On Oct 8, 4:39*pm, John wrote:
On Oct 8, 7:53*am, Robatoy wrote:





On Oct 8, 3:28*am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:

"Bill" wrote

Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the population of
this forum.

I think that an engineer's mindset is essential but a touch of artistry is
desirable.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net

The vision of an artist plus the discipline and learned foundation of
an engineer, makes for a Bauhaus full of stuff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think that you can be neither and still be a woodworker -- if the
only things you make are from premade plans, then you aren't doing any
design, and thus it's not engineering, and you aren't doing anything
overly creative, so it's not really art. *If, on the other hand you do
your own designs, and the design is both functional and asthetically
pleasing, then you are an artist and an engineer.

Seeing as most woodworkers make custom stuff, I would say most are
both.

John

I agree. The Come Up With Stuff and Make Stuff Work are, at some
level, what makes a woodworker.

On Oct 8, 4:34*pm, charlieb wrote:
For a rule to be a good rule - it has to have
at least one exception. *Kelly Johnson, who
used Seymore Butts on his secret missions
airline tickets, is suely an exception to the rules.
Anyone whose job is in The Skunk Works HAS
to be an exception - to probably EVERY rule.

Because many are aliens. Roswell offspring.

dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:
Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
population of this forum.

I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
others groove on the result. I like the result.
_____________

More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
and drafting.

A. Something simple = no plans

B. Something more complex = "plans"
1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
2. Get yellow legal pad
3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
5. Cut parts
6. Join parts

As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in the
hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short learning
curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is a good
description. Many of us have found that we can replace your step 2 above
with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to scale" part. Where the
pencil was once suitably facile at doodling, I find now that it fails by
echoing too closely my faulty imagination and distorted sense of
proportions. (At the same time, "compellingly simple" quickly becomes
"frustratingly simplistic" when you start to wander far from the blocky
shapes that works so well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would
undertake to build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:
Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
population of this forum.

I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
others groove on the result. I like the result.
_____________

More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
and drafting.

A. Something simple = no plans

B. Something more complex = "plans"
1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
2. Get yellow legal pad
3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
5. Cut parts
6. Join parts

As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in the
hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short learning
curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is a good
description. Many of us have found that we can replace your step 2 above
with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to scale" part. Where the
pencil was once suitably facile at doodling, I find now that it fails by
echoing too closely my faulty imagination and distorted sense of
proportions. (At the same time, "compellingly simple" quickly becomes
"frustratingly simplistic" when you start to wander far from the blocky
shapes that works so well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would
undertake to build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)


I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help but
think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
design.
Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients? That
is,
may the likes of SketchUp induce a subtle affect much like that of
industrialization?
Just a thought.

Bill

Bill wrote:
"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...
dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:
Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
population of this forum.

I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning,
others groove on the result. I like the result.
_____________

More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be
drawing and drafting.

A. Something simple = no plans

B. Something more complex = "plans"
1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
2. Get yellow legal pad
3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
5. Cut parts
6. Join parts

As craftsmen, we all know that the best tools fit well and easily in
the hand. Sketchup is in this category. After a surprisingly short
learning curve, the tool becomes transparent. Compellingly simple is
a good description. Many of us have found that we can replace your
step 2 above with "Start SketchUp", and also delete the "not to
scale" part. Where the pencil was once suitably facile at doodling,
I find now that it fails by echoing too closely my faulty
imagination and distorted sense of proportions. (At the same time,
"compellingly simple" quickly becomes "frustratingly simplistic"
when you start to wander far from the blocky shapes that works so
well. Which is just as welll. Much of what I would undertake to
build in the woodshop are of blocky shapes.)

I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't
help but think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did
to furniture design.
Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients? That
is,
may the likes of SketchUp induce a subtle affect much like that of
industrialization?
Just a thought.

There's little danger, IMHO, that your taste in design will suddenly change
to match the tool. If that turns out to be the case, however, you will have
answered your own question: the engineer will accept the limitations of his
tools and environment while the artist will hold true to the ideal and its
exprssion. I was cutting 4-square blocky shapes on the tablesaw, planer, and
jointer long before Sketchup imposed its blocky world. If your taste is
toward free flowing faired curves inspired by and gracefully echoing the
figure and grain of carefully selected timbers, I doubt any design tool can
replace the touchy-feely eyeballs- and hands-on approach. Sketchup or other
CAD can still be the better pencil by overlaying a photo of the grain on the
part, but I would be very surprised to find that person comfortable with an
elaborate design process. I think that's the short answer: Sketchup appeals
to the engineer within. We are satisfied with the design when the
artist-within cringes only minimally at the outcome.

The common aesthetic of furniture and furnishings is dominated by straight
lines. I don't find this to be at odds with an artistic bent. Efficient and
appropriate use of material is itself an art.

Bill wrote:

I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help but
think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
design.
Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients?

As with any tool, only to the neophyte.

"Tools" certainly do influence the outcome of specific tasks, and
therefore influence the collection of tasks that make up a piece.
"Materials" do the same, arguably to an even greater extent.

That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
example.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I'm learning SketchUp this week and am impressed. However, I can't help
but
think about what industrialization (and manufacturing) did to furniture
design.
Is SketchUp users going to encourage "blocky shapes" on its clients?

As with any tool, only to the neophyte.

"Tools" certainly do influence the outcome of specific tasks, and
therefore influence the collection of tasks that make up a piece.
"Materials" do the same, arguably to an even greater extent.

That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
example.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )

diggerop wrote:

He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )

Who do you think Google bought out to get it!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message
. au...
"Swingman" wrote in message
an even greater extent.

That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
example.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)


He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )

Few people really know that.

On Oct 11, 12:32*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message

. au... "Swingman" wrote in message

an even greater extent.



That said, it is the artistry with which both are wielded that takes a
project out of the ordinary ... take a look at some Michelangelo for an
example.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

He did that with SketchUp? * *Wow! * * *; )

Few people really know that.

then there is that DaVinci/Mona Lisa/Photoshop rumour..

"Swingman"wrote

diggerop wrote:

He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )

Who do you think Google bought out to get it!
--
And once again, history is rewritten...

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Swingman"wrote

diggerop wrote:

He did that with SketchUp? Wow! ; )

Who do you think Google bought out to get it!
--
And once again, history is rewritten...

That would be some headline--"Google buys Vatican".

Pssssssst.
(you do know that The CABAL monitors this forum right?)

Gotta run - I think I'm being followed.

[choking sound]

[user connection lost]

..
..
..

charlieb wrote:
Pssssssst.
(you do know that The CABAL monitors this forum right?)

Gotta run - I think I'm being followed.

[choking sound]

[user connection lost]

..
..
..

There is no cabal!

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:13:18 -0500, the infamous Swingman
scrawled the following:

Bill wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

Basically for wood working this is going to be the easiest and most
competent program to design your projects.


Way cool program.

I posted my first result with SketchUp at
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking, as Subject: First SketchUp (pdf file),
in case anyone wants to see what you can do with it in an hour or so...

I have a LOT to learn, but the potential is evident...

Bill wrote:
pdf attached

also posted on abpw

Excellent first effort ... take to heart what Leon said on the wRec
about making component parts ... the secret to using SU effectively for
woodworking projects.

With regard to whether your proclivity is "artist" or "engineer",
oftentimes you have no choice.

Attached is a pdf of the SketchUp file I did last year during the
planning stages of the South wall of a kitchen, and a photo of that
recently finished South wall, 8 months later.

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.pdf
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/southwall.jpg

Cool. Question: Is there lighting above the hutch and oven cabinets?
Else why is there a gap there. It looks really odd to me.

Ever wish you'd gone with fumed QS white oak instead? That's the
kitchen which would make me drool. It's only "very nice" as is.


A good illustration of what you can do with the free program,
particularly when you have a client involved in the design and they
actually end up getting what they saw during the planning stage.

Makes for a happy client, and good referrals ....

Indeed. Nice segue to reality there, pard.

--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:12:57 -0700, the infamous charlieb
scrawled the following:

If you make things that work - and don't worry about
what it looks like - you're probably an engineer.

If you make things that look pleasing to the eye
or hand - but it doesn't actually "do" anything
- you're probably and artist.

If you THINK you make things that work
and
THINK you make things that are pleasing
to the eye
neither of which may actually be true
- you're probably an architect.

Fortunately, somewhere, there's a craftsman
who can add or fix what each of the others
overlooked - or ignored.

Two Master Pointes, charlie. giggle

--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:03:02 -0400, the infamous "dadiOH"
scrawled the following:

Bill wrote:
Are most woodworkers artists or engineers, or neither, or both?
For the sake of narrowing the field, feel free to assume the
population of this forum.

I think there is a mix. Numerous like the "doing" and planning, others
groove on the result. I like the result.

I'm a little of both, with no formal training in either, 'less you
count the architectural drawing class I had in 8th grade.


More than ever, I keep getting inclinations that I should be drawing
and drafting.

A. Something simple = no plans

B. Something more complex = "plans"
1. Get a mental picture of desired result.
2. Get yellow legal pad
3. Doodle the parts, not to scale, and dimension same
4. Doodle as necessary how the parts will attach to each other
5. Cut parts
6. Join parts

Ooh, Ooh! waving hands That's me, too!


--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:35:10 -0700, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
scrawled the following:

Robatoy wrote:

I can't speak for 'most' woodworkers, but I seldom do anything
without
making a drawing first.

I have been accused of not being able to find the bathroom without a
blueprint.

A bit obsessive about it, are we, Lew?

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)