec.
In this case, love to say I told you so. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Is it OK to run the motor without belt or load to test the balance of the
motor and pulley?

Best,
Christopher

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:59:05 -0800, "Christopher Glaeser"
wrote:

Is it OK to run the motor without belt or load to test the balance of the
motor and pulley?

Table saw motors are designed to run with a load on them. I'd say that
it changes the mechanics of the situation. You might even damage the
motor. It's the balance of the motor and pulley running together that
you should be concerned with.

Christopher Glaeser wrote:
Is it OK to run the motor without belt or load to test the balance of the
motor and pulley?

Best,
Christopher


Yes. That's a good way to rule out some sort of motor mount problem.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

wrote:
You might even damage the
motor.

Where did you hear this?
I don't think it's a problem.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:59:05 -0800, "Christopher Glaeser"
wrote:

Is it OK to run the motor without belt or load to test the balance of the
motor and pulley?

Table saws (real ones anyway use induction motors. Unloaded
they'll spin only a few RPM faster than a loaded motor so it's not
going to hurt a thing to run it unloaded. The motor doesn't require
the load for cooling (as a fan might) so heat isn't an issue either.
Go for it.

Table saws (real ones anyway use induction motors. Unloaded
they'll spin only a few RPM faster than a loaded motor so it's not
going to hurt a thing to run it unloaded. The motor doesn't require
the load for cooling (as a fan might) so heat isn't an issue either.
Go for it.

Thanks. It's running smooth with the new belt, but was curious to observe
without the belt.

Best,
Christopher

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:28:16 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You might even damage the
motor.

Where did you hear this?
I don't think it's a problem.

I didn't hear it anywhere and could well be wrong about it. However,
tablesaw motors are built to run with saw blades being driven by them
putting a load on the motor. It seems sensible that's the optimum
condition for them to be running when you're looking to correct any
issues. And yes, I have seen and experience a motor that turns and
builds speed fine, but stalls when the belt is connected.

You can confirm a car motor runs fine at idle, but I'd prefer my car
to be passed under test conditions when the car is actually moving or
perhaps on a dynometer when the motor is under stress. Again, that's
what seems logical.

wrote:
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:28:16 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You might even damage the
motor.
Where did you hear this?
I don't think it's a problem.

I didn't hear it anywhere and could well be wrong about it. However,
tablesaw motors are built to run with saw blades being driven by them
putting a load on the motor. It seems sensible that's the optimum
condition for them to be running when you're looking to correct any
issues. And yes, I have seen and experience a motor that turns and
builds speed fine, but stalls when the belt is connected.

You can confirm a car motor runs fine at idle, but I'd prefer my car
to be passed under test conditions when the car is actually moving or
perhaps on a dynometer when the motor is under stress. Again, that's
what seems logical.

I didn't question about any of that, which is why I cut it out of my reply.

You said it might damage the motor.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think it would.
That's why I asked for more info.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:05:09 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You said it might damage the motor.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think it would.
That's why I asked for more info.

Sure, you could be entirely right. No argument there. My knowledge of
electric motors doesn't extend to whether they might have governors
for speed or the bearings might be subject to suffering from too much
heat that might be generated from a motor running without load.

It's not my motor, so unless someone asked me specifically to find out
and that person was a friend, then I'm not going to spend what might
take me considerable time to find out. Guess that's a little selfish,
but if I acceded to all similar requests, I'd never get anything done
for myself.

Makes me think of the guy who has been asked to shorten a metal
exterior door. Much of my decision for a job like that, (if I felt I
was capable of doing it) would revolve around my relationship with the
person who asked me. Unfortunately, there's any number of people,
(friends can sometimes fall into that category too) who will take
advantage of you every chance they can. For me anyway, close friends
fall into the opposite category and treat me well despite my flaws and
weaknesses.

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:51:42 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:25:06 -0500, the infamous
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:28:16 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

You might even damage the
motor.

Where did you hear this?
I don't think it's a problem.

I didn't hear it anywhere and could well be wrong about it. However,
tablesaw motors are built to run with saw blades being driven by them
putting a load on the motor. It seems sensible that's the optimum
condition for them to be running when you're looking to correct any
issues. And yes, I have seen and experience a motor that turns and
builds speed fine, but stalls when the belt is connected.

Optimal, yes. What is there on a normal motor to destroy? The RPM is
self-limiting by design, with 1,725 and 3,450 being the 2 norms.

The unloaded limit would be the synchronous speed (1800 or 3600). An
induction motor can't turn faster than the AC line feeding it. When
loaded fully the motor "slips" to 1725/3450, or whatever is on its
plate.

And what makes you think that they would run any slower (more than 1
percent?) with the blade and belt attached?

Note that a saw turning a blade is not fully loaded. In fact it takes
very little power to just turn the blade. Hogging out a 3/4" wide 2"
deep dado in Oak takes a little more.

Steam and internal combustion engines are the only power plants which
really need loads (flywheels, etc.) AFAIK.

The flywheel, in this case, is only needed to force rotation to the
next cycle, not as a governor. That is, to maintain rotation not to
maintain integrity. ;-) A steam (or nuke) power plant and turbine
generator are better examples.

You can confirm a car motor runs fine at idle, but I'd prefer my car
to be passed under test conditions when the car is actually moving or
perhaps on a dynometer when the motor is under stress. Again, that's
what seems logical.

There's a whole lot more moving mass changing directions in an auto
engine, suh.

A car has a whole lot wider RPM range than a table saw, too.

On 2009-11-08, -MIKE- wrote:

You said it might damage the motor.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think it would.
That's why I asked for more info.

That could be the case if the motor was "series wound" as without a
load they can just keep getting faster and faster. I don't think any
power tools would be purely series wound.

Scatter wrote:
On 2009-11-08, -MIKE- wrote:
You said it might damage the motor.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think it would.
That's why I asked for more info.

That could be the case if the motor was "series wound" as without a
load they can just keep getting faster and faster. I don't think any
power tools would be purely series wound.

Series wound. Does that mean what I think it means?
As opposed to parallel wound? Or something totally different?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:59:01 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

Scatter wrote:
On 2009-11-08, -MIKE- wrote:
You said it might damage the motor.
I can't say for certain, but I don't think it would.
That's why I asked for more info.

That could be the case if the motor was "series wound" as without a
load they can just keep getting faster and faster. I don't think any
power tools would be purely series wound.

Series wound. Does that mean what I think it means?

It means that the armature and field are wired in series.

As opposed to parallel wound? Or something totally different?

As opposed to shunt wound.

Motor characteristics:
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/motorchar.htm

krw wrote:
Series wound. Does that mean what I think it means?

It means that the armature and field are wired in series.

As opposed to parallel wound? Or something totally different?

As opposed to shunt wound.

Motor characteristics:
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/motorchar.htm


Cool info. Thanks.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2009-11-22, krw wrote:
As opposed to shunt wound.

Correct, and I forgot to say that it would only apply to DC or
universal motors - ones with brushes. Perhaps angle grinders are
series wound - I really don't know though (they're probably compound
wound instead - sort of a combination of both series and shunt).