There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
with.

When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he had
his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco guy,
his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know that I
was observing the death of that way of building homes.

As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter boards to
the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we participated in
the site work.

As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete
flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We framed,
we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we hung
doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and the
floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid the tile
or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made them -
onsite.

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.

The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.


Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.


Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.


Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.


I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in
the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
should have been trimmed in the first place.

But the system sucks.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
with.

When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he had
his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco guy,
his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know that I
was observing the death of that way of building homes.

As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter boards to
the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we participated in
the site work.

As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete
flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We framed,
we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we hung
doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and the
floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid the tile
or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made them -
onsite.

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.

The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.


Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.


Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.


Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.


I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in
the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
should have been trimmed in the first place.

But the system sucks.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


PERZACKERY TAWM! the new system sucks!

skeez

Tom Watson wrote:
SNIP

I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in
the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
should have been trimmed in the first place.

But the system sucks.

Boy Howdy. I spent a some time as a callow yute as an assistant for
the local carpenter. He was, of the, ahem, old skool you describe.
*Everything* was perfect, square, plumb, and finished flawlessly, even
the parts no one could see. 'Funny thing was that he was faster than
anybody else in town - little or no rework.

Then I went to work repairing maritime electronics for another old time,
no BS, boss. He taught me useful things like turning the exterior screw
heads (that held cable clamps down) for that last tightening so the
slots would be vertical and thus the water would run out of them.

Those two guys taught me more in a handful of summers than 8+ years of
college ever did. And they didn't do it because they particularly
liked me or were taking me under their wing ... they did it because, well,
that's how it's *supposed* to be done. To this day, when I have to pry
something open in my fairly new house, I met with a host of small horrors
that would have gotten my biblical beast of burden kicked by either of
the aforementioned mentors.

P.S. No antenna or radar we ever installed - or better still, repaired after
someone else had installed it incorrectly - ever blew down or got filled
with water in the wretched conditions of the N. Pacific fishing grounds.
In at least one situation I can recall, the entire crew of a big ocean
going crabber survived because our radio worked to get the Guard to them
promptly in a storm. Being nice is way overrated. Insisting your
employees do thing properly every time is way more important ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tom Watson" wrote
There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
with.

snip of a world class lesson in perception

But the system sucks.

I'm resonating ... and you hit the nail on the head (a rare occurrence these
days, literally and figuratively).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:58:49 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Tom Watson" wrote
There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate
with.

snip of a world class lesson in perception

But the system sucks.

I'm resonating ... and you hit the nail on the head (a rare occurrence these
days, literally and figuratively).


You know Swing, I'm not quite old enough yet, I still have babies to
raise for a few years, but I could grab a couple of trades guys of
similar bent and move our asses out to your country and build houses
old timey.

It would be a wonderful way to end my career. Like full circle.

I've been involved in a couple of projects where it's almost been an
All Star Team of mechanics on a building. It was like making music.

I'd like to repeat that.








Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Subject

All together now, can we say, "Levittown"?

Lew

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.

I disagree on several points but mostly this one.
A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he
would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.

You're not comparing apples to apples though.
I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used
in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the
quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still
find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use
the same crappy material.
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.

I agree.

Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

I agree here too.

But the system sucks.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Subject

All together now, can we say, "Levittown"?

Lew


"Hicksville" is better!!!

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:28:13 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally
grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.
The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through
the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his
payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to
explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.

I disagree on several points but mostly this one.
A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he
would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you
would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.

You're not comparing apples to apples though.
I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used
in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the
quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still
find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use
the same crappy material.
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.

I agree.

Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

I agree here too.

But the system sucks.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

"Mike O." wrote

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes
first.

Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy,
with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which
explores every angle and POV.

As one pundit put it about "House" ... this construction project is the
framework for exploring what happens when we put a running meter on a
dream."

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:40:01 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes
first.

We've been very busy until just recently. We have a few ahead us but
there are going to be spaces between. What we're starting to hear is
that the lenders are very stingy right now. Our builders are
telling us that instead of a couple weeks for people to get their
loans, it's taking two or three months. That's for people who will
obviously qualify and there are many more now who won't.

Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy,
with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which
explores every angle and POV.

I'll have to check it out.
I always get a kick out of the movie The Money Pit. Some things are a
bit exaggerated but I swear I've heard some of those lines on the job.

Mike O.

Somebody wrote:

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we
may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

SFWIW, we deal with manufacturers of materials for the building
industy.

One customer, a manufacturer of PVC pipe, indicates current production
is in the 40% of normal range.

Another, an MDF manufacturer started cutting back on production in the
Mar/April time frame.

It's going to take a while to clean things up.

Lew

"Mike O." wrote in message
...


When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?

I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and I've
never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm not at all
sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4 plywood.

When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home?

Thankfully, not in decades. Don't know why anyone would consider this to
have been a superior approach.

When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home?

Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability, etc.

Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes.

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded water
pipe.

If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

I really disagree. In the areas you mentioned, I don't believe you can make
a case for a superior house from these old materials. Maybe we should forgo
Romex and go back to post and wire?

I'm not an advocate of newer is better, but I'm also not an advocate of
older is better. That's usually the domain of the romantics.


Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

Mine has been the same as yours. The romantics like to remember that one
fellow who really could do it all, and attribute those skills to everyone
back then. But... I am old enough to remember a lot of those old timers -
when they were old timers back then. Seldom was there really a jack of all
trades that was a master of all of them.


--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Mike O." wrote in message
...

snip

When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home?

Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability,
etc.

Have you ever heard a toilet being flushed using both? Big difference in
the noise level.

todd

Mike O. wrote:
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?
When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on
a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in
upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school
materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this
would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.


I can't tell if this paragraph is a joke.

Are squeaky floors and root-filled sewer lines indicative of quality
construction?

I have a 40 year old house and I'm about two seconds away from ripping
up the plank flooring and gluing down OSB. I'm about 3 seconds aways
from tearing out these crappy single paned windows. I'm about four
seconds from plying off the roof, (after running some lights up in my
attic and seeing what passed for rafters and the rickety bracing those
fine "craftsmen" installed) and installing trusses.

It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't
have though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists,
floor trusses, laminated beams.

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
craftsmanship, and pride in your work.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the
leaded water pipe.

Here in Los Angeles, it is estimated that as many as 35,000 water
fountains in the school district have elevated lead levels.

SOP specifies that these fountains are to be flushed every day before
the start of school.

Doesn't always happen.

A local TV station has been making an investigative piece out of it.

Maybe we should forgo Romex and go back to post and wire?

Romex was approved when my house was built; however, union electricans
would not install it.

As a result, the house was built with knob and tube wiring.

Of course, circuit breaker load centers were considered the latest and
greatest back then.

Fortunately, there have been a few changes over the years.

Lew

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
water pipe.

Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation efforts
and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in bureaucracy.

Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but our
municipal code here won't allow it.

Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned on
me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the thing for
efficient point to point hot water distribution using these larger tankless
heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost effective, and a helluva
lot more efficient getting hot water point to point than what we ended up
being _forced_ to implement.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
water pipe.

Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation
efforts and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in
bureaucracy.

Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but
our municipal code here won't allow it.

Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned
on me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the
thing for efficient point to point hot water distribution using these
larger tankless heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost
effective, and a helluva lot more efficient getting hot water point to
point than what we ended up being _forced_ to implement.


I have heard about this.

Hasn't PEX been used for hot water distribution for many years in Europe?

"-MIKE-" wrote

It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't have
though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists, floor
trusses, laminated beams.

Actually, and IME, the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
time had never seen the difference.

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

There ya go, Bro ... couldn't' agree more.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Swingman" wrote

"Mike Marlow" wrote

Well - if old is better then we should bemoan the death of the leaded
water pipe.
Unfortunately, resistance to change lags technology and conservation
efforts and is an absolute bitch to overcome when entrenched in
bureaucracy.

Case in point ... recently wanted to use PEX for a specific purpose, but
our municipal code here won't allow it.

Outfitted a new home with multiple, "whole house" gas tankless hot water
heaters, one for up, one for down, and during the design stage it dawned
on me that a simple, easily built "manifold system" would be just the
thing for efficient point to point hot water distribution using these
larger tankless heaters ... PEX would have made that simple, cost
effective, and a helluva lot more efficient getting hot water point to
point than what we ended up being _forced_ to implement.


I have heard about this.

Hasn't PEX been used for hot water distribution for many years in Europe?



It's been allowed in Arizona for at least 15 years 'cause it's in my 15
year old house as well as every house in the neighborhood.

Tom Watson wrote in
:


Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.



Not always! There has always been crappy construction, done with an eye
toward profit rather than quality, just as there have always been
customers who want (or need) quantity over quality. I used to spend
time in a lovely little house near the beach that had the second floor
framed with 2x4 joists on 24" centers. The joists were also notched for
the grooved lath that held the house wiring. The second floor was like
trampoline! If they hadn't been relatively straight-grained virgin
Douglas fir they probably wouldn't have lasted a year.

When my parents bought their latest house the kitchen had been remodeled
with custom-built cabinets. They were pretty ugly, looking like they
were built of oak flooring. Guess what? The kitchen was remodeled by a
flooring contractor! At any rate, when my folks ripped out the old
kitchen, they found that the slightly-springy second floor was supported
by 4x4's on 4-foot centers! Not only that, when my dad was tearing out
the old wallboard he found three live electrical wires that had been
merely cut off and left to hang inside the walls. Now that's attention
to quality.

I have rehabbed a fair amount of old furniture, and I know that you know
that there is a lot of very poor craftsmanship behind those drawer
fronts and under the upholstery, and very cheap materials.

I think your safety glasses are getting a little too rosy. People are
people. Some like their jobs, are good at them, and care about the
results. Some customers know good work and are willing to pay for it.
But there are just as many people, and maybe more, that only care about
short-term profits, are only punching the clock, need something right
now at a low price, are only going to use it for a little while and get
rid of it, etc.

If you look around, you'll find that actually, housing today may not be
as charming as in the past, but in general is much safer and more
energy-efficient. Also, in general, buildings today are not meant to
last forever, so why invest excessive amounts of labor and materials in
them? If the customers decide at some point that keeping buidlings
around is better than always ripping down and rebuilding, then the "old
ways" may come back, at least in terms of high-quality craftsmanship and
materials.

But don't hold your breath.

On Nov 10, 11:42*pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

I'm not an advocate of newer is better, but I'm also not an advocate of
older is better. *That's usually the domain of the romantics.

Very well said.

Mine has been the same as yours. *The romantics like to remember that one
fellow who really could do it all, and attribute those skills to everyone
back then. *But... I am old enough to remember a lot of those old timers -
when they were old timers back then. *Seldom was there really a jack of all
trades that was a master of all of them.

I couldn't agree more. Since I have been making my living doing
construction work I have been exposed to all manner of craftsmen.
Some good, some not so good.

There are a few guys that can do a lot of things well, but seem to
excel at one aspect of construction. They will tell you what trade
they consider themselves.

But in all my years, I never met anyone that was a complete expert in
all facets of construction work. The guy running the backhoe to dig
sewer lines has never gone inside the house and put up stain grade
crown molding. I've never seen an electrician install a parquet
floor, or a plumber installing a three ply roof.

They may do those things somewhere, but I haven't seen any of them do
it on any of the commercial or residential jobs I have worked.

It seems that a lot of folks have the fanciful ideas of the old
craftsman that could do anything aren't actually in the trades
themselves. A tradesman/craftsman will certainly use a different set
of standards than will a person not completely familiar with the
different trade standards.

Robert

wrote

crown molding. I've never seen an electrician install a parquet
floor, or a plumber installing a three ply roof.

LOL! ... no, but they will cut through one before you can say "Jack
Robinson"!

One of the $cariest $ights to me, as a builder who is always onsite, is an
electrician OR plumber pulling a Sawzall out of the truck ... especially
during trim out!!

.... oh $hit!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Nov 11, 12:16*am, -MIKE- wrote:

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

How true. I have worked on several homes (100+ years old) in the
historic district of our town, and a few older commercial buildings
over the years.

People are people. Tradesmen are people.

There are some that want to excel at every aspect of their work, and
there are those that are putting in a day's work. Tearing out old
work, revamping old work, repairing old work certainly bears that
out. I have seen plenty of slipshod work in old structures.

If a guy is going to do good work, he will do it. If he is there to
collect a check and do work just good enough to get by, that's what he
will do.

It's that way in all of human nature, across all job descriptions.

Robert

Mike Marlow wrote:
"Mike O." wrote in message
...


When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used
for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout?


I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and I've
never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm not at all
sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4 plywood.

I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.


When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in
a new home?

Again - thankfully not in decades. The stuff is solid and it lasts a long
time, but so does PVC at a fraction of the price. When was the last time
you found the need for cast over PVC? I mean - in terms of durability, etc.

Cast iron is far quieter than PVC. On the other hand, some friends have
an old house with a massive main drain line, and they found out that
they weren't supposed to use low-flow toilets with it since they didn't
put out enough water to properly wash the inside of the pipes down.

Chris

We have a residential area here which was 'thrown up' about 40 years
ago. It went up really fast and cheap. The was a boom in the petro-
chemical expansion so a few contractors thought it would be a good
idea to offer some cheap housing. They had some of the local codes
amended to get this done.

We now. affectionately, refer to that sub division as Cardboard Acres.
You'd woner if I was pulling your leg if I were to tell you some
details...try these:
Aluminum wiring
2 x 2 studs, 24" on centre covered with 1/2" drywall for internal
walls (We kid around that you don't really need doors, just walk
through them.)
2-1/2" baseboard.
Res-core cabinets with MacTac finishes.
I have seen one pocket door; a single slab of 3/4" plywood. Period.

We are talking about pure **** here, people.

On cast drains.. yes they are quieter. Try finding a plumber that will
assemble new cast..properly.

My current residence was built in 1955. The tubafors ARE 2 x 4. Real
plaster. Diagonal plank sub floors. NO bounce or squeeks. The reason I
bought the house, because I knew, come what may, that would be the
last one standing. I think it would survive a direct hit by a megaton
nuke. (Okay...maybe I'm a bit optimistic here)

I don't know how far back the change occured - I suspect after Allentown
-
the first tract houses (ie. build 400 units at a time - with separate
crews
for each major task - excavation, rough plumbing, forming, pouring ,
framing and subflooring, wiring, plumbing, heating and ducting, lath &
plaster or dry wall, electrical finishing, finish carpentry, painting,
cabinet
installers, . . .) Crews did ONE thing - over and over and over - and
often
had no idea what was to be done next. So the foundation crew screw ups
were left for the framers to fix, the framers left screw ups for the
sheet
rock guys and the sheet rock guys got good at furring walls and hiding
things under mud, what screw ups they left would be taken care of by
the painters and trim carpenters, ...

I've got a house that was built in 1954 - a tract house - one of four
floor plans and two rooflines for each floor plan. I've done a LOT of
remodeling over the years - and found walls are seldom plumb or
corners square. On the other hand, I've worked on some old victorians
that probably started out square and plumb, but time and settling
have affected the original attention to detail.

Then there's my oldest, an ex-marine who became a carpenter's
helper after getting out of the marine corp. He was fortunate to
be taken under the wing of an old school "carpenter" and learned
to do things both right - AND quickly and efficiently. So when it
came time to build his own place - yes he hired subs - but he checked
their work BEFORE handing over a check - and did all the framing
himself, with help from his BIL - who was paid going wages.

Since the site is about 8 houses down the street, I'd stop buy around
lunch time to get the tour of what had gotten done - with details
of "challenges" with his solutions. Unlike his wife and mother, who
know nothing of what's involved in building a house from the dirt up,
I could appreciate what he was doing and ask leading questions which
would give him the opportunity to brag a bit. (mitered corners on
facia boards on the end of the rafters - so there's no end grain
exposed to the weather, plumb and square methods, trim out tricks,
etc..

He subsequently got his general contractor's license, passing the
test on the first try - just as the building boom was ending - and
with it, his job with an upscale remodeling outfit (MINIMUM jobs
are $175K - bathrooms, and typical jobs are $350K kitchens).

Tough times coming for The Trades - which is why he's applying
for the California Highway Patrol. There will ALWAYS be speeders
and drunk drivers so there's good job security.

The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.

Oh for the Good Old Daze?

charlie b

SNIP

The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.



I have an uncle who owns a machine shop. He is always looking
for machinists. So much so that, in the past, he's paid the
fees for kids with promise to *go* to trade school. Guess what?
They can't hack it. Specifically, they can't handle the math
(algebra and trig) that are pretty much a necessity for any
working machinist.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
....
The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools".
....
charlie b

that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority of
people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die off
and aren't available to teach any more.

regards,
charlie

On Nov 11, 2:38*pm, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
SNIP

The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". *If you want to learn problem solving and
develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. *Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. *Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.

I have an uncle who owns a machine shop. *He is always looking
for machinists. *So much so that, in the past, he's paid the
fees for kids with promise to *go* to trade school. *Guess what?
They can't hack it. *Specifically, they can't handle the math
(algebra and trig) that are pretty much a necessity for any
working machinist.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Tim Daneliuk * *
PGP Key: * * * *http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

I have a young guy working for me who has all the work habits a boss
could ask for. He's on time, works all day, even unsupervised. Never
been in trouble, not a party fiend, 20 years old, wants to marry his
girl, etc.
Can't hack basic trig. I mean very basic trig. How on earth he ever
made it through high-school, baffles me. He doesn't get that half of
1/8 is a 1/16. And it doesn't matter if he was raised on metric.
"Two little lines to the left of the bigger line" is all I can get out
of him."

I would pay for him to learn.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:19:47 -0700, charlie wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
...
The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools".
...
charlie b

that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority of
people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die off
and aren't available to teach any more.

regards,
charlie

Well charlie, you can blame a lot on today's society. It's not a matter of
getting something repaired anymore. Just throw it away and buy a new one.
Yes, this is going to be part of the reason for the downfall of the U.S.
I believe, that in the schools of today it's more important to get the
kid's to graduation so the stats are high than what is taught and learned.
Yet the U.S. cannot understand why the people in foreign countries
out-shine the U.S. kids in math and sciences.

Paul H.

--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked


http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month Only!

"PHT" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:19:47 -0700, charlie wrote:

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
...
The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools".
...
charlie b

that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
of
people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die
off
and aren't available to teach any more.

regards,
charlie

Well charlie, you can blame a lot on today's society. It's not a matter of
getting something repaired anymore. Just throw it away and buy a new one.
Yes, this is going to be part of the reason for the downfall of the U.S.
I believe, that in the schools of today it's more important to get the
kid's to graduation so the stats are high than what is taught and learned.
Yet the U.S. cannot understand why the people in foreign countries
out-shine the U.S. kids in math and sciences.

Paul H.

--
The only dumb question, is the one not asked


http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month
Only!

it's pretty hard to throw away the plumbing or electrical system in your
house, let alone go to the store to buy a new one. not too many people i
know who throw away a relatively new car and get a new one.

I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and
I've never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm
not at all sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4
plywood.

I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.


It goes without saying that a fastener is going to hold better in solid
wood.
But is there a rash of fastener pullout happening in hardwood floors?
(seriously, not facetious)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Robatoy wrote:
We have a residential area here which was 'thrown up' about 40 years
ago. It went up really fast and cheap. The was a boom in the petro-
chemical expansion so a few contractors thought it would be a good
idea to offer some cheap housing. They had some of the local codes
amended to get this done.

We now. affectionately, refer to that sub division as Cardboard Acres.
You'd woner if I was pulling your leg if I were to tell you some
details...try these:
Aluminum wiring
2 x 2 studs, 24" on centre covered with 1/2" drywall for internal
walls (We kid around that you don't really need doors, just walk
through them.)
2-1/2" baseboard.
Res-core cabinets with MacTac finishes.
I have seen one pocket door; a single slab of 3/4" plywood. Period.

We are talking about pure **** here, people.


Did at least cover up the wheels and hitch?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"charlie" wrote in message
...


that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
of people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades
die off and aren't available to teach any more.


I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are suffering
from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood coming into
the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood, and the
non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty well in terms
of continuing their own existence except in areas where a trade does not
really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty sense - plaster guys
for example. Just not a lot of call for them anymore. Can't expect that
trade to thrive anymore.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"charlie" wrote in message
...


that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college
graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get
things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority
of people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades
die off and aren't available to teach any more.


I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are
suffering from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood
coming into the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood,
and the non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty
well in terms of continuing their own existence except in areas where a
trade does not really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty
sense - plaster guys for example. Just not a lot of call for them
anymore. Can't expect that trade to thrive anymore.

--

-Mike-


my wife was a teacher for the public school system (27 years). that's simply
not encouraged anymore, and i'd expect the situation you are seeing to be
changing when the current middle school kids are getting out of high school,
in about 5-8 years.

-MIKE- wrote:
I've been around as long as most of the seasoned critters here, and
I've never seen this. Maybe it's a regional thing? Either way, I'm
not at all sure I would prize 3/4 planking on a diagonal over 3/4
plywood.
I think it was a regional thing. That said, fastener pullout and
pullthrough tests indicate that planking on a diagonal does far better
than either plywood or OSB when nailing down hardwood.


It goes without saying that a fastener is going to hold better in solid
wood.
But is there a rash of fastener pullout happening in hardwood floors?
(seriously, not facetious)

Minor fastener pullout over time is one of the causes of squeaky floors.

Chris

charlie wrote:

it's pretty hard to throw away the plumbing or electrical system in your
house, let alone go to the store to buy a new one. not too many people i
know who throw away a relatively new car and get a new one.

I saw this fairly regularly...either through leasing or else selling
their old car and getting a new one every few years.

Gets expensive quick though.

Chris

"Mike Marlow" wrote

I'm curious why people think this way. Around here the trades are
suffering from a poor economy right now, but not from a lack of new blood
coming into the trades. The unions are doing well attracting new blood,
and the non-union jobs equally so. The trades seem to be doing pretty
well in terms of continuing their own existence except in areas where a
trade does not really serve a purpose anymore, besides in a specialty
sense - plaster guys for example. Just not a lot of call for them
anymore. Can't expect that trade to thrive anymore.

I knew a couple guys who got into the plaster biz. Did the apprenticeship
and everything. Doing well too. But they only works on high end stuff and
historical buildings. Definitely a specialty now.

charlieb wrote:
snip
The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and
develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.

Oh for the Good Old Daze?

charlie b

Not only lack of Trade Schools, but also the lack of people willing to take on
apprentices. I have talked to several contractors where I live and they say they
do not want to be bothered having to teach. They rather find skilled workers.
This makes no sense to me.

My son'n law who is a stone carver (does a lot of restoration work in D.C.) has
taken on apprentices and they all end up leaving for one reason or another. Not
the money side of it, but just they want to move to different areas or decide to
go back to school for something else. So I can understand how this can be
frustrating and why many contractors decide not to do it.


Chris