Tim Daneliuk wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

There are crazy people on both the right and left. The right however,
is made up of people that go for less government control, the left is
made up of those wanting more government control. All the way on the

That's not even close to true any more. The right wants plenty of control,
just in different arenas than the left.

I think you are confusing Republican party with the right.

The sole place where the right is demonstrably superior is in its view of
national defense - i.e. It actually wants to defend the nation, whereas
the
left wants to wring its hands and figure out why every problem is our
own fault.

I don't agree. The right, besides national defense, believes strongly
in personal property rights, capitalism, individual control of the means
of production rather than government control, the constitution and the
bill of rights (freedom of speech, religion, the press, right to bear
arms and so on).

left is Total government control (totalitarianism), all the way on the
right is No government control (anarchy). There is no reason to
complicate it more than that. The left has been trying to hide this
simple mantra for many years.

Communists, Marxists, Nazi's, Dictators, Liberals, today's Democratic
and Republican parties are on the left. Conservatives and Libertarians
are on the right. You are clearly on the right, no reason on earth to
deny it. Most Americans are on the right I think, even if they are too
ill-informed to know their political party has been usurped by the left.
Well, Republicans seem to know, but Dems are mostly clueless it seems.

The discussion in not along a line, it is in two dimensions:

Yeah, 2 dimensions: The left and the right.

http://www.quiz2d.com/quiz/Libertari...&economic=97.7

There are *two* dimensions to this debate and they are not trivially just
"right" and "left".

I dunno, I look at your 2 dimensions and I see top and bottom rather
than left or right. Same thing, turned on the side, but much less
clear. Your picture shows the Liberals, conservatives and centrists all
on the same plane. That is wrong. It would be wrong if you went left to
right rather than top and bottom and put them in the middle.

And, no, I am not on the right - I am very much in the "Radical Libertarian"
corner...

The radical libertarian corner is on the right, more to the right than a
conservative perhaps, but very much on the right. The right is for
individual freedom, all the way to the right is anarchy, or, total
individual freedom.

In fact, the only real common ground I have with today's right is an
opposition to abortion and a support for their more-or-less hawkish foreign policy.

Only if you have a unique view of the right and left. From what I see,
you are on the right. OK, you are on the top end of your scale, while
Obama, Hitler, Castro, Chavez and that ilk are on the bottom.

See, some of us are able to think for ourselves and don't need to wear
the t-shirt to know what we actually believe ...

I think everyone thinks for themselves. The fact you and I agree on
most everything doesn't mean you, or I don't think for ourselves any
more than Upscale thinking like a socialist such as Obama doesn't mean
he doesn't think for himself. His empty, inane arguments only make him
look like he doesn't do much thinking:-)

The "usual right wing mantras" you list up there are imo, not very
accurate. These things exist of course, but they are more a figment of
the lefts imagination, just like the left associating Hitler and the
NAZI's with the right, when clearly, Hitler was a dictator and 100% to
the left, just like Obama, Chavez and other Marxists socialists of our
time.

I think you underestimate the degree to which that stuff exists on the
right.

I know it exists on the right, it also exists on the left. Still,
considering the right (or the top) supports individual freedom while the
left supports government control puts you squarely on the right side of
the spectrum.

The right was so worried about things like the definition of
marriage, people's drug habits, the role of religion in public life,
and so on that they conceded the last election to a raging radical-cum-
Marxist. It is pretty much true that we have the right to thank for
this vile presidency.

I think you have ACORN, the left wing media and the Republican party to
blame more than anything. Besides the fake voting, the American public
was not made very aware that Obama was an anti-American, socialist
*******. They were all too busy watching Law and Order, American Idol
and David Letterman, then the "Republicans" run McCain. It's like,
here, we have a liberal old loser running against a liberal young loser.
The left was inspired, the right went to sleep. Next thing you know, we
lose General Motors and get Government Motors.

I'll be happy when Robocop needs a heart valve and comes to the USSA and
is told he has to wait 6 months, just like he does at home.

--
Jack
Got change: Doctor care ==== Bureaucrat don't care!
http://jbstein.com

I feel that this would be an appropriate point in the discussion to
point out that we had a republican vice president who actually DID
shoot someone, he also was not tried or convicted of any crime.

--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

The sole place where the right is demonstrably superior is in its view of
national defense - i.e. It actually wants to defend the nation, whereas
the left wants to wring its hands and figure out why every problem is our
own fault.

I don't agree. The right, besides national defense, believes strongly
in personal property rights, capitalism, individual control of the means
of production rather than government control, the constitution and the
bill of rights (freedom of speech, religion, the press, right to bear
arms and so on).

Ideally, that's the case.

Ideally or not, that's still the case.

In reality, there are portions of the indisputable
"Right" that wish to impose morality and behavior codes by means of
government force.

Well, you don't have to be an anarchist to be on the right.

Not exactly. I am libertarian but at odds with the self-declared "Right"
on things like government definition of marriage, the death penalty,
anti-drug laws, and so on.

To think that everyone on the right is in lock step with each other on
every issue is simply wrong.

And, no, I am not on the right - I am very much in the "Radical
Libertarian"
corner...

The radical libertarian corner is on the right, more to the right than a
conservative perhaps, but very much on the right. The right is for
individual freedom, all the way to the right is anarchy, or, total
individual freedom.

My graduate training was (among other things) in an abstruse area
of theoretical mathematics where the most important thing I learned
was that direction doesn't matter, only your coordinate system

Yes, pretty much my point regarding right left vs top bottom.

There are two kinds of people in the statist/collectivist bag:

1) Those who reflexively cling to the system without any really deep
thought, because it gives them what they want without having
earned it (The Pigs).

2) Those who very explicitly and thoughtfully defend such a system
with full awareness that their good deeds are phony and at the
expense of some citizens (The Monsters).

I've encountered both Pigs and Monsters and they're equally repugnant,
but the Monsters usually gravitate into politics where they get the force
of government on their side - they're usually the more dangerous of the
two therefore.

Well put and hard to argue with.

I hasten to add that there are lots and lots of rightwingers that aren't
all that thoughtful either. Witness the success of Hannity and Co.

I don't listen to Hannity but I have been listening to Glenn Beck.
Glenn Beck is the first guy in the history of TV that makes any sense.

I think you have ACORN, the left wing media and the Republican party to
blame more than anything. Besides the fake voting, the American public
was not made very aware that Obama was an anti-American, socialist
*******. They were all too busy watching Law and Order, American Idol

I live less than 20 miles away from his home. The public around here
were VERY aware of his vile tendencies and voted in huge amounts FOR
him (long live the pigs). Had the traditionally Republican base in the
state had any real choice besides another statist, they would have
voted otherwise. Because of all the Chicago political fraud, IL is
destined to be a Blue state forever, but the Rs would have at least
registered some small complaint.

I think it will be difficult for the right to register much of a
complaint for 2 reasons. The left already has control of the mainstream
media and educational system and I think they have control of the voter
box. Not the voter, the voter box. I suspect the reason ACORN has
people register to vote 72 times is simply to prevent more votes showing
up than there are people to vote... It almost gets embarrassing when
125% of the registered voters vote... Personally, I think it's too
late, but the first thing needed in this country is a way to insure each
living citizen can vote just once, and that the vote actually goes to
the one to whom you voted.

It is certainly true that that the fraud and deceit practiced by ACORN
and similar groups helped Dear Leader, but I think his election was
fait accompli once we had both a big-government Republican in office
for 8 years and a really pathetic candidate running to replace him.

Give me control of the propaganda machine, and the voter box, and I
could elect David Dukes, Rev. Wright, Chavez, or even Obama.

Combine that with that fact that most Americans really don't care how
their neighbors have sex or what drugs they take and the Republicans
just looked worse, and worse, and worse.

Republicans look bad because they ARE bad. Just like Communists,
Socialists, Nazi's, and Democrats, they are for bigger and bigger
government, government control instead of individual control. Because of
this, we basically have a one party system, the socialist party.

I'll be happy when Robocop needs a heart valve and comes to the USSA and
is told he has to wait 6 months, just like he does at home.

I won't. I'd rather be free and have the collectivists from other countries
be able to come here and witness the difference.

That would make me happy too, but since it is not likely to stay this
way for long, I might as well enjoy watching the freaking Canucks and
Italians twist in the breeze, waiting for decent medical care...

Liberty needs both champions AND examples. With the apparent demise of American liberty,
there will be no true individualist democracies left on the planet, and that
is tragic not just for us, but for the entire planet ... there is great
darkness ahead ...

There is a silver lining in every cloud. Mine will be watching Robocops
head explode waiting for his MRI, or balloon angioplasty or some other
procedure the government can't provide him in time.... The bad side
will be my kids will have to suffer Gestapo road blocks to see if they
had a beer, smoking, are carrying donuts or red meat and so on.

--
Jack
Got Change: General Motors ==== Government Motors!
http://jbstein.com

Larry W wrote:
I feel that this would be an appropriate point in the discussion to
point out that we had a republican vice president who actually DID
shoot someone, he also was not tried or convicted of any crime.

Perhaps the victim was dressed up as a Democrat?

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Larry W wrote:
I feel that this would be an appropriate point in the discussion to
point out that we had a republican vice president who actually DID
shoot someone, he also was not tried or convicted of any crime.

You're wrong. The Vice President was indicted in both New York and New
Jersey. In one jurisdiction, the trial resulted in an acquittal, in the
other the charge was dismissed.

Didn't matter, though. Alexander Hamilton was still dead. And Aaron Burr was
both a Democrat and a Republican.

"Larry W" wrote in message
...
I feel that this would be an appropriate point in the discussion to
point out that we had a republican vice president who actually DID
shoot someone, he also was not tried or convicted of any crime.


Nor was he charged as no crime was found to be committed. He did not leave
his victim trapped under water either