Scott Lurndal wrote:

"Pete C." writes:

That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.

Nearly all restaurants cook in basic AL cookware.

I was under the impression that there was a thin layer of
stainless steel over the AL core (to avoid staining, e.g. tomato sauce).

No, plain AL commercial cookware is extremely common. Fancy multi layer
cookware is mostly for cosmetics and marketing to consumers.

On Jul 15, 7:26*pm, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:


After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. *The
seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. *Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

Is it possible that the problem with the seals is that the surface of
the seal has oxidized? If so using Nitrogen ( cheaper than Argon )
might be the answer.

You might also check with Exxon Mobile ( I consider them as world
leaders in Lubes ) for food grade lubricants. Their best worm gear
lube is a food grade synthetic.

Dan

Joe AutoDrill submitted this idea :
"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
dry out.

I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
leakage.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

For the shock on dirt bikes there is an o-ring covered by a teflon
(I think) seal. The o-ring pushes the seal to the cylinder wall.
The seal can be installed by warming in a microwave. It can also
be cut with a Z shape. Usually the seal doesn't wear out, but the
o-ring
loses its elasticity over time. Those shocks get pretty hot. I wouldn't
think the o-ring in your application would be subject to as much heat.
Also they are sealing oil, not air, so a cut might be worse.

Wayne D.

On Jul 15, 11:26*am, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. *I hope this
doesn't **** anyone off too badly. *I believe the answers and knowledge that
may get passed around is mutually beneficial. *Thus the breach in newsgroup
etiquette.

Anyhow... *I've got a unique problem.

I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. *It has a tube
(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
plated also) and some rubber seals inside.

One of my customers is a medical giant. *They can't have ANY type of
lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
gives them hell.

So... *They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
whatsoever inside the unit.

After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. *The
seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. *Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?

Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. *Can't even use water...

I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... *But I bet there is
a better option.

Thoughts?

As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
lube without wearing out. *We've done long-term tests... *The tolerances
between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
if it matters.

Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

Hi, Joe.
I understand your problem. We make cables on occation for a division
of Respironics. NOTHING can be changed or deviated in the
manufacturing procedure unless it is documented and approved by FDA.
Years go we wanted to replace a machined delrin bracket with an
injection molded bracket. No way!

My suggestion is to track down an engineer type, possibly chemical
engineer, at the company you get the rubber seals from. Perhaps they
can formulate a rubber seal material that is self lubricating. Or they
may have a slightly different material mix that will let the seals
last longer.

I bet an engineer would just love to work on your problem, but you
have to get to the actual manufacturer, not just a rep or distributor.
I hope the seals are US made. Not because foreign are inferior, but
because you can''t be sure you will ALWAYS get the same mix of raw
materials.

I a sure you will keep us informed.

Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
I would try teflon rings for the seals. It sounds like this is
something that is used under true sterile controls. I would assume
it can be disassembled for autoclaving?

I doubt they cook it... In fact, I can pretty much guarantee they
don't...

In that case you could likely use a split Teflon ring that has an
overlapping joint.


--
Steve W.

"Bob AZ" wrote in message
...


Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...


Joe

There is a product called Surgical Grease. Hospitals keep it on hand.
I suspect that it simply is a good grease that is sterliized.

Bob AZ


IIRC, it also will not burn. Important for O2 fittings.

What do they lube one-time hypodermic syringes with, if anything?

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...

Take a look through this lubricant guide.
http://www.anefforttorecoup.com/sear...x?qt=lubricant

Seems like an uncomfortable position to be in. Do you certify the
equipment to any Standard or spec if you do simply change a seal material
that would be in contravention to?

No. No certification. They bought without telling us the specific nature
of the application and used the machines (multiple) for a few years now. We
always wondered why we got them back every so often for rebuilds and they
would work absolutely perfectly here with just a bit of work... And a new
seal kit every time.

Now that we know what they are doing, we have simply said, "We were not told
of this but will do all we can to improve it for you."

CLIP

I'd assumed you were working w/ the end user on this rather than in
isolation.

Sorta... Isolation at the moment with a list of suggestions possibly to be
tried here or provided to the end user depending on what they wind up
being...
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

You didn't say what you're using for a seal now. There are a zillion
materials out there--kind of hard to make a suggestion until one knows
what
it has to beat.

Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal and
one cup seal with wiper lip.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

how about synthetic blood plasma?

LOL. Maybe. Off to Body Depot in a few to get some to try it.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

Thanks for all the ideas and tips. Still monitoring the posts but I should
probably get back to work sooner or later so I'll respond sporadically as I
see something jump out at me.

Thanks again folks!!!
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
doesn't **** anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge
that may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in
newsgroup etiquette.

Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.

I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
plated also) and some rubber seals inside.

One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
gives them hell.

So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
whatsoever inside the unit.

After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well.
The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly,
needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI
or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?

Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...

I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there
is a better option.

Thoughts?

As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around
3" if it matters.

Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...

Truthfully, I'd say if the machines lasts 2-3 years with out lube they
should simply replace or overhaul the equipment, like most every thing that
the medical industry consumes their tools/equipment goes out for repaired
regularly.

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
You didn't say what you're using for a seal now. There are a zillion
materials out there--kind of hard to make a suggestion until one
knows what
it has to beat.

Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal
and one cup seal with wiper lip.

If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a call--they're
very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations including some that
are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have just the thing for your
application.

Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal
and one cup seal with wiper lip.

If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a call--they're
very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations including some that
are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have just the thing for your
application.

Went to them before coming here. Because our application is in a closed
groove, there weren't many options. ...Or maybe I just got a bum rep. with
little knowledge of products.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Seems like an uncomfortable position to be in. Do you certify the
equipment to any Standard or spec if you do simply change a seal material
that would be in contravention to?

No. No certification. They bought without telling us the specific nature
of the application and used the machines (multiple) for a few years now. We
always wondered why we got them back every so often for rebuilds and they
would work absolutely perfectly here with just a bit of work... And a new
seal kit every time.

Now that we know what they are doing, we have simply said, "We were not told
of this but will do all we can to improve it for you."
....
Thass good...had too many times where something was tried to get
finessed by customer utilities by "suggesting" we (the vendor) make a
change that would have the end result of us being the ones who were the
ones w/ a compliance violation w/ NRC.

Wouldn't want to see a good guy trying to help somebody out find
themselves in a wringer unwittingly.

--

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup
seal and one cup seal with wiper lip.

If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a
call--they're very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations
including some that are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have
just the thing for your application.

Went to them before coming here. Because our application is in a
closed groove, there weren't many options. ...Or maybe I just got a
bum rep. with little knowledge of products.

OK, stupid question time--is there any way that for this specific
application you could use an O-ring either directly or with a machined
adapter?

If so, then that opens up a lot of choices.

OK, stupid question time--is there any way that for this specific
application you could use an O-ring either directly or with a machined
adapter?

If so, then that opens up a lot of choices.

I don't think so... But it is certainly one of the things I'm thinking
about. It would have to be a pretty serious O-Ring to work in the existing
groove... And then the tolerances are so tight between teh quill/piston and
the cylinder wall (0.001" or so...) that a cup seal, which expands is
usually more efficient. An O-Ring might squeeze in there but cause too much
resistance even if it were a special substance.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

There are many food grade lubricants. Here is one:
http://www.schaefferoil.com/food_grade.html

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I
hope this doesn't **** anyone off too badly. I believe the
answers and knowledge that may get passed around is mutually
beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup etiquette.

Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.

I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It
has a tube (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a
quill (hard chrome plated also) and some rubber seals inside.

One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY
type of lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the
FDA comes in and gives them hell.

So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and
dryers so that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use
absolutely no oil whatsoever inside the unit.

After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so
well. The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still
sealed properly, needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all.
Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not
cause medical (food grade or better maybe?) issues?

Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use
water...

I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone
that disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere...
But I bet there is a better option.

Thoughts?

As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times
with no lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests...
The tolerances between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the
quill diameter is around 3" if it matters.

Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper
lube made me think that there might be an expert in here with
some ideas...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
doesn't **** anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
etiquette.

Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.

I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
plated also) and some rubber seals inside.

One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
gives them hell.

So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
whatsoever inside the unit.

After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?

Why not use teflon rings that are a very close fit to the cylinder
walls? They will wear a bit over time, but if the cylinder is smooth,
they should still seal well enough to develop pressure, and not stick or
bind.

Jon

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
dry out.

I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
leakage.
You make a helical slit in the seal. When stuffed in the bore, and
constrained by the groove in the ram, the tapered ends of the seal press
together. I'm sure there is a fixture or tool to do this, but I have no
idea what it would look like. But, custom seals like this are a fairly
common device, so there must be a standard tool to cut the ends.

Jon

RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 15, 4:20 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
nhurst wrote:
I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
them.
Don't think so, they use it for surgical purposes. I believe the
problem with flaking teflon on pots is that it exposes you to bare
aluminum underneath which has been associated (though not definitively)
with Alzheimer's. That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.

Teflon breaks down above 500 degrees, and I'm sure that some of the
polymer is already loosening it's bonds before that. Pretty much all
monomers are carcinogenic. Then again, so is sunlight, and probably
jogging.
Teflon begins to break down above 450 C, which is QUITE hot. And, it
can be subjected to 400 C operation for YEARS with no detectable change.

Jon

On Jul 15, 1:26*pm, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. *I hope this
doesn't **** anyone off too badly. *I believe the answers and knowledge that
may get passed around is mutually beneficial. *Thus the breach in newsgroup
etiquette.

Anyhow... *I've got a unique problem.

I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. *It has a tube
(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
plated also) and some rubber seals inside.

One of my customers is a medical giant. *They can't have ANY type of
lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
gives them hell.

So... *They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
whatsoever inside the unit.

After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. *The
seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. *Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...

Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?

Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. *Can't even use water...

I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... *But I bet there is
a better option.

Thoughts?

As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
lube without wearing out. *We've done long-term tests... *The tolerances
between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
if it matters.

Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill

V8013-R

I looked at my Parker O-Ring Handbook and they discuss o-ring sliding
friction, etc. They claim to make PTFE coated o-rings as one option,
but maybe you should call one of their technical reps and discuss your
problem with them and see if there is anything new out there. The
handbook says that generally that the harder durometer elastomers have
less sliding friction, but optimal design has many factors including
groove depth, materials, etc.