In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

Jim

wrote in message
...
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

Jim

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those cables.

10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

wrote:
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

The first number is the wire guage, the second is the number of
conductors in the outer sheathing (not including ground).

As for what you would use, before wiring the shop you should have a good
picture of what types of equipment you'll have and where it will be.
You then simply wire accordingly. My shop has a mixture of #14, #12,
and #10 wiring, depending on purpose.

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

The extra wire is used for a number of things. Among others, for
typical residential wiring it's used in 3-way light switches, mixed
240/120V loads (like a dryer), and in "split-wire" or "multi-wire" 120V
circuits.

For general-purpose circuits #14 can handle 15A, #12 can handle 20A, and
#10 can take 30A.

Chris

wrote:
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?


Either 12/2 or 12/3 will contain a green ground conductor.

The ground is not included in the conductor count.

12/2 would be used for a 240V/1Ph/60Hz service.

OTOH, 12/3 would be used for a 120V-240V/1Ph/60Hz service.

Can't give a good answer about your shop other than to say that if you run 3
conductor circuits, you spend a few bucks, but down the road your fanny is
covered.

BTW, Lew's rule for shop wiring:

#12 AWG for all 1Pole(120V) circuits and #10AWG for all 2Pole(240V)
circuits.

Have fun.

Lew

"Chris Friesen" wrote
For general-purpose circuits #14 can handle 15A, #12 can handle 20A, and
#10 can take 30A.

That is before the 20% derate factor.

When a c'bkr is in a panel, it is derated by 20% to handle the panel heat
generated by adjacent c'bkrs..

Thus #14 can only handle 15*80%=12A on a continuous basis.

There ain't no free lunch.

Lew

Leon wrote:

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those cables.
10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

That's incorrect. The second number is the number of conductors.
Ground isn't counted as a "conductor".

Chris

wrote in message
...
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?


As another person responded, ground is inferred, so 12/2 is
white/black/bare. 12/3 is white/black/red/bare, with the red being the
other hot side for wiring 220.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

BTW, Lew's rule for shop wiring:

#12 AWG for all 1Pole(120V) circuits and #10AWG for all 2Pole(240V)
circuits.

I agree that it makes sense to wire a shop with 20A circuits for
receptacles. Just gives a bit of leeway if you plug in a couple things
onto one circuit.

However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12. How many people have
5HP tools in their home shop? I have one 30A outlet for an electric
heater and a future welder. All the rest of my 240V outlets are 20A.

I do think it's a good idea for critical large items (compressor and
dust collector) get their own circuits. Most of the others (tablesaw,
planer, jointer, bandsaw) could realistically share a circuit or two in
a home shop since usually only one will be in use at any given time.

Chris

"Chris Friesen" wrote:

However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12.

Not really, think full boxes of wire, not cut lengths.

Standardize on one wire size, buy full boxes(spools) of wire and get a
better price.

Even if it cost 15-20% more up front, there will come a day
when.....................

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Even if it cost 15-20% more up front, there will come a day
when.....................

When I was shopping the price difference was a lot more than that, even
by the box/spool. Closer to 50-70%. I couldn't justify it.

Chris

On 8/10/07 6:47 PM, "Chris Friesen" wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

I agree that it makes sense to wire a shop with 20A circuits for
receptacles. Just gives a bit of leeway if you plug in a couple things
onto one circuit.

Start off by looking at the power requirements of the tools that you are
likely to use. With the exception of a dust collector, you probably won't
run any of your tools at the same time.

20A circuits for standard 110v outlets is about right for a shop with
typical hand held power tools.


However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12. How many people have
5HP tools in their home shop? I have one 30A outlet for an electric
heater and a future welder. All the rest of my 240V outlets are 20A.

I do think it's a good idea for critical large items (compressor and
dust collector) get their own circuits. Most of the others (tablesaw,
planer, jointer, bandsaw) could realistically share a circuit or two in
a home shop since usually only one will be in use at any given time.

Some other suggestions:

Put your lights on a separate circuit. It's a pain when you pop a breaker
and the lights go out.

If you have large stationery tools, put in a dedicated circuit for each one.

Put in lots of outlet. One for every three to four feet of wall at a
minimum.

Think about where you might put benches, etc. It helps to have plenty of
outlets nearby, including some above the bench. I put all the outlets in my
shop four feet above the floor.

On 8/10/07 7:55 PM, "Chris Friesen" wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Even if it cost 15-20% more up front, there will come a day
when.....................

When I was shopping the price difference was a lot more than that, even
by the box/spool. Closer to 50-70%. I couldn't justify it.

That's just the wire - right? What was the percentage of the total
materials? And if you pay an electrician to install it, the wire cost is
insignificant.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those
cables.
10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

That's incorrect. The second number is the number of conductors. Ground
isn't counted as a "conductor".

Chris
No, I think that when the say "conductor", they mean insulated conductor.
You can (or could anyway) by 10/2 with no ground.
220 wiring needs two hot conductors, a center conductor (which may or may
not be at ground), and a ground wire.
Jim

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:47:05 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

BTW, Lew's rule for shop wiring:

#12 AWG for all 1Pole(120V) circuits and #10AWG for all 2Pole(240V)
circuits.

I agree that it makes sense to wire a shop with 20A circuits for
receptacles. Just gives a bit of leeway if you plug in a couple things
onto one circuit.

However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12. How many people have
5HP tools in their home shop? I have one 30A outlet for an electric
heater and a future welder. All the rest of my 240V outlets are 20A.

I do think it's a good idea for critical large items (compressor and
dust collector) get their own circuits. Most of the others (tablesaw,
planer, jointer, bandsaw) could realistically share a circuit or two in
a home shop since usually only one will be in use at any given time.

Chris

I know in home shops it is usually a non issue but factor in distance
from the panel when determining wire size. In my opinion I would never
put in less than 12g on 120 and 10g on 240v service. The cost is
minimal and downsizing breakers if critical is ok but never step over
your wire size.
When computing amp load just consider how many or what machines will
be running at the same time on the same circuit.
Never wire a machine without a ground. 240 volt motors only require
two hot legs but always ground as well. 120 volt service requires a
hot leg and a neutral PLUS the ground. Neutral and ground should never
be the same!
With 3 phase service any 240 motor will run fine with one high leg and
one low or two low legs but still ground the machine.
and there you have my $.02 worth.

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:27:42 -0400, Robert Haar
wrote:

On 8/10/07 6:47 PM, "Chris Friesen" wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

I agree that it makes sense to wire a shop with 20A circuits for
receptacles. Just gives a bit of leeway if you plug in a couple things
onto one circuit.

Start off by looking at the power requirements of the tools that you are
likely to use. With the exception of a dust collector, you probably won't
run any of your tools at the same time.

20A circuits for standard 110v outlets is about right for a shop with
typical hand held power tools.


However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12. How many people have
5HP tools in their home shop? I have one 30A outlet for an electric
heater and a future welder. All the rest of my 240V outlets are 20A.

I do think it's a good idea for critical large items (compressor and
dust collector) get their own circuits. Most of the others (tablesaw,
planer, jointer, bandsaw) could realistically share a circuit or two in
a home shop since usually only one will be in use at any given time.

Some other suggestions:

Put your lights on a separate circuit. It's a pain when you pop a breaker
and the lights go out.

If you have large stationery tools, put in a dedicated circuit for each one.

Put in lots of outlet. One for every three to four feet of wall at a
minimum.

Think about where you might put benches, etc. It helps to have plenty of
outlets nearby, including some above the bench. I put all the outlets in my
shop four feet above the floor.

Excellent advice save the bending and box/plug are cheap. I have a
rule of thumb of 5 boxes per circuit. You can never have enough. We
have more than one stationary tool on the same circuit because they
never run at the same time.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those
cables.
10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

That's incorrect. The second number is the number of conductors. Ground
isn't counted as a "conductor".

Chris..

All of the wires in my 10/3 are insulated.

"Chris Friesen" wrote:

When I was shopping the price difference was a lot more than that, even by
the box/spool. Closer to 50-70%. I couldn't justify it.

Somebody screwed up.

Normally there is not that big a difference between #10AWG & #12AWG.

Lew

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:26:04 -0500, "Jim" wrote:

....
220 wiring needs two hot conductors, a center conductor (which may or may
not be at ground), and a ground wire.
....

You only need the "center" (neutral) conductor if you are going to be
taking 110 off the circuit as well as 220. In that case, you need a 4
wire (3 + ground) cable. If the circuit is dedicated to 220v service
only, then the neutral is unnecessary and three wire ( 2 + ground)
cable is sufficient.

Haven't read all the other posts, so don't know if anyone replied to
the OP relative to the gauge. But, if not, then the "10", "12", "14",
etc in the designation is the wire gauge or size. Typical use is 14
gauge for circuits not to exceed 15 amps, 12 gauge for 20 amp
circuits, 10 gauge for 30 amp, etc. Circuit amperage is limited by the
size of the breaker the wire is connected to.

I'm not an electrician and only have nodding acquaintance with NEC
requirements. However, I'd recommend that if you (the OP) is wiring a
shop, use 14 gauge only for dedicated lighting circuits and 12 gauge
for all the 110v branch circuits. Its a little more expensive but its
a one time expense and with the proper receptacles, you've got 20 amps
available at the wall sockets.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:19:22 -0700, wrote:

[electrical question snipped]

You have just been introduced to the hazard of soliciting specialized
advice on the internet. In the gaggle of answers so far, you have
gotten some good information, some incorrectly applied information,
some information given with good intentions but poorly stated, and
some plain incorrect information. You've even had a couple of
responses telling other responders that they are incorrect.

The big problem is, how do you know which is which? Unless you know
the players, you can't. My drivel can look just as authoritative as
anyone else's to someone relatively new to the Wreck. The fact is,
there are about three or four posters here whose electrical
information you can trust. Probably at the top of the list is Doug
Miller. View anyone else's answers with suspicion. I'm surprised he
hasn't posted already. I'm sure he will, however. He can cite the NEC
chapter and verse. Hardly anyone else here can.

By the way, just to throw a monkey wrench in the works for all the
oh-so-sure posters about the number of conductors in a cable--it
wasn't so long ago ( in my lifetime and I can personally attest to
it), that if you wanted a ground wire with your Romex (trade name for
NMC or non metallic cable) you had to say "with ground." It was not
implied. Granted that's no longer the case, but it does illustrate how
gray an answer can sometimes be. Could be important is some old work.

My advice (and you can take this one to the bank) is don't be
satisfied that you have all the information you need based on the
answers you've received so far.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

Jim

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those
cables.

10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.


No, no. X/2 means X conductors *plus* a ground. Two colored insulated
conductors, plus a bare ground conductor. Typically today, it's difficult
to find wire without a ground wrapped in it. In the old days it was easy to
find that and the terminology made accurate sense, but these days ground is
always there. So, the actual wire count in X/2 is three.

X/3 also indicates the number of conductors not counting ground, so there
are three colored conductors, *plus* ground. Useful for such things as
three way switches, etc. Likewise, the actual conductor count in X/3 is
four.

--

-Mike-

"Jim" wrote in message
...

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those
cables.
10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

That's incorrect. The second number is the number of conductors. Ground
isn't counted as a "conductor".

Chris
No, I think that when the say "conductor", they mean insulated conductor.
You can (or could anyway) by 10/2 with no ground.
220 wiring needs two hot conductors, a center conductor (which may or may
not be at ground), and a ground wire.

No. 220 works just fine with two conductors and ground. You only need
neutral if you will be taking 120v loads off of one of the legs.

--

-Mike-

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those
cables.
10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

That's incorrect. The second number is the number of conductors. Ground
isn't counted as a "conductor".

Chris..

All of the wires in my 10/3 are insulated.


It's unusual to find ground insulated in a romex type wire. Are you quite
certain of this Leon?

--

-Mike-

Speaking of useless answers. I went to some trade show years ago. I
got a tote bag that might have said Copper is Proper. I cannot find
the tote bag to see if that was the logo. Two points were made in the
handout and it was geared towards commercial electricians. Well maybe
one point. Copper flows electricity better than aluminum. 12 guage can
be less expensive over the life of a building versus 14 guage due to
lower power losses with the bigger wire. Equipment can run better with
lower voltage drops.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wi...ges-d_419.html
http://www.jlmwholesale.com/images/WIREGAUGE.pdf

Another anecdote which might be worthless. I have a friend who is
certified in a lot of welding techniques. He has worked in power
plants, oil rigs, made non destructive weld samples and seems to have
a good bit of experience. He occasionally uses the small portable mig
welder like I have in the garage. He has found that the little 120
volt welder does better with 10 guage service wire than it does with
12 guage service wire. I don't know how long the wire runs were when
he was doing this experimenting but it reinforces the voltage drop.
His eyes and skill with welds are better than my hack welds.


On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 04:51:37 +0000, LRod
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:19:22 -0700, wrote:

[electrical question snipped]

You have just been introduced to the hazard of soliciting specialized
advice on the internet. In the gaggle of answers so far, you have
gotten some good information, some incorrectly applied information,
some information given with good intentions but poorly stated, and
some plain incorrect information. You've even had a couple of
responses telling other responders that they are incorrect.

The big problem is, how do you know which is which? Unless you know
the players, you can't. My drivel can look just as authoritative as
anyone else's to someone relatively new to the Wreck. The fact is,
there are about three or four posters here whose electrical
information you can trust. Probably at the top of the list is Doug
Miller. View anyone else's answers with suspicion. I'm surprised he
hasn't posted already. I'm sure he will, however. He can cite the NEC
chapter and verse. Hardly anyone else here can.

By the way, just to throw a monkey wrench in the works for all the
oh-so-sure posters about the number of conductors in a cable--it
wasn't so long ago ( in my lifetime and I can personally attest to
it), that if you wanted a ground wire with your Romex (trade name for
NMC or non metallic cable) you had to say "with ground." It was not
implied. Granted that's no longer the case, but it does illustrate how
gray an answer can sometimes be. Could be important is some old work.

My advice (and you can take this one to the bank) is don't be
satisfied that you have all the information you need based on the
answers you've received so far.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...




It's unusual to find ground insulated in a romex type wire. Are you quite
certain of this Leon?


Quite sure however this is not Romex, it is a some what flexible extension
cord that I have made up. I did not picture Romex when answering the
question. Doh!

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...


No, no. X/2 means X conductors *plus* a ground. Two colored insulated
conductors, plus a bare ground conductor. Typically today, it's difficult
to find wire without a ground wrapped in it. In the old days it was easy
to find that and the terminology made accurate sense, but these days
ground is always there. So, the actual wire count in X/2 is three.

X/3 also indicates the number of conductors not counting ground, so there
are three colored conductors, *plus* ground. Useful for such things as
three way switches, etc. Likewise, the actual conductor count in X/3 is
four.



YES! My head was not in the right place, he did say wiring the shop. I
was thinking an extension cord, not Romex. My extension cord is a 10/3 with
3 insulated wires.

Mentioned are 15 and 20 amp 110 circuits.

Is there any reason to have 15 amp circuits?

Wire everything with 20 amp outlets and be done with it.

Jim


On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:27:42 -0400, Robert Haar
wrote:

On 8/10/07 6:47 PM, "Chris Friesen" wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

I agree that it makes sense to wire a shop with 20A circuits for
receptacles. Just gives a bit of leeway if you plug in a couple things
onto one circuit.

Start off by looking at the power requirements of the tools that you are
likely to use. With the exception of a dust collector, you probably won't
run any of your tools at the same time.

20A circuits for standard 110v outlets is about right for a shop with
typical hand held power tools.


However, I think that wiring all the 240V circuits with #10 is overkill
given that it costs significantly more than #12. How many people have
5HP tools in their home shop? I have one 30A outlet for an electric
heater and a future welder. All the rest of my 240V outlets are 20A.

I do think it's a good idea for critical large items (compressor and
dust collector) get their own circuits. Most of the others (tablesaw,
planer, jointer, bandsaw) could realistically share a circuit or two in
a home shop since usually only one will be in use at any given time.

Some other suggestions:

Put your lights on a separate circuit. It's a pain when you pop a breaker
and the lights go out.

If you have large stationery tools, put in a dedicated circuit for each one.

Put in lots of outlet. One for every three to four feet of wall at a
minimum.

Think about where you might put benches, etc. It helps to have plenty of
outlets nearby, including some above the bench. I put all the outlets in my
shop four feet above the floor.

On 8/11/07 1:34 PM, " wrote:

Mentioned are 15 and 20 amp 110 circuits.

Is there any reason to have 15 amp circuits?

Wire everything with 20 amp outlets and be done with it.


I put all my outlets on 20 Amp breakers with 12g. Wiring, but I used 15 Amp
circuits for the lighting.

wrote:
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

Jim

Rules of thumb. #14 wire takes a 15 amp breaker
#12 wire takes a 20 amp breaker
Ordinary 120 Volt wall sockets are rated for 15 or 20 amps and will
accept #14 or #12 wire. I suppose it's possible to jam #10 wire under
the screws but I wouldn't do it myself. Based on this, I wire my branch
circuits with #12.

Connect black to brass, white to chrome.

Treat both sides of the AC line (black and white) as hot. Some other
electrician may have forgotten about black to brass and white to chrome
somewhere else in the building wiring.

Ground every piece of metal you can touch.

David Starr

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:41:38 GMT, Jim Behning
wrote:

|Speaking of useless answers. I went to some trade show years ago. I
|got a tote bag that might have said Copper is Proper. I cannot find
|the tote bag to see if that was the logo. Two points were made in the
|handout and it was geared towards commercial electricians. Well maybe
|one point. Copper flows electricity better than aluminum. 12 guage can
|be less expensive over the life of a building versus 14 guage due to
|lower power losses with the bigger wire. Equipment can run better with
|lower voltage drops.
|http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wi...ges-d_419.html
|http://www.jlmwholesale.com/images/WIREGAUGE.pdf
|
|Another anecdote which might be worthless. I have a friend who is
|certified in a lot of welding techniques. He has worked in power
|plants, oil rigs, made non destructive weld samples and seems to have
|a good bit of experience. He occasionally uses the small portable mig
|welder like I have in the garage. He has found that the little 120
|volt welder does better with 10 guage service wire than it does with
|12 guage service wire. I don't know how long the wire runs were when
|he was doing this experimenting but it reinforces the voltage drop.
|His eyes and skill with welds are better than my hack welds.


First of all, it's "gauge."

You don't need wire tables if you can remember that the resistance of
a round copper conductor is given by:

DC resistance ( Ohm/1000' at 20 C.) = 10 ^ (0.1 * AWG - 1)

where AWG is American Wire Gauge.

The resistivity of aluminum is approx 1.52 times copper.

So for a 20A run using 12 AWG, 100' long (200' of wire) the copper
loss is ~45 W.

For the same run in aluminum the loss is ~69 W.

The difference in efficiency (power delivered to load / power into
wire) is 98.1% vs. 97.1%.

Is this somthing to get excited about?

On Aug 11, 12:51 am, LRod wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:19:22 -0700, wrote:

[electrical question snipped]

You have just been introduced to the hazard of soliciting specialized
advice on the internet.

I'll take that one step further. If a guy has to ask the difference
between 10/2, 10/3. 12/2 etc... WTF is he doing wiring his shop?

For chrissakes, call somebody who knows and who has the certification
and insurance!!

And GET A FARKING PERMIT!!

(Yes, yes, I know, I know... there are many here who have the
knowledge and confidence to do that kind of work themselves, but when
questions indicate a complete and total ignorance of the topic at
hand.........)

r

You have always heard there are no stupid questions. Maybe the
questions were asked for reference. To see what others had done when
there shop was wired. I think it was a legitimate question asking the
difference between the wires. If he is to have someone wire the shop
are all electricians going to wire with 12/2 on 220 and 10/2 on 110?
Knowledge is a good thing and being able to tell the electrician what
you want can only make the shop that much better.

John



On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:09:53 -0700, Robatoy
wrote:

On Aug 11, 12:51 am, LRod wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:19:22 -0700, wrote:

[electrical question snipped]

You have just been introduced to the hazard of soliciting specialized
advice on the internet.

I'll take that one step further. If a guy has to ask the difference
between 10/2, 10/3. 12/2 etc... WTF is he doing wiring his shop?

For chrissakes, call somebody who knows and who has the certification
and insurance!!

And GET A FARKING PERMIT!!

(Yes, yes, I know, I know... there are many here who have the
knowledge and confidence to do that kind of work themselves, but when
questions indicate a complete and total ignorance of the topic at
hand.........)

r

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:42:10 +0000, Wes Stewart *n7ws*@ yahoo.com
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:41:38 GMT, Jim Behning
wrote:

|Speaking of useless answers. I went to some trade show years ago. I
|got a tote bag that might have said Copper is Proper. I cannot find
|the tote bag to see if that was the logo. Two points were made in the
|handout and it was geared towards commercial electricians. Well maybe
|one point. Copper flows electricity better than aluminum. 12 guage can
|be less expensive over the life of a building versus 14 guage due to
|lower power losses with the bigger wire. Equipment can run better with
|lower voltage drops.
|http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wi...ges-d_419.html
|http://www.jlmwholesale.com/images/WIREGAUGE.pdf
|
|Another anecdote which might be worthless. I have a friend who is
|certified in a lot of welding techniques. He has worked in power
|plants, oil rigs, made non destructive weld samples and seems to have
|a good bit of experience. He occasionally uses the small portable mig
|welder like I have in the garage. He has found that the little 120
|volt welder does better with 10 guage service wire than it does with
|12 guage service wire. I don't know how long the wire runs were when
|he was doing this experimenting but it reinforces the voltage drop.
|His eyes and skill with welds are better than my hack welds.


First of all, it's "gauge."

You don't need wire tables if you can remember that the resistance of
a round copper conductor is given by:

DC resistance ( Ohm/1000' at 20 C.) = 10 ^ (0.1 * AWG - 1)

where AWG is American Wire Gauge.

The resistivity of aluminum is approx 1.52 times copper.

So for a 20A run using 12 AWG, 100' long (200' of wire) the copper
loss is ~45 W.

For the same run in aluminum the loss is ~69 W.

The difference in efficiency (power delivered to load / power into
wire) is 98.1% vs. 97.1%.

Is this somthing to get excited about?
I am notorious for flipping letters around. Isn't dyslexia just a
wonderful thing?

Anyway it was not my argument.
http://www.copper.org/applications/e...onesizeup.html

"Leon" wrote in message
...


YES! My head was not in the right place, he did say wiring the shop. I
was thinking an extension cord, not Romex. My extension cord is a 10/3
with 3 insulated wires.


Oh hell - we all do that from time to time. It's what makes us loveable...

--

-Mike-

"John Starr" wrote in message
...
You have always heard there are no stupid questions. Maybe the
questions were asked for reference. To see what others had done when
there shop was wired. I think it was a legitimate question asking the
difference between the wires. If he is to have someone wire the shop
are all electricians going to wire with 12/2 on 220 and 10/2 on 110?
Knowledge is a good thing and being able to tell the electrician what
you want can only make the shop that much better.


One who lacks knowledge on a topic is far better served by telling the
electrician what functionality he wants and leaving the how-to's to the
person most knowledgeable - the electrician. BTW, no - all electricians are
not going to wire with 12/2 on 220 and 10/2 on 110. Just the opposite. And
yes - for the most part, all electricians are going to wire the same way -
based on the requirements of the circuit.

--

-Mike-

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:33:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


One who lacks knowledge on a topic is far better served by telling the
electrician what functionality he wants and leaving the how-to's to the
person most knowledgeable - the electrician. BTW, no - all electricians are
not going to wire with 12/2 on 220 and 10/2 on 110. Just the opposite. And
yes - for the most part, all electricians are going to wire the same way -
based on the requirements of the circuit.

I won't argue against the point of specifying the desired
functionality to the electrician - that's just good sense. But I do
take a mild exception to the "better served" part. It's been said that
a "little knowledge is dangerous", but I firmly believe that ignorance
is even more dangerous.

Before anybody gets incensed, "ignorance" is the opposite of
"knowledge", not the opposite of "intelligence" and is not an insult.
None of us know all there is to know, so we are all ignorant of more
things than we have knowledge of.

I applaud the OP's question. Any attempt by a person to convert a
little ignorance into a little knowledge is a laudable pursuit.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom Veatch wrote in message
...


I applaud the OP's question. Any attempt by a person to convert a
little ignorance into a little knowledge is a laudable pursuit.


Oh, I applaud anyone's interest in gaining new knowledge. That however, is
not the point of Robert's and other comments about seeking qualified help on
some things when one's level of knowledge is so low. And my follow on
comment in response to you was simply that one would be foolish to expect
that a couple of posts in a woodworking usenet newsgroup is make one capable
of directing an electrician in how to perform a task. That would be a
dangerous amount of knowledge.

--

-Mike-

Tom Veatch wrote in :

*snip*

Before anybody gets incensed, "ignorance" is the opposite of
"knowledge", not the opposite of "intelligence" and is not an insult.
None of us know all there is to know, so we are all ignorant of more
things than we have knowledge of.


*snip*

I know something about everything. Sometimes I know that I don't know.
;-)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Aug 10, 5:19 pm, wrote:
In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

In contemporary wiring, individual wires run in a sheathed cable. "Two-
wire with ground" and "three-wire with ground" cables are available.
Two-wire with ground cables have a black wire, a white wire and an
uninsulated ground. Three-wire with ground cables have a black wire, a
white wire, a red wire and an uninsulated ground. Older houses may
have "knob and tube" wiring-a two-wire system. With this system,
individual wires are insulated with white or black treated fabric.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio.../ElecOver.html
Resulting from Google Search using "Home Electrical Wiring Basics."

On Aug 10, 5:35 pm, "Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


"10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires."


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Gosh, bet that makes the Code Enforcement people very angry. This is
why you need to do your own, independent research. Lots of folks have
opinion they are willing to offer as answers on the "net." Of course,
all you had to do was drop by the hardware store, or Lowes, or HD, etc
where you could get a touchy feely answer and see for yourself.



In recent posts I have heard mention of 12/2 and 10/2 wire, as well as
12/3 and 10/3 wire. What is the difference and what would you wire a
new shop with?

I assume the 12/2 and 10/2 mean with ground.? What is the extra wire
in the 12/3 and 10/3 for? Is that for wiring 220V?

Jim

10/3 and 12/3 are with ground. Also there are only 3 wires in those cables.

10/2 and 12/2 only have 2 wires.

Let me add to "Some other suggestions:"

**** Put your lights on a separate (3/4-way switch at each entry
point) circuit.

Instead of Keyless bulb fixtures, consider installing DUPELX outlets
in the ceiling with one side always on and the other switched. Then
use hanging fluorescent fixtures (48" two-bulb units $9 at Lowes/HD/
Wal-Mart) that you can easily replace and even move about should you
get a new tool for christmas. In a pince, you can always drop a short
cord from one of them (hot side) to feed an occasional use tool over
the table saw, say.

"Put in lots of outlet." Yes, and use two duplex utlets (double box)
at every four feet along your wall surface mounted 38" or so o the
floor. Te extra duplex outlet will add about seventy cents to teh cost
per and will be well worth it when you need another outlet.

Extend the switched circuit to the top right duplex outlet (isolate it
by breaking off the tab at the two "hot" screws) and paint it red.
This is the outlet to use to plug in those transformers for battery
chargers an such that continue to "draw" as long as they are plugged
in. When you switch off the lights, they are disonnected - saves $$$
and the ransformer(s). I also wired my air compressor into the
switched circuit so that it doesn't "recharge" at 3AM waking the wife
and sending me to the shop in my skivvys.

Plan. I used a thing called 3D Home to layout rooms before
constructon. Then measure and estimate wire needs so you can buy in
BULK as suggested to save $$.

I you can, wire in a sub-panel to feed the entire shop so all your
breakers are in the shop. If you use a Main Breaker sub-panel, you can
cut off all the power when you have to add that circuit you should
have or use it as a disconnect.



It's a pain when you pop a breaker
and the lights go out.

If you have large stationery tools, put in a dedicated circuit for each one.

Put in lots of outlet. One for every three to four feet of wall at a
minimum.

Think about where you might put benches, etc. It helps to have plenty of
outlets nearby, including some above the bench. I put all the outlets in my
shop four feet above the floor.