Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:05:07 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:

Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.

If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more adventures
in kickback and binding.

Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim*Behning) doth posteth:
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.
If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more adventures
in kickback and binding.

If you stand out of line of the blade you won't get hit by
kickback. When I was in high school shop class the teacher showed use
what kickback was. He then told us not to do that. And I never hav

I don't see a problem with two fences, if they are parallel to each
other and the blade. I also don't see the need.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

On Feb 2, 8:03 pm, (J T) wrote:
Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim Behning) doth posteth:
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.
If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more adventures
in kickback and binding.

If you stand out of line of the blade you won't get hit by
kickback. When I was in high school shop class the teacher showed use
what kickback was. He then told us not to do that. And I never hav

I don't see a problem with two fences, if they are parallel to each
other and the blade. I also don't see the need.

JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

Here's another idea based on your post.

I have a sled.

Using clamps the board is fixed.

The sled has a stop.

Why not stand on the other side and pull the sled instead of pushing
it?


The 'kickback' would go away from you.


Completely safe?

Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 6:09pm (EST-3) (BoyntonStu) doth
queryeth:
snip Completely safe?

I do not believe I know of 'anything' that is 'completely' safe.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

"J T" wrote in message
...
Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 6:09pm (EST-3) (BoyntonStu) doth
queryeth:
snip Completely safe?

I do not believe I know of 'anything' that is 'completely' safe.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

And if there IS anything that's "completely" safe, I suspect that it
wouldn't be much fun.

I'll stick to things that have just a hint or two of "unsafe" to
them...let's me know that I'm still alive by getting me to think "If things
go bad, where do I need be that will allow me to TALK about it later?" And
hoping that nothing DOES go bad.

Mike

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:09:42 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:


I have a sled.

Using clamps the board is fixed.

The sled has a stop.

Why not stand on the other side and pull the sled instead of pushing
it?


The 'kickback' would go away from you.


Completely safe?

Unsafe for other reasons, such as the mechanics of reaching long
distances, but safe for other reasons I'll mention below.

The bottom line: You don't understand kickback. The key to safely
and successfully using machine tools is a solid understanding of the
physics involved in each operation and using them to your advantage.
Fear based "safety" workarounds usually have unintended side effects,
at the minimum destroying accuracy or speed of work.

Boards clamped to sleds are not the same as boards trapped between a
fence and the rising back teeth of a saw blade. You need three
conditions for serious kickback:

1. - Rising Teeth
2. - A fence to trap the work against, to provide traction
3. - Enough slop to allow the wood to rotate against the rising teeth,
or a board that pinches shut after being cut.

Ripping a board that's short and wide, or using a miter gauge and rip
fence together (without extra room to the side of the blade) can also
get ugly in a hurry.

You can prevent kickback by eliminating at least one of the conditions
above. For example, a splitter prevents the cut wood from pinching or
being grabbed by the rising teeth. A properly adjusted fence
eliminates the slop. Without traction (as on the clamped sled or the
offcut side of a rip), the possible force of kickback is greatly
reduced.

Here's a decent demo that looks like it's filmed in a school shop:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/

Some teachers will demonstrate the same thing using foam.

On Feb 3, 9:39 am, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
wrote:
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:09:42 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:

I have a sled.

Using clamps the board is fixed.

The sled has a stop.

Why not stand on the other side and pull the sled instead of pushing
it?

The 'kickback' would go away from you.

Completely safe?

Unsafe for other reasons, such as the mechanics of reaching long
distances, but safe for other reasons I'll mention below.

The bottom line: You don't understand kickback. The key to safely
and successfully using machine tools is a solid understanding of the
physics involved in each operation and using them to your advantage.
Fear based "safety" workarounds usually have unintended side effects,
at the minimum destroying accuracy or speed of work.

Boards clamped to sleds are not the same as boards trapped between a
fence and the rising back teeth of a saw blade. You need three
conditions for serious kickback:

1. - Rising Teeth
2. - A fence to trap the work against, to provide traction
3. - Enough slop to allow the wood to rotate against the rising teeth,
or a board that pinches shut after being cut.

Ripping a board that's short and wide, or using a miter gauge and rip
fence together (without extra room to the side of the blade) can also
get ugly in a hurry.

You can prevent kickback by eliminating at least one of the conditions
above. For example, a splitter prevents the cut wood from pinching or
being grabbed by the rising teeth. A properly adjusted fence
eliminates the slop. Without traction (as on the clamped sled or the
offcut side of a rip), the possible force of kickback is greatly
reduced.

Here's a decent demo that looks like it's filmed in a school shop:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/

Some teachers will demonstrate the same thing using foam.

Good video.

Comments:

1 The kickback was away from the fence and it flew in rotation like
a frisbee..

2 If another fence was on the other side of the board, how could it
fly off the table?

3 A hold down near the fence would prevent lift.

4 A slide table push fence would not allow the board held against
it to frisbee rotate.

Conclusion: Sliding tables are inherently safer than bare table saws.
BTW My slide table stops sliding before your hand
can reach the blade.
Use a hold down next to the fence as close to the
lifting blade as possible.
Install a splitter if possible (harder on a slide
table)
A second fence not even touching the board or a
feather board would help.

Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:09:42 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:


I have a sled.

Using clamps the board is fixed.

The sled has a stop.

Why not stand on the other side and pull the sled instead of pushing
it?


The 'kickback' would go away from you.


Completely safe?

Unsafe for other reasons, such as the mechanics of reaching long
distances, but safe for other reasons I'll mention below.

The bottom line: You don't understand kickback. The key to safely
and successfully using machine tools is a solid understanding of the
physics involved in each operation and using them to your advantage.
Fear based "safety" workarounds usually have unintended side effects,
at the minimum destroying accuracy or speed of work.

Boards clamped to sleds are not the same as boards trapped between a
fence and the rising back teeth of a saw blade. You need three
conditions for serious kickback:

1. - Rising Teeth
2. - A fence to trap the work against, to provide traction
3. - Enough slop to allow the wood to rotate against the rising teeth,
or a board that pinches shut after being cut.

Ripping a board that's short and wide, or using a miter gauge and rip
fence together (without extra room to the side of the blade) can also
get ugly in a hurry.

You can prevent kickback by eliminating at least one of the conditions
above. For example, a splitter prevents the cut wood from pinching or
being grabbed by the rising teeth. A properly adjusted fence
eliminates the slop. Without traction (as on the clamped sled or the
offcut side of a rip), the possible force of kickback is greatly
reduced.

Here's a decent demo that looks like it's filmed in a school shop:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/

Some teachers will demonstrate the same thing using foam.

I like that explanation, and there's
another factor to be considered. A
kickback "away from you" is still a
kickback. Wood flies.

To where?

Wall with window?

Priceless antique that's in the shop for
repair?

Your brand new (and priceless) Harbor
Freight router that's just been lovingly
unwrapped and awaiting its first plunge?

Someone else in the shop who came in to
announce supper?(This one may limit your
ability to have children, even tho the
kick back didn't hit YOU)

--
Tanus

This is not really a sig.

http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/

"Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" wrote

You need three
conditions for serious kickback:

1. - Rising Teeth
2. - A fence to trap the work against, to provide traction
3. - Enough slop to allow the wood to rotate against the rising teeth,
or a board that pinches shut after being cut.

Ripping a board that's short and wide, or using a miter gauge and rip
fence together (without extra room to the side of the blade) can also
get ugly in a hurry.

You can prevent kickback by eliminating at least one of the conditions
above. For example, a splitter prevents the cut wood from pinching or
being grabbed by the rising teeth. A properly adjusted fence
eliminates the slop.

Might one supplement this excellent advice with the suggestion that using a
short ripping fence, ie one that guides the wood no further than the gullets
of the teeth, is also a good precaution against kickback.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

On Feb 2, 9:09 pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
On Feb 2, 8:03 pm, (J T) wrote:



Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim Behning) doth posteth:
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.
If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more adventures
in kickback and binding.

If you stand out of line of the blade you won't get hit by
kickback. When I was in high school shop class the teacher showed use
what kickback was. He then told us not to do that. And I never hav

I don't see a problem with two fences, if they are parallel to each
other and the blade. I also don't see the need.

JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

Here's another idea based on your post.

I have a sled.

Using clamps the board is fixed.

The sled has a stop.

Why not stand on the other side and pull the sled instead of pushing
it?

The 'kickback' would go away from you.

Completely safe?

You want to be reaching across the blade?

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:33:55 -0800 (PST), Father Haskell
wrote:


You want to be reaching across the blade?


BINGO!

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:03:30 -0500, (J T)
wrote:

Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim*Behning) doth posteth:
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.
If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more adventures
in kickback and binding.

If you stand out of line of the blade you won't get hit by
kickback. When I was in high school shop class the teacher showed use
what kickback was. He then told us not to do that. And I never hav

I don't see a problem with two fences, if they are parallel to each
other and the blade. I also don't see the need.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

Yes, I do stand to the side.

My high school shop teacher was a room monitor. I do not recall any
teaching but that was over 30 years ago. I do recall the college shop
teacher teaching but I do not recall any lessons besides pull down on
the disconnect handle mounted 14 feet up on the ceiling before
servicing equipment. Oh, he also said no power sanders allowed. I do
not recall a lesson on the use of scrapers. One last lesson from the
college instructor. Two parts. Do not drop tools on the floor. Do not
stick your foot out to prevent a chisel from hitting the floor. Better
the floor and teacher wrath than a trip to the hospital.

Jim Behning wrote:
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:03:30 -0500, (J T)
wrote:

Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm

(Jim Behning) doth posteth:
Have you ever been shot in the belly by a piece of wood that the
saw
kicked back? Huge risk of increased kickback if you try that. You
now
have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely pass by the
saw
blade. With just one fence the waste can lay on the table or fall
off
the table with marginal risk of getting tossed back by the blade.
If your wood is not parallel you have chances for even more
adventures in kickback and binding.

If you stand out of line of the blade you won't get hit by
kickback. When I was in high school shop class the teacher showed
use what kickback was. He then told us not to do that. And I
never
hav

I don't see a problem with two fences, if they are parallel to
each other and the blade. I also don't see the need.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper
Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

Yes, I do stand to the side.

My high school shop teacher was a room monitor. I do not recall any
teaching but that was over 30 years ago. I do recall the college
shop
teacher teaching but I do not recall any lessons besides pull down
on
the disconnect handle mounted 14 feet up on the ceiling before
servicing equipment. Oh, he also said no power sanders allowed. I do
not recall a lesson on the use of scrapers. One last lesson from the
college instructor. Two parts. Do not drop tools on the floor. Do
not
stick your foot out to prevent a chisel from hitting the floor.

Lucky you. At least you knew what "sharp" was like. Wasn't until I
started doing my own sharpening that I found out that you don't try to
catch a chisel with your foot.

Better
the floor and teacher wrath than a trip to the hospital.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Sun, Feb 3, 2008, 11:00am (J.*Clarke) doth
sayeth:
Lucky you. At least you knew what "sharp" was like. snip

It's all relative. I took shop starting in the 4th grade,
mandatory until the 8th grade. I took 4 years of it in high school,
where it was optional. Started using power tools, unsupervised, in th
grade. The wools were demonstrated, and then we were expected to se
them right, and not hurt ourselves. We listened, and no one sufferred
injuries that a bandaid wouldn't fix. Except for the idoot jock that
was horseplaying and shoved an arm thru the shp door window, cutting an
artery - he survived. We learned woodworking, welding, some mechanics,
drafting, forging, sheet metal work, metal lathe and milling machine,
and even a big of electricity, and probably one or two things I don't
recall just now. However, I graduated high school in 1958, age 17. Oh
yes, attended schoo in two different small countryschools, in the same
school distric, in rural southern Michigan. .



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim*Behning) doth sayeth:
snip You now have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely
pass by the saw blade. snip

I've read, and re-read, that, and still can't figure out what
you're tryping to say. You've got ONE piece of wood, with two fences
or one, until the blade passes thru the last of the wood. If you're
using a push block, either way, I see no problem. O a push stick.
Either way, if the board is sufficiently long, it will tip up away from
the blade. Ahhhh, you guys argue about it, I don't really care. If I
felt it would be useful, I would have qualms about using two fences.
But, I don't, so I don't., too many other options to choose from that I
would prefer to use.



JOAT - who does not welcome thread question e-mails..

10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President - Bumper Sticker

I don't have a problem with a woman president - except for Hillary.

On Feb 3, 11:21 pm, (J T) wrote:
Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 2:41pm
(Jim Behning) doth sayeth:
snip You now have two pieces of wood that you are trying to safely
pass by the saw blade. snip

I've read, and re-read, that, and still can't figure out what
you're tryping to say. You've got ONE piece of wood, with two fences
or one, until the blade passes thru the last of the wood.

If there is only one fence then the kerf can open up on
the outfeed side of the blade. With two fences it cannot,
so that greatly increases the chance that it will pinch the
blade as stresses are relieved in the wood being ripped.

With a fence and a half, wherein the half fence ends just
shy of the blade the kerf can open up, but the half
fence will not hold the stock as tightly against the
full fence as would a featherboard.

--

FF

Is this idea worthwhile?

NO!!!!! HORRIBLE IDEA!!!!!!

You're begging for binding, kickback, and all kinda' bad things.

Make a sled with hold-downs.

-Zz


I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

Rockler has a similar set up on its cove making jig. I really don't see the
purpose on that jig but the fences you are talking would have to be
perfectly parallel, "perfectly". If they were not perfectly parallel there
would either be no purpose of the extra fence or the fences would pinch the
stock.

On Feb 2, 4:59 pm, "Leon" wrote:
"BoyntonStu" wrote in message

...

Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

Rockler has a similar set up on its cove making jig. I really don't see the
purpose on that jig but the fences you are talking would have to be
perfectly parallel, "perfectly". If they were not perfectly parallel there
would either be no purpose of the extra fence or the fences would pinch the
stock.


Actually, I have a homemade sled that is almost perfect for my needs.

The homemade fence quickly locks to the sled with a pivot clamp and it
happily sits vertical and it is parallel the blade.

Since I know how easy it was to make, I can make another one fairly
quick.

My sled has a forward stop for safety.

It will always stay parallel to the table and it uses underside slides
to prevent tilt and lift-off when fully extended.

My intention is to employ hold downs and a push handle far from the
blade.

Like a deli slicing machine!

I will forget about the dual fences.

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:59:39 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:



Rockler has a similar set up on its cove making jig. I really don't see the
purpose on that jig but the fences you are talking would have to be
perfectly parallel, "perfectly".

Cove cuts are not through cuts. Cuts that aren't through don't get
the same pressure against the rising teeth.

Think crosscut dadoing with stop blocks. You can use the stops for
dadoing, but the same stop in a full crosscut is an invitation to
disaster.

I've done coves with one and two fences, and prefer two when the angle
is such that the wood wants to walk away from the fence. I can take a
slightly deeper cut with two rails.

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:05:07 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu wrote:

Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

Yeah.. put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye..

You would be almost forcing kick back, IMO..
Feather boards work because the have flex in them and let things move in one
direction..
A fence on each side of the work would let the piece of wood being cut move
either to the back or FRONT of the table..

Also, most folks only use feather boards before the blade... I think a 2nd fence
might close the kerf and cause kickback, but not sure..

All in all, it sounds dangerous..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:05:07 -0800 (PST), BoyntonStu
wrote:

Anyone have an opinion?


If you don't believe all of the other posters who described terrible
kickback, please film the tests.

Trapped wood is never a good idea on a table saw.

Stu,
Like others have mentioned, dual fences would be hazardous when used
for ripping on a table saw but you can run paralle fences when making
cove moldings on the TS. In this instance, the fences are not in line
with the blade and you are not performing a through cut. Also, a hold
down is highly recommended.
Just wanted to mention that there is a variation of a two- or parallel
- fence set up on a table saw.
Marc

DANGER DANGER Will Robinson Kickbacks ahead!!!!

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

On Feb 2, 2:05 pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

you are BEGGING for a kickback. The wood will not travel evenly
between the fences, hang up, hit the blade, rattle around before it
comes out at you. Hene the advice, NEVER us a fence and miter block at
the same time.

make a crosscut sled - you'll be much happier.

shelly

On Feb 4, 7:23 pm, wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:05 pm, BoyntonStu wrote:

Is this idea worthwhile?

I was thinking about featherboards and it occurred to me that if a
table saw had a pair of fences and the table could

hold the stock, there could be no lateral movement and no sideways
force.

Anyone have an opinion?

you are BEGGING for a kickback. The wood will not travel evenly
between the fences, hang up, hit the blade, rattle around before it
comes out at you. Hene the advice, NEVER us a fence and miter block at
the same time.

make a crosscut sled - you'll be much happier.

shelly

The fence(s) are ON the crosscut sled!

BoyntonStu wrote:

The fence(s) are ON the crosscut sled!


You don't need *anything* to prevent kickback on a crosscut sled. It's
not an issue at all.

On Feb 5, 7:11 am, B A R R Y wrote:
BoyntonStu wrote:

The fence(s) are ON the crosscut sled!

You don't need *anything* to prevent kickback on a crosscut sled. It's
not an issue at all.


Please explain why " It's not an issue at all."

BoyntonStu wrote:

Please explain why " It's not an issue at all."


I suggest, as have others, some local hands-on instruction.