"Tony Sivori" wrote:

I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim
painter.
Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.


You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including
me, have faced.

You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
whose finish doesn't owe you anything.

Consider your options.

1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish
first.

It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.

2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.

Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed
out, dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not
inexpensive process.

3) You can do a "refacing" job.

Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with
MDF core, laminated.doors.

Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.

The hardware may or may not need replacement.

Fastest way to get the job done.

Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
kitchen.

4) You could replace cabinets with new.

It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.

I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.

YMMV

Depends on how long you plan to remain.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Tony Sivori" wrote:

I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim painter.
Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.


You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including me,
have faced.

You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
whose finish doesn't owe you anything.

Consider your options.

1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish first.

It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.


My dad took each of his cabinet doors down, glued on some ornamental trim
(so it looked sort of like it
had a "panel"--using door terminology) and used a 2-part antique finish
(brush on
one, and apply the other on with a wad of newspaper or something). The
first coat was a dark olive.
It looked pretty good during the 1970s. Probably out of style now, but it
didn't look like crap--it looked
more like he saved several thousand dollars. Maybe there is a variation
which would be acceptable today,
maybe not?

Bill



2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.

Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed out,
dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not inexpensive
process.

3) You can do a "refacing" job.

Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with MDF
core, laminated.doors.

Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.

The hardware may or may not need replacement.

Fastest way to get the job done.

Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
kitchen.

4) You could replace cabinets with new.

It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.

I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.

YMMV

Depends on how long you plan to remain.

Lew

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:56:52 -0400, Tony Sivori
wrote:

I'm new to woodworking, so even this simple project is big to me.
Especially refinishing all the doors.

But I'm more than willing to try to learn a new skill to save the money of
replacing them.

I'd take one of those cabinet doors with me to the lumber retailer so
as to get the best match.

On Nov 1, 1:36*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Tony Sivori" wrote:
I've considered that, and I am a fairly skilled house and trim
painter.
Unfortunately I don't like painted kitchen cabinets.

You are about to go down a slippery slope many before you, including
me, have faced.

You have a kitchen whose cabinets have collected 50+ years of crap and
whose finish doesn't owe you anything.

Consider your options.

1) You can try to apply a finish without cleaning the old finish
first.

It will look like crap, but it will be cheap.

2) You can strip the old finish back to bare wood and refinish.

Only problem is it will be time consuming, and as others have pointed
out, dealing with chemical strippers will be a very nasty, and not
inexpensive process.

3) You can do a "refacing" job.

Remove all doors and use the wood to make shop jigs, replacing with
MDF core, laminated.doors.

Scrape the face frames down to bare wood and reface with laminate.

The hardware may or may not need replacement.

Fastest way to get the job done.

Lower cost than new cabinets, but you have to be happy with a laminate
kitchen.

4) You could replace cabinets with new.

It will be the most expensive, but maybe it is worth it.

I chose 3 more than 30 years ago and didn't regret it.

YMMV

Depends on how long you plan to remain.

Lew

# 4 is the most disruptive as you also start messing with countertops
and plumbing. A much more ambitious, and as you pointed out, expensive
route to take.

# 3 is probably the most rewarding. Not too disruptive to daily life.
You have all the dimensions of all the doors, so ordering from a
variety of sources would be no problem. Cutting up a couple of 4x8
sheets of quality ply and taping the edges of the doors with veneer/
thermal tape is almost fun. Taping won't be needed if you use Baltic
Birch multi-ply as those edges are quite decorative as they are.
The cabinet frames... Lew suggested laminate.. that's a lot of work
and you got to know what you're doing. Not a simple job.
I would sand and paint the frames, after I plugged the hinge holes.
(unless you're sure you can get fresh hinges with the same hole-
spacing.) If the frames sand nicely and clean, maybe just a couple of
coats of Polyshades.

Now let's see...what are the potential tool-buying plusses??? A Fein
Multimaster? One of those super cool mini Porter Cable belt sanders?
You really should spray the doors...... but a deft hand...(get
it..DEFT) at brushing might work for you. Lightly sand between coats
with a sponge....Outdoors...the stuff is stinky.

One job I saw done, the face of the door was natural maple veneer. The
door edges painted in a medium brown polyshade and the frames of the
cabinets a shade darker than the door edges. A nice 3-dimensional look
to the job.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/31/2009 7:43 PM Robatoy spake thus:

On Oct 31, 10:50 pm, Tony Sivori wrote:

Steve Turner wrote:

Question: If you pick a small inconspicuous spot and saturate the
finish with denatured alcohol, does it dissolve? If yes, then it's
shellac you're dealing with, and that would be helpful information if
you're going to attempt to match the existing finish.

91% rubbing alcohol did not remove the finish or the shine. The white
towel I used to apply it did turn yellowish.

Then try lacquer thinner. Let me know what happens then.

Yes, much more likely than shellac. Believe me, nobody has used shellac
to finish kitchen cabinets in the last 50 years.

I don't believe you. :-) Mainly because I've seen plenty of examples
myself.

The finish is one of two things: varnish (oil-based) or lacquer. The
suggestion to try lacquer thinner (in an inconspicuous spot) is a good
one. If that doesn't soften the finish, then it's varnish.

Not necessarily true. Lacquer thinner won't touch shellac either, hence
my suggestion to start with denatured alcohol. And there are really at
least three possibilities here, not just two (more if you count those
fancy catalyzed products, but I'll leave those out because I have no
experience with them). Alcohol dissolves shellac, but won't touch
either lacquer, alkyd (oil) varnishes, or polyurethane. Lacquer thinner
will attack plenty of other finishes, not just lacquer. If the finish
*dissolves* then it's likely (but not necessarily) lacquer; but if it
destroys it (not sure of the right word here; "congeals" comes to mind)
it's likely something else. Most polyurethanes are resistant to lacquer
thinner, but alkyd based varnishes (such as Behlen's "Rock Hard Table
Top Varnish) are not. Mineral spirits (or most standard "paint
thinners") aren't really useful for determining the nature of a cured
finish, because won't dissolve any of those aforementioned.

If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.

Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a lacquer
base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code for
polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably sanded
then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.

It's really the applying of lacquer over an alkyd base that you want to
avoid. The solvents in the lacquer will attack and curdle cured alkyd
resins.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Nov 1, 4:53*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:


By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.

Hasn't happened in a production setting, that I know of, since 1976.
Sanding sealers are lacquer based. I don't know anybody who has ever
used shellac in a production set-up.
Topcoats have been cat-lacquers for decades.

BUT!

I have run into all kinds of shellac in site-built kitchens.

On 11/1/2009 10:20 AM Steve Turner spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use polyurethane
over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate coat.

Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a lacquer
base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code for
polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably sanded
then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.

I say this from experience: a while back I applied a topcoat of finish
to some friends' dining room table. I used oil-based (alkyd) varnish,
assuming (foolishly as it turned out) that the finish was varnish.

WRONG. It was lacquer, and the result was that the varnish simple beaded
up and formed ugly rivulets on the surface. I quickly sopped it all
up, got a can of brushing lacquer and used that instead.

You really cannot apply varnish over lacquer. Don't believe me? try it
sometime.

By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On 11/1/2009 1:02 PM Robatoy spake thus:

On Nov 1, 4:53 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.

Hasn't happened in a production setting, that I know of, since 1976.
Sanding sealers are lacquer based. I don't know anybody who has ever
used shellac in a production set-up.
Topcoats have been cat-lacquers for decades.

BUT!

I have run into all kinds of shellac in site-built kitchens.

As a topcoat? I'm surprised. But I'll take your word for it.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

Birch plywood from the 70s' or 80's with one of
about a million different stains.

Tony Sivori wrote:
Is this Maple, Oak, or something else?

http://picasaweb.google.com/TonySivo...85401940746434

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:09:35 -0500, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Robatoy wrote:
The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.
True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
how it's cut.
I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)

I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
cheap.
Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
with my eyes.
One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.

Weird about the purple.
I second everything you said about Poplar.

Tell the guy with purple hands to do a whole body cleanse. He's
probably picking up the tanning and the ammonia coming out of his
pores is turning him purple. He needs to _detox_!


The runny nose thing... I was referring to the green streaks.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Oct 31, 12:50 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
The poplar thing I mentioned is because I have seen poplar do some
birchy things, in grain and color. Not likely that it is poplar.

True. Poplar can be the cameleon of woods, depending on from where and
how it's cut.
I never can seem to get a piece without a runny nose. :-)

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I use a lot of poplar. It machines beautifully, paints beautifully in
the pigment of your imagination and is dimensionally very stable and
cheap.
Never had any nose issues with it, unlike teak and such. Padauk messes
with my eyes.
One of my guys' hands turn purple when he touches/sands oak.

After a day of handling green oak around the mill, the guys
hands will be almost black, most use lemon juice to bleach
their hands back to a normal color.

basilisk

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/1/2009 10:20 AM Steve Turner spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

If it's lacquer, you will definitely *not* be able to use
polyurethane over it, at least not without some kind of intermediate
coat.

Why do you say that? There are plenty of lacquer based sealers out
there, and nothing in a standard polyurethane finish (at least those
thinned with mineral spirits) is going to attack a finish with a
lacquer base. It's not as good as shellac as a sealer or base code
for polyurethane (in my opinion), but as long as it's been suitably
sanded then polyurethane sticks to it just fine.

I say this from experience: a while back I applied a topcoat of finish
to some friends' dining room table. I used oil-based (alkyd) varnish,
assuming (foolishly as it turned out) that the finish was varnish.

WRONG. It was lacquer, and the result was that the varnish simple beaded
up and formed ugly rivulets on the surface. I quickly sopped it all up,
got a can of brushing lacquer and used that instead.

I certainly don't doubt your experience, but yours differs from mine so
at some level we must be talking apples and oranges. You don't describe
exactly what product you were using, or what information you have that
led you to believe the base coat was lacquer and not something else, so
I don't know what to make of what you've told me.

You really cannot apply varnish over lacquer. Don't believe me? try it
sometime.

I wouldn't have been making my original claims without already having
done that (plenty of times), but I went ahead and did it again just to
make sure I'm not yet getting senile.

I took a nice smooth piece of scrap walnut (bare, no existing finish)
and sprayed it with about 8 or 10 coats of standard (Deft)
nitrocellulose lacquer (three heavy coats, wait until dry, repeated two
more times), let it cure for a week, then sanded it smooth with 320 grit
until there was no gloss (you did do that on your friend's table,
right?). I then applied a single nice wet coat of Behlen's Rockhard
Table Top Varnish and let it dry. Perfection.

How the Behlen's product compares in composition to what you were using
I have no idea. They don't list the ingredients on the can, but they
claim it's a 'quality phenolic resin "short" oil varnish'. I've also
seen it described as being alkyd based, and its behavior is consistent
(in my experience) with other varnishes that I know to be alkyd based.

By the way, I challenge you to show us how there's anything resembling a
significant use of shellac as a finish for things like kitchen cabinetry
within the last 50 years. Sure, lots of manufacturers may use it as a
sealer, but certainly not as a topcoat.

My experience here is the same as what Robatoy already described in his
response.

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/