(reposting - modified - due to message disappearing from my servers.
Apologies if it keeps appearing on yours)

I'm aware of debate about the absolute necessity for such devices... I know
(a little) about the merits of pivoting fences, I know that keep-parallel
fences are regarded as unessential for certain operations and workflow
situations and I've seen Marc Sommerfeld on DVD demonstrating the excellent
results HE gets from his "hit it till it's right" fence adjustment method but
with my mindset, background, aspirations and shortcomings I feel it would
benefit ME to have the repeatability, adjustability and accuracy of a fence
positioning system.

I'm also in U.K. on a tight budget.

I've seen the Incra videos. It's sales talk, I know, but I'm still impressed
I absolutely love the engineering and apparent build quality of the Incra
gear, and I'm contemplating the "basic" router table fence mounted on the 17"
positioner (or even the plastic "original" jig and fence)

Either will cost me at least as much to import as the U.S. purchase price.

or, from the UK Importers, I get (for the 25" version)
£259.95 - $463.21 USD

or with the wonder fence add-on.
£349.95 - $623.58 USD

Ouch!!!

I've just come across the Pinnacle® Premium Positioner Fence System on the
woodcraft site. It seems to be a woodcraft exclusive, but you might know
better.

From where I stand, it seems to be a functionally very similar piece of kit,
and a $129.99 U.S, domestic, potentially a very attractive price advantage,
even including exorbitant import and taxes.

I have never seen one in the flesh and have seen no reviews apart from the
Charles guy on Utube who enthuses 'cuz it does minute/little/small
adjustments. (I get the idea that it's accurate enough :-) ) It's a
passionate endorsement, but doesn't give me much detail to go on. It seems to
use the same "snap to the thread" clamping idea, has a similar fine-adjuster
and has no coping slides or stops (but apparently includes plans for building
your own) I gather that the Incra template system is compatible with it, so
it should be able to produce the same fancy triple-dovetailed joints that the
Incra does but I haven;t the faintest idea if it is say, easy on one and
difficult on the other, difficult on one and just about possible on the other
if you spend hours on each joint and are very, very luckyŠ

So, I'm asking you chaps for your views, opinions, experience and er, advice,
please.


Is the Pinnacle a clone / parallel evolution / cheap joke / a
not-paying-for-the-name bargain / something else ?? Is it half-way between
the original and new Incras?


**STOP PRESS** I've _just_ heard that the Pinnacle IS actually an Incra
ultra (lite?) with a different dye job and badge. Maybe that was obvious
to you. It wasn't to me. /**STOP PRESS**

If I got the Pinnacle (or the plastic Incra) would I then regret it? If so,
why?

What might the de-luxe Incra positioner give me in terms of operator
convenience that the others wouldn't - in other words, does the Incra (the
new Positioner model) do some task SO much more elegantly than, say, the
Pinnacle which might produce the same result but require a lot of fudging or
kludging workarounds?
Is the original Incra jig and fence all that is necessary in real-life, and
the improvements just over-engineered and well-marketed hype?

Should I give up routing and just nail rough timber together into crude rain
shelters to keep the awful British weather at bay as we all live in mud huts
and talk funny over here and haven't got any power for our tools anyway?

Anything else helpful on the Incra / Pinnacle issue? (Kreg? Sommerfeld?)

addendum:
after some discussion with the importer, (Roger at
http://www.woodworkersworkshop.co.uk )I've almost come to the conclusion that
a positioner (25") would do more than everything I want on the router table.
(He recommends the 17" in almost every case for dedicated router work,)

The extra length would allow me to kludge it onto my extremely bottom-end
table saw by clamping onto a me-build extension wing with an alignment jig.
The TS is a toolmaster 10" - some one-off 2 horse FE badge job. It has a
lousy fence and tiny table, but the blade runs true.
It won't do large panels but I'd like to know that what I ripped to width is
going to be right. There's no way I can afford the Incra railed TS system,
which would be massive overkill on this thing but I think I can improve
accuracy and convenience immensely by lending it the router-table's
positioner. I can imagine objections about clamping the arrangement down on
the T.S. but I'm confident that butting a clampable baseboard against
alignment stops is going to give me all the accuracy I can handle. I might
even co-mount the RT with the TS. Still thinking.

Is this scheme lunacy?

Sorry for the infinite monologue. The questions are my thought processes at
work and I don't really expect them to be answered on a blow-by blow-basis,
but you have an idea of what I'm trying to find out and can't find out on the
web and I value your experience. My original question was posted but failed
to appear in the group, was modified and re-sent and modified yet again as I
learned more, so it has become a long stream of consciousness personal
debate.

Thanks in advance for your patience and all your kind help.

Bored Borg wrote:

with my mindset, background, aspirations and shortcomings I feel it would
benefit ME to have the repeatability, adjustability and accuracy of a fence
positioning system.

I'm also in U.K. on a tight budget.

I'm perfectly willing to complicate your life and help you spend your
hard-earned cash. :-)

I have the Incra Ultra and the Incra table saw fence. Wonderful
equipment at a price that brought tears to my eyes.

If you really have an overriding passion for repeatably, adjustability,
and accuracy in your joinery, then I'd suggest yet another possible
solution - a CNC router. At

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

I've shown a shop-built machine that can control a router in three
dimensions with motion in 1/4800 inch increments. There are at least two
of us here who've built our own machines (and quite a few that I've
never seen here).

I think that, if you shopped /really/ carefully, you could build a
similar machine for under US$500.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
Bored Borg wrote:

with my mindset, background, aspirations and shortcomings I feel it
would benefit ME to have the repeatability, adjustability and
accuracy of a fence positioning system.

I'm also in U.K. on a tight budget.

I'm perfectly willing to complicate your life and help you spend
your
hard-earned cash. :-)

I have the Incra Ultra and the Incra table saw fence. Wonderful
equipment at a price that brought tears to my eyes.

If you really have an overriding passion for repeatably,
adjustability, and accuracy in your joinery, then I'd suggest yet
another possible solution - a CNC router. At

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

I've shown a shop-built machine that can control a router in three
dimensions with motion in 1/4800 inch increments. There are at least
two of us here who've built our own machines (and quite a few that
I've never seen here).

I think that, if you shopped /really/ carefully, you could build a
similar machine for under US$500.

On a tight budget the original Incra is available for about 100 bucks.
That gives granularity of 1/32" with very high repeatability. In
stock at rockler.com and I believer they will ship to the UK.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DISCALIMER: I have NO affiliation with JoinTech or any of it's
dealers. I bought my set up at the Show Price at a woodworking
show five or more years ago and have bought replacement
zero clearance inserts and some other accessories over the years
directly from JoinTech via phone - and paid the going prices.
I've used this thing to make dovetail drawers, make jewelry boxes,
route moldings, grooves/dados/rabbets, cut mortises AND tenons
etc. It works as advertised - based on my personal experience
with it. My money - my opinion.
================================================

And now I'm going to add another system for consideration
the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System

www.jointech.com/woodworking1.htm

The "system" is comprised of a fence positioning assembly
(they call it the Clincher)and a fence - which is actually a
split fence with replaceable and relatively inexpensive inserts
which fit into each side of the split fence at the throat and
which allow you to cut custom zero clearance fence inserts
to fit your specific router bit(s) - one for each bit of course
(unless the height is low, in which case you can get two
"profiles" in each fence insert.

A Clincher with a travel range of 12" (about 305 mm) (part
no. CL-12) and a 24" (about 610 mm) Cabinet Maker Fence
(part number SF-24) is on sale as a package (pakg id JCM1224)
for $309.99 USD. Suggest you spend the extra $20 USD and
get the Mounting Baseboard (RTB) as well as it gives you another
5 or 6 inches of distance from bit to face of fence (you still
only have 12" of precision positioning).

Let's start with the Clincher. The "arm" is a wide, very rigid
anodized aluminum extrusion so it won't bend, flex, twist or
deform under forces it will be subjected to. It has a fine precision
thread STEEL lead screw with a precision threaded STEEL
"quater nut", the latter controlled by a three position lever - open
to allow the fence to be moved manually very quickly, half
locked to engage the half nut with the lead screw for very
fine adjustments -each turn of the lead screw produces 1/32"
fence movement, with 32 equall spaced detentes on the adjustment
wheel - resulting in 0.001 increments- the click detentes
mean you don't have to try and read a scale , just feel and count
the "clicks" - and a LOCKED position that holds the fence exactly
where you set it - come hell or high water.

The top of the anodized extruded aluminum part has three, or
maybe four - I'd have to go look - it has four - "slots" into which
a measuring tape can be slid, as well as paper templates for
positioning the fence for doing box/finger joints, though and
half blind dovetails and the like.

There is a clear plastic (it probably is lexan) "window" with a black
alignment line INSCRIBED INTO IT (not painted ON it) - ON BOTH THE
TOP AND BOTTOM - eliminating parallax propblems - so the fence
can be very accurately aligned to both the tape measure as well
as lines on paper templates.

for a bunch more specifics - with photos go here

www,jointech.com/dovetailjig.htm

Now about the Cabinet Maker Fence (now apperently called the
Smart Fenced)

It's approximately a 2" x 2" extruded aluminum square body, with three
slots
on top and one on the top of the face - for attaching hold down "finger
boards", stops and fence height extensions. One end has a dust
collection port.
The fence face also has small openings at the bottom to pull sawdust
created
while routing back into the fence body and then to the dust collector.

The split fence faces can be independently moved out and out for
joining edges of boards. When offset, the zero clearance fence
insert cannot be used.

If you've ever been routing the coped end of a rail you'll really
appreciate being able to make a zero clearance fence insert.
Eliminates having the part pulled back into and behind the fence
at the start of the coping pass. Even nicer to have when you're
using a 3-3 1/2" raised panel bit (they scare me but I use them
- with a coping sled just in case).

plenty more specifics - with pictures at this url
www.jointech.com/dovetailfence.htm

The guy who came up with this thing was a Lockheed engineer
and it's VERY WELL THOUGHT OUT and Made.

Sorry about adding to your decisions list ; )

charlie b

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:34:43 +0100, J. Clarke wrote
(in article ):



On a tight budget the original Incra is available for about 100 bucks.
That gives granularity of 1/32" with very high repeatability. In
stock at rockler.com and I believer they will ship to the UK.



Thanks John. Nice thought. I saw the web page and got quite excited...
particularly with the "strong pound" as the news guys say, and then...
I checked this out with Rockler and the shipping is around another 100 or so,
plus import duty and value added tax on the combined cost of item, shipping
and import duty. By the time it all adds up it gets close to a bulk
importer's price for one of the more up-market items.

Bulky items - and anything over a combined value and shipping of, I think,
£25 attracts the import taxes etc etc. Now if someone were to post goods over
here as individually-wrapped small components, (yes I know I'm being
flippant) things would get to be more financially viable.

A couple of years back I bought a bass drum pedal (Kick drum, as you
colonials say). Over here, it retailed, deep discount at around £110 - £194
USD. I sourced the same item in NY for, if I remember correctly, $70 USD -
$40GBP. HUGE difference.. By the time I received it, paid UPS the mandatory
taxes on top of freight, it cost me nearer £120 - $212 USD. Exchange rates
are today's, BTW, just to give an idea of the problem.

Oh the joys of living in the third world. Bah!

NB I regularly buy DVD and CD from the USA, as even with the airmail and
taxes, they are still considerably cheaper than buying retail over here.

Anyone want to post me a HD Low Rider in jiffy bags marked "gift, no
intrinsic value" ?

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:56:06 +0100, Bored Borg wrote:

Is the original Incra jig and fence all that is necessary in real-life, and
the improvements just over-engineered and well-marketed hype?

Should I give up routing and just nail rough timber together into crude rain
shelters to keep the awful British weather at bay as we all live in mud huts
and talk funny over here and haven't got any power for our tools anyway?

I have the original Incra jig and I wasn't impressed with its use on a
router table. I stil occasionally use it as a guide to repositioning my
tablesaw rip fence.

The high priced rigs do the job, but if you only use the capabilities
occaionally it'll take a while to recover the cost.

If your router table has a miter slot, you can easily rig up a dial
indicator or the like that rides on the miter slot and can ensure the
fence is parallel to the slot. Would that do the job for you?

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 19:41:04 +0100, charlieb wrote
(in article ):

snip

And now I'm going to add another system for consideration
the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System

www.jointech.com/woodworking1.htm

sadly snipped

charlie b


ARGHHHHHHHHH !!!!

I checked out the webbery on this, too. This is sheer pornography.. I fad to
keep wiping the drool off.

Again, same problems with pricing by the time it gets to The Old County.

It can't be a serious consideration unless I move over to the land of free,
brave and well-salaried.

Thanks for the stimulation, though. I'll certainly keep an eye on their
development program.


JOOC - does this thing take the same templates as the Incras ?

II think I need a nice lie down. I think I've some beer in the oven,
ready...

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:33:22 +0100, Larry Blanchard wrote
(in article ):


I have the original Incra jig and I wasn't impressed with its use on a
router table. I stil occasionally use it as a guide to repositioning my
tablesaw rip fence.

The high priced rigs do the job, but if you only use the capabilities
occaionally it'll take a while to recover the cost.

This is the sort of info / opinion I sought, Thanks.

What dissatisfied you with the jig - function, ergonomics, floppiness? Do
you just think that the basic concept is overkill?

If your router table has a miter slot, you can easily rig up a dial
indicator or the like that rides on the miter slot and can ensure the
fence is parallel to the slot. Would that do the job for you?

Hmm.. it's not the parallelism per se that is important, it's more the
_convenient_ repeatable accuracy. Not a great fan of mitre slots, to be
honest.

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:58:21 +0100, Morris Dovey wrote
(in article ):

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

Just when you think it's safe to go in the water, some great big left-field
surprise shows up and chews yer foot off.

I love the idea, and a few years ago I'd probably have dropped everything and
gone for it, but I have soooo many things going on I just daren't get back
into electronic tinkery. When the earth was young I built my own synth. It
took months, cost me a fortune and sounded great - but not as great as the
off-the-shelf model I bought six months later for about a fifth of the price.
I used to service all my own hi-fi, but I've a tape deck that needed a new
head about 15 yrs ago and it's still on the "get round to it" pile.

CNC sounds like a great idea for an educational project, production or just
an end in itself but I daren't go there at the moment. :-) (hmm... er, does
the software run on MacOs?)

Bored Borg wrote:
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:58:21 +0100, Morris Dovey wrote
(in article ):

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/

Just when you think it's safe to go in the water, some great big left-field
surprise shows up and chews yer foot off.

I love the idea, and a few years ago I'd probably have dropped everything and
gone for it, but I have soooo many things going on I just daren't get back
into electronic tinkery. When the earth was young I built my own synth. It
took months, cost me a fortune and sounded great - but not as great as the
off-the-shelf model I bought six months later for about a fifth of the price.
I used to service all my own hi-fi, but I've a tape deck that needed a new
head about 15 yrs ago and it's still on the "get round to it" pile.

I bought controller kit and four steppers from www.hobbycnc.com - it
took about an hour to assemble (solder) the controller card, and another
half hour to make the cables.

CNC sounds like a great idea for an educational project, production or just
an end in itself but I daren't go there at the moment. :-) (hmm... er, does
the software run on MacOs?)

One of the possible reasons for using CNC is to achieve a higher degree
of precision than would be otherwise be possible. I've designed a number
of joints that can only be executed with computer controlled cutting.

I downloaded and use TurboCNC from DAK Engineering ( www.dakeng.com ).
You can download the S/W for free, and register it for US$60 if/when you
want support.

AFAIK, this package is only available for MS-DOS, which suited my
platform. You might Google around to see if there's a similar package
for the Mac.

A good resource is the forum at www.cnczone.com

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Parallelism with variable & continuous adjustability:
http://patwarner.com/routerfence.html
************************************************** **********************************8

On Sep 5, 3:56*am, Bored Borg
wrote:
(reposting - modified - *due to message disappearing from my servers.
Apologies if it keeps appearing on yours)

I'm aware of debate about the absolute necessity for such devices... I know
(a little) about the merits of pivoting fences, I know that keep-parallel
fences are regarded as unessential for certain operations and workflow
situations and I've seen Marc Sommerfeld on DVD demonstrating the excellent
results HE gets from his "hit it till it's right" fence adjustment method but
with my mindset, background, aspirations and shortcomings I feel it would
benefit ME to have the repeatability, adjustability and accuracy of a fence
positioning system.

I'm also in U.K. on a tight budget.

I've seen the Incra videos. It's sales talk, I know, but I'm still impressed
I absolutely love the engineering and apparent build quality of the Incra
gear, and I'm contemplating the "basic" router table fence mounted on the 17"
positioner (or even the plastic "original" jig and fence)

Either will cost me at least as much to import as the U.S. purchase price..

or, from the UK Importers, I get (for the 25" version)
£259.95 * *- *$463.21 USD

or with the wonder fence add-on.
£349.95 * * - $623.58 USD

Ouch!!!

I've just come across the *Pinnacle® Premium Positioner Fence System on the
woodcraft site. It seems to be a woodcraft exclusive, but you might know
better.

From where I stand, it seems to be a functionally very similar piece of kit,
and a $129.99 U.S, domestic, potentially a very attractive price advantage,
even including exorbitant import and taxes.

I have never seen one in the flesh and have seen no reviews apart from the
Charles guy on Utube who enthuses 'cuz it does minute/little/small
adjustments. (I get the idea that it's accurate enough *:-) *) It's a
passionate endorsement, but doesn't give me much detail to go on. It seems to
use the same "snap to the thread" clamping idea, has a similar fine-adjuster
and has no coping slides or stops (but apparently includes plans for building
your own) I gather that the Incra template system is compatible with it, so
it should be able to produce the same fancy triple-dovetailed joints that the
Incra does but I haven;t the faintest idea if it is say, easy on one and
difficult on the other, difficult on one and just about possible on the other
if you spend hours on each joint and are very, very luckyŠ

So, I'm asking you chaps for your views, opinions, experience and er, advice,
please.

Is the Pinnacle a clone / parallel evolution / cheap joke / a
not-paying-for-the-name bargain / something else ?? Is it half-way between
the original and new Incras?

* **STOP PRESS** I've _just_ heard that the Pinnacle IS actually an Incra
* ultra (lite?) with a different dye job and badge. Maybe that was obvious
* to you. It wasn't to me. */**STOP PRESS**

If I got the Pinnacle (or the plastic Incra) would I then regret it? If so,
why?

What might the de-luxe Incra positioner give me in terms of operator
convenience that the others wouldn't - in other words, does the Incra (the
new Positioner model) do some task SO much more elegantly than, say, *the
Pinnacle which might produce the same result but require a lot of fudging or
kludging workarounds?
Is the original Incra jig and fence all that is necessary in real-life, and
the improvements just over-engineered and well-marketed hype?

Should I give up routing and just nail rough timber together into crude rain
shelters to keep the awful British weather at bay as we all live in mud huts
and talk funny over here and haven't got any power for our tools anyway?

Anything else helpful on the Incra / Pinnacle issue? (Kreg? Sommerfeld?)

addendum:
after some discussion with the importer, (Roger athttp://www.woodworkersworkshop.co.uk)I've almost come to the conclusion that
a positioner (25") would do more than everything I want on the router table. *
(He recommends the 17" in almost every case for dedicated router work,)

The extra length would allow me to kludge it onto my extremely bottom-end
table saw by clamping onto a me-build extension wing with an alignment jig.
The TS is a toolmaster 10" - some one-off 2 horse FE badge job. It has a
lousy fence and tiny table, but the blade runs true.
It won't do large panels but I'd like to know that what I ripped to width is
going to be right. There's no way I can afford the Incra railed TS system,
which would be massive overkill on this thing but I think I can improve
accuracy and convenience immensely by lending it the router-table's
positioner. I can imagine objections about clamping the arrangement down on
the T.S. but I'm confident that butting a clampable baseboard against
alignment stops is going to give me all the accuracy I can handle. I might
even co-mount the RT with the TS. Still thinking.

Is this scheme lunacy?

Sorry for the infinite monologue. The questions are my thought processes at
work and I don't really expect them to be answered on a blow-by blow-basis,
but you have an idea of what I'm trying to find out and can't find out on the
web and I value your experience. My original question was posted but failed
to appear in the group, was modified and re-sent and modified yet again as I
learned more, so it has become a long stream of consciousness personal
debate.

Thanks in advance for your patience and all your kind help.

you may wish to try http://www.rutlands.co.uk known as Rutland Tools,
They're a reasonably top end supplier in the market and as such, may not
meet your restricted financial needs/means.

I wonder if you've tried EBAY in the UK, or other auction sites?

You may also have limited success via B&Q or Screwfix, altho, I'd say
Rutlands, as specialists, are likely to be your best bet.

Hope ths is helpful?
Good luck in your continued hunt for the right product, at the right price,
John
wheelzuk
EDINBURGH Scotland

Bored Borg wrote:

And now I'm going to add another system for consideration
the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System

www.jointech.com/woodworking1.htm

sadly snipped

ARGHHHHHHHHH !!!!

I checked out the webbery on this, too. This is sheer pornography.. I fad to
keep wiping the drool off.

Again, same problems with pricing by the time it gets to The Old County.

It can't be a serious consideration unless I move over to the land of free,
brave and well-salaried.

What happened to Globalization and Opening Up Markets?

Don't feel too bad though. I understand Festool, Felder and other
machines and tools made and marketed in Europe are less expensive
than they are over here. I've heard that the Robland X-31 combi
machine I got for $6K USD runs abour $3500 USD in europe.

Thanks for the stimulation, though. I'll certainly keep an eye on their
development program.

JOOC - does this thing take the same templates as the Incras ?

Don't know, I don't have and Incra. The JoinTech paper templates
are 1/2" wide so if Incra's are 1/2" wide you're half way there.
The other half is the router bits to use with the templates, since
the
spacing of lines on the templates are based on the bit diameter and
angle in the case of dovetail bits.

And THAT may be another thing to look into. If you need to buy
proprietary bits (ie - Incra's router bits) rather than available
from multiple suppliers, it could be a factor. I know the AKEDA
dovetail jigs use special bits - though Whiteside and another
router bit maker also have bits for the AKEDA.

II think I need a nice lie down. I think I've some beer in the oven,
ready...

Ah Lucas Electric - Lucas The King Of Darkness - and the reason
Brits drink warm beer.

good luck on your hunt

charlie b

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:43:24 +0100, Bored Borg wrote:


What dissatisfied you with the jig - function, ergonomics, floppiness? Do
you just think that the basic concept is overkill?


You know, it's been so long I'm not really sure. I do remember doing some
half-blind dovetails with it and having to round the back of the tails by
hand :-).


Hmm.. it's not the parallelism per se that is important, it's more the
_convenient_ repeatable accuracy. Not a great fan of mitre slots, to be
honest.


A router table without a miter slot makes it difficult to shape the ends
of a board. Often used for coping rail ends, but handy for other things
as well. For example, cutting a lock miter on the 45 degree end of a
picture frame.

The indicator I mentioned could be as simple as a stick attached to a
miter bar and would give you repeatability as well as parallelism.

Larry Blanchard wrote:

A router table without a miter slot makes it difficult to shape the ends
of a board. Often used for coping rail ends, but handy for other things
as well. For example, cutting a lock miter on the 45 degree end of a
picture frame.

Hmm - unless you have a fence, in which case you can slide a guide with
the proper angle along the fence.

By happenso, I have one a q&d setup sitting on the router table in the
photo at the bottom of

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/MiniCyclone/

that I'd just used for routing a tenon at the end of a board (even tho
the table has a miter slot).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Bored Borg wrote:
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:33:22 +0100, Larry Blanchard wrote
(in article ):


I have the original Incra jig and I wasn't impressed with its use
on
a router table. I stil occasionally use it as a guide to
repositioning my tablesaw rip fence.

The high priced rigs do the job, but if you only use the
capabilities
occaionally it'll take a while to recover the cost.

This is the sort of info / opinion I sought, Thanks.

What dissatisfied you with the jig - function, ergonomics,
floppiness? Do you just think that the basic concept is overkill?

If your router table has a miter slot, you can easily rig up a dial
indicator or the like that rides on the miter slot and can ensure
the
fence is parallel to the slot. Would that do the job for you?

Hmm.. it's not the parallelism per se that is important, it's more
the
_convenient_ repeatable accuracy. Not a great fan of mitre slots, to
be honest.

I've got the original Incra and the LS. The LS bolted to the router
table, the original is attached to a piece of MDF that gets clamped
down wherever I need it (usually the RAS, sometimes the drill press).

The _major_ limitation on the original is the travel. If you do
pieces wider than 8 inches or so it's going to be a hassle, where the
LS can do 17 or 25 depending on model. On the other hand the LS has
numerous improvements that make it much, much more convenient to
use--changing position involves flipping a lever rather than
unscrewing a knob (doesn't sound like much but you do a lot of
repositioning when you're cutting dovetails or box joints), the
template channels have grooves on the sides that hold the templates
securely vs having to stick them down and there's a hairline cursor
that makes the position easier to read than using the edge of the
mating part like on the original, the 5 template channels mean that
you can have several "convenience" templates loaded in addition to the
one specific to the joint you are making, the lead screw makes initial
setup _much_ easier (you just adjust the lead screw rather than having
to nudge the jig a tiny fraction of an inch), just much nicer all
around. But other than the travel the LS won't actually _do_ anything
that the original won't.

It's not going to be nearly as fast to use as an Omnijig or the like,
but it's much more versatile.

Hidden expense--you _need_ the "Master Reference Guide and Template
Library" for $25US and should get and work through the "Projects and
Techniques" book as well--order both of those when you order the jig.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

charlieb wrote:
Bored Borg wrote:

And now I'm going to add another system for consideration
the JoinTech Cabinet Maker System

www.jointech.com/woodworking1.htm

sadly snipped

ARGHHHHHHHHH !!!!

I checked out the webbery on this, too. This is sheer pornography..
I fad to keep wiping the drool off.

Again, same problems with pricing by the time it gets to The Old
County.

It can't be a serious consideration unless I move over to the land
of free, brave and well-salaried.

What happened to Globalization and Opening Up Markets?

Don't feel too bad though. I understand Festool, Felder and
other
machines and tools made and marketed in Europe are less expensive
than they are over here. I've heard that the Robland X-31 combi
machine I got for $6K USD runs abour $3500 USD in europe.

Thanks for the stimulation, though. I'll certainly keep an eye on
their development program.

JOOC - does this thing take the same templates as the Incras ?

Don't know, I don't have and Incra. The JoinTech paper templates
are 1/2" wide so if Incra's are 1/2" wide you're half way there.
The other half is the router bits to use with the templates,
since
the
spacing of lines on the templates are based on the bit diameter
and
angle in the case of dovetail bits.

And THAT may be another thing to look into. If you need to buy
proprietary bits (ie - Incra's router bits) rather than available
from multiple suppliers, it could be a factor. I know the AKEDA
dovetail jigs use special bits - though Whiteside and another
router bit maker also have bits for the AKEDA.

Freud and several other vendors have bit sets specifically intended
for use with the Incra jig--the ones that Incra sells are by Whiteside
(you can see the logo on the box in the pictures on their site). With
dovetails any bit of the right diameter and angle should work
fine--you fiddle the bit height to tune the fit. With box joints the
diameter of the bit has to be right on, and there seems to be enough
tolerance in the bits that one will cut perfectly, another a little
tight, and another a little loose even from the same brand.

II think I need a nice lie down. I think I've some beer in the
oven,
ready...

Ah Lucas Electric - Lucas The King Of Darkness - and the reason
Brits drink warm beer.

good luck on your hunt

charlie b

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Firstly, thanks for all your help. Extremely useful. Personal experience
tales are for more persuasive and informative than glossies from mfr.

Long (very long) term I'm maybe going to look at a CNC system. Seems
eminently sensible but yet a further step away from the "hearing the swish of
nice curly shavings being formed while listening to birdsong," doing it for
the love of it approach. Me? I love routers and I think it's O.K. to use
metal fasteners in joinery so I'm not exactly purist about using hand tools
with wooden blades and violin-peg adjustments and I actually like machine-cut
dovetails (I think a hand plane is perfect for peeling apples and mangoes...
) I really really appreciate traditional cabinetmaking, but personally I'd
rather put time into rewriting software than serving an apprenticeship under
a master joiner.

Anyhow

After long and careful deliberation, reading everything I can find and
surfing till my eyes bleed, I've ordered an Incra Sys25 with wonder fence.

It's WAY above the budget, but I've robbed my daughter's piggy bank, torched
the outhouse for the insurance money, sold the family cat into white slavery
and agreed to be the bitch of the head of the local mob for the next
seventy-five years. Oh - and I swiped money from the
fix-the-kitchen-afer-the-ceiling-flood fund so the plastering will have to
wait. I think we'd all agree that that is a legitimate appropriation (think
new kitchen cabinets etc. :-) )

The scheme:

Having learned that it takes about 20 seconds to line up with a saw blade, I
intend to use it as a portable-ish fence for the lousy-cheap TS as well as
for routing, hence the 25 not the 17 inch version.

I can mount it on a clampable baseboard, Option #1

I can screw angle iron to the lousy-cheap TS and add extension wings - router
insert in the left-hand wing, Incra device on the right (movable leftward as
needed) Option #2

OR

Option #3
remove the tiny aluminium table from the lousy-cheap TS and then bolt the
rest of the TS assembly directly under a sheet of Formica'd ply or mdf, which
would then become the much bigger, smooth table top for both the TS and
router.
The saw has an 80mm max cut at 90°, so I could afford to lose a little of
that, I think. Additionally I could then make drop-in kerf plates to give me
zero clearance for whatever angles I'd use, which would be a huge improvement
as the lousy-cheap TS has a paper-thin metal plate with mountings that only
allow paper-thin replacements and a has huge gap which swallows any thin
sections I try to cut.
I' d probably laminate the top up from 2 or 3 sheets of 12mm (mdf?) going
down to single sheet over the lousy-cheap TS with strengthening battens
running full length and widthways. Again I'd value opinions on the scheme. I
don't think it's dangerous in any way - it's not like mounting an inverted CS
on ply, for example (Yikes!!!!), and all the TS mechanism should remain
intact but there might be a problem I haven't thought of, which is why I'm
running it past you guys. I realize it won't be as flat as machined cast
iron, will have more friction and I'll lose some depth of cut compared with
bolting on wings or dropping the _whole_ TS, complete with original top, into
a cut-out in a big sheet.
It WILL, however, give me much greater table width, safer kerf plates and
even a little more in and outfeed surface. I'd probably not use a mitre slot
as such but use a sled sliding along the Incra face (maybe adding a slot in
the sled's surface if necessary?)

Most of the bits are available individually as cheapos, apart from the 3/8 7°
which can come from either CMT or Trend, so that's a worry out of the way.

Phew!!!