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#1
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Tablesaw HP
I was talking with my dad the other day and he mentioned he might by a
3HP TS from a friend. It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I guess my question (apart from the obviose of increaced cutting power) is what is the real difference. I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. Also, can 3HP really run on 110? He seems to think it can. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. Any insite appreciated! Mark |
#2
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Tablesaw HP
"DejaVoodoo" wrote: I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. Actually, higher voltage will allow more of the power you are buying to be used by the motor. Reason: Less power is wasted heating up the wire delivering the power to the motor (Ohms Law stuff) Also, can 3HP really run on 110? NO, not and get any work done. Bottom Line........................ The higher the voltage, the better since it reduces line losses thus more power to the tool motor. Lew |
#3
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Tablesaw HP
"DejaVoodoo" wrote in message ... I was talking with my dad the other day and he mentioned he might by a 3HP TS from a friend. It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I guess my question (apart from the obviose of increaced cutting power) is what is the real difference. I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. Also, can 3HP really run on 110? He seems to think it can. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? A true 3hp will likely not run on 110 volts, you typically have to go with 220 for a true 3 hp. There are some motors that claim 3 hp even 6.5 hp out of 110 volts but basically the only similirity is the energy it is consuming for a split second before it stalls. Typically however 220 motors will run with little voltage drop, usually when running on 220 volts the motor will come up to speed almost instantly vs. havig to wind up on 110 volt. My 3hp Jet on 220 will resaw a 1x6 piece of Ipe with the blade fully burrined all the way up with no indication of strain. Ipe is about 2.5 times harder than Oak. For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. Any insite appreciated! Well no, there is a very noticable differnce in performance. You just dont have a stall problem regardless of what wood you are cutting and how deep the cut. Now if you go from a 3 hp to a 5 hp in a at home setting, that would be bragging. You are pretty much maxed out with your current saw, to improve performance you would probably need to step up to a cabinet saw running on 220 volts. |
#4
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Tablesaw HP
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT), DejaVoodoo
wrote: I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade It didn't. What it did was reduce the amperage required by the saw. The advantage of that is as Lew said, less voltage drop in the wiring making a little more power available at the saw. How much depends entirely on the electrical resistance in the wiring to the saw. Assuming the same wiring resistance, the percentage voltage drop for a given wattage at 240v is 1/4 that at 120v. Also, can 3HP really run on 110? Theoretically, yes. You could run a 3HP motor on 1.5 volt flashlight batteries - theoretically. But it's not practical, either the 1.5 or 120 volts. You need a minimum 20 amp circuit at 240 volts for most 3HP machines. Double that for 120 volts although with a high efficiency motor you might squeak by on a 30 amp circuit. But you wouldn't be happy with the results. In fact, I doubt that you're going to find very many 3HP woodworking machines that can be configured for 120 volt operation. Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? Again, theoretically yes. If you can find a higher HP motor with the same NEMA or IEC frame size, it should be a fairly simple matter to replace the motor. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble or expense to rebuild, modify, or fabricate new brackets to hang the motor. Although the saw structure should have been designed with a considerable safety factor, it's impossible to say, in general, what problems might arise from the increased loads if you do indeed use the higher power available from the motor. Also you have to consider getting the additional power from the motor to the blade. Most, if not all, the 1 to 1.5 HP contractor saws use a single V-belt to spin the blade. My 3 HP saw uses a 3 groove sheave and 3 V-belts. Overkill? Maybe, but you might find that with a new, higher power motor, you also need to upgrade the sheave/belt configuration. For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. I can certainly understand why. The difference must be like night and day. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, My personal opinion is that for hobbyist, home workshop applications, anything much over about 3HP in a 10" saw is getting into the "bragging rights" area. Occasionally, the extra power in a 5HP machine will come in handy, and is very nice to have when you need it, but I believe most hobbyist woodworkers rarely use the extra power. I can say, for certain, that I've never had any problems with insufficient power on my 3HP saw. But, I have one of each, and I see the difference between a 1.5HP contractor saw and a 3HP cabinet saw as being quite significant. Possibly not to the framing carpenter working with HD "white wood", but certainly to anyone doing much with furniture grade hardwoods. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#5
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Tablesaw HP
On Sep 6, 4:14*pm, DejaVoodoo wrote
:..... *What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? the biggest advantage is safety. an underpowered saw will bog down sooner. bogging down is likely to be followed by kickback. the next advantage is being able to cut thicker/harder stuff faster/ more smoothly. the next advantage is being able to run blades with higher tooth counts. *Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? some saws have proprietary motors. you'll have to research yours. |
#6
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Tablesaw HP
DejaVoodoo wrote:
snipped It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. When you start ripping up lots of 3" hardwood you'll understand. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Tablesaw HP
"DejaVoodoo" wrote in message ... I was talking with my dad the other day and he mentioned he might by a 3HP TS from a friend. It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I guess my question (apart from the obviose of increaced cutting power) is what is the real difference. I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. Also, can 3HP really run on 110? He seems to think it can. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. Any insite appreciated! Mark I'd be wondering if that is a 3hp induction motor or a universal motor. HUGE difference between the two. I laugh anytime I see a shop vac being sold as a 7 1/2 hp machine. Then cry when someone believes it. Mike |
#8
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Tablesaw HP
"Stuart" wrote in message ... In article , Leon wrote: A true 3hp will likely not run on 110 volts, you typically have to go with 220 for a true 3 hp. And here in the UK, where 240V is standard, we would consider 3hp as the sensible limit. Anything more and we would be looking for 3ph. Stuart -- Stuart Winsor For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area See: http://www.barndance.org.uk Alas, over here in the US, you have great difficulty getting 3 phase power. My house was built in the late 1960s, and some on my block were built in the early 1960s. The latter houses have 3 phase power for the A/C, but I don't. This situation exists even though all of the transforms for my block reside on a pole behind my house. Three phase power might help me quite a bit as my A/C unit uses a 5 hp compressor motor. The lights always flicker when that thing turns on. Jim |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Tablesaw HP
On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT), DejaVoodoo
wrote: I was talking with my dad the other day and he mentioned he might by a 3HP TS from a friend. It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I guess my question (apart from the obviose of increaced cutting power) is what is the real difference. I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. Also, can 3HP really run on 110? He seems to think it can. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. Any insite appreciated! Mark Keep in mind that you may need 5 HP+ when a DC and air filters are running. A motor can be replaced in a table saw--I'd suspect a belt drive type is easier to swap. In my opinion, table saw power is less important than a large flat cast-iron table, a quality precision fence, and a sharp blade. If your 1.75 HP is not constantly bogging down I doubt you need 3 HP. |
#10
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Tablesaw HP
"Stuart" wrote in message ... In article , Leon wrote: A true 3hp will likely not run on 110 volts, you typically have to go with 220 for a true 3 hp. And here in the UK, where 240V is standard, we would consider 3hp as the sensible limit. Anything more and we would be looking for 3ph. I was wondering, in the UK the standard voltage is 240V, what is the normal gauge used for wiring in a home? |
#11
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Tablesaw HP
In article ,
Jim wrote: Alas, over here in the US, you have great difficulty getting 3 phase power. No different over here actually. If you get a unit on an industrial estate, or maybe a farm might have it, otherwise, even though it's running down the road outside your house a few feet a way it costs "lots" to have it installed. Mind you, in the UK, because of the high cost of land, you'd be lucky to have enough space anyway. Like yours, my house was built in the 60s and all I have is a garage about 8ft x 16ft for my workshop [1]. A friend of mine has a workshop just under 20ft x 20ft and I'm very envious. He could have larger but if he did his local tax would go up. Stuart [1] See Google earth 52deg 20' 27.45"N : 1deg 34' 57.03"W. Don't be fooled by the apparent size of the dwelling, its a typical british "Semi-detached" house - two dwellings built side by side and sharing a "party" wall. The conservatory belongs to my neighbour. I have a ground floor area of around 600sq ft. My neighbours house is currently on the market and the asking price is 280,000 pounds -- Stuart Winsor For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area See: http://www.barndance.org.uk |
#12
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Tablesaw HP
In article ,
Leon wrote: I was wondering, in the UK the standard voltage is 240V, what is the normal gauge used for wiring in a home? Which wiring? :-) 2.5mmsq twin and earth would be normal for a power ring main - probably feeding one floor. 30/32A fuse or MCB in the consumer unit because all portable appliances are connected by a plug containing a fuse (max 13A). A kitchen would normally have a ring main of its own these days. 6mmsq would feed a cooker, again fused at 30/32A but lighting might be 1-1.5mmsq with a 5A fuse - again this would be per floor.. The feed to my garage from the house is 6mmsq, 32A MCB, and then that is distributed round the garage using a ring main of 2.5mmsq. This I installed myself, most might have nothing more than a feed for some lighting and possibly a socket outlet for a battery charger. Sorry I don't know how these sizes translates to AWG. As you are probably aware air conditioning is rare in homes in the UK and, by and large, gas is used for heating and usually for cooking too. Electric heating is very expensive and oil, which would be used in areas away from town would be intermediate in price. If you are out in the country and can obtain a regular supply of wood, woodburners are also common for heating but possibly using LPG for cooking. Stuart -- Stuart Winsor For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area See: http://www.barndance.org.uk |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Tablesaw HP
Stuart wrote:
In article , Leon wrote: I was wondering, in the UK the standard voltage is 240V, what is the normal gauge used for wiring in a home? Which wiring? :-) 2.5mmsq twin and earth would be normal for a power ring main - probably feeding one floor. 30/32A fuse or MCB in the consumer unit because all portable appliances are connected by a plug containing a fuse (max 13A). A kitchen would normally have a ring main of its own these days. 6mmsq would feed a cooker, again fused at 30/32A but lighting might be 1-1.5mmsq with a 5A fuse - again this would be per floor.. The feed to my garage from the house is 6mmsq, 32A MCB, and then that is distributed round the garage using a ring main of 2.5mmsq. This I installed myself, most might have nothing more than a feed for some lighting and possibly a socket outlet for a battery charger. Sorry I don't know how these sizes translates to AWG. As you are probably aware air conditioning is rare in homes in the UK and, by and large, gas is used for heating and usually for cooking too. Electric heating is very expensive and oil, which would be used in areas away from town would be intermediate in price. If you are out in the country and can obtain a regular supply of wood, woodburners are also common for heating but possibly using LPG for cooking. Stuart 2.5 mmsq - between 14 and 12 gauge 1.5 mmsq - between 14 and 16 gauge 6 mmsq - between 9 and 10 gauge -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#14
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Tablesaw HP
"Stuart" wrote in message ... In article , Leon wrote: I was wondering, in the UK the standard voltage is 240V, what is the normal gauge used for wiring in a home? Which wiring? :-) 2.5mmsq twin and earth would be normal for a power ring main - probably feeding one floor. 30/32A fuse or MCB in the consumer unit because all portable appliances are connected by a plug containing a fuse (max 13A). A kitchen would normally have a ring main of its own these days. 6mmsq would feed a cooker, again fused at 30/32A but lighting might be 1-1.5mmsq with a 5A fuse - again this would be per floor.. The feed to my garage from the house is 6mmsq, 32A MCB, and then that is distributed round the garage using a ring main of 2.5mmsq. This I installed myself, most might have nothing more than a feed for some lighting and possibly a socket outlet for a battery charger. Sorry I don't know how these sizes translates to AWG. As you are probably aware air conditioning is rare in homes in the UK and, by and large, gas is used for heating and usually for cooking too. Electric heating is very expensive and oil, which would be used in areas away from town would be intermediate in price. If you are out in the country and can obtain a regular supply of wood, woodburners are also common for heating but possibly using LPG for cooking. Stuart -- Stuart Winsor For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area See: http://www.barndance.org.uk I don't know what size wire connects my circuit breaker box to the wires on the pole. I can tell you that the box is full of 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers, 30 and 40 amp breakers for the kitchen and drier, as well as 60 amp breakers for the A/C. I use gas for water heating. Jim |
#15
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Tablesaw HP
"Stuart" wrote in message ... In article , Leon wrote: I was wondering, in the UK the standard voltage is 240V, what is the normal gauge used for wiring in a home? Which wiring? :-) An ordinary wall outlet. Snip Thank you |
#16
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Tablesaw HP
"Nova" wrote in message news:5dXwk.766$jE1.506@trnddc03... 2.5 mmsq - between 14 and 12 gauge 1.5 mmsq - between 14 and 16 gauge 6 mmsq - between 9 and 10 gauge Oh! Thank you Nova, looks similar to in the US. I would have thought much smaller gauge. |
#17
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Tablesaw HP
"Stuart" wrote: My understanding is that in the US you have a 220V supply centre tapped to earth giving you 220V for heavy loads such as A/C and heating and 110V for other appliances. Is this correct? Your circuitry is correct, it is known as a "Three wire Edison" circuit The voltage rating these days is 120V/240V for distribution equipment such as transformers. The voltage rating these days is 115V/230V for utilization equipment such as motors. The difference is to allow for line losses. Lew |
#18
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Tablesaw HP
Stuart wrote:
In article , Jim wrote: I don't know what size wire connects my circuit breaker box to the wires on the pole. I can tell you that the box is full of 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers, 30 and 40 amp breakers for the kitchen and drier, as well as 60 amp breakers for the A/C. I use gas for water heating. The majority of power distribution, other than to farms and such, in the UK is by underground cable and I don't have any idea what size that is either but the first thing it is connected to in the house is the electricity supply company fuse. In our case it is 60A but in more modern installations might be 80A or in a large modern house as high as 100A. Good job we don't have A/C :-) My understanding is that in the US you have a 220V supply centre tapped to earth giving you 220V for heavy loads such as A/C and heating and 110V for other appliances. Is this correct? Hmmm, probably should be on alt.electrical-engineering or some such :-) Where I am its 23.55 and I'm thinking of going to bed. Catch up with you guys' posts in the morning. Stuart; You are correct about 220VAC in the US. In the circuit breaker box each adjacent breaker is attached to alternate sides of the service entrance. i.e. 1)left 2)right 3)left 4)right and so on. The second line of breakers are just the opposite. The occasional 3phase circuit is wired in a similar fashion except there are 3 circuits involved. Home 3 phase is very rare. Dave Nagel |
#20
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Tablesaw HP
In article de26a03d-45ec-4a41-8158-
, says... I was talking with my dad the other day and he mentioned he might by a 3HP TS from a friend. It got me wondering what the HP was on my Jet Supersaw and I found it was 1 3/4. I guess my question (apart from the obviose of increaced cutting power) is what is the real difference. I rewired my saw for 220 - but doubt that give me an HP upgrade, I bet it just kind of smooths out the power draw. It doesn't "smooth out" the power but as others have mentioned, it will give you somewhat more power (and keep the motor cooler) because there is less drop in the wires (all assuming the same sized wiring). Also, can 3HP really run on 110? It *can*, but likely won't. 1HP ~= 750W, assuming 100% efficiency. A 120V 30A circuit might be able to supply a 3HP motor, but it would be a waste of copper (#10 wire required). A 220V 20A circuit is almost always simpler and cheaper, all around. He seems to think it can. I have not been able to bog down my TS and I have always found cutting to be great. Don't worry. Be happy. The only thing I really cut though are Oak and Ply. What benifits would I expect with an upgrade? Can a TS motor be replaced to increase HP, or do you just have to buy a new saw? It likely can be replaced, but since you're happy with the saw now there is little chance the "upgrade" would be worth the expense. For those that do not know, the supersaw was kind of a hybrid cabinet/ contractor saw. Personally I love it, but the only other saw I have owned/used was a benchtop Skil. A bit of difference there! ;-) I'm guessing anything bigger is just more bragging rights, but what do I know. Any insite appreciated! For most, I think you're right on the money. -- Keith |
#21
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Tablesaw HP
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#22
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Tablesaw HP
krw wrote:
IME, if it's got a belt it's an induction motor, if not it's a universal. There are some exceptions to this; bench grinder, horizontal mortising/boring machine, hollow chisel mortiser, dust collector... If it's *NOISY* it's a universal motor. This one is pretty much guaranteed. Wailing like a banshee means universal. Chris |
#23
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Tablesaw HP
On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:03:15 -0500, "The Davenport's"
wrote: I'd be wondering if that is a 3hp induction motor or a universal motor. HUGE difference between the two. I laugh anytime I see a shop vac being sold as a 7 1/2 hp machine. Then cry when someone believes it. Mike Not really. Power is still Amps X Voltage (with phase angle considered for AC) regardless of whether it's a universal or induction motor. The difference is in the marketing department of the manufacturer's sales organization. They like to claim as much power as they can get away with for their shop-vac. So, most of that hype comes from using the amperage drawn by the motor with the rotor locked - the absolute maximum the motor will draw. That amperage multiplied by the supply voltage gives a pseudo wattage value that can be converted to Horsepower at the rate of 746 watts per HP. Now that's the power consumed (or in marketing terms, "Developed") by the motor under conditions in which it is actually producing no power at all. Mechanical Power = Torque X rotational velocity (with the proper units). So with rotation = 0, Power = 0. That marketing approach to power ratings seems to be most often found in small universal motor applications, but I've also seen applications using induction motors emblazoned with such things a "7 HP Developed" and in much smaller lettering "3 HP Running". But, it's all marketing hype, not something intrinsic to universal vs induction motors. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#24
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Tablesaw HP
In article ,
Tom Veatch wrote: That marketing approach to power ratings seems to be most often found in small universal motor applications, but I've also seen applications using induction motors emblazoned with such things a "7 HP Developed" and in much smaller lettering "3 HP Running". Sounds like the same approach used for cheap audio systems, especially the ones you attach to computers. You know, the ones that say 200W and are fed from a wall-wart the size of a matchbox. -- Stuart Winsor For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area See: http://www.barndance.org.uk |
#25
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Tablesaw HP
Stuart wrote:
In article , Tom Veatch wrote: That marketing approach to power ratings seems to be most often found in small universal motor applications, but I've also seen applications using induction motors emblazoned with such things a "7 HP Developed" and in much smaller lettering "3 HP Running". Sounds like the same approach used for cheap audio systems, especially the ones you attach to computers. You know, the ones that say 200W and are fed from a wall-wart the size of a matchbox. And Monster Cable and K&N Air Filters. All work miracles! |
#26
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Tablesaw HP
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#27
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Tablesaw HP
krw wrote in
t: In article , says... In article , Tom Veatch wrote: That marketing approach to power ratings seems to be most often found in small universal motor applications, but I've also seen applications using induction motors emblazoned with such things a "7 HP Developed" and in much smaller lettering "3 HP Running". Sounds like the same approach used for cheap audio systems, especially the ones you attach to computers. You know, the ones that say 200W and are fed from a wall-wart the size of a matchbox. Sorta, except the audiophools are even more creative. They take the open circuit voltage times the short circuit current and give it a technical term lie "music power". If they are really creative they'll call it "RMS music power" or some other nonsensical term. It would be like measuring the rotor torque close to stall times the unloaded RPM. And they probably "measure" it playing a pure tone at the resonance frequency of the speaker. Puckdropper -- If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles. To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm |
#28
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Tablesaw HP
In article , Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com says... krw wrote in t: In article , says... In article , Tom Veatch wrote: That marketing approach to power ratings seems to be most often found in small universal motor applications, but I've also seen applications using induction motors emblazoned with such things a "7 HP Developed" and in much smaller lettering "3 HP Running". Sounds like the same approach used for cheap audio systems, especially the ones you attach to computers. You know, the ones that say 200W and are fed from a wall-wart the size of a matchbox. Sorta, except the audiophools are even more creative. They take the open circuit voltage times the short circuit current and give it a technical term lie "music power". If they are really creative they'll call it "RMS music power" or some other nonsensical term. It would be like measuring the rotor torque close to stall times the unloaded RPM. And they probably "measure" it playing a pure tone at the resonance frequency of the speaker. Nope. That would give a number that makes at least some sense. -- Keith |
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