The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...6,2.27417&z=10

and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote:


Wish us luck!

You are covered.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

You are covered.

Thanks! Encouragement can be a powerful force, and I'll pass it along.
I've been tickled with where and by whom the work is being done. Team
Pakistan was a small group of engineering students who sometimes worked
to the sound of nearby gunfire, Team Sudan is headed by a Brit physicist
who, with his MD wife, decided that they could make [and, in fact, are
making] the world a better place by taking what they knew and sharing it
with the folks of the Sudan. I got an e-mail Friday from Park Falls,
Kentucky - an eleventh grader who has her first fluidyne running and now
wants to pursue optimization - who (if parents and teachers approve)
will be the start of Team USA.

I'm tickled because, although some serious players (NASA, CERN, Harvard,
Sandia, Oak Ridge, Oxford, Cambridge,...) have been watching the web
site, they've not been contributors. The progress has /all/ come from
places and people who couldn't possibly have been predicted...

....and I'm loving every bit of it.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote in :

Lew Hodgett wrote:

You are covered.

Thanks! Encouragement can be a powerful force, and I'll pass it along.
I've been tickled with where and by whom the work is being done. Team
Pakistan was a small group of engineering students who sometimes
worked to the sound of nearby gunfire, Team Sudan is headed by a Brit
physicist who, with his MD wife, decided that they could make [and, in
fact, are making] the world a better place by taking what they knew
and sharing it with the folks of the Sudan. I got an e-mail Friday
from Park Falls, Kentucky - an eleventh grader who has her first
fluidyne running and now wants to pursue optimization - who (if
parents and teachers approve) will be the start of Team USA.

I'm tickled because, although some serious players (NASA, CERN,
Harvard, Sandia, Oak Ridge, Oxford, Cambridge,...) have been watching
the web site, they've not been contributors. The progress has /all/
come from places and people who couldn't possibly have been
predicted...

...and I'm loving every bit of it.

And so am I, Morris!

I am also impressed by the way the Heifer organisation
(heifer.org)provides aid to developing countries. Have you contacted
them by any chance? --
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:

I am also impressed by the way the Heifer organisation
(heifer.org)provides aid to developing countries. Have you contacted
them by any chance? --

I haven't. I suspect that future NGO involvement might be appropriate,
but none of what's happening now with this stuff involves any kind of
management or accounting structure, and the only accountability any of
the participants has is that of being true to the laws of physics and to
their own conscience.

All aid-providing organizations /must/ ensure that assets are used
responsibly, which imposes exactly those things which would be most
counter-productive at this stage. These folks do /not/ need
administrivial distraction.

What's needed right now is creative problem-solving of the /very/
highest order, and I don't think that can be bought for money.
Fortunately, while it can't be bought, it's already being given.

Later, when (as soon as) there's a version 1.01 of a proven well pump
with a known cost, /then/ may be the right time for NGO involvement.

So what /would/ help? I think the folks who're doing the work would
benefit most from exactly what I've gotten here - a healthy dosage of
affirmation and approval from those who happen to notice what they're doing.

That probably sounds pretty lame. It isn't.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote in :

The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following
my efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has
decided to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but
there's underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can
get a quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...1.789146,2.274
17&z=10

and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!


Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:

Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!

Thanks! I'll guess that your spelling is correct. Beside butchering
English, I can make myself misunderstood equally badly in French and
Portuguese - mas no hablo. Fortunately, the Argentine engineering
students seem to consider learning English an essential part of their
technical education, and that's made it easy for me.

( Hmm - I have a nephew who works at Rosetta Stone, I wonder if he can
get me a good deal on a Spanish course... )

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Oct 3, 9:25*pm, Han wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote :





The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following
my efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has
decided to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but
there's underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can
get a quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...1.789146,2.274
17&z=10

and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!

Go for it Morris, and good luck to the Argentinos (spelling?)!!

Argentines. And don't mistake them for Bolivians.

JP

On Oct 3, 8:21*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...n=1.789146,2.2....

and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Your cause is noble, you will succeed.

Robatoy wrote:

Your cause is noble, you will succeed.

Heh - not sure about noble causes, but it's fun! If it succeeds, it'll
be because the kids down there are all more qualified to bring this off
than I. It's always somehow reassuring for me to (re)discover that there
are smart people everywhere.

A 5m (about 16-1/2 feet) deep well should be a slam-dunk - but I'm
hoping that everyone involved learns enough that we can put our heads
together to design a 10m solution. /That/ probably won't be so easy, but
it's an important next step...

By the end of this year it looks like there'll be six teams spread over
five continents - a major improvement over one old duffer tinkering by
himself in a drafty aircraft hangar in the middle of nowhere.

Many hands make light work.

[ No apologies for the pun :-D ]

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...6,2.27417&z=10


and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!


You could do miracles with that in Africa.

Best of luck and kudos in the venture.

I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

You could do miracles with that in Africa.

Ooooh - I hope so! According to the UN, there are about a billion (a
thousand million) people with a /severe/ water supply problem. A lot
(but nowhere near all) of them are in Africa.

Best of luck and kudos in the venture.

Thanks. I'll pass those along to the folks who're doing the real work.

I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.

Alas! There's no profit in this project. All involved are unpaid
volunteers who've agreed to put everything learned about making these
things into the public domain. The goal is to come up with a design that
can be produced inexpensively everywhere by anyone with only simple tools.

There's no shortage of challenges, but as more people have become
involved, the pace of development has picked up considerably.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
I hope you make a ton of money and help a lot of people.

Alas! There's no profit in this project. All involved are unpaid
volunteers who've agreed to put everything learned about making these
things into the public domain. The goal is to come up with a design that
can be produced inexpensively everywhere by anyone with only simple tools.

There's no shortage of challenges, but as more people have become
involved, the pace of development has picked up considerably.


That's wonderful.

I'm involved with a couple organizations that provide aid and training
and other things to Africa.
One is called the "Mocha Club," because they focus on how much only $7
(two mochas) a month can do for families and communities.

For example...
* SUSTAIN life for 1 person living with AIDS.
* PROVIDE clean water to 7 Africans for 1 year.
* SAVE 1 person's life from malaria.

Amazing.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Morris Dovey wrote:
The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...6,2.27417&z=10


and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!


Go, Morris.

If you can keep the guvmint and politicos out of it (as the Crazy Horse
Memorial folks claim they have), things will probably work out.

You are a gift!

- Doug

Doug Winterburn wrote:

Go, Morris.



If you can keep the guvmint and politicos out of it (as the Crazy Horse
Memorial folks claim they have), things will probably work out.

I think the politicos will continue to watchfully ignore all of this,
since it isn't likely to produce campaign contributions - but may
provide something for which they can claim credit when the work is done.

You are a gift!

Heh - actually I've been more what Robatoy (in one of his more polished
moments) might call a paddlemaster - almost an /agent/ /provocateur/.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote in :

Heh - actually I've been more what Robatoy (in one of his more polished
moments) might call a paddlemaster - almost an /agent/ /provocateur/.

An agent provocateur isn't bad. As long as he gets people provoked to do
the /right/ thing. And you seem to be such a person!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Oct 3, 5:21*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
The only woodworking in this project is in the parabolic solar trough
that sucks up the heat, but for those wreckers who've been following my
efforts to use the best of hi-tech to produce ultra lo-tech solar
devices, this might be interesting...

A group in Mendoza, Argentina saw my fluidyne web pages and has decided
to give the solar pump a try. Mendoza Province is arid, but there's
underground run-off from the Andes at a depth of 5 m. You can get a
quick satellite view of the area at

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-32.9...n=1.789146,2.2....

and see the no-fuel, no-electricity pump design at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/...ng/5mPump.html

Wish us luck!

Best of luck in getting your designs recognized. This is truly great
stuff and it is people like you and your collaborators who will end up
saving ourselves from our current folly.

Luigi

Luigi

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Morris Dovey
wrote:

Wish us luck!

Wishing you a lot more than luck, Morris.

Thanks! The high level Google satellite view doesn't show conditions
very well (much too green) - you can get a better idea of what they're
dealing with by zooming down anywhere.

When the folks in Mendoza told me it was a big wine-producing area, I
took one look and quipped back that it looked about perfect for growing
raisins.

More than luck? Well, _water_ would be good. Methinks they need a few
apple and peach orchards; and if they have wine and apples, then they'll
need alfalfa to support cheese production...

....and, of course, they'll need to grow trees for the woodworkers. ;-

Plus - if we can get this thing working, there's a team already forming
in Khartoum who'll be able to put it to work immediately to expand the
arable area on either side of the Nile.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Morris Dovey
wrote:

Plus - if we can get this thing working, there's a team already forming
in Khartoum who'll be able to put it to work immediately to expand the
arable area on either side of the Nile.

That's freakin' awesome.

How can we contribute to the effort?

Wow, you caught me flat-footed on that one - but I can think of a number
of needs:

[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun. A polar mount like that used for satellite
dishes (rotate trough on long axis to track the sun during the day, and
elevation +/-23.5° seasonal adjustment) might be ideal. I've been trying
to figure out a hydraulic solution, but I'm sure there's more than one
way to skin this cat. Whatever the solution is, it'll need to keep the
trough steady in even gusty conditions.

[2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
better way, but I don't know what it might be.

[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve.
A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs to open
easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring force or
weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure. The PVC check
valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive ($22/ea) and don't
seal well at all.

[4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
interface. One of the biggest headaches is that we can't see what's
going on inside the engine. There's a commercial opportunity here, too -
because once the developers are done, a tool like this would be needed
for maintainers to trouble-shoot failing pumps.

[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.

[6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic
pump bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I
found out the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the
boiling temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).

And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard) is:

[7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held)
that tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well
and pump. It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid
obstacles (like boulders) between the device and the water.

Probably I should put this list on a project web page. Tomorrow.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Oct 4, 4:04*am, Morris Dovey wrote:

[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun.....

.....other than a human with a wrench and a few instructions!

JP
**************
Kiss. : o

PS - I made some clamping cauls!!!! They're excellent!

Jay Pique wrote:
On Oct 4, 4:04 am, Morris Dovey wrote:

[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun.....

.....other than a human with a wrench and a few instructions!

Kiss. : o

I like simple, too. Ok, you get the first 10-year stint, and after five
years of non-slacking tracking, you'll receive a new pair of welding
goggles. :-T

I think the economics (everywhere) are in favor of a more energy
efficient solution - and I think we'd all prefer to see that kid in school.

PS - I made some clamping cauls!!!! They're excellent!

Good news, indeed.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Oct 4, 3:04*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
snip
[2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
better way, but I don't know what it might be.

snip/ --
When you said earlier that the next step was a "10m solution" , I
thought about two pumps as well, but with a tank buried half way,
stepping the water up. Might need to consider overflow or dry tank
conditions; but, if the pump is self-priming, a dry tank shouldn't
cause a problem for the top pump.
Just a thought.

Ed

StL.Ed wrote:
On Oct 4, 3:04 am, Morris Dovey wrote:
snip
[2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. I identified
the problem, stuck a post-it on the wall, and moved on. If there's a
pump guru somewhere who can figure out how to use the fluidyne's
alternating pressures to do that job, there's a real opportunity to be a
hero by showing how to do it. My best guess was to use two pumps - one
at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
better way, but I don't know what it might be.

snip/ --
When you said earlier that the next step was a "10m solution" , I
thought about two pumps as well, but with a tank buried half way,
stepping the water up. Might need to consider overflow or dry tank
conditions; but, if the pump is self-priming, a dry tank shouldn't
cause a problem for the top pump.
Just a thought.

I just copied your post into my "Things to Consider" directory, and will
encourage you to keep that challenge on your back burner. We still have
a lot to learn about is and isn't reasonable, and I suspect that what we
learn with shallow wells may very well influence our thinking for deeper
wells.

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:

[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun. A polar mount like that used for satellite
dishes (rotate trough on long axis to track the sun during the day, and
elevation +/-23.5° seasonal adjustment) might be ideal. I've been trying
to figure out a hydraulic solution, but I'm sure there's more than one
way to skin this cat. Whatever the solution is, it'll need to keep the
trough steady in even gusty conditions.

A clockwork mechanism pops into my head.

Mutter, mutter. Moving that reflector and keeping it steady in winds would need
a fairly robust mechanism. Probably weight driven -- simpler than springs and
probably cheaper, given that you need quite a bit of energy to drive the
mechanism.

Some kind of funky cam to track the sun and return during the night. You need
an escapement. It doesn't have to be real accurate. A pendulum is easy, but a
balance wheel might be more reliable. Naw. Use a pendulum and enclose it in a
box with the weights and mechanism. A couple of dozen parts. Most could be
stamped out of aluminum or hand made with a file and a few jigs. Mutter, mutter.

These solar cookers were all over Tibet, even places that had other sources of
power: http://douglasjohnson.org/pictures/Solar%20Cooker.jpg

-- Doug

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey wrote:

Dave Balderstone wrote:
----snip-----

[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.


You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the cold
side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is normally
significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during summer.

WayneJ

WayneJ wrote:
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey wrote:

[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head
without significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.

You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the
cold side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is
normally significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during
summer.

The "clean" way to do that appears be to be adding a water jacket to the
cold head, and route the well water through that jacket.

The problem is that when the well pipe drains (or starts dry), that
jacket will stay dry until the pump has cycled enough times to bring
water up to fill it. Then the air-filled jacket will allow heat to build
up in the cold head, and oscillation will halt because of an the
resulting insufficient heat differential.

The "dirty" method is to simply splash the discharge water over the cold
head, which will solve the cooling problem but opens the door to a host
of other problems - including contamination of the well.

At present both hot and cold heads are 24" sections of the tubing used
for semi truck exhaust stacks, with a flue cap (thimble?) brazed to one
end. That's the Iowa version. The Pakistani version used different
materials, and others' will be adapted to suit what's available locally,
which makes standardization an interesting issue.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 00:54:32 -0700, Morris Dovey wrote:

WayneJ wrote:
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:41 -0700, Morris Dovey
wrote:

[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head
without significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.
You probably are already doing this, but one obvious way to cool the
cold side is with the water being pumped out of the ground, which is
normally significantly colder than ambient air temps, at least during
summer.

The "clean" way to do that appears be to be adding a water jacket to the
cold head, and route the well water through that jacket.

The problem is that when the well pipe drains (or starts dry), that
jacket will stay dry until the pump has cycled enough times to bring
water up to fill it. Then the air-filled jacket will allow heat to build
up in the cold head, and oscillation will halt because of an the
resulting insufficient heat differential.

It should be possible to arrange the pipe connections to the jacket such
that the jacket does not empty when the well pipe drains. If the ASCII
drawing stays intact, this would be an example. The drawing is a section
through the jacket and the cold head. I realize the drawing of the cold
head is probably incorrect, but the concept should be adaptable.

___| |___
_______| | | |_______
IN \ | | OUT
_______ \ | | _______
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|___| |___|
| |

The water in and out pipes are at the same level. A deflector at the
opening of the in pipe causes circulation in the jacket while water flows.
When the pump stops and the well pipe drains back air enters at the out
pipe, but only the water above the bottom of the in pipe will drain out of
the jacket. At start up, the substantial amount of water in the jacket
will sink enough heat to allow the pump to start the water flowing. The
size of the jacket may need to be adjusted to ensure reliable start up but
it shouldn't need to be very large. The jacket would have to be primed for
a dry start and drained if freezing conditions occur.


The "dirty" method is to simply splash the discharge water over the cold
head, which will solve the cooling problem but opens the door to a host
of other problems - including contamination of the well.

Agreed, this is probably not a good idea.

At present both hot and cold heads are 24" sections of the tubing used
for semi truck exhaust stacks, with a flue cap (thimble?) brazed to one
end. That's the Iowa version. The Pakistani version used different
materials, and others' will be adapted to suit what's available locally,
which makes standardization an interesting issue.


Is standardization needed or desirable? Use of local resources would seem
to be a good thing.

Is there a better place to continue this discussion? Perhaps it is getting
a bit OT for rec.woodworking.

WayneJ

On Oct 4, 3:04*am, Morris Dovey wrote:

[1] There isn't yet a non-electrical tracking system to keep a trough
steadily aimed at the sun.

DAGS - pneumatic sun tracker. First hit:
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Therm...lar_20Ene rgy
you get the idea...

ditions.

[2] The next developmental stage will be wells deeper than the 27 feet
or so that water can be sucked without pulling a vacuum. snip... My best guess was to use two pumps - one
at the bottom of the well to pump the water, and another at the surface
to pump hot air down to drive the water pump. I think there might be a
better way, but I don't know what it might be.

That's about the only way you can do it with a pump. You have to push
the water up from the bottom, you can't suck it up. The other kind of
positive displacement "pump" would be an Archimedes' Screw.

[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve.
A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required.

I have an idea for a valve. It approximates an artificial heart
valve.

[4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
interface.

I'd use a data acquisition module from Dataq: http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di148.htm
The exact design of the sensor depends upon exactly what you're trying
to measure and how accurately.


[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot
and cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.

Grainger sells tubing insulation made from closed-cell foam, something
like http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3F404 with the biggest OD
you can fit, and the appropriate ID.

[6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic
pump bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I
found out the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the
boiling temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).

With the proper design, carbon fiber components can be easily built,
can withstand relatively high heat, and are strong/light weight. I've
got a friend that is a guru in this area. He calls his garage the
"Central Okla. Military Industrial Complex." Would be glad to put you
in touch with him.

And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard) is:

[7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held)
that tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well
and pump. It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid
obstacles (like boulders) between the device and the water.

Dowsing rods. Other than that, you either need to go high tech/
expensive.

Would be glad to help more with these ideas. Contact me off-list if
you're interested.

Dan Major
Bespoke Consulting and Design LLC

http://sites.google.com/site/bespokeengr/home

Dan Major wrote:

I have an idea for a valve. It approximates an artificial heart
valve.

Would be glad to help more with these ideas. Contact me off-list if
you're interested.

You have mail

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Morris Dovey
wrote:
Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed air,
they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be ideal for
the
in the well pump.
http://www.yamadapump.com
something along this line could probably be made from pvc.

[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check valve. A
DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs to open easily
(as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring force or weight of
the moving part) and seal completely on closure. The PVC check valves that
I was able to buy locally are expensive ($22/ea) and don't seal well at
all.

I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
there are none available for any price that are long lasting and that
actually seal.
You can have one but not both. I remember the old hand well pumps had
leather flap
checks, very easy open, and perfect seal, best of all the repair was dirt
cheap
and quick.

[4] /Major/ good karma would accrue to anyone who could provide
development teams with pressure, temperature, and fluid piston
displacement information for both hot and cold heads at a one kHz or so
sampling rate for display on a PC or laptop with via, say, a USB2
interface. One of the biggest headaches is that we can't see what's going
on inside the engine. There's a commercial opportunity here, too - because
once the developers are done, a tool like this would be needed for
maintainers to trouble-shoot failing pumps.

[5] Fluidynes operate on the temperature differential between the hot and
cold heads, and we'll probably always be looking for ways to more
effectively get heat into the hot head and out of the cold head without
significantly affecting the cost or requiring custom parts.

[6] There'll also be a "forever" search for better/less expensive
materials throughout. I've thought about casting ceramic/concrete pump
bodies and daydreamed about molded one-piece high-temperature plastic pump
bodies, but don't know enough materials to even be dangerous. I found out
the hard way that PVC doesn't much like to be heated above the boiling
temperature of water (it wasn't very pretty when I tried that).

And the last item for tonight (I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard)
is:

[7] A battery/solar powered electronic device (preferably hand-held) that
tells if and how far down there's enough water to justify a well and pump.
It'd also be a big help to know if there are any solid obstacles (like
boulders) between the device and the water.
Dousing rods?

basilisk

basilisk wrote:

Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed
air, they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be
ideal for the in the well pump. http://www.yamadapump.com something
along this line could probably be made from pvc.

Those are pretty neat, and there's a strong resemblance between the
fluidyne and a _half_ of one of those pumps. Where Yamadas operate on a
supply of compressed air, the fluidyne operates on the pressure of
expansion and contraction of a fixed volume air and substitutes a fluid
piston for the diaphragm piston.

[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check
valve. A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs
to open easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring
force or weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure.
The PVC check valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive
($22/ea) and don't seal well at all.

I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
there are none available for any price that are long lasting and
that actually seal. You can have one but not both. I remember the old
hand well pumps had leather flap checks, very easy open, and perfect
seal, best of all the repair was dirt cheap and quick.

I remember watching an uncle replacing a kitchen sink pump leather with
a new deerhide leather. IIRC he spent more time deciding from where on
the hide the new leather would be cut than on the actual repair.

I suspect there will be more than a few of these pumps with leather
flappers.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Oct 5, 3:22*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
basilisk wrote:
Have you seen the dual diaphram utility pumps that run on compressed
air, they have low air usage are fairly simple mechanically, might be
ideal for the in the well pump.http://www.yamadapump.comsomething
along this line could probably be made from pvc.

Those are pretty neat, and there's a strong resemblance between the
fluidyne and a _half_ of one of those pumps. Where Yamadas operate on a
supply of compressed air, the fluidyne operates on the pressure of
expansion and contraction of a fixed volume air and substitutes a fluid
piston for the diaphragm piston.

[3] There's a need for a /really/ inexpensive, long-lasting check
valve. A DIY solution might be ideal but isn't required. It needs
to open easily (as in not using up pumping power to overcome spring
force or weight of the moving part) and seal completely on closure.
The PVC check valves that I was able to buy locally are expensive
($22/ea) and don't seal well at all.

I use a lot of check valves for all sorts of things at work and home,
there are none available for any price that are long lasting and
that actually seal. You can have one but not both. I remember the old
hand well pumps had leather flap checks, very easy open, and perfect
seal, best of all the repair was dirt cheap and quick.

I remember watching an uncle replacing a kitchen sink pump leather with
a new deerhide leather. IIRC he spent more time deciding from where on
the hide the new leather would be cut than on the actual repair.

I suspect there will be more than a few of these pumps with leather
flappers.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

If for some reason a cooked piece of meat turned out particularly
tough, we would refer to it as 'pompleer'.