I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet doors
to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the case. The door
to case relationship will be similar to that shown at
http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm. Preference is for a high quality
hinge in matt black with high quality brass being second choice. I've read a
lot of hinge specifications the past few days and not a one suggested they
would allow the doors to open the way I'd like them too... though they very
well might! Does any one have experience with this situation who may also be
able to make some specific recommendations?

Thanks,

John

John Grossbohlin wrote:
I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet
doors to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the
case. The door to case relationship will be similar to that shown at
http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm. Preference is for a high
quality hinge in matt black with high quality brass being second
choice. I've read a lot of hinge specifications the past few days and
not a one suggested they would allow the doors to open the way I'd
like them too... though they very well might! Does any one have
experience with this situation who may also be able to make some
specific recommendations?

Any of them should if you project them far enough from the sides of the
cabinet, but they're going to be sticking out quite a way unless the doors
are _very_ thin.

John,
I'm not sure there is such a thing. I've used brusso knife hinges on a
number of my cabinets and I'm sitting here at work staring at one that has
the L shape knife hinges on it now.

The problem is that to fold back completely on the sides of the cabinet
would require that the hinge pivot point be on the exterior of the cabinet -
otherwise there is no way it could open in the manner you're describing.

I think knife hinges are necessarily restricted to inset doors since the
hinge mechanism sits on the top edge of the door and requires there to be an
attachment point above the door for the mating half of the hinge.

Looking at your krenov picture, it looks more like an inset door than an
overlay (the cabinet top/bottom are over/under the doors).You could use a
straight knife hinge that sticks out a ways. This would establish a pivot
point on the exterior of the cabinet and might get you where you're going.
Problem is that it would probably have to stick out more than normal and
might be kinda ugly.

If you're making a Krenov style/quality cabinet, I'd recommend using the
Brusso hinges. Very price but best quality.

My 2 cents.

Gary in KC

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
m...
I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet
doors
to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the case. The
door
to case relationship will be similar to that shown at
http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm. Preference is for a high quality
hinge in matt black with high quality brass being second choice. I've read
a
lot of hinge specifications the past few days and not a one suggested they
would allow the doors to open the way I'd like them too... though they
very
well might! Does any one have experience with this situation who may also
be
able to make some specific recommendations?

Thanks,

John

"Gary A in KC" wrote in message
I think knife hinges are necessarily restricted to inset doors since the
hinge mechanism sits on the top edge of the door and requires there to be
an
attachment point above the door for the mating half of the hinge.

Perhaps the double offset hinges would fulfill his need.
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...=3,41241,41267

John Grossbohlin wrote:
I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet doors
to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the case. The door
to case relationship will be similar to that shown at
http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm.

For that you would want offset hinges. The L shape allows the hinge to
fit around the front edge and outside of the case.

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...31&cat=3,41241

Chris

Those double offset hinges still don't move the pivot point of the hinge to
the outside of the cabinet as John's need is describing. They just move the
pivot point forward so that you can inset the doors deeper than the front
edge of the cabinet (inset to the sides and not just the top/bottom of the
cabinet).

Gary in KC


"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
John Grossbohlin wrote:
I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet
doors
to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the case. The
door
to case relationship will be similar to that shown at
http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm.

For that you would want offset hinges. The L shape allows the hinge to
fit around the front edge and outside of the case.

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...31&cat=3,41241

Chris

Gary A in KC wrote:
Those double offset hinges still don't move the pivot point of the hinge to
the outside of the cabinet as John's need is describing. They just move the
pivot point forward so that you can inset the doors deeper than the front
edge of the cabinet (inset to the sides and not just the top/bottom of the
cabinet).

Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward
as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you
place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside
corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be
able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.

Chris

Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward
as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you
place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside
corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be
able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.

Chris

Don't think so. Moving it forward moves the door "forward" as it pivots and
allows it to open 180 degrees instead of just 90 degrees. I'm sitting here
next to my cabinet that has this exact configuration with the offset knife
hinge and there's no way it could ever open 270 degrees.

For it to pivot 270 degrees the pivot point of the hinge has to be entirely
outside the the cabinet (both in front and to the outside edge). Basically
for a kinfe hinge, a straight hinge on a fully inset door allows for 90
degree opening (give or take a few degrees). The L shape offset hinge allows
the same door to open 180 degrees since it's moved the pivot point to the
front of the cabinet.

Gary in KC

Gary A in KC wrote:
Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward
as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you
place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside
corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be
able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.

Chris

Don't think so. Moving it forward moves the door "forward" as it pivots and
allows it to open 180 degrees instead of just 90 degrees.

For it to pivot 270 degrees the pivot point of the hinge has to be entirely
outside the the cabinet (both in front and to the outside edge).

Not so. Imagine that the short arm of the "L" on the hinge is really
long, moving the pivot point far out in front of the cabinet but still
within the side edge. This has the effect of moving the door out to the
side as it swings around.

Basically
for a kinfe hinge, a straight hinge on a fully inset door allows for 90
degree opening (give or take a few degrees).

The example in the original post has full overlay doors, so a straight
knife hinge with the hinge point within the bounds of the door allows
for 180 degree openings. An offset hinge with the pivot aligned with
the outside corner of the door gives the minimum hinge visibility while
still allowing for 270 degree opening.

Chris

"Gary A in KC" wrote in message
...


Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward
as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you
place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside
corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be
able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.

Chris

Don't think so. Moving it forward moves the door "forward" as it pivots
and
allows it to open 180 degrees instead of just 90 degrees. I'm sitting here
next to my cabinet that has this exact configuration with the offset knife
hinge and there's no way it could ever open 270 degrees.

For it to pivot 270 degrees the pivot point of the hinge has to be
entirely
outside the the cabinet (both in front and to the outside edge). Basically
for a kinfe hinge, a straight hinge on a fully inset door allows for 90
degree opening (give or take a few degrees). The L shape offset hinge
allows
the same door to open 180 degrees since it's moved the pivot point to the
front of the cabinet.


The follow up to my question highlights the theoretical issue I'm having
pretty well...

I don't know if either "overlay" or "inset" describes the situation well
which is why I posted the link. My thoughts were that with the outside edge
of the door even with the outside edge of the case and in front of the edge
of the case it was more like an overlay than an inset in relation to the
hinges... I was ignoring the top and bottom.

Gary, is your door similar to what is in the link or is it a true inset door
where the door front is even with the case front? I'm thinking the swing
would change depending on this relationship. I was looking at off set hinges
as I understood from the getgo I'd have to hang the straight hinges way out
so the pivot point was outside the case side instead of being centered on
the case side. I wasn't keen on that idea for a number of reasons... but the
off set still seems like it might work.

I think I'll pick up some cheap off set knife hinges to play with and if
there is some other style recommended I'd grab them too. What other options
are there?? I've got no more than a week before I must have my final choice
in hand! LOL

Thoughts?

Thanks,

John

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
I think I'll pick up some cheap off set knife hinges to play with and if
there is some other style recommended I'd grab them too. What other
options
are there?? I've got no more than a week before I must have my final
choice
in hand! LOL

Why waste the money? Draw a simple offset hinge, cut it out and stick a pin
in it where the pivot point will be. When you turn the hinges, you'll see
for yourself how the doors become offset. Five minutes of effort to satisfy
your question.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
I think I'll pick up some cheap off set knife hinges to play with and if
there is some other style recommended I'd grab them too. What other
options
are there?? I've got no more than a week before I must have my final
choice
in hand! LOL

Why waste the money? Draw a simple offset hinge, cut it out and stick a
pin
in it where the pivot point will be. When you turn the hinges, you'll see
for yourself how the doors become offset. Five minutes of effort to
satisfy
your question.

I don't consider it a waste of money... the stuff would get used at some
point for a lesser project and it has value to have actual hardware in your
hands to explore the possibilities. I bought a whole bunch of stuff when
Woodworker's Warehouse went out of business and outside of some Shaker pegs
it's pretty much all gone... I bought way too many pegs. ;~)

John

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
Gary A in KC wrote:
Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward
as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you
place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside
corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be
able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.

Chris

Don't think so. Moving it forward moves the door "forward" as it pivots
and
allows it to open 180 degrees instead of just 90 degrees.

For it to pivot 270 degrees the pivot point of the hinge has to be
entirely
outside the the cabinet (both in front and to the outside edge).

Not so. Imagine that the short arm of the "L" on the hinge is really
long, moving the pivot point far out in front of the cabinet but still
within the side edge. This has the effect of moving the door out to the
side as it swings around.

Basically
for a kinfe hinge, a straight hinge on a fully inset door allows for 90
degree opening (give or take a few degrees).

The example in the original post has full overlay doors, so a straight
knife hinge with the hinge point within the bounds of the door allows for
180 degree openings. An offset hinge with the pivot aligned with the
outside corner of the door gives the minimum hinge visibility while still
allowing for 270 degree opening.

Chris

That's what my thoughts were but I wasn't convinced I wasn't missing
something in my hands-off assessment.

Thanks

John

John - most of my comments were aimed at the inset doors I'm used to. I did
a little playing in the shop over the weekend to satisfy my curiousity.
On a partial overlay door like you're doing, I'm still not sure a knife
hinge will give you what you want. Without building a mockup (that's your
job!), it would appear the only way to get an offset hinge to work to go a
full 270 degrees would be to make the doors the exact thickness of the hinge
width or to move the hinge to the very front of the door (and exposing it's
full length). Not sure if that's the look you want and it's really not what
knife hinges were really meant to do (they're really meant to be hidden as
much as possible). Worth exploring though to see if you can get a look and
function that you like.
Curious to hear if you did your own testing this weekend and how it went?

Gary in KC

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
...

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in
message
I think I'll pick up some cheap off set knife hinges to play with and
if
there is some other style recommended I'd grab them too. What other
options
are there?? I've got no more than a week before I must have my final
choice
in hand! LOL

Why waste the money? Draw a simple offset hinge, cut it out and stick a
pin
in it where the pivot point will be. When you turn the hinges, you'll
see
for yourself how the doors become offset. Five minutes of effort to
satisfy
your question.

I don't consider it a waste of money... the stuff would get used at some
point for a lesser project and it has value to have actual hardware in
your
hands to explore the possibilities. I bought a whole bunch of stuff when
Woodworker's Warehouse went out of business and outside of some Shaker
pegs
it's pretty much all gone... I bought way too many pegs. ;~)

John

"Gary A in KC" wrote in message
...
John - most of my comments were aimed at the inset doors I'm used to. I
did
a little playing in the shop over the weekend to satisfy my curiousity.
On a partial overlay door like you're doing, I'm still not sure a knife
hinge will give you what you want. Without building a mockup (that's your
job!), it would appear the only way to get an offset hinge to work to go a
full 270 degrees would be to make the doors the exact thickness of the
hinge
width or to move the hinge to the very front of the door (and exposing
it's
full length). Not sure if that's the look you want and it's really not
what
knife hinges were really meant to do (they're really meant to be hidden as
much as possible). Worth exploring though to see if you can get a look and
function that you like.
Curious to hear if you did your own testing this weekend and how it went?

Gary,

Thanks for the follow up. I wasn't able to put my hands on any hinges
locally. In fact I was stunned to see the shelves nearly bare of many items
in my usual haunts. I guess the economy is really hurting the
woodworking/home improvement businesses. One independently owned store,
which has been around for at least several generations, informed me that
they are dropping the Minwax products as well as other lines. In fact,
everything I went there for is OOS.... pore filler, 320 grit paper, Zinsser
Seal Coat... On the way home I stopped for gas and they aren't taking credit
cards! I couldn't spend money today... both of those businesses shot
themselves in the foot by not having anything I wanted to buy.

Anyhow, I wandered way off into the weeds. ;~)

Regarding the hinges, I'm disappointed to hear your observations but
understand what you are saying. I definitely want them to all but disappear.
If there was a way for them to not show at all I'd do it! I'm going to
ponder this a bit more tonight and order something, maybe multiple styles of
somethings as I'm running out of time. Seriously running out of time!

John