As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.

Yet we still question,
Mark

"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.


Well getting less food is probably a good thing. We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.
The Borg is convenient, and that is its only value IMHO.

"Leon" wrote:


"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.


Well getting less food is probably a good thing. We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.
The Borg is convenient, and that is its only value IMHO.

Simple Marketing. Most people will notice a price change, MUCH
quicker than they will notice a quantity change. Which means a
quantity change will have less impact on sales than a price change.
Which, ultimately, makes it a much more desireable way to raise
prices, for a bean-counter with his eye on the bottom line.

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

-Kevin in Indy - who's got an Orange Borg & Green Borg within 2 miles
- Woodcraft & 84 Lumber, 3 miles, Blue Borg, 4 miles, Harbor Freight &
Rockler 5 miles, Sears Hardware & Ace Hardware, 6 miles. I think I'm
about to be assimilated.
To reply, remove (+spamproof+) from address........

Wait a minute. The OP said people noticed the wire was cheaper at the
borg, so they put less wire in the box AND they lowered the price.
Honestly, as a consumer it is up to you to keep track of what you are
paying. Yeah, maybe they cut the amount of wire by 20% and only
lowered the price by 15% but you can easily figure that out.

I like the bogs. I like Rockler and Woodcraft. I like mon and pop
stores but on the things that matter I know who charges what and if
they are mostly too expensive, I stop shopping there. Typically the
borg has pretty good prices but if it is something I buy often or is
expensive, I see who has the best price before I buy.

BW


On Mar 17, 5:37*pm, Kevin M. Vernon
wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? *Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.

Well getting less food is probably a good thing. *We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. *Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.
The Borg is convenient, and that is its only value IMHO.

Simple Marketing. *Most people will notice a price change, MUCH
quicker than they will notice a quantity change. *Which means a
quantity change will have less impact on sales than a price change.
Which, ultimately, makes it a much more desireable way to raise
prices, for a bean-counter with his eye on the bottom line.

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

-Kevin in Indy - who's got an Orange Borg & Green Borg within 2 miles
- Woodcraft & 84 Lumber, 3 miles, Blue Borg, 4 miles, Harbor Freight &
Rockler 5 miles, Sears Hardware & Ace Hardware, 6 miles. *I think I'm
about to be assimilated.
To reply, remove (+spamproof+) from address........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 17, 10:29*pm, "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
Wait a minute. The OP said people noticed the wire was cheaper at the
borg, so they put less wire in the box AND they lowered the price.
Honestly, as a consumer it is up to you to keep track of what you are
paying. Yeah, maybe they cut the amount of wire by 20% and only
lowered the price by 15% but you can easily figure that out.

I like the bogs. I like Rockler and Woodcraft. I like mon and pop
stores but on the things that matter I know who charges what and if
they are mostly too expensive, I stop shopping there. Typically the
borg has pretty good prices but if it is something I buy often or is
expensive, I see who has the best price before I buy.

BW

On Mar 17, 5:37*pm, Kevin M. Vernon
wrote:



"Leon" wrote:

"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
....
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? *Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.

Well getting less food is probably a good thing. *We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. *Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.
The Borg is convenient, and that is its only value IMHO.

Simple Marketing. *Most people will notice a price change, MUCH
quicker than they will notice a quantity change. *Which means a
quantity change will have less impact on sales than a price change.
Which, ultimately, makes it a much more desireable way to raise
prices, for a bean-counter with his eye on the bottom line.

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

-Kevin in Indy - who's got an Orange Borg & Green Borg within 2 miles
- Woodcraft & 84 Lumber, 3 miles, Blue Borg, 4 miles, Harbor Freight &
Rockler 5 miles, Sears Hardware & Ace Hardware, 6 miles. *I think I'm
about to be assimilated.
To reply, remove (+spamproof+) from address........- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not sure about the pricing but I will make a call tomorrow and
post what I find. I am pretty confident that the price likely doesnt
reflect the reduction to 200' quantity in the box however I am also
pretty comfortable that they are not charging for 200' of wire the
same as they did for 250'. Its likely a split somewhere in the middle.

The fact of the matter is if you cant see when a company is willfully
changing an industry standard in an attempt to deceive consumers to
maintain sales, then you should be on the board or are perhaps a
corporate lawyer. I agree with you 100 percent that it is ultimately
up to the consumer to monitor purchases and that they inffact have
driven the industry to where it is. This will however become a
fulltime job and would apply to every single item you purchase if this
became the practice as a whole.

The system that you propose support of is infact working in reverse.
Rather than a corporation being supported by satisfied customers, the
corporation is trying to sustain itself through customer deceit. This
has actually basically been their mission statement from the get go.
Of course if the bigger system truley works, this deceit should result
in dissatisfaction which should result in change, and if refused,
failure.

Mark

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:29:23 -0700 (PDT), BDBConstruction
wrote:


The fact of the matter is if you cant see when a company is willfully
changing an industry standard in an attempt to deceive consumers to
maintain sales, then you should be on the board or are perhaps a
corporate lawyer. I agree with you 100 percent that it is ultimately
up to the consumer to monitor purchases and that they inffact have
driven the industry to where it is. This will however become a
fulltime job and would apply to every single item you purchase if this
became the practice as a whole.

I can't reply about industry standards, not being in the industry, but in
California and Arizona, the borgs use "unit pricing" like the grocery stores
do.. just check how much per foot each place wants and buy the best deal..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"BDBConstruction" wrote:

I am not sure about the pricing but I will make a call tomorrow and
post what I find.

I can remember a time when a wire quote was only good for 1/2 day.

With the price of scrap copper above $3/lb, I'm surprised the wire people
aren't quoting price in effect at time of shipment.

It's been done before.

Lew

"Kevin M. Vernon" wrote

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

There you have it!


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 18, 7:44 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Kevin M. Vernon" wrote

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

There you have it!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 18, 7:44 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Kevin M. Vernon" wrote

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

There you have it!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Wow... I think I have had all the coffee I should have on this rainy
day.. Fidgety fingers fired off that shot before I could type DITTO.

*knees knocking*

*clickety click*

*teeth chattering*

Robert

Snippage

Simple Marketing. Most people will notice a price change, MUCH
quicker than they will notice a quantity change. Which means a
quantity change will have less impact on sales than a price change.
Which, ultimately, makes it a much more desireable way to raise
prices, for a bean-counter with his eye on the bottom line.

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.


Here is another one that gets me. I was in the grocery store a while
back and decided that I would buy some Pringles (don't ask me why).
They had two-packs on the shelf and I figured that they MUST be a deal.
When I actually looked at the pricing, it was 10 cents CHEAPER to buy
two single tubes than the two-pack. I saw that on other things in the
store too. Not always, but enough to know you have to check.

Wayne


-Kevin in Indy - who's got an Orange Borg & Green Borg within 2 miles
- Woodcraft & 84 Lumber, 3 miles, Blue Borg, 4 miles, Harbor Freight &
Rockler 5 miles, Sears Hardware & Ace Hardware, 6 miles. I think I'm
about to be assimilated.

Blue and Orange Borg directly across the street from each other about 3
mi west with a green about a mile further down the same road. Big B
about 4 mi east. Fortunately, Rockler is about 25 miles away with a HF
right next door to it, and Woodcraft is about 35 miles away down a
different highway. UNfortunately, my favorite True Value was forced out
of business by the city. Ace is about 12mi. Only places to buy good
hardwood are 25mi, 35 mi, and 50 miles away with the two closer places
being very small with minimal selection, and the last one is a
MacBeath's in the Peoples Republic of Bezerkely.

On Mar 17, 8:37 pm, Kevin M. Vernon
wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.

Well getting less food is probably a good thing. We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.
The Borg is convenient, and that is its only value IMHO.

Simple Marketing. Most people will notice a price change, MUCH
quicker than they will notice a quantity change. Which means a
quantity change will have less impact on sales than a price change.
Which, ultimately, makes it a much more desireable way to raise
prices, for a bean-counter with his eye on the bottom line.

Nobody ever went broke by understimating the stupidity of the average
consumer.

-Kevin in Indy - who's got an Orange Borg & Green Borg within 2 miles
- Woodcraft & 84 Lumber, 3 miles, Blue Borg, 4 miles, Harbor Freight &
Rockler 5 miles, Sears Hardware & Ace Hardware, 6 miles. I think I'm
about to be assimilated.
To reply, remove (+spamproof+) from address........



ever get to see a paycheck?

shelly

Leon wrote:
"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.


Well getting less food is probably a good thing. We all probably need to
eat less.
As for the Borg pricing in Houston, the Borg has just about always been the
highest place to buy. Same items at the local hard ware store are less
expensive.

I've noticed the same here. I work in
Ottawa in Ontario, as well as in a
Quebec city across the river, where
there are quite a number of HDs and a
Quebec equivalent called Reno Depot.

I live in a very small town about 30
miles away, which has a local
hardware/lumber store. It's small, and
doesn't have near the stock that the
stores in the city have, but the prices
on almost everything are no more than
the larger centres, and at times they
are cheaper. If they don't have stock,
they'll often order for me.

It's not Lee Valley, and they don't
stock exotic woods. But then neither do
the Borgs.

Plus, it's really nice to walk into a
store and be greeted by my first name.

Tanus

"BDBConstruction" wrote:

Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

Paper products, especially toilet paper, is another.

Lew

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:09:36 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"BDBConstruction" wrote:

Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

That's been going on for more than ten years. 13oz? I haven't seen
anything bigger than 12oz in any grocery store in this century. The
one huge exception is Dunkin Donuts. They still sell a 1lb bag at a
fairly reasonable price--at Christmas, it's half price. Don't scoff.
DD is right up there with MickyDs for good tasting coffee. People who
think Starbucks is good coffee need not continue in this thread.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote

DD is right up there with MickyDs for good tasting coffee. People who
think Starbucks is good coffee need not continue in this thread.

Any college student will confirm that in a heartbeat. When visiting I asked
my college senior daughter where the best cup of coffee in town was, and her
quick reply was "Duncan Donuts".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote:

Any college student will confirm that in a heartbeat. When visiting I
asked
my college senior daughter where the best cup of coffee in town was, and
her
quick reply was "Duncan Donuts".

That the same as "Dunkin Donuts"?

Lew

Duncan Donuts sells more coffee than anyone else in the US.

Surprising but true.

The best coffee doesn't come from any particular company though. It
comes by region. If you buy a straight cup of Sumatra from Starbucks
(no flavored corn syrup, frothed milk, etc) then odds are it's
essentially the same as Sumatra from say Java City or the Publix down
the street. Companies who roast their own beans don't make much of a
difference either. A medium roasted Sidamo will taste about the same
no matter who does the roasting. Also, Starbucks, Duncan, Brothers,
etc. all buy their coffee from the same markets.

Most starbucks coffee is made from crappy (cheapest in the current
market) beans that are dark roasted for a strong flavor. Then it's
labeled as their "expresso" brand. Once it's brewed with a bunch of
cream, corn syrup and artificial sweeteners then the flavor of the
coffee itself is lost. If you buy bags of their expresso beans you'll
find the taste varies from bag to bag. It's all really dark so the
difference is harder to detect but it's there.

If you haven't tasted different coffees from around the world then
it's hard to understand what a good cup of coffee really is!!

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
"BDBConstruction" wrote:

Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

Paper products, especially toilet paper, is another.

Lew
The thing that bothers me about the downsizing to keep the same price
point- you are also paying for the change in packaging and the associated
changeover (if any) in the production line. Pat

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:10:01 -0700, "patrick mitchel" wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...
"BDBConstruction" wrote:

Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

Paper products, especially toilet paper, is another.

Lew
The thing that bothers me about the downsizing to keep the same price
point- you are also paying for the change in packaging and the associated
changeover (if any) in the production line. Pat

Only if you buy it... If you don't, it goes to the Dollar store..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mar 17, 10:09*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"BDBConstruction" wrote:
Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

Paper products, especially toilet paper, is another.

Lew

Agreed, I too shop for food. An average pound of pasta has been 12oz
for quite some time. Especially since the petroleum conundrum
companies across the board have been reducing the product while
maintaining the exact package size, and in many cases increasing the
price, to offset additional costs which they feel they can not pass on
to consumers through price alone.

The issue for me is attempted and willfull deception. I see both sides
of it. Kudo's to the marketing agency who gets a big bonus for coming
up with a way to save the corporation millions annually and yet I also
see the family who grabs the same box off the shelf they have been
grabbing for 15 or 20 years only to realize after a several purchases
that the company has rooked them.

This is a common practice across the board, that is no news to anyone.
The issue for me is as I said, willfull deception in an attempt to
deceive the consumer. In this case, a 250' box is basically an
industry standard and has been well established for decades. It is
further compounded by them changing the infomation on the packaging in
an attempt "not" to inform the customer of the quantity change rather
than to inform them.

This would be like you going to a rack of plywood and because it
doesnt say 4x8 on it, you get it home only to put your tape on it and
have it measure 45" x 93". The same would be true, buyer beware.

Mark

"BDBConstruction" wrote in message
...

The issue for me is attempted and willfull deception. I see both sides
of it. Kudo's to the marketing agency who gets a big bonus for coming
up with a way to save the corporation millions annually and yet I also
see the family who grabs the same box off the shelf they have been
grabbing for 15 or 20 years only to realize after a several purchases
that the company has rooked them.


It will be worthwhile seeing what you discover upon calling yourself. Where
I live HD is still selling 250' rolls of wire. No repackaging to 200'. No
deception.

--

-Mike-

On Mar 17, 9:07 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:

SNIP

This would be like you going to a rack of plywood and because it
doesnt say 4x8 on it, you get it home only to put your tape on it and
have it measure 45" x 93". The same would be true, buyer beware.

I understand what you are saying to some extent. But on the other
hand, the rule of the land has been "caveat emptor" in all dealings
since I can remember. I don't buy anything for a job without checking
out everything along the way as I make my order up. For example, I
have two roofs with all the goodies to install in the next couple of
weeks.

I called my shingle vendor when bidding them, and found that not only
did we have a price increases in December, February and March, but we
are face with another from the manufacturer in April. I have dealt
with these guys for literally 15 years, and none of us has ever seen
the kind of profiteering going on right now.

But do they call me and say, "hey Robert, we are not going to carry
the Elk High Point Ridge vent, we are going to another that is more
expensive." Do they call me when their fuel surcharge goes up? No.
Does my local paint dealer call me when paint goes up? No. Do they
me and every other of their thousand contractors in their list of
clients when they modify or change their delivery charge? No.

I look at it this way. It is my money going out on a job. Period.
It is my responsibility to make sure it is protected; most likely I
won't get anything more than a sigh from my clients when I tell them
prices went up from the time I bid and the signed to the time work
starts. So I do the best I can, knowing I might take a little in the
shorts. But the point being, I do my homework up front and try not to
take anything for granted.

I understand your burning and obvious hatred of HD. I do. Most of
the time they are of little or no use to me as a contractor. But they
have a job to do as well, and none of us really know if their
marketing department didn't find in their research that all of these
people in the TV inspired home improvement wave didn't need the 250',
but would be fine with 200'. I don't know. I really don't care.

I think repackaging is part of marketing, and no retailer will shy
away from a chance to make more money. Being a contractor has made me
a better shopper everywhere, as I use the same techniques for personal
purchases that I do for my business. The first rule of course, is not
to take anything for granted when gathering prices.

In the face of the onslaught of hard competition from the big boxes,
my local hardware stores and lumber yards started playing stink finger
LONG before the big boxes.
I thought that "my boys" down at the local lumberyard would have lower
costs on things because the didn't have the overhead, didn't have to
pay any of the employees health insurance unless they were full time,
and they didn't have an advertising budget. Wrong.

I even paid more to them when I knew I was paying too much since I
wanted to keep the money local, and I did get a little bit better
service from them. But when I started paying waaay too much to them,
how could I justify it. So that they could keep their margins up to
the levels they had when they were the only game in town, they started
selling smaller boxes of nails, off brands of different staple items
like caulk and sealers, and a lot of different off shore stuff began
to sneak into the tool corral.

And if something breaks at HD, you take it back, and you are taken
care of. If it breaks that local lumberyard, they don't want to RTV
it, so they can make it a little harder. The manager of the hardware
store used to tell me, "awww come on... it's just Chinese crap and you
knew it when you bought it. How long did you think it would last?"

Now I am careful and suspicious with all of my purchases. I ask what
size a product is, I ask what amount is in the package, and I ask for
any price increases that might be in effect soon.

Just a few thoughts. Like I said, I understand what you are saying,
but there isn't a damn thing we can do about all of this but to be
aware of more and more aggressive marketing to get our dollars. So
indeed, it is up to all of us to be savvy consumers on point all the
time. A screwing will happen from time to time no matter what we do.
But if a box is marked in plain view, I don't know other than telling
someone how much wire is in a box (in writing) they purchase what a
retailer can do.

The surprise sure isn't pleasant, though.

Just my 0.02.

Robert

wrote:

SNIP

I called my shingle vendor when bidding them, and found that not only
did we have a price increases in December, February and March, but we
are face with another from the manufacturer in April.

You'll be lucky if there is only one (1) price increase in April.

After all , shingles are mostly asphalt as in oil based.

Lew

On Mar 18, 11:09 am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

You'll be lucky if there is only one (1) price increase in April.

That's what they are saying.

After all , shingles are mostly asphalt as in oil based.

Actually, it is smaller part of the composition of a standard
laminated fiberglass shingle than one might think:

http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/ConDemo/Shingles/

And remember, the apshaltic/coal residues used in shingle manufacture
are actually the by products of refining. And 25% of the overall cost
of goods to manufacture doesn't amount to much.

Even when they factor in the transportation costs, the .40 a gallon
raise per gallon of fuel doesn't translate in direct proportion to the
price we are seeing at the vendor.

And average truck brings in 190 or so squares of roofing. If they go
up on their prices about 20% in 4 months, that means an increase of
pricing to my supplier of a little over $1000. Owens Corning already
charges (and adjusts to fuel pricing - per load!) of $175,
to defray fuel costs from Houston/Temple. That will buy them their
entire fuel to the vendor, there and back.

Nawww... there is some monkey shines going on. That $1000 went in
part to cover the 25% cost of material in a shingle, but where did the
other 75% go with all fuel charges covered? And BTW, I also pay my
vendor to deliver and roof load as well as a fuel charge.

But again, who can stop it? I just call for prices, and then put a 15
day start clause in my short contracts to make sure I can be covered
on the costs.

Robert

On Mar 18, 12:42*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 17, 9:07 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:

SNIP

This would be like you going to a rack of plywood and because it
doesnt say 4x8 on it, you get it home only to put your tape on it and
have it measure 45" x 93". The same would be true, buyer beware.

I understand what you are saying to some extent. *But on the other
hand, the rule of the land has been "caveat emptor" in all dealings
since I can remember. *I don't buy anything for a job without checking
out everything along the way as I make my order up. *For example, I
have two roofs with all the goodies to install in the next couple of
weeks.

I called my shingle vendor when bidding them, and found that not only
did we have a price increases in December, February and March, but we
are face with another from the manufacturer in April. *I have dealt
with these guys for literally 15 years, and none of us has ever seen
the kind of profiteering going on right now.

But do they call me and say, "hey Robert, we are not going to carry
the Elk High Point Ridge vent, we are going to another that is more
expensive." *Do they call me when their fuel surcharge goes up? *No.
Does my local paint dealer call me when paint goes up? *No. *Do they
me and every other of their thousand contractors in their list of
clients when they modify or change their delivery charge? *No.

I look at it this way. *It is my money going out on a job. *Period.
It is my responsibility to make sure it is protected; most likely I
won't get anything more than a sigh from my clients when I tell them
prices went up from the time I bid and the signed to the time work
starts. *So I do the best I can, knowing I might take a little in the
shorts. *But the point being, I do my homework up front and try not to
take anything for granted.

I understand your burning and obvious hatred of HD. *I do. *Most of
the time they are of little or no use to me as a contractor. *But they
have a job to do as well, and none of us really know if their
marketing department didn't find in their research that all of these
people in the TV inspired home improvement wave didn't need the 250',
but would be fine with 200'. *I don't know. *I really don't care.

I think repackaging is part of marketing, and no retailer will shy
away from a chance to make more money. *Being a contractor has made me
a better shopper everywhere, as I use the same techniques for personal
purchases that I do for my business. *The first rule of course, is not
to take anything for granted when gathering prices.

In the face of the onslaught of hard competition from the big boxes,
my local hardware stores and lumber yards started playing stink finger
LONG before the big boxes.
I thought that "my boys" down at the local lumberyard would have lower
costs on things because the didn't have the overhead, didn't have to
pay any of the employees health insurance unless they were full time,
and they didn't have an advertising budget. *Wrong.

I even paid more to them when I knew I was paying too much since I
wanted to keep the money local, and I did get a little bit better
service from them. *But when I started paying waaay too much to them,
how could I justify it. *So that they could keep their margins up to
the levels they had when they were the only game in town, they started
selling smaller boxes of nails, off brands of different staple items
like caulk and sealers, and a lot of different off shore stuff began
to sneak into the tool corral.

And if something breaks at HD, you take it back, and you are taken
care of. *If it breaks that local lumberyard, they don't want to RTV
it, so they can make it a little harder. *The manager of the hardware
store used to tell me, "awww come on... it's just Chinese crap and you
knew it when you bought it. *How long did you think it would last?"

Now I am careful and suspicious with all of my purchases. *I ask what
size a product is, I ask what amount is in the package, and I ask for
any price increases that might be in effect soon.

Just a few thoughts. *Like I said, I understand what you are saying,
but there isn't a damn thing we can do about all of this but to be
aware of more and more aggressive marketing to get our dollars. *So
indeed, it is up to all of us to be savvy consumers on point all the
time. *A screwing will happen from time to time no matter what we do.
But if a box is marked in plain view, I don't know other than telling
someone how much wire is in a box (in writing) they purchase what a
retailer can do.

The surprise sure isn't pleasant, though.

Just my 0.02.

Robert

Robert,
There is a lot of info here and I wont try to give my .02 on all of it
making an already long thread longer.

There is a line that a customer once said to me many years ago
(perhaps 10 or more) that I have posted here many times. She was a
great customer, very high end, custom everything, really appreciated
attention to detail (our mantra). We got into a conversation about big
boxes, walmart, etc. regarding their effect on local and global
economies, corporate and consumer mentality, the environment, overall
product quality, and so on. After a long fairly pleasant conversation
in which she agreed with most of the negative aspects of these places,
she said (and I quote) "Look, the bottom line is, I want WHAT I want,
WHEN I want it, at the cheapest price, no matter what the cost". The
cost part is not dollar cost, she meant she didnt care how many rivers
in china flowed mercury laiden, how many of the local businesses went
down, she almost inimated that if, as a side effect of it all, she
would no longer have access to the quality goods she loved, so be it.

I deemed this "the shrinking circle" meaning the average US consumer
doesnt care/act until disaster is imminently breaching thier comfort
circle. This circle use to encapsulate your town, local factories, the
mill in the next town over, your country, etc.. Now the circle is
within the four walls of your home. Until a husband, son, mother,
father, daugher, etc. is directly impacted most dont care. Well, not
surprisingly her husband was a high level excec. at a large company
that eventually was affected by the whole process. We had left the
area by then so I do not know what her position was after all that.

This, to me, relates directly to your comments about HD taking
returns. Its a short sighted positive for the customer due to the
simple fact that all the aforementioned retailers directly force
vendors to reduce quality to gain any price reductions possible. This
would be fine if the retailer held the perspective that because they
specified said quality reductions they (the retailer) are responsible
for customer dissatisfaction. This couldnt be farther from the case.
Coupled with forcing manufacturers to reduce quality to meet price
points, they also force many of them to blanketly accept any and all
returns. This goes to the extreme of Stanley having to take back roof
nailers contractors bought to shoot a roof in a busy patch, then
return when the job's done. Boxes returned to the vendor empty or
filled with junk. On an on. This is why most everything you open now
has a sheet right on top saying "Do not return this to the place of
purchase before calling 1-800-***" The vendors are now in damage
control trying to reduce returned goods. The Freemarketeers out there
will say if the manufacturer doesnt like it dont sell to them.
Statements like that are utterly naieve, uninformed, and reactionary.
The "cost" of this business model is massive on US and international
companies and economies.

When the market share of these places is so high that manufacturers
start reducing quality in their overal product lines because they cant
afford to have a BORG line and a quality line it voids the statements
made in other replies saying "Hey, if you dont like these places dont
shop there". I dont shop there, however, their business model is
directly affecting my operations outside of their business. This
doesnt even take into consieration the work one has to do as a
contractor trying to explain to customers why you dont deal with these
places and wont stand behind any products that come from these places.

To wrap up my "brief" reply (haha) as has be stated location has
everything to do with your suppliers. Our lumberyard sounds markedly
better than yours yet it is not as good as the one we left behind in
MA. They do call and give me heads up when pricing is about to change.
Though I often times think they do this as an attempt to get you to
buy out of fear rather than neccessity. Though our lumberyard is
adding fuel surcharges, trade deliveries are free, and the fuel
surcharges are modest. The service is head and shoulders above what
any BORG could dream of providing, product selection (on the shelf) is
less but its all at the warehouse, product quality is higher for now.
Its a no brainer for me.


Mark

On Mar 19, 7:47 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:

SNIP

To wrap up my "brief" reply (haha) as has be stated location has
everything to do with your suppliers. Our lumberyard sounds markedly
better than yours

I have no doubt.

It may sound strange Mark, but I agree with your point of view on
almost everything you posted. And I have the things you post about HD
to be true as well.

Reading your post, I think I see where we differ on our points of
view. The really big fight started here when Builder's Square opened
up in the early 80s or so here. As my hometown was the site of their
corporate office, they were everywhere. I mean all over the place.
And while there were other big boxes other cities, this was the first
one here.

They absolutely scared the hell out of every retailer/vendor/supplier
in the construction business as they supplied goods to all of South
Texas.

To simplify and make a long story short, our local lumber guys
panicked and raced to find products that would be price competitive.
I didn't go to BS at the time as I couldn't wrap my brain around
buying wood off a rack in a warehouse store that was stored next to
wallpaper. All of us "pros" got a good laugh at some of the things we
heard. Our local yards were pretty good, and we weren't changing as
we all "had a guy" at the local yards we liked, and that was that.
Besides, my favorite yard had a giant coffee urn that was always full
on cold mornings.

But as our local yard owners were finding it harder and harder to
maintain their hunting leases, their duck hunting leases, their
basketball season tickets (or box!), new custom trucks every other
years, their second home at the coast and their getaway home in the
hill country, and to keep on employing their family members, they had
decisions to make.

When they had the whole market, it was actually better. Materials
cost a lot more, but they stood behind their product. Their service
came at a premium, but I figured that in the end it would save me
money on the job to have materials delivered on time and in good
condition. But they got worried about that bottom line and decided to
make some changes to bring their profit margins back in to line with
the old days of non competition.

So they cut back staff which hurt their service. They cut back
quality of items that cost more than at BS to maintain their market
share. So now we have less service and lower quality goods.

In my talks with the owner of the stores, I remember telling him,
"look, I can get crappy service and poor products anywhere. Why would
I spend money with
your when I have to pay more to get it?"

I was ready, willing, and able to pay more to get what I wanted, but
no willing to pay more to get less. As the battle raged on between BS
and our local lumberyards, Home Depot moved in, and it got better.
One would think that with all that competition things would get
better, but as cuts continued, things got worse. And to compound it
all, there were just not enough people with any product knowledge to
even man a department in those big boxes, much less wait on
customers. So they offered some of the old hands in the local yards
good pay, flexible hours, and even health insurance.

Now everything in Robert's world is starting to collapse.
Everywhere I went I got bad service, crappy products, and not a soul
anywhere with product knowledge. I remember having a conversation
with a young man at the lumber desk and receiving his careful
explanation that an 8' 2X4 is 8 bf, and a 14' 2X4 is 14 bf, and on and
on at my local yard (previously my favorite)..

As things went on, things got worse. BS was ****ed off they couldn't
even be #1 in their own home town, much less anywhere else. HD
relished that, and we literally got deals on things like compressor/
nailer packages that were nowhere else except in this market from
them. They were killing each other for the market. Then, along came
Lowe's..

The upshot is that ALL of them taught me the same lessons about 20
years ago.

- Don't trust any of them at all
- Don't rely on them to take care of your business interests
- Don't rely on them to keep their word. Pound them hard to make them
keep it
- Always check pricing by brand, quality line, and quantity
- Always ask, "are there any more charges on this?"
- If you forget any of the above, you will regret it

I applaud all of those that can sing the praises of fine relationships
with multiple vendors. I remember those days in the distant past. I
remember picking up the phone and ordering a few squares of shingles,
a half a lift of 2X4s, 20 gallons of paint, etc., and it would be
delivered as promised. In those days, while I was aware of market
pricing, I NEVER shopped. What I really wanted was the service.

I guess where all that has taken me is to a very cynical place. I
don't trust any of these guys on any level. It makes it much harder
to do business, but actually don't have any options.

Ahhhh..... for the good old days. I still remember when we thought
Builder's Square etc., would go out of business. Not be the last man
standing.

Robert

On Mar 17, 10:09*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"BDBConstruction" wrote:
Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all
our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

When is the last time you checked a can of coffee?

Last I looked, a 16 oz can now has 13 oz in it.

Paper products, especially toilet paper, is another.

The toilet paper sunsabitches have increased the size of the inner
cardboard roll and manage to blow more air into the paper as well. 30
rolls!!! Of what? Air?

"Robatoy" wrote

The toilet paper sunsabitches have increased the size of the inner
cardboard roll and manage to blow more air into the paper as well. 30
rolls!!! Of what? Air?

Just noticed that with paper towels: "30% more sheets" means 30% smaller
sheets.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I just noticed that a 24 roll pack is now 20 rolls and at the same price.

On the outside of an older package: "6 mega rolls = 24 regular rolls". - or
1 to 4
These "mega" rolls are 400 sheets. Since when was a regular roll 100
sheets?

They are dirtbags. Evil and corrupt. They are worse than what the stuff
wipes off.

On Mar 18, 11:27*am, "none of the above"
wrote:
I just noticed that a 24 roll pack is now 20 rolls and at the same price.

On the outside of an older package: "6 mega rolls = 24 regular rolls". *- or
1 to 4
These "mega" rolls are 400 sheets. *Since when was a regular roll 100
sheets?

They are dirtbags. *Evil and corrupt. *They are worse than what the stuff
wipes off.

Yea... and wtf happened to 'no tax' on 'things we need'? Like no tax
on food, kids' shoes, etc.? They don't think things like TP, menstrual
pads and bars of soap and tooth paste are 'things we need'?

Instead, they tax things we DO need.. like gasoline and scotch!

BDBConstruction wrote:

Yet we still question,


Not me!

Thanks for sharing that.

On Mar 18, 5:38 am, B A R R Y wrote:
BDBConstruction wrote:

Yet we still question,

Not me!

Thanks for sharing that.

Sigh...

Me neither.

Robert

On Mar 17, 7:33 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.


All over the United States, ppl scream bloody hell when a new big box
is built in their neighborhood - WalMart is particularly reviled. The
market is good at determining success. Rarely do these types of stores
go out of business ... yet. - I remember when malls were the Next Big
Thing. If you don't like 'em, don't shop 'em. Personally, I find their
quality mostly lacking. Has anybody ever been satisfied with Behr
paint? Yet for some items, I don't care. I got a power mower from Home
Despot. We live on a small city lot and price drove that purchase, not
quality. It takes twenty minutes to mow the lawn. How good does it
need to be?

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote:

I got a power mower from Home
Despot. We live on a small city lot and price drove that purchase, not
quality. It takes twenty minutes to mow the lawn. How good does it
need to be?


Whatever happened to a hand mower?

Mowed an 80 x 150 yard with a hand mower for years.

By today's view, it would be considered "green" friendly, back then it was
just exercise.

Lew

On Mar 18, 11:58 am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Jeff" wrote:
I got a power mower from Home
Despot. We live on a small city lot and price drove that purchase, not
quality. It takes twenty minutes to mow the lawn. How good does it
need to be?

Whatever happened to a hand mower?

Mowed an 80 x 150 yard with a hand mower for years.

By today's view, it would be considered "green" friendly, back then it was
just exercise.

We were lucky enough to buy a corner lot. While I could certainly mow
it with a push mower, I'd rather spend the additional time cutting
black walnut on my table saw.... (You didn't think I'd get back on
topic, did you?)

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote:

We were lucky enough to buy a corner lot. While I could certainly mow
it with a push mower, I'd rather spend the additional time cutting
black walnut on my table saw.... (You didn't think I'd get back on
topic, did you?)

How much wood do you get cut with the 10 minutes you saved?G

Lew

On Mar 17, 7:33 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:
... Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. ..

The last time I bought coffee there were about twenty brands
of pre-ground coffee in cans on the shelf. Not one of them
was a one pound can, o reven an whole number of pounds
like 2 or 3, excepting only a chickory-coffee blend.

Check out the labels on vitamins sometime. Some brands
sell 500 mg tablets in a bottle labeled 1000 mg, and in the
fine print they say to take two. IMHO, that's outright fraud.

--

FF

On Mar 17, 7:33*pm, BDBConstruction wrote:
As most of you are well aware I am an anti-borg to say the least. Well
here is the latest I found out today. Local lumberyard tells me that
they are getting a lot of people saying they are out of line with
regard to pricing on 250' boxes of 12-2 romex. Salesman calls a fellow
salesman at the borg and says "wtf is up with this"? *Borg salesman
replies, "ahhh, hehe, you don't realize that corporate changed all our
wire to 200' boxes instead of 250' ". The new packaging minimally
mentions the footage in the box as opposed to the old packaging.

This of course goes along with Kellogs putting a couple ounces less
ceral in the same box for the same price, Lays and other chip makers
doing the same for chips, and so on. These minimal reductions (not to
say that 50' of wire is minimal) of course add up to millions of
dollars across the nation. Whats odd is why there would not be a
notice posted in the wire isle telling the guy who figured a job for
750' of wire that he now needs 4 boxes instead of the three he has
bought for the last 35 years.

Yet we still question,
Mark

So I was out all day today after material and went in the direction of
the wire so did a little checking. I additionally talked with the VP
of our elect. supply and got some info.

So they are infact selling 200'ers though at this point it is only at
a couple locations. The price is competetive with my local lumberyard
(they backdoor electrical products anyway) but higher than what I pay
from the elect. supply. Of course the most general complaint in the
biz is that they are doing this in an attempt to simply doop people
with a lower price in the isle. The 200's are not out on a pallet with
any signag, they are in the pallet rack where 250's would be. Of
course the drone had no idea why they had 200's vs. 250's other than
"thats what came in".

Now, in their defense, the VP at the elect. supply gave me some info
that this has happened in the past but with HD instead of Lowes. He
said it was an utter disaster and they wound up stuck with a lot of
wire waiting for it to sell retail as no one in the trade wanted it.
He said that no one ever got a clear answer as to wether it was an
attempt at trickery or perhaps they got a deal on a bunch of odd cuts
or something though it was pretty much agreed that with them all being
packaged 200's it just didnt seem like it was a batch of odd lots.

I was not under any dillusion that there would be some clear answer it
is/was just another indicator (for me) that these guys have no
interest in playing by the rules, customer service, serving the
industry, and so on. One plus around here at least is that the big
boxes have pretty much given up persuing contractors. Many of them
have dropped all their outside sales taking on the mentality that why
should they pay to get business when contractors should just come to
them. Their margins are higher on retail, though that business has
slowed drastically for them here.

Time will tell...
Mark

"BDBConstruction" wrote:

So I was out all day today after material and went in the direction of
the wire so did a little checking. I additionally talked with the VP
of our elect. supply and got some info.

As the CB lingo goes, "What's your 20?"

Lew