I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?
Regards. -Guy

Guy LaRochelle wrote:

I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to
learn about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different
styles. Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most
widely used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right
direction? Regards. -Guy

Really depends on what you want to do with the plane once you have it.

Personally, I'd suggest starting with:

* assorted quality sandpapers ranging from 60 grit to 2000 grit with as many
grits in between as possible

* a flat piece of glass, granite, marble, etc.

* a honing guide, such as the Veritas

(assuming you don't already have a sharpening setup... there's more than
one way to do this of course, but this is cheap and easy... for more
details, look into the Scary Sharp(tm) method)

Once you're capable of sharpening the iron, you're ready for a hand plane.
I'd probably start with a #5. If no #5 is readily available, a #4 is also
a good starting place. I hand surface semi-rough lumber with nothing more
than one of each, but I have to re-adjust them to do different jobs
constantly.

I suggest eBay or Patrick Leach or such for Stanleys. Try to get an old
one. Older is better, but you're after a user, so it doesn't matter if
it's ugly as long as all the parts are there. The new ones from Stanley
are pretty crappy, so an old one is definitely better than a new one. Both
will need some attention.

If you got a rust bucket, and if you have a battery charger, you can use the
magic of electrolysis to clean it up. Whether you bought an old Stanley or
a new one, the sole will probably need some (or a lot of) flattening, which
can be done on the same piece of glass/granite/marble, with the same
sandpaper you use for sharpening the iron. (This job sucks! Luckily, it
only needs doing once.)

Or spare yourself all the trouble and spend some bucks on a new one from
Veritas or such. Those $220 planes seem a lot cheaper once you've used up
an entire pack of 60 grit paper flattening the sole on an old, rusty plane.

Once you get it cleaned up and the iron is sharp, the rest is pretty easy.
Just fiddle with it and make curlies come out.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Guy LaRochelle" wrote in message
...
I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to
learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?
Regards. -Guy



I really depends on your woodworking style and what you want to achieve. As
you say, there are a great variety of planes that can be had. For many
woodworkers, you want to start with the basics. Perhaps the most useful
first plane is a low angle block plane with an adjustable mouth. The
Stanley number for this model was 60 1/2, but that may vary by maker. The
block planes have fewer parts to tune, so are easier to get to know. You
would use this plane for small, trimming jobs. They are especially well
designed for trimming end grain, but a small block plane is just nice to
have around for all sorts of trimming jobs.

That's where I suggest you start. If you get the bug, you may want to read
Garrett Hack's Handplane Book. This will give you a good tutorial on the
different types of planes and what they are used for, how to tune them up
and the correct techniques for getting good performance. He also discusses
many of the jigs that go along with handplaning.

Cheers,
Eric

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:08:43 -0500, Silvan
wrote:


Personally, I'd suggest starting with:

* assorted quality sandpapers ranging from 60 grit to 2000 grit with as many
grits in between as possible

- Snip some good advice -

I'd like to add:

The Handplane Book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561583170/qid=1073737929//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5997910-6893431?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's out of print, so you'll need to check your local library, or buy
it used.

Barry

Guy LaRochelle wrote:
I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?

www.supertool.com is a good starting place. Check the Blood & Gore
link. If you have further questions, contact me via e-mail to save
bandwidth or DAGS this NG for planes.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

In article ,
"Guy LaRochelle" wrote:

I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?
Regards. -Guy



I'd start with a block plane such as a Stanley #60 or #220. These show
up on eBay all time for prices under $20. The problem with eBay is it's
hard to tell what shape the tool is going to be in, and sometimes
historical/collector interest drive the prices up way beyond what value
the item really has as a working tool.

Highland Hardware is currently selling a Stanley #9-1/2 block plane on
sale for $30. I'm not sure of the subtle differences between a #9-1/2,
#60, and the #220, but they're all basic block planes and all perfectly
good as a first plane to buy. At $30, it's hard to go too far wrong,
and unlike eBay, you know what you're getting.

If you don't mind spending a bit more money, Lee Valley (Veritas) and
Lie-Nelson sell their own high-end versions of block planes for about
$100. These are very nice tools, but quite a jump up in price and
probably not what you're looking for as a first item to own.

At this point, what you want to do is get a decent item at a reasonable
price and spend some time learning how to use, adjust, and sharpen it.

I wouldn't waste my time with anything they sell in Home Depot or
similar consumer outlets. The Bucks Brothers stuff is pure junk, and
much of the Stanley stuff you'll find there is their economy line of
tools (i.e. junk). I'd go with the #9-1/2 from HH for $30.

Thanks for all the info guys............much appreciated. Can someone
explain what #4, #5, #9.........all means? Then someone will come out with
#220...................quite a spread in the numbers and I don't understand
the relationship. It's easy to figure out 6" or 8" jointer but this is not
making any sense to me. Regards. -Guy



"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Guy LaRochelle wrote:

I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to
learn about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different
styles. Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and
most
widely used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right
direction? Regards. -Guy

Really depends on what you want to do with the plane once you have it.

Personally, I'd suggest starting with:

* assorted quality sandpapers ranging from 60 grit to 2000 grit with as
many
grits in between as possible

* a flat piece of glass, granite, marble, etc.

* a honing guide, such as the Veritas

(assuming you don't already have a sharpening setup... there's more than
one way to do this of course, but this is cheap and easy... for more
details, look into the Scary Sharp(tm) method)

Once you're capable of sharpening the iron, you're ready for a hand plane.
I'd probably start with a #5. If no #5 is readily available, a #4 is also
a good starting place. I hand surface semi-rough lumber with nothing more
than one of each, but I have to re-adjust them to do different jobs
constantly.

I suggest eBay or Patrick Leach or such for Stanleys. Try to get an old
one. Older is better, but you're after a user, so it doesn't matter if
it's ugly as long as all the parts are there. The new ones from Stanley
are pretty crappy, so an old one is definitely better than a new one.
Both
will need some attention.

If you got a rust bucket, and if you have a battery charger, you can use
the
magic of electrolysis to clean it up. Whether you bought an old Stanley
or
a new one, the sole will probably need some (or a lot of) flattening,
which
can be done on the same piece of glass/granite/marble, with the same
sandpaper you use for sharpening the iron. (This job sucks! Luckily, it
only needs doing once.)

Or spare yourself all the trouble and spend some bucks on a new one from
Veritas or such. Those $220 planes seem a lot cheaper once you've used up
an entire pack of 60 grit paper flattening the sole on an old, rusty
plane.

Once you get it cleaned up and the iron is sharp, the rest is pretty easy.
Just fiddle with it and make curlies come out.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:

- Snip some good advice -

The Handplane Book

It's out of print, so you'll need to check your local library, or buy
it used.

It may indeed be out of print, but I live in a fairly small town, population
50,000 or so, pretty far from Big City USA. I found this book in hardback
at Books-A-Million and Waldenbooks. Barnes & Noble had a much cheaper
paperback version. They all had several copies in stock before Christmas.
I can't say that's still true.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Guy LaRochelle wrote:
Thanks for all the info guys............much appreciated. Can someone
explain what #4, #5, #9.........all means? Then someone will come out with
#220...................quite a spread in the numbers and I don't understand
the relationship. It's easy to figure out 6" or 8" jointer but this is not
making any sense to me. Regards. -Guy

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan2.htm
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan14.htm

You need to go to the website www.supertool.com and do some reading. It
will solve most, if not all, your questions. The index to plane numbers
is at: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm

Asking w/o being willing to follow leads won't make you popular.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

I looked at that website and I think if I was a collector it would be great
info. I still didn't really get an explanation of how these plane numbers
(#4, #5, #220.......) come to be. From what I can see if I was a renowned
plane builder I could build a plane and call it a #10000 and that would be
just fine. If it became popular someone else could come along and build
there version of it and also call a #10000. Next thing you know that style
of plane becomes the industry standard as a #10000. Correct? Regards. -Guy



wrote in message ...
Guy LaRochelle wrote:
Thanks for all the info guys............much appreciated. Can someone
explain what #4, #5, #9.........all means? Then someone will come out
with
#220...................quite a spread in the numbers and I don't
understand
the relationship. It's easy to figure out 6" or 8" jointer but this is
not
making any sense to me. Regards. -Guy

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan2.htm
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan14.htm

You need to go to the website www.supertool.com and do some reading. It
will solve most, if not all, your questions. The index to plane numbers
is at: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm

Asking w/o being willing to follow leads won't make you popular.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:05:07 -0600, "Guy LaRochelle"
wrote:

Can someone
explain what #4, #5, #9.........all means? Then someone will come out with
#220...................quite a spread in the numbers and I don't understand
the relationship.

Angle subtended between the moon and Sirius on the night the first
castings were poured. It's pretty much arbitrary.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm
will give you a good lookup for the types of Stanley around

http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingp...planeindex.htm
Jeff Gorman's planing notes will tell you more about how to use them

In article ,
Guy LaRochelle wrote:
I looked at that website and I think if I was a collector it would be great
info. I still didn't really get an explanation of how these plane numbers
(#4, #5, #220.......) come to be. From what I can see if I was a renowned
plane builder I could build a plane and call it a #10000 and that would be
just fine. If it became popular someone else could come along and build
there version of it and also call a #10000. Next thing you know that style
of plane becomes the industry standard as a #10000. Correct? Regards. -Guy


There's no rhyme or reason to the numbering. 90% of the conversations
can be followed by remembering a few of Stanley's numbers:

#4 is a smoothing plane used for, uhm, smoothing
#5 is a jack plane used for fairly rough work
#6 is a bit longer than the jack plane
#7 is a jointer plane for leveling surfaces and getting straight edges
#8 is a longer version of the #7

#9-1/2, #60, #60-1/2, #65 are various incarnations of block planes

Manufacturers other than Stanley have their own numbering systems.
People use terms like #4 & #5 because you can't go to a flea market
or antique store without tripping over a Stanley bench plane. Millions
were produced. Heck, when I started letting coworkers and relatives
know that I was into hand planes I was given at least two of all the
above mentioned planes. Seems everyone had a few kicking around their
garage or attic because their father or grandfather had one for
trimming doors.

--
Scott Post http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/

Sounds like the same rules and standards as the first versions of Microsoft
Windows and windows applications (meaning there were no rules or standards)
grin. Thanks for the info. Regards. -Guy



There's no rhyme or reason to the numbering. 90% of the conversations
can be followed by remembering a few of Stanley's numbers:

#4 is a smoothing plane used for, uhm, smoothing
#5 is a jack plane used for fairly rough work
#6 is a bit longer than the jack plane
#7 is a jointer plane for leveling surfaces and getting straight edges
#8 is a longer version of the #7

#9-1/2, #60, #60-1/2, #65 are various incarnations of block planes

Manufacturers other than Stanley have their own numbering systems.
People use terms like #4 & #5 because you can't go to a flea market
or antique store without tripping over a Stanley bench plane. Millions
were produced. Heck, when I started letting coworkers and relatives
know that I was into hand planes I was given at least two of all the
above mentioned planes. Seems everyone had a few kicking around their
garage or attic because their father or grandfather had one for
trimming doors.

--
Scott Post
http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/

Guy LaRochelle wrote:
Sounds like the same rules and standards as the first versions of Microsoft
Windows and windows applications (meaning there were no rules or standards)
grin. Thanks for the info. Regards. -Guy

You're pretty close to right with the analogy. Stanley is the original
BORG. They either bought out, or run into the ground just about all the
competition. Since they were the largest, amny of the competitors just
used the Stanley numbering sequence on their planes. Some added a 0 in
front or used the length of the plane, but the reality is that the
Stanley numbers became the defacto standard. Memorize the site
word-for-word, you WILL be tested, %-) and there shouldn't be any
problems. You'll also be required to memorize the Miller's Falls and
Sargent numbers and be able to cross reference them at a moment's
notice. Oh yeah, there are about 20 "Types" of each number so you'll
need to memorixe the type study as well. There you go, that should keep
you busy for the rest of the afternoon. BSEG

Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

"Guy LaRochelle" wrote in message ...
I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?
Regards. -Guy

As somebody who just got started into handplanes (and traditonal
woodworking in general) about 18 months ago, I can tell you what
planes I've acquired, and which I use the most.

First off, you have to decide whether you prefer to buy brand new
planes, or buy older planes and tune them up. Some of the new stuff
(specifically Lie-Nielsen and Veritas) is good stuff, while there are
other brands that aren't go great. Many woodworkers prefer older (as
in pre-1960 or so) planes, as the quality was usually pretty good and
they can be purchased for less than LN or Veritas. You'll need to
learn how to tune them up to work well though.

In all cases, you'll need to learn how to sharpen blades properly.
It's not difficult, and there are many methods for doing this. I
personally use the Scary Sharp system, as it's inexpensive and
effective.

Now, onto which planes to get. As others have stated, a block plane
is pretty much necessary for any kind of woodworking, even if you're
the biggest power tool junkie on the planet. They're useful for a
variety of trimming operations. There's both a "standard" block
plane, and a "low angle" block plane. The principle difference is
that the blade sits at a lower angle in the plane than a "standard"
block plane, which makes it better for trimming end grain. As you
learn more about handplanes, you'll find that the angle at which the
blade sits in the plane, as well as the angle you sharpen your blades
at, makes a big difference in how well the plane works on various
woods. I own a low angle block plane, made by Veritas.

The two planes I probably use the most (and would recommend you get
next) are old Stanley bench planes: a #4 smoothing plane and a #7
jointer plane. As the name suggests, a #4 is usually used for final
smoothing of flat surfaces prior to finishing. A #7 plane does a lot
of different things, including jointing the edges of boards for edge
gluing and getting the faces of boards flat. It's 22" long, and the
length is what allows it to make surfaces flat. A #4 would follow the
dips and high spots on a board, thereby not actually flatting the
board. A #7 spans the high spots, planing them flat. Both of mine
are old Stanleys, dating from the 1920s. Even if you do everything
else with power tools, a #4 will allow you to quickly put a very
smooth finish on boards, eliminating the ripples from planers and
negating the need for sanding.

I also have a Stanley #5 jack plane, and the Millers Falls equivalent
of the #3 plane. The #5 is kind of a "jack-of-all-trades" bench
plane, and is the one you want if you can only afford to buy one
plane. I'll use it to joint or flatten narrow or short boards, since
it's lighter than the #7 and won't tire me out as quickly. It can
also be used as a smoother in a pinch. The #3 is a smaller smoother
than the #4, and I honestly don't use it much. I'll use to smooth a
really small board, or pull it out when my #4 is getting a bit dull.

Other planes I own include a Veritas medium shoulder plane (for fine
trimming of tenon shoulders and cheeks, or flatting the bottoms of
rabbets/dados/grooves), a Stanley #78 rabbeting plane (for making
rabbets on the edges of boards), a #71 router plane (for smoothing the
bottoms of dados and the such), a #48 tongue-and-groove plane (for
making tongues and grooves on the edges of boards), a #79 side rabbet
plane (for widening dados and grooves), and a Stanley #45 combination
plane (for making all sorts of dados/grooves, reeding, beading, etc.).
All of these planes are really for people who prefer to do their
woodworking by hand, and as such I wouldn't recommend their purchase
unless you really take a liking to working with handplanes. They all
require a fair amount of practice to master, especially the #45.

As others have said, Garrett Hack's "The Handplane Book" is a great
reference. It should be the first book you get on the subject.

You live in a metropolis. We have about 2000 here.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
It may indeed be out of print, but I live in a fairly small town,
population
50,000 or so,

"Guy LaRochelle" writes:

Sounds like the same rules and standards as the first versions of Microsoft
Windows and windows applications (meaning there were no rules or standards)
grin. Thanks for the info. Regards. -Guy

In germany things are (of course!) different: Plane types adhere to a
standard (or several), there is a DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm) for
each type of plane, so the planes from different manufacurers look
rather similar. Also the planes dont have a number, rather a name,
for example theyare called something like "Rauhbank" (jointer plane),
according to DIN 7311 with iron according to DIN 5145


--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Thanks for the info.....................much appreciated. Regards. -Guy



"Me" wrote in message
m...
"Guy LaRochelle" wrote in message
...
I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to
learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different
styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most
widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right
direction?
Regards. -Guy

As somebody who just got started into handplanes (and traditonal
woodworking in general) about 18 months ago, I can tell you what
planes I've acquired, and which I use the most.

First off, you have to decide whether you prefer to buy brand new
planes, or buy older planes and tune them up. Some of the new stuff
(specifically Lie-Nielsen and Veritas) is good stuff, while there are
other brands that aren't go great. Many woodworkers prefer older (as
in pre-1960 or so) planes, as the quality was usually pretty good and
they can be purchased for less than LN or Veritas. You'll need to
learn how to tune them up to work well though.

In all cases, you'll need to learn how to sharpen blades properly.
It's not difficult, and there are many methods for doing this. I
personally use the Scary Sharp system, as it's inexpensive and
effective.

Now, onto which planes to get. As others have stated, a block plane
is pretty much necessary for any kind of woodworking, even if you're
the biggest power tool junkie on the planet. They're useful for a
variety of trimming operations. There's both a "standard" block
plane, and a "low angle" block plane. The principle difference is
that the blade sits at a lower angle in the plane than a "standard"
block plane, which makes it better for trimming end grain. As you
learn more about handplanes, you'll find that the angle at which the
blade sits in the plane, as well as the angle you sharpen your blades
at, makes a big difference in how well the plane works on various
woods. I own a low angle block plane, made by Veritas.

The two planes I probably use the most (and would recommend you get
next) are old Stanley bench planes: a #4 smoothing plane and a #7
jointer plane. As the name suggests, a #4 is usually used for final
smoothing of flat surfaces prior to finishing. A #7 plane does a lot
of different things, including jointing the edges of boards for edge
gluing and getting the faces of boards flat. It's 22" long, and the
length is what allows it to make surfaces flat. A #4 would follow the
dips and high spots on a board, thereby not actually flatting the
board. A #7 spans the high spots, planing them flat. Both of mine
are old Stanleys, dating from the 1920s. Even if you do everything
else with power tools, a #4 will allow you to quickly put a very
smooth finish on boards, eliminating the ripples from planers and
negating the need for sanding.

I also have a Stanley #5 jack plane, and the Millers Falls equivalent
of the #3 plane. The #5 is kind of a "jack-of-all-trades" bench
plane, and is the one you want if you can only afford to buy one
plane. I'll use it to joint or flatten narrow or short boards, since
it's lighter than the #7 and won't tire me out as quickly. It can
also be used as a smoother in a pinch. The #3 is a smaller smoother
than the #4, and I honestly don't use it much. I'll use to smooth a
really small board, or pull it out when my #4 is getting a bit dull.

Other planes I own include a Veritas medium shoulder plane (for fine
trimming of tenon shoulders and cheeks, or flatting the bottoms of
rabbets/dados/grooves), a Stanley #78 rabbeting plane (for making
rabbets on the edges of boards), a #71 router plane (for smoothing the
bottoms of dados and the such), a #48 tongue-and-groove plane (for
making tongues and grooves on the edges of boards), a #79 side rabbet
plane (for widening dados and grooves), and a Stanley #45 combination
plane (for making all sorts of dados/grooves, reeding, beading, etc.).
All of these planes are really for people who prefer to do their
woodworking by hand, and as such I wouldn't recommend their purchase
unless you really take a liking to working with handplanes. They all
require a fair amount of practice to master, especially the #45.

As others have said, Garrett Hack's "The Handplane Book" is a great
reference. It should be the first book you get on the subject.

That makes good sense. Regards. -Guy



"Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message
...
"Guy LaRochelle" writes:

Sounds like the same rules and standards as the first versions of
Microsoft
Windows and windows applications (meaning there were no rules or
standards)
grin. Thanks for the info. Regards. -Guy

In germany things are (of course!) different: Plane types adhere to a
standard (or several), there is a DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm) for
each type of plane, so the planes from different manufacurers look
rather similar. Also the planes dont have a number, rather a name,
for example theyare called something like "Rauhbank" (jointer plane),
according to DIN 7311 with iron according to DIN 5145


--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

In article ,
Guy LaRochelle wrote:
I am totally clueless when it comes to hand planes but I would like to learn
about them and to use them. There seems to be a thousand different styles.
Is there an assortment of planes that are the most needed and most widely
used to get started? If so could someone steer me in the right direction?
Regards. -Guy



"The Hand Plane Book" by Garret Hack is the best reference I have seen.
Almost all of the planes I have are used Stanleys or close copies.
If you choose that source, for getting started/general use I recommend
a Bailey #4, a #5, and a low-angle block like a 60 1/2. Get a 9 1/2
too. All of these can be found for reasonable prices from flea markets,
ebay, yard sales, etc. or a soemwhat higher prices and in enerally
better shape from several dealers on the web. Patrick Leach comes to
mind.



--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland