On Mar 7, 8:45*am, Charlie Self wrote:
On Mar 6, 1:09 pm, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

Charlie Self wrote:
Do you want a $7 pack of USA shims or a $3 pack of China-made shims?
Currently, China's economy is soaring--but how long will that last?

It will last until they reach something close to a level with us, just
as happened in Japan and Taiwan. But by the time that happens in China
(it's also happening in India), the world will be devoid of resources.

The Chinese economy is soaring. The Chinese standard of living is not. The
Politburo is sitting on a time bomb.

I think the Chinese government is pushing chain smoking. The Russians
used vodka.

The Americanadians used both...for taxes and to reduce the expense of
old age care.

Charlie Self wrote:
....
Aye. Just in time. And that's why we're drowning in tractor-trailer
rigs, and far too many of the Interstates are terrifying to drive on
for a four wheeler. There is ALWAYS a cost: we're paying it in road
construction taxes that primarily benefit trucking companies, and
we're paying it in traffic fatalities because of the extra trucks on
the road. Road construction always lags need, so we're always in a
state of spending to help out companies.

And the trucking companies benefit the manufacturer and retailer and the
retailer benefits the consumer/end user. All is a whole.

--

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 07:15:30 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Bob Martin" wrote
in 1399194 20080306 045035 Airedale wrote:

I just am sadend by it all I guess. Using foreign made (from a not so
friendly country) products to build stuff just bothers me. We have
really no choices though any more.

I'm surprised that you are surprised. The world is now a global market
and
everyone buys from the lowest cost producer. The rich western countries
have
almost given up on manufacturing and make their money from services.

While I agree with you, and understand the ecocomics, I'm just hoping
against hope that I'm such a dumb **** that I simply can't grasp how it is
NOT the end of our heretofore vital middle class.


Grad school Economics professor said two things 35 or so years ago
that I remember. The first is that Soviet communisim will fall
without a shot being fired because of the inability of capital to flow
properly in a planned economy. He was right. Certainly there were
shots fired, but they had nothing to do with the ultimate failure
which was an economic failure

Secondly, he said that the only way to have consistent and real
increases in GDP was to base your economy on adding value to things
that are mined or grown. Once you move away from that, you can hide
for a while with service, but it is a zero sum game and eventually
there will be a lowering of standard of living, devaluation of
currency and many things bad. I'm beginning to think he was right
again. Looks like stagflation with little that can be done about it
because we are no longer in the value adding drivers seat.

I can't remember a time in the history of this country when falling US
demand did not also have a corresponding fall in commodity prices,
getting things back in balance. But here we are, with all energy and
basic materials going through the roof with US demand falling daily.

In my little world we have been insulated from the big picture by a
Toyota Assembly plant being built about twenty miles away with
supplier plants popping up all over the region. But the big picture
looks fairly bleak to me.

Frank
This is the same problem that England faced in the late 50s and early 60s.
Manufacturing was collapsing and moving to North America. One example was
their auto industry. They had several auto manufacturers, Rolls Royce, Land
Rover, British Ford, British GM, and Standard Auto who made several brands,
along with the specialty auto companies. Now they are virtually all gone,
closed or sold to someone else. Times were rough in the 70s and 80s, now
they are starting to pick up again now that the economy has adapted. Whether
the US market can adapt is yet to be seen.

Lobby Dosser wrote:

The Chinese economy is soaring. The Chinese standard of living is not. The
Politburo is sitting on a time bomb.

Actually, the Chinese standard of living IS soaring. Just not uniformly. I was
walking a street in Shanghai that looked just like Rodeo Drive in LA. The same
high end brands: Prada, Cartier, Rolex, etc. The same expensive and stylishly
dressed people.

Streets that used to be jammed with bicycles are now jammed with cars. This is
mostly in the regions along the south and east coasts. Somewhere around 200
million people have moved from farms to manufacturing jobs. Four dollars a day
is a big step up for them. (Those aren't the ones buying Prada, it's their
bosses.)

You go into the country and you see peasants living just as they did 3000 years
ago, except they all seem to have cell phones.

One other factoid that gets lost is that even China is losing manufacturing
jobs. Increasing automation and even lower cost labor (e.g. Viet Nam) is doing
to them what they did to us.

-- Doug

Robatoy wrote:
On Mar 7, 9:08 am, "NuWave Dave" wrote:
"Chris Friesen" wrote in message

...

Didn't they also come under fire for fishing in illegal areas and
exceeding their quota though?
And harpooning a few whales, no doubt.
-
Dave in Houston

When all the whales are gone, we won't have to worry about that
anymore.

(bumper sticker)
Save The Whales. Collect The Entire Set
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Charlie Self wrote:

On Mar 6, 2:22 pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 6, 2:14 pm, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:
Lobby Dosser wrote:

The Chinese economy is soaring. The Chinese standard of living
is not. The Politburo is sitting on a time bomb.

While China's economy may be "soaring" by Chinese standards,
their GDP is still only 3/4 that of Japan (and about 1/5 that of
the US), to spread among more than ten times the population, so
Politburo or no Politburo there's not all that much to go around.

And the population is now exposed to higher standards of living.

And to the toxins in the waste we send over there to be recycled.


They're getting even with lead paint on toys and other contaminants in
drugs and other products. What is it, heparin, with Chinese base
materials, has killed a number of people.



Dog and cat food here. Plus tooth paste and drug base in Panama. It's not
just us they're getting even with. )

Douglas Johnson wrote:


Lobby Dosser wrote:

The Chinese economy is soaring. The Chinese standard of living is not.
The Politburo is sitting on a time bomb.

Actually, the Chinese standard of living IS soaring. Just not
uniformly.

Yeah, I should have qualified that. Their CEOs also buy private jets.

Robatoy wrote:

On Mar 7, 12:47*am, Chris Friesen wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
Some of those realities have already come and gone. The Japanese,
for instance, were able to come across the Pacific, catch fish off
Canadian shores, clean/process/can them on the way back to Japan,
stick the cans in containers and ship them to Canada for less money
than we could it ourselves. They did that for a long time. That
kind of competition is real and fair.

Didn't they also come under fire for fishing in illegal areas and
exceeding their quota though?

Chris

That was more a Spain/Portugal problem on the Atlantic Coast.
But yes, the quota thing has been whored by fishermen from all over...
including Canadians.


And the Herring War between the UK and Iceland.

On Mar 7, 7:02*pm, Lobby Dosser
wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:47*am, Chris Friesen wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
Some of those realities have already come and gone. The Japanese,
for instance, were able to come across the Pacific, catch fish off
Canadian shores, clean/process/can them on the way back to Japan,
stick the cans in containers and ship them to Canada for less money
than we could it ourselves. They did that for a long time. That
kind of competition is real and fair.

Didn't they also come under fire for fishing in illegal areas and
exceeding their quota though?

Chris

That was more a Spain/Portugal problem on the Atlantic Coast.
But yes, the quota thing has been whored by fishermen from all over...
including Canadians.

And the Herring War between the UK and Iceland. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm herrrring... little green ones... right out of the North
Sea...

Lobby Dosser wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:


Lobby Dosser wrote:

The Chinese economy is soaring. The Chinese standard of living is not.
The Politburo is sitting on a time bomb.

Actually, the Chinese standard of living IS soaring. Just not
uniformly.

Yeah, I should have qualified that. Their CEOs also buy private jets.

Indeed they do. But unless there are a hell of a lot of CEO's, somebody else is
buying all those cars and condos. Even the four-buck-a-day factory worker is
living better than their wildest dreams.

Twenty years ago, essentially everyone in the country was a slave. They lived
where they told, did the work they were told, and were paid essentially nothing.

China's government has some world class problems (broken banking system, totally
inadequate infrastructure, pollution, among others), but the people are hugely
better off than they were.

-- Doug

-- Doug

"Douglas Johnson" wrote

China's government has some world class problems (broken banking system,
totally
inadequate infrastructure, pollution, among others), but the people are
hugely
better off than they were.

Let's hope they are farsighted enough to give credit where credit is
ultimately due ... to the capitalistic societies of the West.

But probably not ... to the ultimate detriment of both.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote:


Let's hope they are farsighted enough to give credit where credit is
ultimately due ... to the capitalistic societies of the West.

When the Brits returned Hong Kong to China in the 90's, China swore they were
not going change it, that they wanted a capitalist example. My thought was
"Yeah, right.". But they didn't change it. Capitalism spread across the border
into Guangdong province and up the coast from there.

The young folks (teens and 20's) in China love American pop culture -- fast
food, Hollywood, TV, and music. Actually, it is kind of embarrassing. I think
America exports some of the worst of our culture.

The ultimate luxury car is a Buick. Forget that German or Japanese iron.

English is a required subject in the schools. It is hard to walk down the
street without a kid running up to say "Hello" or "What time is it?" just to try
out their English.

How much mileage this will get us in the long term is another question.

-- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

English is a required subject in the schools. It is hard to walk down
the street without a kid running up to say "Hello" or "What time is
it?" just to try out their English.

How much mileage this will get us in the long term is another
question.


Better, more readable manuals!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Douglas Johnson wrote:

"Swingman" wrote:


Let's hope they are farsighted enough to give credit where credit is
ultimately due ... to the capitalistic societies of the West.

When the Brits returned Hong Kong to China in the 90's, China swore they
were
not going change it, that they wanted a capitalist example. My thought
was
"Yeah, right.". But they didn't change it. Capitalism spread across the
border into Guangdong province and up the coast from there.

The young folks (teens and 20's) in China love American pop culture --
fast
food, Hollywood, TV, and music. Actually, it is kind of embarrassing. I
think America exports some of the worst of our culture.

The ultimate luxury car is a Buick. Forget that German or Japanese iron.

English is a required subject in the schools. It is hard to walk down the
street without a kid running up to say "Hello" or "What time is it?" just
to try out their English.

How much mileage this will get us in the long term is another question.


Certainly worked very well with the Former Soviet Union (emphasis on
former). The infiltration of western culture (some of it more appropriately
hypothetical "culture") helped further the fall of the totalitarian state.
At their heart, almost all people have the need for freedom; governments
like the Soviet State and the Chinese Communists can only hold the lid on
so long before things blow up. China, like the Soviet Union before it, is
now experimenting with "controlled capitalism" and "limited freedom" in an
attempt to maintain strong central control by the ruling class. I'm sure
their ruling class is trying to apply "lesssons learned" from watching the
fall of the FSU, thinking that by applying a little more force here or
there they can maintain the high degree of control they now enjoy. A little
freedom is like being a little pregnant and no freedom, such as they had
before while seeing what others have is not cannot be maintained
indefinitely. North Korea is a prime example of the latter case; they are
either going to kill all of their people or are going to have to undergo a
revolution.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Han" wrote

Douglas Johnson wrote i

English is a required subject in the schools. It is hard to walk down
the street without a kid running up to say "Hello" or "What time is
it?" just to try out their English.

How much mileage this will get us in the long term is another
question.


Better, more readable manuals!!

LOL. It could be worse ... and was. How soon we forget the early Japanese
efforts in teaching us how to assemble their products!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Han" wrote:

Better, more readable manuals!!

SFWIW, I used to tell the people who wrote the tech manuals to take the
stuff home and ask their spouse to read it.

If they didn't understand it, it was back to the rewrite desk time.

Lew

Mark & Juanita wrote:
Douglas Johnson wrote:

"Swingman" wrote:


Let's hope they are farsighted enough to give credit where credit is
ultimately due ... to the capitalistic societies of the West.
When the Brits returned Hong Kong to China in the 90's, China swore they
were
not going change it, that they wanted a capitalist example. My thought
was
"Yeah, right.". But they didn't change it. Capitalism spread across the
border into Guangdong province and up the coast from there.

The young folks (teens and 20's) in China love American pop culture --
fast
food, Hollywood, TV, and music. Actually, it is kind of embarrassing. I
think America exports some of the worst of our culture.

The ultimate luxury car is a Buick. Forget that German or Japanese iron.

English is a required subject in the schools. It is hard to walk down the
street without a kid running up to say "Hello" or "What time is it?" just
to try out their English.

How much mileage this will get us in the long term is another question.


Certainly worked very well with the Former Soviet Union (emphasis on
former). The infiltration of western culture (some of it more appropriately
hypothetical "culture") helped further the fall of the totalitarian state.
At their heart, almost all people have the need for freedom; governments
like the Soviet State and the Chinese Communists can only hold the lid on
so long before things blow up. China, like the Soviet Union before it, is
now experimenting with "controlled capitalism" and "limited freedom" in an
attempt to maintain strong central control by the ruling class. I'm sure
their ruling class is trying to apply "lesssons learned" from watching the
fall of the FSU, thinking that by applying a little more force here or
there they can maintain the high degree of control they now enjoy. A little
freedom is like being a little pregnant and no freedom, such as they had
before while seeing what others have is not cannot be maintained
indefinitely. North Korea is a prime example of the latter case; they are
either going to kill all of their people or are going to have to undergo a
revolution.


Meanwhile, back in the USA, we have people who think capitalism is dead
or dying, and trying to push us into a socialist state. Go figure.
---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ----
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"Swingman" wrote:


LOL. It could be worse ... and was. How soon we forget the early Japanese
efforts in teaching us how to assemble their products!

"First you must have peace of mind."

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


English is taught in schools in many countries. I've even heard people in
Quebec speak it

I have, too. But not until I told them I was from the states. They forgive the
poor, ignorant Yanks for being mono-lingual. -- Doug

"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
news
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


English is taught in schools in many countries. I've even heard people in
Quebec speak it

I have, too. But not until I told them I was from the states. They
forgive the
poor, ignorant Yanks for being mono-lingual. -- Doug

The US schools do a poor job on language. You may get a year of Spanish
or French but it is a far cry from every day conversational use when all is
done. My own language skills are lacking, but I do learn at least a few
words of a country that I'm visiting, but hear a lot of English spoken,
especially in tourist areas.

We get a lot of truck drivers from Quebec. Most speak little or no English
or just refuse to. OTOH, I've never had a problem when visiting there.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
news
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


English is taught in schools in many countries. I've even heard people in
Quebec speak it

I have, too. But not until I told them I was from the states. They
forgive the
poor, ignorant Yanks for being mono-lingual. -- Doug


The US schools do a poor job on language. You may get a year of Spanish
or French but it is a far cry from every day conversational use when all is
done. My own language skills are lacking, but I do learn at least a few
words of a country that I'm visiting, but hear a lot of English spoken,
especially in tourist areas.

We get a lot of truck drivers from Quebec. Most speak little or no English
or just refuse to. OTOH, I've never had a problem when visiting there.

Having been raised in Brownsville, TX, I am quite used to people
speaking more than one language. I took 3 years of spanish in
high school which basically gave me the basic structure of the
language but I could not converse unless someone wanted to know
where the library was.

After going to work, I learned in a hurry. I and one other guy
were the only people on the jobsite where english was their first
language. Immersion is the way to go.

I still find it strange that people only speak one language. I
am not absolutely fluent, but I can carry on a lengthy conversation.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:uTKAj.4555$hr3.2676@trnddc04...

Having been raised in Brownsville, TX, I am quite used to people
speaking more than one language. I took 3 years of spanish in high
school which basically gave me the basic structure of the language but
I could not converse unless someone wanted to know where the library
was.

Donde queda la biblioteca ? I even remember the book.
-
Dave in Houston

NuWave Dave wrote:
"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:uTKAj.4555$hr3.2676@trnddc04...

Having been raised in Brownsville, TX, I am quite used to people
speaking more than one language. I took 3 years of spanish in high
school which basically gave me the basic structure of the language but
I could not converse unless someone wanted to know where the library
was.

Donde queda la biblioteca ? I even remember the book.
-
Dave in Houston


I went out of my way to learn how to say "I have a blue pencil" in
several languages. I am now working on "a polyglot is a multi-sided
glot". Tough.
mahalo,
jo4hn

jo4hn wrote in
:

I went out of my way to learn how to say "I have a blue pencil" in
several languages. I am now working on "a polyglot is a multi-sided
glot". Tough.


Een plyglot is een veelzijdige glot.

But you have to be able to pronounce a Dutch (or Hebrew) hard g.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid