Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood. It is not T&G much to my dismay. I
assumed it would be so I didn't ask but it is not. Anyway, I went to
the borg the other day looking at flooring options. I wanted to use
the VCT tiles but the guy there told me the shrinking and expansion
would be too much for the VCT. One problem I definitely have to
account for is moisture. Right now, I can see the ground through
small spaces between the plywood. Here's what I was thinking and what
I would like your thoughts on. I thought that I might put down some
plastic as a moisture barrier then make my own floating floor by
laying down 4'x8' 1/4" masonite or mdf which would be nice and smooth
then hold that all together with the VCT tiles, maybe even tape the
masonite together but not attaching it to the plywood flooring so it
"floats". Is this a dumb idea?

My other possible option is to put down the moisture barrier then
install a laminate floating floor. There is a local store that has
6mm oak laminate flooring on sale for $0.69 sq/ft. I've read in other
posts that it can be slick with saw dust but what about putting some
poly on it then throwing the non-slip sand additive that is used in
garage floor paint to give it a little grip. It would certainly look
really nice in my workshop!

Another option...if I caulk/seal the spaces between the plywood could
I use the rustoleum 2 part epoxy garage floor paint? I still worry
about moisture with this option.

I have a limited amount of $ left for my shop so I'm trying to do
something that will work but not cost $1000 dollars. Any advice would
be appreciated!

Thanks,
Greg

On Jun 16, 7:23 pm, Greg wrote:
Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood. It is not T&G much to my dismay. I
assumed it would be so I didn't ask but it is not. Anyway, I went to
the borg the other day looking at flooring options. I wanted to use
the VCT tiles but the guy there told me the shrinking and expansion
would be too much for the VCT. One problem I definitely have to
account for is moisture. Right now, I can see the ground through
small spaces between the plywood. Here's what I was thinking and what
I would like your thoughts on. I thought that I might put down some
plastic as a moisture barrier then make my own floating floor by
laying down 4'x8' 1/4" masonite or mdf which would be nice and smooth
then hold that all together with the VCT tiles, maybe even tape the
masonite together but not attaching it to the plywood flooring so it
"floats". Is this a dumb idea?

My other possible option is to put down the moisture barrier then
install a laminate floating floor. There is a local store that has
6mm oak laminate flooring on sale for $0.69 sq/ft. I've read in other
posts that it can be slick with saw dust but what about putting some
poly on it then throwing the non-slip sand additive that is used in
garage floor paint to give it a little grip. It would certainly look
really nice in my workshop!

Another option...if I caulk/seal the spaces between the plywood could
I use the rustoleum 2 part epoxy garage floor paint? I still worry
about moisture with this option.

I have a limited amount of $ left for my shop so I'm trying to do
something that will work but not cost $1000 dollars. Any advice would
be appreciated!

Thanks,
Greg

lay down another layer of 3/4" ply, glued and nailed, joints staggered
from the first. paint it.

lay down another layer of 3/4" ply, glued and nailed, joints staggered
from the first. paint it

I agree. No use to get fancy with a shop floor. First, you'll
scratch it all up. Then you'll drill holes in it to get electricity
to your stationary tools out in the middle. Then you'll cover it with
sawdust, then you'll spill glue and paint on it. I've got enough
things to worry about when I'm gluing without worrying about whether I
mess up the floor.

DonkeyHody
"The best things in life . . . aren't things."

Greg wrote:

Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood. It is not T&G much to my dismay. I
assumed it would be so I didn't ask but it is not. Anyway, I went to
the borg the other day looking at flooring options. I wanted to use
the VCT tiles but the guy there told me the shrinking and expansion
would be too much for the VCT. One problem I definitely have to
account for is moisture. Right now, I can see the ground through
small spaces between the plywood. Here's what I was thinking and what
I would like your thoughts on. I thought that I might put down some
plastic as a moisture barrier then make my own floating floor by
laying down 4'x8' 1/4" masonite or mdf which would be nice and smooth
then hold that all together with the VCT tiles, maybe even tape the
masonite together but not attaching it to the plywood flooring so it
"floats". Is this a dumb idea?


What I did when faced with a similar situation was to run a second set of
plywood (I may have used OSB -- don't do that, it splinters really bad)
perpendicular to the sub-floor. That pretty much covers the cracks that
you are seeing. You could half-lap or do tongue and groove if you really
want to totally seal the cracks (I didn't find that necessary when I did
it).


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Greg wrote in news:1bc59a84-aeff-45a9-b47f-
:

Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood. It is not T&G much to my dismay. I
assumed it would be so I didn't ask but it is not. Anyway, I went to
the borg the other day looking at flooring options. I wanted to use
the VCT tiles but the guy there told me the shrinking and expansion
would be too much for the VCT. One problem I definitely have to
account for is moisture. Right now, I can see the ground through
small spaces between the plywood. Here's what I was thinking and what
I would like your thoughts on. I thought that I might put down some
plastic as a moisture barrier then make my own floating floor by
laying down 4'x8' 1/4" masonite or mdf which would be nice and smooth
then hold that all together with the VCT tiles, maybe even tape the
masonite together but not attaching it to the plywood flooring so it
"floats". Is this a dumb idea?

My other possible option is to put down the moisture barrier then
install a laminate floating floor. There is a local store that has
6mm oak laminate flooring on sale for $0.69 sq/ft. I've read in other
posts that it can be slick with saw dust but what about putting some
poly on it then throwing the non-slip sand additive that is used in
garage floor paint to give it a little grip. It would certainly look
really nice in my workshop!

Another option...if I caulk/seal the spaces between the plywood could
I use the rustoleum 2 part epoxy garage floor paint? I still worry
about moisture with this option.

I have a limited amount of $ left for my shop so I'm trying to do
something that will work but not cost $1000 dollars. Any advice would
be appreciated!

Thanks,
Greg

Most people go with concrete, but that's probably going to cost more than
$1000. (It never hurts to call and ask for a "back of the envelope"
quote, though.)

Avoid the laminate. It can get SLICK.

Wood's probably your best bet for an inexpensive non-slick floor.
Sometimes you can get engineered hardwood on sale for $1.50 sq ft or
less, and I think parque tile around here runs about $1 sq ft.

You could also get some T&G plywood, and use the existing plywood as a
sub floor...

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"DonkeyHody" wrote:

lay down another layer of 3/4" ply, glued and nailed, joints
staggered
from the first. paint it

I agree. No use to get fancy with a shop floor.

If you go with a plywood floor which makes a lot of sense, don't leave
it raw.

Prime it with a good oil based primer followed by a couple of coats of
"Porch & Deck" enamel.

Will increase the life and make clean-up easier.

Lew

find a nice small local sawmill.See if they will mill you (or if they
already have) some low-grade pine 2xN stock - get the cheapest you can.

Lay it on perpendicular to the joists, so that when (not if) it warpos, it
will crown in the middle instead of the edges. If you're really motivated,
rout a groove in all 4 sides and put in a shim (effectively making it T+G).

I did a 2000 SF shop this way, and ended up spending more on the spikes than
the wood..... I think it ended up costing something less than $400 for the
whole thing.

Gives you a nice solid floor that doesn't damage dropped tools and is nice
to your knees and ankles. If you do the T+G trick (I did) its pretty much
airtight. no finish needed, it will wear smooth pretty quick, and (based on
some of the old barns I've worked on) should last longer than the rest of
the building.....You can lay it green, but it will shrink a good bit (this
is why I used the splines). The splines also help make sure that the edges
don't get uneven. If a spot does lift a bit and become a trip hazard, a few
minutes with a plane, chisel, or belt sander will knock it right back
down.....


-James

"Greg" wrote in message
...
Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood. It is not T&G much to my dismay. I
assumed it would be so I didn't ask but it is not. Anyway, I went to
the borg the other day looking at flooring options. I wanted to use
the VCT tiles but the guy there told me the shrinking and expansion
would be too much for the VCT. One problem I definitely have to
account for is moisture. Right now, I can see the ground through
small spaces between the plywood. Here's what I was thinking and what
I would like your thoughts on. I thought that I might put down some
plastic as a moisture barrier then make my own floating floor by
laying down 4'x8' 1/4" masonite or mdf which would be nice and smooth
then hold that all together with the VCT tiles, maybe even tape the
masonite together but not attaching it to the plywood flooring so it
"floats". Is this a dumb idea?

My other possible option is to put down the moisture barrier then
install a laminate floating floor. There is a local store that has
6mm oak laminate flooring on sale for $0.69 sq/ft. I've read in other
posts that it can be slick with saw dust but what about putting some
poly on it then throwing the non-slip sand additive that is used in
garage floor paint to give it a little grip. It would certainly look
really nice in my workshop!

Another option...if I caulk/seal the spaces between the plywood could
I use the rustoleum 2 part epoxy garage floor paint? I still worry
about moisture with this option.

I have a limited amount of $ left for my shop so I'm trying to do
something that will work but not cost $1000 dollars. Any advice would
be appreciated!

Thanks,
Greg

Depends on your location, but I would shop around
for some 1x6 t&g southern yellow pine.

This flooring has been around a very long time
and is VERY tough stuff.

You don't even have to finish it but I think I
would give it a few coats of stain or paint
depending on your preference.

How far off the ground is your floor joists ???


Greg wrote:
Hey all,
I want your advice on something. I just got a 16x24 workshop built
and I'm trying to decide what to do with the floor. The floor right
now is 3/4 treated plywood.

On Jun 17, 10:30*am, Pat Barber wrote:
Depends on your location, but I would shop around
for some 1x6 t&g southern yellow pine.

This flooring has been around a very long time
and is VERY tough stuff.

You don't even have to finish it but I think I
would give it a few coats of stain or paint
depending on your preference.

How far off the ground is your floor joists ???


At the lowest point, the joists are about 7" off the ground. I'll
check into either a plywood or wood flooring. I think my problem is
that I basically wanted to treat what is essentially the subfloor as
the floor. I didn't account for this extra cost.

Greg

Greg wrote:

I think my problem is
that I basically wanted to treat what is essentially the subfloor as
the floor. I didn't account for this extra cost.

It's fairly common for outbuildings to not have a separate floor...I'm
building a 8x12 shed and it will have only a single layer of ply (T&G
though) for the floor.

Do you actually need to do anything? How much of a problem would it be
to have small cracks in your floor? Are you sealing up the room and
using A/C and/or heater, or will it have natural air circulation anyways?

If the cracks are the only problem, what about cutting small strips of
ply or 1x4 and getting someone to hold them up underneath the joints
between the sheets while you screw through both sheets of ply into the
bracing strip. Voila...no more gaps.

Chris

"Greg" wrote

Another option...if I caulk/seal the spaces between the plywood could
I use the rustoleum 2 part epoxy garage floor paint? I still worry
about moisture with this option.

I have a limited amount of $ left for my shop so I'm trying to do
something that will work but not cost $1000 dollars. Any advice would
be appreciated!

The current gaps in the subfloor, since T&G was not used, are actually a
benefit to you as plywood, laid with tight butt joints, has a habit of
buckling with the weather, causing anything else you put on it to do
likewise.

The advice to use painted 3/4" plywood over the existing subfloor,
overlapping the joints, is a good one for a shop building.

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Greg
How is the workshop built? Do you have a vapor barrier between the
ground and shed? If not I'd strongly suggest that you have a vapor
barrier between the shop floor and ground. Sheds built close to the
ground without a vapor barrier tend to have the joists rot, and
acquire a strong earthy odor. Higher moisture levels in the shop won't
help the rust situation either.

Good Luck

Swingman wrote:
....

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.

Any vapor barrier between the two (that is on top of the existing
subfloor) is the wrong place and will do more harm than good...

A vapor barrier (or at least retardant) of a plastic on the ground under
the building is a minimum imo unless OP is in a _very_ dry climate.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:
...

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if
makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.

Any vapor barrier between the two (that is on top of the existing
subfloor) is the wrong place and will do more harm than good...

Cite please.

Acutally, here is the correct way to use a "moisture/vapor" barrier on a
wooden subfloor on a crawl/above grade space:

http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/tech...radelevel.html

A vapor barrier (or at least retardant) of a plastic on the ground under
the building is a minimum imo unless OP is in a _very_ dry climate.

Plastic moisture barrier in contact with the ground eventually degrade to
the point of uselessnes. I routinely use a 3" thick, non reinforced,
concrete, drained, "mud slab" on the house I build on crawlspaces.

Used in conjunction with proper drainage, and with proper crawlspace
ventilation (a code requirement in most locations), it is, IME, the most
long-lasting method of moisture/mildew control with regard to floors,
subfloors and floor joists in a crawl/above grade space.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"dpb" wrote

A vapor barrier (or at least retardant) of a plastic on the ground under
the building is a minimum imo unless OP is in a _very_ dry climate.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B403_Hi...Barriers.shtml

Most builders, interested in saving a buck, fool themselves into believing
the xMil Poly/plastic products sold in the construction business as
"moisture/vapor" barriers will last.

As the author states, an alkali soil will hasten degradation of this oft
used product. What he doesn't say is this degradation is further
accelerated with bacterial action in the warm, moist environment found under
houses.

As a builder, and because of the subsidence in this area of the Gulf Coast,
many municipalities are now mandating crawlspace foundations (the city of
Bellaire, TX is almost all mandated crawlspace in most parts), I spent a
good deal of time trying out various ways to deal with moisture issues in
crawlspaces. The above is exactly why I quit using "2,4,6 mil poly"
"moisture" barriers on soil under the houses I build on grade/crawlspaces
and switched to a polyethylene underlay with concrete mud slabs, and good
drainage and ventilation, to mitigate moisture problems.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:
...

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if
makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.
Any vapor barrier between the two (that is on top of the existing
subfloor) is the wrong place and will do more harm than good...

Cite please.

Observation...

Acutally, here is the correct way to use a "moisture/vapor" barrier on a
wooden subfloor on a crawl/above grade space:

That's a vapor retarder as opposed to barrier -- and I'll grant you did
say paper, not plastic.

--

"dpb" wrote

That's a vapor retarder as opposed to barrier -- and I'll grant you did
say paper, not plastic.


LOL ... nice try. Go back and read the _caption_ above the picture.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
"dpb" wrote

That's a vapor retarder as opposed to barrier -- and I'll grant you did
say paper, not plastic.


LOL ... nice try. Go back and read the _caption_ above the picture.

Whatever you say if you have to "win"...

But read the full text and you'll ken the meaning...note they point out
over concrete additional retarder _or barrier_ (emphasis mine) may be
desirable over the concrete. Same goes for the ground.

An _impermeable_ barrier there is likely to cause condensation on the
cold side.

--

dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:
...

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if
makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.


Any vapor barrier between the two (that is on top of the existing
subfloor) is the wrong place and will do more harm than good...

Vapour barrier/retarder are the same thing...it's not actually a
barrier, so they're switching to the "retarder" terminology.

The purpose of the vapour barrier is to prevent condensation on the
framing/insulation. Hence it is usually placed on the warm side of
both, to prevent warm (and hence more moist) air from hitting the cooler
structure.

In cold climates it goes on the interior, in hot climates it goes on the
exterior. There is actually a narrow geographical band where no barrier
is recommended.

There's decent information at:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=11810

Chris

On Jun 17, 2:21*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:
...

You can use rosin/felt paper for a vapor barrier between the two it if
makes
you feel better, but I would not consider it a necessity.

Any vapor barrier between the two (that is on top of the existing
subfloor) is the wrong place and will do more harm than good...

Cite please.

Acutally, here is the correct way to use a "moisture/vapor" barrier on a
wooden subfloor on a crawl/above grade space:

http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/tech...radelevel.html

A vapor barrier (or at least retardant) of a plastic on the ground under
the building is a minimum imo unless OP is in a _very_ dry climate.

Plastic moisture barrier in contact with the ground eventually degrade to
the point of uselessnes. I routinely use a 3" thick, non reinforced,
concrete, drained, "mud slab" on the house I build on crawlspaces.

Used in conjunction with proper drainage, and with proper crawlspace
ventilation (a code requirement in most locations), it is, IME, the most
long-lasting method of moisture/mildew control with regard to floors,
subfloors and floor joists in a crawl/above grade space.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

The skids, joists and floor are all treated.

Another layer of plywood sounds like the way to go but I'm
curious...why another layer of 3/4"? Why wouldn't 1/2" or even 1/4"
do? 3/4" seems like overkill to me.

Thanks,
Greg

dpb wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"dpb" wrote

That's a vapor retarder as opposed to barrier -- and I'll grant you did
say paper, not plastic.

I shouldn't have used "any", however, granted, but was thinking of
impermeable.

--

"Greg" wrote

The skids, joists and floor are all treated.

As they should be.

Another layer of plywood sounds like the way to go but I'm
curious...why another layer of 3/4"? Why wouldn't 1/2" or even 1/4"
do? 3/4" seems like overkill to me.

In a word, "durability" ... 1/4" will be a bit too easy to puncture, will
quickly suffer from moving equipment across, and will certainly warp more
easily with temperature/humidity changes.

1/2 would certainly work, but is simply not as durable to move shop
equipment over for any length of time.

The idea is to do it only once in your lifetime.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Chris Friesen" wrote

In cold climates it goes on the interior, in hot climates it goes on the
exterior. There is actually a narrow geographical band where no barrier
is recommended.

However, note the specific use of the term "walls" in the diagram ... this
is an important distinction/departure from the subject under discussion.

There's decent information at:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=11810

Good general info, particularly for "walls" and foundations ... they even
mention the "seal/mudslab" that I use over polyethylene in crawlspace
foundations as being a good thing ... but again, and unless I just missed
it, the main thrust of this article does not deal with, and indeed shies
away from, the subject of "floors" (to wit: no hyperlink on the word
"floor").

IME, that's not unusual when dealing with floor "moisture/vapor
barrier/retarder" issues.

Good info, nonetheless.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:04:26 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:



As a builder, and because of the subsidence in this area of the Gulf Coast,
many municipalities are now mandating crawlspace foundations (the city of
Bellaire, TX is almost all mandated crawlspace in most parts)

Having made the decision to move and build, I am collecting knowledge.

What is the nature of the problem leading to the madate. Differential
settling? Something else?

How does the crawl space foundation mitigate the problem. Or does it
just make the future remedial work, if necessary, easier and less
costly.

With the mandates, do you have a choice of footing and block curb,
poured curb, or spread footings and piers?

Have been leaning toward a crawl space (depending on the final
location) however have only owned monolithic slabs, or in the case of
my Oklahoma residence, a three pour foundation, continuous footing to
frost line, curbwall, and then slab poured after the installation of
ductwork and plumbing and sand fill. Most of my current neighbors
have crawl space and there are some problems. One of my neighbors
actually has a catch basin and drain in his crawl space to divert an
underground spring. As long as the water is moving on, not standing,
seems to be OK.


Thanks,

Frank

, I spent a
good deal of time trying out various ways to deal with moisture issues in
crawlspaces. The above is exactly why I quit using "2,4,6 mil poly"
"moisture" barriers on soil under the houses I build on grade/crawlspaces
and switched to a polyethylene underlay with concrete mud slabs, and good
drainage and ventilation, to mitigate moisture problems.

Another layer of plywood sounds like the way to go but I'm
curious...why another layer of 3/4"? Why wouldn't 1/2" or even 1/4"
do? 3/4" seems like overkill to me.

Thanks,
Greg



I guess it depends on what kind of machines you have. if you have a
sheet metal and aluminum benchtop table saw you can go with a pretty
light floor. if you have or think you might want to get someday
heavier cast iron machines (which I definitely recommend) you will
quickly come to appreciate the added strength and stiffness of the
heavier floor.

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:52:38 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


"Greg" wrote

The skids, joists and floor are all treated.

As they should be.

Another layer of plywood sounds like the way to go but I'm
curious...why another layer of 3/4"? Why wouldn't 1/2" or even 1/4"
do? 3/4" seems like overkill to me.

In a word, "durability" ... 1/4" will be a bit too easy to puncture, will
quickly suffer from moving equipment across, and will certainly warp more
easily with temperature/humidity changes.

1/2 would certainly work, but is simply not as durable to move shop
equipment over for any length of time.

The idea is to do it only once in your lifetime.

If that is the aim,1X2 white oak or maple (or other hardwood)laid on
edge is the way to go.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

"Swingman" wrote:

As a builder, and because of the subsidence in this area of the Gulf
Coast,
many municipalities are now mandating crawlspace foundations (the city of
Bellaire, TX is almost all mandated crawlspace in most parts)

Having made the decision to move and build, I am collecting knowledge.

What is the nature of the problem leading to the madate. Differential
settling? Something else?

How does the crawl space foundation mitigate the problem.

Answer to both: subsidence, and a change in the 100 year flood plain map as
a result of TS Alison in 2001.

A crawl space foundation is usually a better alternative to a monolithic
foundation of great height with regard to cost (my own house is on a
monolithic slab on grade, 3' above grade ... I flooded in Alison ... never
again!)

Or does it
just make the future remedial work, if necessary, easier and less
costly.

It does that nicely, as a benefit, but it also has its downside .. movement.

Although the results of movement with a crawl space foundation is usually
cosmetic and rarely catastrophic, as often happens with a cracked slab on
grade.

With the mandates, do you have a choice of footing and block curb,
poured curb, or spread footings and piers?

That dog is wagged by the "soil survey/report" tail. You foundation choice
is generally, and strictly, limited to what the soil report dictates in many
areas today.

Last crawlspace foundation I built here, in 2005, was drilled bell bottom
piers, w/grade beams penetrating 6" below grade, 3' above, and topped with a
pony wall.

Have been leaning toward a crawl space (depending on the final
location) however have only owned monolithic slabs, or in the case of
my Oklahoma residence, a three pour foundation, continuous footing to
frost line, curbwall, and then slab poured after the installation of
ductwork and plumbing and sand fill. Most of my current neighbors
have crawl space and there are some problems. One of my neighbors
actually has a catch basin and drain in his crawl space to divert an
underground spring. As long as the water is moving on, not standing,
seems to be OK.

This is the solution I've chosen to solve the prolbem in our flatlands:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/mudslab.gif

Pictured is a drawing of what we call a "mud slab" under the house and
bounded by the grade beams (may be more technically known as a "seal lab" in
PE parlance).

As I mentioned in a previous post, it is a layer of polyethylene, topped
with 3" of unreinforced concrete, with six "area drains", all within the
perimeter of the grade beams.

You can see the drainage slope arrows in the picture. We contour these, by
hand to insure this slope to each of these six drains. IOW, any water that
does manage to get into the crawlspace will not soak into the ground, will
not stand and will be immediately drained to the street, which is
approximately 2' below the foundation grade (the finished floor on this
particular house was almost 5' above street level. (the link above is the
mud slab portion of that particular foundation/drainage plan for this house)

In addition, we calculate the ventilation needs and spec the number of vents
needed based on the prevailing air currents, the location of nearby
structures, etc.

These three elements in combination: mud slab, drainage, and ventilation, go
further than anything else I've seen/used to mitigate moisture problems
under a crawl space, which also effects your floors above.

I'm continually surprised that more builders in this area don't use this or
similar methods. My houses are in the $750 to $1 million range and most of
those who build in this range don't even bother with a vapor barrier on the
dirt under their crawl spaces ... walk by two years later and you can
actually smell the difference all the way from the street!

Let me know if I can answer any of your questions. Things are very regional
with regard to methods of construction, but every house I've built in the
last six years has been field tested and rated "Energy Star", so I'm fairly
versed in building to these standards, which are much more strict than IECC,
with the actual test results being the proof of the pudding.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jun 17, 8:15 am, "jd" wrote:
find a nice small local sawmill.See if they will mill you (or if they
already have) some low-grade pine 2xN stock - get the cheapest you can.

Lay it on perpendicular to the joists, so that when (not if) it warpos, it
will crown in the middle instead of the edges...

It is also much stiffer that way.

--

FF

if you can find someone with a portable bandsaw mill, they may be able to
provide you with green lumber for cheap...
-James



"Greg" wrote in message
...
On Jun 17, 10:30 am, Pat Barber wrote:
Depends on your location, but I would shop around
for some 1x6 t&g southern yellow pine.

This flooring has been around a very long time
and is VERY tough stuff.

You don't even have to finish it but I think I
would give it a few coats of stain or paint
depending on your preference.

How far off the ground is your floor joists ???


At the lowest point, the joists are about 7" off the ground. I'll
check into either a plywood or wood flooring. I think my problem is
that I basically wanted to treat what is essentially the subfloor as
the floor. I didn't account for this extra cost.

Greg

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:33:50 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote

"Swingman" wrote:

As a builder, and because of the subsidence in this area of the Gulf
Coast,
many municipalities are now mandating crawlspace foundations (the city of
Bellaire, TX is almost all mandated crawlspace in most parts)

Having made the decision to move and build, I am collecting knowledge.

What is the nature of the problem leading to the madate. Differential
settling? Something else?

How does the crawl space foundation mitigate the problem.

Answer to both: subsidence, and a change in the 100 year flood plain map as
a result of TS Alison in 2001.

A crawl space foundation is usually a better alternative to a monolithic
foundation of great height with regard to cost (my own house is on a
monolithic slab on grade, 3' above grade ... I flooded in Alison ... never
again!)

Or does it
just make the future remedial work, if necessary, easier and less
costly.

It does that nicely, as a benefit, but it also has its downside .. movement.

Although the results of movement with a crawl space foundation is usually
cosmetic and rarely catastrophic, as often happens with a cracked slab on
grade.

With the mandates, do you have a choice of footing and block curb,
poured curb, or spread footings and piers?

That dog is wagged by the "soil survey/report" tail. You foundation choice
is generally, and strictly, limited to what the soil report dictates in many
areas today.

Last crawlspace foundation I built here, in 2005, was drilled bell bottom
piers, w/grade beams penetrating 6" below grade, 3' above, and topped with a
pony wall.

Have been leaning toward a crawl space (depending on the final
location) however have only owned monolithic slabs, or in the case of
my Oklahoma residence, a three pour foundation, continuous footing to
frost line, curbwall, and then slab poured after the installation of
ductwork and plumbing and sand fill. Most of my current neighbors
have crawl space and there are some problems. One of my neighbors
actually has a catch basin and drain in his crawl space to divert an
underground spring. As long as the water is moving on, not standing,
seems to be OK.

This is the solution I've chosen to solve the prolbem in our flatlands:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/mudslab.gif

Pictured is a drawing of what we call a "mud slab" under the house and
bounded by the grade beams (may be more technically known as a "seal lab" in
PE parlance).

As I mentioned in a previous post, it is a layer of polyethylene, topped
with 3" of unreinforced concrete, with six "area drains", all within the
perimeter of the grade beams.

You can see the drainage slope arrows in the picture. We contour these, by
hand to insure this slope to each of these six drains. IOW, any water that
does manage to get into the crawlspace will not soak into the ground, will
not stand and will be immediately drained to the street, which is
approximately 2' below the foundation grade (the finished floor on this
particular house was almost 5' above street level. (the link above is the
mud slab portion of that particular foundation/drainage plan for this house)

In addition, we calculate the ventilation needs and spec the number of vents
needed based on the prevailing air currents, the location of nearby
structures, etc.

These three elements in combination: mud slab, drainage, and ventilation, go
further than anything else I've seen/used to mitigate moisture problems
under a crawl space, which also effects your floors above.

I'm continually surprised that more builders in this area don't use this or
similar methods. My houses are in the $750 to $1 million range and most of
those who build in this range don't even bother with a vapor barrier on the
dirt under their crawl spaces ... walk by two years later and you can
actually smell the difference all the way from the street!

Let me know if I can answer any of your questions. Things are very regional
with regard to methods of construction, but every house I've built in the
last six years has been field tested and rated "Energy Star", so I'm fairly
versed in building to these standards, which are much more strict than IECC,
with the actual test results being the proof of the pudding.


Good information. Thanks.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

Good information. Thanks.

You're most welcome ... just remember that the proudly proclaimed "built to
code" house is in fact a house built to the minimum possible standards that
the builder can get away with.

If you keep that in mind, any innate skepticism should immediately kick into
gear.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:59:50 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

You're most welcome ... just remember that the proudly proclaimed "built to
code" house is in fact a house built to the minimum possible standards that
the builder can get away with.

Just like a pilot who passed a check ride or a driver with the MV
test.

At least as good as the minimum standards... Pass / Fail.

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