Chris wrote:
charlieb wrote:
snip
The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack
of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and develop
discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer
science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand
a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and
ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have
them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails
for it.

Oh for the Good Old Daze?

charlie b

Not only lack of Trade Schools, but also the lack of people willing to
take on apprentices. I have talked to several contractors where I live
and they say they do not want to be bothered having to teach. They
rather find skilled workers. This makes no sense to me.

My son'n law who is a stone carver (does a lot of restoration work in
D.C.) has taken on apprentices and they all end up leaving for one
reason or another. Not the money side of it, but just they want to move
to different areas or decide to go back to school for something else. So
I can understand how this can be frustrating and why many contractors
decide not to do it.


Chris



There's another dimension to this. I am product of the collegiate
system and also briefly taught after grad school. There is
*tremendous* pressure to convince parents that their kids all need to
go to college. But the fact is that a university education isn't for
everyone. In no way am I saying this condescendingly. Some people are
great at theoretical math. Some people bend sheet metal with eerie
elegance. Shoving everyone into the academy does a great disservice to
people who's gifts lie in the trades, helping other people in social
services contexts, and so forth.

Jamming everyone into a strictly academic curriculum is unfair to the
students and bad for all of us. I depend a lot more on my local
plumber (who is really good) than I do the mathematician doing
manifold theory. Both have a place, but we should be encouraging our
kids to follow their gifts, not making the funding dreams of the
universities come true.

There is now considerable evidence - after nearly 50 years of research
- that academic "IQ" is highly correlated to language and mathematical
skills. These skills are innate - after billions spent and tons of
teaching theory, there has been precious little evidence you can take
people without those innate math and language skills and "teach" them.
At some level, you have this ability or you do not. By parallel
example, no amount of coaching would have made me an NBA star - it's
not in my DNA.

But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands. This
will never change until professional academics - especially in the
administrative end of things - are forced to unclog their own sewers ...



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Nov 12, 12:05*am, Tim Daneliuk wrote:

SNIP of other true statements...

But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands.

It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
commercial work to residential.

They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that what
you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
wanted more."

Heard it more than once.

I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer so
I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son didn't
wind up like me.

No insult there, eh?

And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.

Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by parents,
educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
last resort to make your living with your hands these days.

A sad comment on our society in my opinion.

Robert

wrote:
On Nov 12, 12:05 am, Tim Daneliuk wrote:

SNIP of other true statements...

But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will
hear them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that
the
aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.)
We
all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find
that thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a
cultural and academic stigma attached to people who work with their
hands.

It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
commercial work to residential.

They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that
what
you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
wanted more."

Heard it more than once.

I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer
so
I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son
didn't
wind up like me.

No insult there, eh?

And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.

Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by
parents,
educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
last resort to make your living with your hands these days.

A sad comment on our society in my opinion.

Yeah. When I was in high school I told my parents that I wanted to be
a mechanic. They went ballistic. Then I went to college and it
pretty much ruined me.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:18:35 -0600, Mike O. wrote:




Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my
house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I
started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and
around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they
were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience
must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.


We weren't framers, Mike. We were carpenters.

That is the point that I am trying to get to.

When people respond by saying that the trade got fractionated into
framers, finishers, flooring guys, etc. - I reject that.

We were trained to be carpenters.

Carpenters laid out the site and did the framing and did the finish
and often did the paint in those days.

Accountability was the deal.

You could not dodge your responsibility because you were the guy to
pull off the next step.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:52:14 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"-MIKE-" wrote

It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point
board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I
had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't have
though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists, floor
trusses, laminated beams.

Actually, and IME, the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
time had never seen the difference.

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill,
craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

There ya go, Bro ... couldn't' agree more.


I spent a lot of time in my youth correcting the problems created by
the building boom that happened after the second world war.

Skimpy ply, 24" centers, 2 x 3 walls, etc.


It wasn't the seventies that did it.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:05:31 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Nov 12, 12:05*am, Tim Daneliuk wrote:

SNIP of other true statements...

But the universities pound the message of "If your kid is not a
college grad, they'll never succeed" message into anyone who will hear
them. (It no doubt annoys their fully tenured faculties that the
aforementioned plumber makes more than the dean of their college.) We
all have our "thing". Our job as parents is to help our kids find that
thing and encourage them to pursue it. Sadly, there is a cultural and
academic stigma attached to people who work with their hands.

It hasn't happened in the last few years, but there have been many
times I heard parents talking to their kids when I switched from
commercial work to residential.

They would ask with sincerity, or with a downright sneer in their
voice: "Do you want to wind up like those guys in there? Is that what
you want? If that's the case, you might as well start flipping
burgers now if that's all you want out of your life. We thought you
wanted more."

Heard it more than once.

I even had a homeowner that had a son that was really interested in
working in construction. He wanted me to hire his son for a summer so
I could dog the hell out of him to make him stay in college. He
actually asked me to do that, so that I could make sure his son didn't
wind up like me.

No insult there, eh?

And how many times did I hear in my youth "well, the difference
between you and me Robert, is that I make my living with my head and
you use your hands." That statement alone should let you know how
arrogant and stupid the educators of our country have become.

Everything you posted is true. Kids/teenagers are taught by parents,
educators and hammered with peer pressure that it is shameful, or a
last resort to make your living with your hands these days.

A sad comment on our society in my opinion.

Robert


Here is where we come to the core of the problem.

I'm actually not smart enough to have helped create the current
financial mess.

You need an MBA to do that kind of damage.

I'm not smart enough to understand how I can make a loan to a person
who has no hope of paying it back and call that a good day at work.

I'm not smart enough to loan money to a builder who has one foot in
the financial grave and think that I have done a good deed that day.

I'm not smart enough to give money to a company that has already
proved themselves to be improvident.

I guess I just don't understand finance.

What I do understand is that my house and my vehicles are paid for.

I do understand that my eleven and sixteen year old children can go to
whatever college they are fortunate enough to get into.

I do understand that the only reason that I showed up to work today
was to make sure that my wife would have a comfortable retirement -
because I will surely die before her because I have nothing left to
worry about.

That's all I know.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
SNIP

Here is where we come to the core of the problem.

I'm actually not smart enough to have helped create the current
financial mess.

You need an MBA to do that kind of damage.

I'm not smart enough to understand how I can make a loan to a person
who has no hope of paying it back and call that a good day at work.

I'm not smart enough to loan money to a builder who has one foot in
the financial grave and think that I have done a good deed that day.

I'm not smart enough to give money to a company that has already
proved themselves to be improvident.

I guess I just don't understand finance.

Me either. Here's what I don't understand:

How can you be on the public dole and think you should take
out a loan on a house.

How can you earn $N per year, and be $N/2 in credit card debt?

How does any responsible person see a flat screen TV, a luxury
car, a fabulous vacation, a second home, or a boat as an
entitlement?

How is it that it's wrong to bail out Wall Street (it is), but
not wrong to bail out the lazy, the greedy, and those lacking
fiscal self-control on Main Street - cuz, you know what, they're
both flat out wrong.


What I do understand is that my house and my vehicles are paid for.

I do understand that my eleven and sixteen year old children can go to
whatever college they are fortunate enough to get into.

What if they do not want to? Are you cool with them going into the
trades, opening a hair salon, becoming a musician/entertainer/comic,
or wherever their abilities take them? If you are, good for you.
If you're not, rethink this. The university system is increasingly
a scam intended to scare parents into parting with $100k+ per student
to ensure their "success" ... only it often does not work out that
way.



I do understand that the only reason that I showed up to work today
was to make sure that my wife would have a comfortable retirement -
because I will surely die before her because I have nothing left to
worry about.

That's all I know.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tom Watson" wrote

the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that
shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the
time had never seen the difference.

It wasn't the seventies that did it.

Read that again ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Amen, Tom. I always worked commercial, but same story. I like to
tell that the same guys dug the ditches and hung the last brass
doorknob. Electricians, masons,HVAC, and plumbers were usually
the only subs on the job.

When did I have to decide if I needed a finish carpenter, form
carpenter, or computer flooring carpenter? I guess it just
evolved, but I agree there were better buildings built back when.
Every carpenter could finish a bit of concrete or set concealed
hinges in a walnut trimmed Forms & Surfaces door, and probably had
the tools with him to do it.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
There are a fair number of guys around here that this will
resonate
with.

When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he
had
his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco
guy,
his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know
that I
was observing the death of that way of building homes.

As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter
boards to
the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we
participated in
the site work.

As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete
flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We
framed,
we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we
hung
doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and
the
floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid
the tile
or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made
them -
onsite.

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been
eternally
grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.

The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up
through
the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on
his
payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys
tried to
explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.


Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your
responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step
and you
would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess
would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.


Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.


Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised
to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.


I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good
living in
the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they
should have been trimmed in the first place.

But the system sucks.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news:4fhsu5-u9e.ln1
@ozzie.tundraware.com:

I completely understand your feelings about the below. I feel the same
way, i.e. If you don't have the backup, or might not have in a downturn,
don't go into debt if you can possibly avoid it.

Here's what I don't understand:

How can you be on the public dole and think you should take
out a loan on a house.

As you have read here, people asking for a mortgage (for a house they
planned to buy and could nicely afford) were asked by the banker why they
didn't buy a much more expensive house since they qualified for it.
IMNSHO that constitutes something close to enabling irresponsible
financial transactions.

How can you earn $N per year, and be $N/2 in credit card debt?

I don't know. Trying to live at the level I'm entitled to, despite being
out of work longer than expected? It might be easier to get there if
you're not very careful, and if your home is going to be worth much more
next year, what's the problem? Note that I'm not really advocating
this!!!!


How does any responsible person see a flat screen TV, a luxury
car, a fabulous vacation, a second home, or a boat as an
entitlement?

See above

How is it that it's wrong to bail out Wall Street (it is), but
not wrong to bail out the lazy, the greedy, and those lacking
fiscal self-control on Main Street - cuz, you know what, they're
both flat out wrong.

It has something to do with keeping the economy going. Don't you
remember how the economists were saying that despite the slowdown then
and then, the economy surprisingly wasn't going into recessions since the
consumers kept on spending? Well, now with the fear mongering even
greater than necessary, the consumer is stopping the spending, and the
recession is getting much worse.

I don't have any solutions ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Nov 13, 7:34*am, Han wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

the consumer is stopping the spending, and the
recession is getting much worse.

http://www.juggling.org/pics/Pics/herman2.gif

I agree with that view.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:35:30 -0600, "DanG" wrote:

Every carpenter could finish a bit of concrete or set concealed
hinges in a walnut trimmed Forms & Surfaces door, and probably had
the tools with him to do it.

This was never really true. Sure, every carpenter was expected to do
everything, but most of them were not terribly skilled at all of it.
When I was doing a lot of remodeling work I was into a lot of houses
built around 1900. There was some very good work in them and a lot of
rather shoddy work, sometimes in the same house. The truth is that
even in those days there were guys who specialized in certain things
simply because they were more skilled at them. That specialization
actually goes back thousands of years.

I think the main difference in quality is that the cost of doing it
right has risen to the point it isn't worth doing for most people.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

In article ,
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Romex was approved when my house was built; however, union electricans
would not install it.

As a result, the house was built with knob and tube wiring.

Of course, circuit breaker load centers were considered the latest and
greatest back then.

Fortunately, there have been a few changes over the years.

The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.

My house is around 100 years old and has had at least five "generations"
of wiring installed.

The original wiring was knob and tube, some of which my electricians
were perfectly happy to connect to the new breaker panel they installed
when I moved in. It never caused a problem, but of course there wasn't
much load on it, only lights.

The second generation was these pairs of giant cables, some 3/4 inch
thick, with tiny wires wrapped in paper inside the thick rubber cable.
Some of this was tied into the knob and tube.

Then there was the first generation of Romex, which was a cloth covered
cable with a very thin (16 or 18 gauge) grounding wire.

Then the next generation of Romex was in a plastic jacket, but also with
the smaller ground wire.

Finally there was the modern Romex with all the wires the same size. In
case you're wondering, all the older stuff has been either disconnected
or removed entirely.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA
http://www.gallerytungsten.com

"Jedd Haas" wrote:

The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.

This was current generation Romex.

Labor unions were at the height of their power back then.(1963).

It was just one of many "feather bedding" techniques employed by the
trades back then.

Back then you had "union" and "non-union" contractors.

Made for an interesting like in an AFofL/CIO community.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Jedd Haas" wrote:

The "first generation" of Romex may not have been all that great.

This was current generation Romex.

Labor unions were at the height of their power back then.(1963).

It was just one of many "feather bedding" techniques employed by the
trades back then.

Back then you had "union" and "non-union" contractors.

Made for an interesting like in an AFofL/CIO community.

Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians for
that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides. Once
they got experience with the modern type that was two
plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
type would be pretty new.

The stuff had existed since 1922 and been in the code since at least
1928, so electricians in '63 would have had ample (bad) experience of
it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians for
that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides.
Once
they got experience with the modern type that was two
plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
type would be pretty new.

No problem installing Romex in a non-union area.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Uh, Lew, even in the '60s many electricians, and non-electrcians
for
that matter, were suspicious of Romex, which prior to that time had
been pretty crappy and was miserable stuff to work with besides.
Once
they got experience with the modern type that was two
plastic-insulated conductors in a plastic sheath that was both
reliable and easy to work with and compared to the older stuff just
reeked of quality most changed their tune quickly, but in '63 that
type would be pretty new.

No problem installing Romex in a non-union area.

You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?

No, being in the industry made finding the good stuff NBD.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

You've never actually installed the old stuff, have you?

No, being in the industry made finding the good stuff NBD.

Which is fine once the "good stuff" came out. If you ever have to
replace Romex from the '40s or '50s I think you'll see why it had a
bad reputation.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Nov 10, 10:40*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Mike O." wrote

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may
not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that
one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as
long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter
gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes
first.

Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy,
with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by
Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which
explores every angle and POV.

As one pundit put it about "House" ... this construction project is the
framework for exploring what happens when we put a running meter on a
dream."

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think what happened is the dream changed. My mother was raised with
the idea that a house was a home, something she should get as soon as
possible, with as small a mortgage as possible, with as large a down
payment as possible.

I felt the same way, though I put myself in circumstances that made
the whole deal impossible until something over 20 years ago.

But others, no. Buy it as an investment, fewest bucks in the bucket
wins, flip it in 2-3 years, and do it over again, larger.

That does not make for carefully examined construction. It makes for a
carefully examined payment book.

"Charlie Self"

I think what happened is the dream changed. My mother was raised with
the idea that a house was a home, something she should get as soon as
possible, with as small a mortgage as possible, with as large a down
payment as possible.

I felt the same way, though I put myself in circumstances that made
the whole deal impossible until something over 20 years ago.

But others, no. Buy it as an investment, fewest bucks in the bucket
wins, flip it in 2-3 years, and do it over again, larger.

That does not make for carefully examined construction. It makes for a
carefully examined payment book.

Don't get me started ...

Part of the "dream" changed due to the fact that a 'house as a home' has
been subverted by local taxing authorities into a source of increasing
revenue. For all practical/legal purposes you no longer own your home, you
are renting it from the government, who uses it as a cash cow.

Just stop paying your yearly rent (property taxes) and see how long you
retain "ownership" of _your_ "home".

In addition, if it happens that your "home" is in an area that the "real
estate" industry has touted as desirable, and thus driven up real estate
property values beyond reason, forget about staying in it after your
retirement without your estate being subjected to usurious interest on any
old age deferral the benevolent taxing authority may grant out of the
goodness of their heart.

Once again we have allowed ourselves to be screwed by our elected
representatives who have managed to create a situation whereby they are not
accountable for an increase in the tax rate to the electorate, but, instead,
can increase taxes (without representation) by virtue of the creation of an
"appraisal district", which increases the appraised value, and thus your
taxes, based on transactions run ever higher by the greed of the "real
estate" industry.

After all, the sheeple get what they deserve ... fleeced.

For, like sheep, that is ultimately their purpose ... insofar as government
is concerned.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Tom Watson wrote:



Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions. They buy
perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them. Then they put up
really big crap. They are just finishing one next door. 8500 sq ft. My wife
and I walked through it today. I was appalled. While many of the materials
were expensive, the workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain,
sloppy paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't tolerate that
kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our houses aren't big, they
aren't fancy, but they are honest.

-- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:



Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one next
door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.

Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents' antebellum
Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
buffoons.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Douglas Johnson wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:



Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one next
door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.

Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents' antebellum
Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
buffoons.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i guess it all
depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.

my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed beams at
5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a wash that gets
4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was described by the previous
owner as having windows that shook and let the gusts blow through and empty
the dust out when it's windy.

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings, to
odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's not
much better.

i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

"charlie" wrote

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings,
to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's
not much better.

I know. My wife loves everything Frank Loyd Wright. We have numerous books
etc, that detail his work. Along with various accounts of people who lived
in his houses. Many of the houses were cold and hard to heat. Falling
Water was falling into the creek and had to be rescued with big bucks
because he did not use reinforced concrete for the support beams.

I personally love the way his stuff LOOKS. The function is something else.
I never understood why he insisted on uncomfortable furniture. It is very
much an artist perspective. Beauty is in the visual presentation. The human
needs are not really addressed. And as occupants in his art, we are all
expected to suffer. For art's sake.

charlie wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Douglas Johnson wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:



Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one
next
door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.

Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents'
antebellum
Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
buffoons.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i
guess
it all depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.

my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed
beams at 5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a
wash that gets 4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was
described by the previous owner as having windows that shook and let
the gusts blow through and empty the dust out when it's windy.

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low
ceilings, to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much
insulation, it's not much better.

i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

The difference between a Wright house and an ordinary house is that
the ordinary house may _have_ character but a Wright house _is_ a
character.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Lee Michaels" wrote

"charlie" wrote

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low ceilings,
to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much insulation, it's
not much better.

I know. My wife loves everything Frank Loyd Wright. We have numerous books
etc, that detail his work. Along with various accounts of people who
lived in his houses. Many of the houses were cold and hard to heat.
Falling Water was falling into the creek and had to be rescued with big
bucks because he did not use reinforced concrete for the support beams.

I personally love the way his stuff LOOKS. The function is something
else. I never understood why he insisted on uncomfortable furniture. It
is very much an artist perspective. Beauty is in the visual presentation.
The human needs are not really addressed. And as occupants in his art, we
are all expected to suffer. For art's sake.

IMNSHO, FLW ushered in the Idiot Age ... women should thank their lucky
stars he wasn't designing tampons.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

charlie wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Douglas Johnson wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:



Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to
understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

Unfortunately, my neighborhood has been infected with McMansions.
They buy perfectly good houses and drive a bulldozer through them.
Then they put up really big crap. They are just finishing one
next
door. 8500 sq ft. My wife and I walked through it today. I was
appalled. While many of the materials were expensive, the
workmanship was awful. 1/8" gaps in trim, blotchy stain, sloppy
paint...

I am a volunteer electrician for Habitat for Humanity. We don't
tolerate that kind of work and the house is 1/30 the price. Our
houses aren't big, they aren't fancy, but they are honest.

Friend of mine used to spend summers at her grandparents'
antebellum
Southern mansion that is now a museum. She lives in the
Wright-disciple house her architect father designed and built. Her
neigbors are tearing down all the surrounding houses and putting up
McMansions and they don't have a clue why she thinks they're all
buffoons.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



you know, i've heard that wright disciple comment before, but i
guess
it all depends on the disciple and how brainwashed they become.

my neighbor house is one such. besides a first floor with exposed
beams at 5'10" off the finished floor, and building it directly in a
wash that gets 4' of water through it about every 2 years, it was
described by the previous owner as having windows that shook and let
the gusts blow through and empty the dust out when it's windy.

i've toured the nearby wright mansion/school in scottsdale, az. from
uncomfortable furniture (that couldn't be changed out), to low
ceilings, to odd angularities, to thin windows/walls with not much
insulation, it's not much better.

i take that type of recommendation with a grain of salt now.

By the way, the granparents' house (or more specifically the yard) has
a Web site:

http://www.lockerlyarboretum.org/

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)