I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp. Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240, and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?

Thanks,
Howard

Howard Swope wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

Sorry I've been lurking but here is my $0.02 I would run all the duplex
outlets with 12 guage wire with a 20 amp breaker protecting 2 or 3.



2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp. Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.


I would think a 20 amp breaker would work but I'm not positive on this.
You might even have to have a 30 amp breaker, but I would run aleast 10
guage wire to it.


3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240, and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

If it was me I would run the extra outlet.




4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)


You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box and every 4ft there after.


5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.


It can be run like that, but I can't remember if the NEC requires it to
be stapled or not. I always secure it down with a staple every other joist.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

3/3 is rated for a 100 amp sub, but if you can afford it run 2/3.



7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?


I would stick to SquareD so that you don't have to buy 2 different kinds
of breakers.
But I've not heard of any complaints about SquareD. Here in Tennessee
SquareD is one of the popular brands of electrical products.

Thanks,
Howard




My answers are all based on the info that I attained over the years and
my recent sub panel install that I had to do for my remodel.
A good book if for nothing else but for the NEC code information is
"Black & Decker The Complete Guide to Home Wiring" it is sold at Lowes.
I picked it up so I could see what new code changes I had to be aware
of. But if your unfamiliar of how to do something, this book will
explain it step by step. I don't do electrical for a living so I
sometimes need a little nudge. Of course I learned all the woodworking,
electrical and plumbing from the best, my father.



--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

"Dale Miller" wrote in message
...
Howard Swope wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the
township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in
the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was
going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

Sorry I've been lurking but here is my $0.02 I would run all the duplex
outlets with 12 guage wire with a 20 amp breaker protecting 2 or 3.



2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp.
Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like
there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.


I would think a 20 amp breaker would work but I'm not positive on this.
You might even have to have a 30 amp breaker, but I would run aleast 10
guage wire to it.

The spike is unimportant; it isn't for more than a second or two. However,
some day you may need a larger circuit, so 10 gauge with a 20a breaker makes
sense. It will also reduce voltage drop, especially on the spike.


3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240,
and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should
bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

If it was me I would run the extra outlet.

you can always put another outlet in, where you really want it, later; can't
you?
Someday you will want a 240v dust collector, but maybe not where you put the
outlet.


4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs
which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to
duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished basement
without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)


You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box and every 4ft there after.


5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over
some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each
other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.


It can be run like that, but I can't remember if the NEC requires it to
be stapled or not. I always secure it down with a staple every other
joist.

What do you mean it runs over beams? Steel beams? Normally it runs through
holes in the joists; no harm in it running over beams as long as it is
secured by the joists.


6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs
to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that
the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because
one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

3/3 is rated for a 100 amp sub, but if you can afford it run 2/3.



7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and
was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?


I would stick to SquareD so that you don't have to buy 2 different kinds
of breakers.
But I've not heard of any complaints about SquareD. Here in Tennessee
SquareD is one of the popular brands of electrical products.

Thanks,
Howard




My answers are all based on the info that I attained over the years and
my recent sub panel install that I had to do for my remodel.
A good book if for nothing else but for the NEC code information is
"Black & Decker The Complete Guide to Home Wiring" it is sold at Lowes.
I picked it up so I could see what new code changes I had to be aware
of. But if your unfamiliar of how to do something, this book will
explain it step by step. I don't do electrical for a living so I
sometimes need a little nudge. Of course I learned all the woodworking,
electrical and plumbing from the best, my father.



--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

Howard Swope wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the
township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots
available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new
outlets in
the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he
snip

Some suggestions:

SRWIW, unless you are adding A/C or a heat pump to the sub panel, a
2P-60A should be adequate for shop needs.

1) Check existing panel and see if it will accept a 2P-100A sub feed
c'bkr. If not, will it accept 2P-60A?

2) Locate new 100A panel in shop area fed by subfeed c'bkr above.

3) Use 1P-20A for outlets.

4) Use 2P-30A for 240V loads

BTW, a 5HP, cap start, cap run air compressor motor requires a 2P-40A
c'bkr.

Remember, c'bkrs in a panel must be derated 20% per code.

IOW, a 20A c'bkr can carry 16A on a continuous basis. At higher loads,
you are operating on the time portion of the curve.

Have fun.


Lew

If you have an air compressor and leave it on it might be worth a dedicated
crcuit for it and any dust control equipment which might run when other
equipment is operating


Howard Swope" wrote in message
news:eSlbi.618$or4.438@trnddc06...
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in
the shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp.
Will that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like
there is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240,
and I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should
bother running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one
just in case?

4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to
duplicate this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished
basement without studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt
really good about it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each
other. Is that up to code? It seems odd.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that
the grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel
because one wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and
was considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the
new panel to remain consistent?

Thanks,
Howard

In article eSlbi.618$or4.438@trnddc06, "Howard Swope" wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Just "a couple more"? Take my advice: install at least twice as many as you
think you need.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

I would certainly run at least one 30A 240V circuit, to support (for example)
simultaneous use of a dust collector and a table saw, or an air compressor.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp. Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

Yes, but you don't need to worry about that. The spike is of very short
duration. It will do fine on a 20A breaker.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240, and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

I think so, yes. If you're going to run only one 240V circuit, make it 30A. If
you run two, you're fine with both of them 20A.

4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel?

It meets Code.

(I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

If it were my shop, I'd panel the walls with something. Drywall, OSB, plywood,
whatever. Protects the wires, gives you convenient places to hang things,
reduces by about 99% the number of corners where dust can collect... you can
probably think of a dozen other reasons, too, but perhaps the most important
(and certainly the most easily overlooked) is that once you have the walls
paneled and painted white, your shop will be *much* brighter.

5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet. It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the cable
to the boards.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground.

For 100A, you need 3-ga copper (minimum). I'm not sure anybody makes NM that
large. I'd use individual THHN conductors in rigid non-metallic conduit (PVC
electrical conduit -- *not* PVC water pipe).

I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

Yes, it is done differently. Not because you want the shortest path to ground,
though, but because you want only *one* path to ground.

Neutral and ground are bonded together in the main panel, and, in fact, the
Code does not require (AFAIK) that there even be two separate bars in the
main. If there are two bars, they are required to be connected together.

In a subpanel, however, neutral and ground are required to be on two separate
bars -- if your subpanel doesn't have a separate grounding bar, you'll have to
buy one -- and they *must*not* be connected. Frequently, panels are supplied
from the factory with a bonding screw through the neutral bar, that bonds it
to the chassis of the panel. If your subpanel has one of those bonding screws,
you *must* remove it. The neutral bar in a subpanel *must* be electrically
insulated from the panel chassis, and the grounding bar *must* be electrically
*continuous* with the chassis.

The four-wire feed coming from the main panel to the subpanel must be
connected as follows:
- two hot legs, marked red and black, to the lugs on the subpanel main breaker
- neutral, marked white or gray, to the neutral bar in the subpanel
- ground, marked green or left bare, to the ground bar in the subpanel

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?

It doesn't really matter. What complaints have you heard about Square D?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Dale Miller wrote:


You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box

12 inches [2005 NEC, Article 334.30]

and every 4ft there after.

4.5 feet [Art. 334.30]


5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

It can be run like that,

No it cannot. Not if he means it's crossing joists, anyway. [Article
334.15(C)]

but I can't remember if the NEC requires it to
be stapled or not.

It does. No farther apart than every 4.5 feet. [Article 334.30]

But not to the bottoms of the joists. [Article 334.15(C)]

I always secure it down with a staple every other joist.

That's a Code violation.

Please familiarize yourself with the NEC before attempting to answer any
further electrical questions.

Here's a start:

"Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be
permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG
conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be
run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards." [Article
334.15(C)]

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

3/3 is rated for a 100 amp sub, but if you can afford it run 2/3.

Just to clarify: 3/3 WG (with ground).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article k.net, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Remember, c'bkrs in a panel must be derated 20% per code.

??????

IOW, a 20A c'bkr can carry 16A on a continuous basis. At higher loads,
you are operating on the time portion of the curve.

The 20% rule applies only to continuous load, which is defined as a load
drawing maximum current for three hours or more. There is absolutely nothing
wrong with operating a 20A circuit at 19 or 20 amps for short times.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Howard Swope" wrote in message news:eSlbi.618$or4.438@trnddc06...
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the
township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in
the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

Listen to, and do, what Lew Hodgett suggests ... I followed his advice about
six years ago and am glad I did, it's all you need.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 00:34:18 GMT, "Howard Swope"
wrote:

I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

Depends on the equipment and the length of wire. Most applications
the 12 ga will be fine.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp. Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

Yes, there is a spike although not enough for concern.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240, and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

Yes! Most likely, your shop will evolve. Putting in more 240v outlets
makes sense so you can add a 240v DC, lathe or joiner. Outlets are
not expensive. Put at least one 240v outlet on every wall.


4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

It's OK. But it is better to install paneling or drywall--makes
cleaning easier.


5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

It is best to run wires through the middle of beams, rather than under
and/or over.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

My subpanel has its own ground. You will have to seek a local
electrician's advice on this one.

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?


Not necessary.

Thanks,
Howard

Doug Miller wrote:


No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet. It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the cable
to the boards.

Ok, Doug, what if the joists are 16 or 24 OC?
Wouldn't that be less than 4.5 ft?
Thus the ability to run the NM above the joist so long as it was stapled
or secured?

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground.

For 100A, you need 3-ga copper (minimum). I'm not sure anybody makes NM that
large. I'd use individual THHN conductors in rigid non-metallic conduit (PVC
electrical conduit -- *not* PVC water pipe).


I could have bought 3-ga copper in a NM but my source couldn't get me
40ft at less than the 2-ga copper NM. They were out of the 3-ga and
there new shippment would cost me more per foot than the 2 ga.
Of course they had 3-ga in stock but not 40 continuous feet of it.
So I opted to go with the 2 ga at just over a $1.00 foot less.
Plenty large enough for a 100 amp sub.

--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller wrote:

You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box

12 inches [2005 NEC, Article 334.30]

The code book I have say 8 inches.


and every 4ft there after.

4.5 feet [Art. 334.30]

And it also says 48 inches.
I looked up both



5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.
It can be run like that,

No it cannot. Not if he means it's crossing joists, anyway. [Article
334.15(C)]

but I can't remember if the NEC requires it to
be stapled or not.

It does. No farther apart than every 4.5 feet. [Article 334.30]

But not to the bottoms of the joists. [Article 334.15(C)]

I always secure it down with a staple every other joist.

That's a Code violation.

Please familiarize yourself with the NEC before attempting to answer any
further electrical questions.

Here's a start:

"Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be
permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG
conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be
run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards." [Article
334.15(C)]
6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?
3/3 is rated for a 100 amp sub, but if you can afford it run 2/3.

Just to clarify: 3/3 WG (with ground).


Thanks but I read that as the bottom of the joist not the top.
Here in my jurisdication all of the electrical contractors run there
wire in the attic spaces above the ceiling joists and don't use any
holes to run them. And no where do I read in the code that is wrong to
do that. And if you had ceiling joist 24 inches OC and stapled the wire
down every other joist that is within the 48 inch code.




--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:


No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet. It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the cable
to the boards.

Ok, Doug, what if the joists are 16 or 24 OC?

Doesn't matter *what* the joist spacing is. The Code does not permit stapling
NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists. Period. There are no
exceptions.

Wouldn't that be less than 4.5 ft?

Securing the cable *more* often than the Code requires is not a problem.
Securing it to the bottom of joists *is* a problem.

Thus the ability to run the NM above the joist so long as it was stapled
or secured?

*Above* the joist? How do you do that in a basement? Above the joist is the
subfloor. Did you mean below the joist? Can't do that. The Code absolutely
prohibits stapling NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller
wrote:

You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box

12 inches [2005 NEC, Article 334.30]

The code book I have say 8 inches.

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.


and every 4ft there after.

4.5 feet [Art. 334.30]

And it also says 48 inches.
I looked up both

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.

[snip]

Thanks but I read that as the bottom of the joist not the top.

Yes.... that was kinda the point....

Here in my jurisdication all of the electrical contractors run there
wire in the attic spaces above the ceiling joists

Nobody was talking about "attic spaces". The original poster wanted advice on
wiring for his shop in the *basement*.

and don't use any
holes to run them. And no where do I read in the code that is wrong to
do that.

You haven't read the right parts of the Code, then. While it doesn't prohibit
running cables across the top of joists in an attic, it *does* prohibit doing
so without installing guard strips to protect them:

"The installation of [NM] cable in accessible attics or roof spaces shall
also comply with 320.23." [2005 NEC, Article 334.23]

"Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or floor
joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics and roof spaces that
are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips that
are at least as high as the cable." [ibid., Art. 320.23(A)]

Of course, as noted above, this is irrelevant to this thread anyway, since the
subject of discussion is wiring in an unfinished basement. (You didn't really
think the OP had his shop in the attic, did you?)


And if you had ceiling joist 24 inches OC and stapled the wire
down every other joist that is within the 48 inch code.

54 inches.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article eSlbi.618$or4.438@trnddc06, "Howard Swope"
wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the
township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in
the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Just "a couple more"? Take my advice: install at least twice as many as
you
think you need.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

I would certainly run at least one 30A 240V circuit, to support (for
example)
simultaneous use of a dust collector and a table saw, or an air
compressor.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp.
Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

Yes, but you don't need to worry about that. The spike is of very short
duration. It will do fine on a 20A breaker.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240,
and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should
bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

I think so, yes. If you're going to run only one 240V circuit, make it
30A. If
you run two, you're fine with both of them 20A.

4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to
duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel?

It meets Code.

(I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

If it were my shop, I'd panel the walls with something. Drywall, OSB,
plywood,
whatever. Protects the wires, gives you convenient places to hang things,
reduces by about 99% the number of corners where dust can collect... you
can
probably think of a dozen other reasons, too, but perhaps the most
important
(and certainly the most easily overlooked) is that once you have the walls
paneled and painted white, your shop will be *much* brighter.

5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each
other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet.
It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run
NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in
the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the
cable
to the boards.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground.

For 100A, you need 3-ga copper (minimum). I'm not sure anybody makes NM
that
large. I'd use individual THHN conductors in rigid non-metallic conduit
(PVC
electrical conduit -- *not* PVC water pipe).

I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because
one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

Yes, it is done differently. Not because you want the shortest path to
ground,
though, but because you want only *one* path to ground.

Neutral and ground are bonded together in the main panel, and, in fact,
the
Code does not require (AFAIK) that there even be two separate bars in the
main. If there are two bars, they are required to be connected together.

In a subpanel, however, neutral and ground are required to be on two
separate
bars -- if your subpanel doesn't have a separate grounding bar, you'll
have to
buy one -- and they *must*not* be connected. Frequently, panels are
supplied
from the factory with a bonding screw through the neutral bar, that bonds
it
to the chassis of the panel. If your subpanel has one of those bonding
screws,
you *must* remove it. The neutral bar in a subpanel *must* be electrically
insulated from the panel chassis, and the grounding bar *must* be
electrically
*continuous* with the chassis.

The four-wire feed coming from the main panel to the subpanel must be
connected as follows:
- two hot legs, marked red and black, to the lugs on the subpanel main
breaker
- neutral, marked white or gray, to the neutral bar in the subpanel
- ground, marked green or left bare, to the ground bar in the subpanel

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and
was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?

It doesn't really matter. What complaints have you heard about Square D?


Thanks for the information (everyone has been very helpful). In regards to
Square D, I don't remember the specifics of what I read, but it was a
posting someplace. My recollection was only that this one gentlement had
difficulties with Square D and was recommending moving away from their
stuff. No one else seems to have responded in the negative, so I might go
with it just to stay consistent with the current setup.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Howard Swope wrote:

Thanks for the information (everyone has been very helpful). In
regards to
Square D, I don't remember the specifics of what I read, but it was a
posting someplace. My recollection was only that this one
gentlement had
difficulties with Square D and was recommending moving away from their
stuff. No one else seems to have responded in the negative, so I
might go
with it just to stay consistent with the current setup.


The only problem with Square Duck is they use ******* size c'bkrs.

If you use their panel, then you must use their c'bkrs.

Other manufacturers use a more common 1" & 1/2" c'bkrs that can often
be used interchangeably.

Lew

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet. It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the cable
to the boards.
Ok, Doug, what if the joists are 16 or 24 OC?

Doesn't matter *what* the joist spacing is. The Code does not permit stapling
NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists. Period. There are no
exceptions.

Wouldn't that be less than 4.5 ft?

Securing the cable *more* often than the Code requires is not a problem.
Securing it to the bottom of joists *is* a problem.

Thus the ability to run the NM above the joist so long as it was stapled
or secured?

*Above* the joist? How do you do that in a basement? Above the joist is the
subfloor. Did you mean below the joist? Can't do that. The Code absolutely
prohibits stapling NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists.


Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.



--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

No, that's not up to Code. NM is required to be supported every 4.5 feet. It's
also not allowed to be stapled across ceiling joists. When you need to run NM
across joists, you must either (a) run the cable through holes bored in the
joists, or (b) attach running boards across the joists, and secure the cable
to the boards.
Ok, Doug, what if the joists are 16 or 24 OC?

Doesn't matter *what* the joist spacing is. The Code does not permit stapling
NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists. Period. There are no
exceptions.

Wouldn't that be less than 4.5 ft?

Securing the cable *more* often than the Code requires is not a problem.
Securing it to the bottom of joists *is* a problem.

Thus the ability to run the NM above the joist so long as it was stapled
or secured?

*Above* the joist? How do you do that in a basement? Above the joist is the
subfloor. Did you mean below the joist? Can't do that. The Code absolutely
prohibits stapling NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists.

Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.

There's nothing whatever in the original post that even suggests that might be
the case. I think "the problem we are having" is that, as shown by some of
your other comments, you were thinking he was wiring in an attic.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller
wrote:
You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box
12 inches [2005 NEC, Article 334.30]
The code book I have say 8 inches.

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.

2005 NEC...for non-metallic boxes you have to staple the NM within 8
inches of the box.

and every 4ft there after.
4.5 feet [Art. 334.30]
And it also says 48 inches.
I looked up both

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.

For non-metallic boxes the every 48 inches.
All from NEC 314.17 (C) Nonmetallic Boxes and Conduit Bodies.

[snip]

Thanks but I read that as the bottom of the joist not the top.

Yes.... that was kinda the point....

Here in my jurisdication all of the electrical contractors run there
wire in the attic spaces above the ceiling joists

Nobody was talking about "attic spaces". The original poster wanted advice on
wiring for his shop in the *basement*.

and don't use any
holes to run them. And no where do I read in the code that is wrong to
do that.

You haven't read the right parts of the Code, then. While it doesn't prohibit
running cables across the top of joists in an attic, it *does* prohibit doing
so without installing guard strips to protect them:

"The installation of [NM] cable in accessible attics or roof spaces shall
also comply with 320.23." [2005 NEC, Article 334.23]

"Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or floor
joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics and roof spaces that
are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips that
are at least as high as the cable." [ibid., Art. 320.23(A)]

Of course, as noted above, this is irrelevant to this thread anyway, since the
subject of discussion is wiring in an unfinished basement. (You didn't really
think the OP had his shop in the attic, did you?)

This maybe irrevalent but as per NEC 334.23 (320.23)
"Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders,
protection shall only be required within 1.8m (6ft) of the nearest edge
of scuttle hole or attic entrance.



And if you had ceiling joist 24 inches OC and stapled the wire
down every other joist that is within the 48 inch code.

54 inches.


If you do the searching yourself you will find the code that says 48
inches. I know it's in there I just read it.

All in all your taking the NEC out of context when you only show part of it.
The laymen can't understand it this way.


As for the OP if he has solid 2X framed joists, then you would be
correct. But if he has truss style joists then he could run the wiring
as if it was an attic space, so long as the wire doesn't run under the
framing member. But I am pretty sure there is an exception somewhere in
the NEC for that too.





--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

Dale Miller wrote:

Thus the ability to run the NM above the joist so long as it was stapled
or secured?
*Above* the joist? How do you do that in a basement? Above the joist is the
subfloor. Did you mean below the joist? Can't do that. The Code absolutely
prohibits stapling NM cable smaller than 6-2 or 8-3 to the bottom of joists.


Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.

Boy, I went back and re-read Howard Swope's original post. I think
you're making quite a stretch to interpret it that way. When you hear
hoofbeats, you should be thinking of horses, not zebras. Unless, of
course, you're on the African plain.

One way to settle this aspect of the controversy. Howard? Do you have
solid floor joists over your shop area or some sort of open truss system?

Say What? wrote:
Dale Miller wrote:

....

Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.

Boy, I went back and re-read Howard Swope's original post. I think
you're making quite a stretch to interpret it that way. ...

"...there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some ceiling beams. It
isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other. ..."

I've not been participating in the thread but that was my reaction when
I read that in the initial posting was the original wiring was just
laying through the floor trusses overhead in the basement. Pretty
common practice, ime...

Certainly while it isn't unequivocal, would seem to make more sense than
that there could be a bunch of wire on top of solid joists in a basement
where one would presume there's flooring on the top side of them.

I'm guessing (but admittedly it is a guess) that the "beams" is a
misnomer for lack of knowledge/experience to automatically call them
"trusses"...

IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

--


--

dpb wrote:
Say What? wrote:
Dale Miller wrote:

...

Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.

Boy, I went back and re-read Howard Swope's original post. I think
you're making quite a stretch to interpret it that way. ...

"...there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some ceiling beams. It
isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other. ..."

I've not been participating in the thread but that was my reaction when
I read that in the initial posting was the original wiring was just
laying through the floor trusses overhead in the basement. Pretty
common practice, ime...

Certainly while it isn't unequivocal, would seem to make more sense than
that there could be a bunch of wire on top of solid joists in a basement
where one would presume there's flooring on the top side of them.

I'm guessing (but admittedly it is a guess) that the "beams" is a
misnomer for lack of knowledge/experience to automatically call them
"trusses"..

Surely it's a possibility, but so could it be that the "kind of weaves
in and out of each other" be referring to thecables themselves with,
perhaps, only one stapled in place. Who knows? Howard does! Howard!
Come back here pleaseg

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Dale Miller
wrote:
You can run NM cable inside walls like your describing. If you don't
have a joisted wall to contain the wire you need to use conduit, but
then you have to use thhn or thwn wire. You also have to staple the wire
within 8 inches of the box
12 inches [2005 NEC, Article 334.30]
The code book I have say 8 inches.

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.

2005 NEC...for non-metallic boxes you have to staple the NM within 8
inches of the box.

No, you don't. The requirement is twelve inches maximum.

and every 4ft there after.
4.5 feet [Art. 334.30]
And it also says 48 inches.
I looked up both

What code book are you using? Obviously not the National Electrical Code.

For non-metallic boxes the every 48 inches.

The interval between points at which the cable is required to be secured has
nothing whatsoever to do with the type of boxes used.

All from NEC 314.17 (C) Nonmetallic Boxes and Conduit Bodies.

You're misreading that rather badly, I'm afraid.

314.17(C) does *not* require securing the cable at any particular distance
from a non-metallic box; rather, it states that *if* the cable is secured
within eight inches of a nonmetallic box, then it is not required to secure
the cable to the *box*.

And it says nothing whatever about any supposed 48-inch interval.


[snip]

Thanks but I read that as the bottom of the joist not the top.

Yes.... that was kinda the point....

Here in my jurisdication all of the electrical contractors run there
wire in the attic spaces above the ceiling joists

Nobody was talking about "attic spaces". The original poster wanted advice on
wiring for his shop in the *basement*.

and don't use any
holes to run them. And no where do I read in the code that is wrong to
do that.

You haven't read the right parts of the Code, then. While it doesn't prohibit
running cables across the top of joists in an attic, it *does* prohibit doing
so without installing guard strips to protect them:

"The installation of [NM] cable in accessible attics or roof spaces shall
also comply with 320.23." [2005 NEC, Article 334.23]

"Where run across the top of floor joists, or within 7 feet of floor or floor
joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics and roof spaces that
are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial guard strips that
are at least as high as the cable." [ibid., Art. 320.23(A)]

Of course, as noted above, this is irrelevant to this thread anyway, since the
subject of discussion is wiring in an unfinished basement. (You didn't really
think the OP had his shop in the attic, did you?)

This maybe irrevalent but as per NEC 334.23 (320.23)
"Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders,
protection shall only be required within 1.8m (6ft) of the nearest edge
of scuttle hole or attic entrance.

Right, that's for inaccessible attics. Certainly irrelevant to someone who's
wiring a shop in his basement.

And if you had ceiling joist 24 inches OC and stapled the wire
down every other joist that is within the 48 inch code.

54 inches.

If you do the searching yourself you will find the code that says 48
inches.

I *did* search. It says 4.5 feet. And I cited the section of the Code that
specifies 4.5 feet (Article 334.30, in case you've forgotten).

I know it's in there I just read it.

Fine -- then cite the section of the Code where you think you read a
requirement to secure NM cable every 48 inches.

All in all your taking the NEC out of context when you only show part of it.
The laymen can't understand it this way.

To the contrary, it is you who are taking pieces out of context, and you who
are failing to understand it -- witness, for example, your misinterpretation
of 314.17 as supposedly requiring NM to be secured within 8" of a box. That's
not what it says.

As for the OP if he has solid 2X framed joists, then you would be
correct. But if he has truss style joists then he could run the wiring
as if it was an attic space, so long as the wire doesn't run under the
framing member.

No, he could not. If he has truss-style joists, he could run the wiring
*through* them, but not *on*top* of them "as if it was an attic space". He's
in a basement, remember? What's *on*top* of his joists?

But I am pretty sure there is an exception somewhere in
the NEC for that too.

Fine -- cite it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Say What? wrote:
dpb wrote:
Say What? wrote:
Dale Miller wrote:

...

Here is the problem we are having...your thinking of a solid 2x floor
joist. But the way I read OP as having truss style floor joists. So if
that is what he has than you could wire above the bottom of the joist.

Boy, I went back and re-read Howard Swope's original post. I think
you're making quite a stretch to interpret it that way. ...

"...there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some ceiling beams. It
isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other. ..."

I've not been participating in the thread but that was my reaction
when I read that in the initial posting was the original wiring was
just laying through the floor trusses overhead in the basement.
Pretty common practice, ime...

Certainly while it isn't unequivocal, would seem to make more sense
than that there could be a bunch of wire on top of solid joists in a
basement where one would presume there's flooring on the top side of
them.

I'm guessing (but admittedly it is a guess) that the "beams" is a
misnomer for lack of knowledge/experience to automatically call them
"trusses"..

Surely it's a possibility, but so could it be that the "kind of weaves
in and out of each other" be referring to thecables themselves with,
perhaps, only one stapled in place. Who knows? Howard does! Howard!
Come back here pleaseg

After this, he'd be crazy to come back, ever...

I'd presume they probably do inter-twine and probably aren't stapled at
all but just laying on the bottom chord and maybe going through a brace
member now and then. Looks like h, but is very common in tract houses
and doesn't violate code -- code doesn't address neatness itself much...

--

In article , says...
I'd presume they probably do inter-twine and probably aren't stapled at
all but just laying on the bottom chord and maybe going through a brace
member now and then. Looks like h, but is very common in tract houses
and doesn't violate code -- code doesn't address neatness itself much...

Actually, it does: "Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat
and workmanlike manner." [Article 110.12]

I'm not going to fight with you on the NEC issues anymore.
Obviously you can't look up the what I stated.
The stapling within 8" pertains to non-metallic boxes that have no means
of securing them to the box, like metallic boxes having romex
connectors. So the exception says that they have to be secured within 8"
of the box. I do not have to search the code anymore if you don't
believe me and think I'm wrong so be it. But you haven't completely
proven that I don't know what I'm talking about.


As for the OP if he has solid 2X framed joists, then you would be
correct. But if he has truss style joists then he could run the wiring
as if it was an attic space, so long as the wire doesn't run under the
framing member.

No, he could not. If he has truss-style joists, he could run the wiring
*through* them, but not *on*top* of them "as if it was an attic space". He's
in a basement, remember? What's *on*top* of his joists?

That was what I was referring to. Not the top of the joist themselves.
That would be totally dumb because the subfloor would crush the wire.
I'm not that stupid, but it seems you think I am cause you jumped me
right off the bat, on my first ever post.

But I am pretty sure there is an exception somewhere in
the NEC for that too.

Fine -- cite it.

How about you look it up and prove me wrong. Seems you have taking to
liking and jumping me, on my first post to the list. Maybe I'm not
explaining myself correctly.
So I'll tell you what prove me wrong, you obviously think I am.




--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

Ok what I also don't get is why you are jumping me.
Most inspectors don't have a problem if you do better than the code.
So if I say 8" and 48" then that is better than code, because you say
I'm wrong and code says MAXIMUM 12" and 54" well if that is the case
then I'm still doing it correctly anyway. Because last I checked 8" and
48" are less than 12" and 54"


--
All the Best
Dale Miller
Tennessee
ASP since February 2005





(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com

----

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
I'm not going to fight with you on the NEC issues anymore.
Obviously you can't look up the what I stated.

That's pretty funny, really, because I clearly cited the Code provisions that
back up my statements -- and *you* are unwilling to look up what *I* provided.
It's very clear that I *did* look up what you stated, because I already said
once exactly why you're mistaken about what it says.

The stapling within 8" pertains to non-metallic boxes that have no means
of securing them to the box, like metallic boxes having romex
connectors.

Actually, most non-metallic boxes *do* have a means of securing the cable to
the box.

So the exception says that they have to be secured within 8"
of the box.

It does not. It says that *if* the cable is secured within 8" of the box, it
is not required to be secured to the box.

I do not have to search the code anymore if you don't
believe me and think I'm wrong so be it. But you haven't completely
proven that I don't know what I'm talking about.

You don't. And apparently you'd prefer to be proven wrong than to admit that
you made a mistake.

So here's the proof.

The Code article which *you* cited, 314.17(C), says:

"Non-metallic Boxes and Conduit Bodies. [...] In all instances, all permitted
wiring methods shall be secured to the boxes. Exception: Where non-metallic
sheathed cable or multiconductor type UF cable is used with single gang boxes
not larger than a nominal size 57 mm x 100 mm (2 1/4 in x 4 in) mounted in
walls or ceilings, and where the cable is fastened within 200 mm (8 in) of the
box measured along the sheath and where the sheath extends through a cable
knockout not less than 6 mm (1/4 in), securing the cable to the box shall not
be required."

This is an exception from the requirement to secure the cable to the *box*,
not a requirement to secure the cable to the framing at any particular point.

Nothing there about your mythical 48" requirement, either.

As for the OP if he has solid 2X framed joists, then you would be
correct. But if he has truss style joists then he could run the wiring
as if it was an attic space, so long as the wire doesn't run under the
framing member.

No, he could not. If he has truss-style joists, he could run the wiring
*through* them, but not *on*top* of them "as if it was an attic space". He's
in a basement, remember? What's *on*top* of his joists?

That was what I was referring to. Not the top of the joist themselves.

Sorry, my crystal ball is down this week. The only way I have of figuring out
what you meant is by reading what you wrote. If you didn't write what you
meant, it's hardly reasonable to blame the *reader* for not understanding.

That would be totally dumb because the subfloor would crush the wire.
I'm not that stupid, but it seems you think I am cause you jumped me
right off the bat, on my first ever post.

You gave incorrect answers to an electrical question. I corrected your errors.
Not my fault if you're unable to handle it.

But I am pretty sure there is an exception somewhere in
the NEC for that too.

Fine -- cite it.

How about you look it up and prove me wrong.

I've already done that. Haven't you been paying attention to the Code cites
I've posted? Go back and look them up.

Seems you have taking to
liking and jumping me, on my first post to the list. Maybe I'm not
explaining myself correctly.

There isn't any way to correctly explain incorrect statements.

So I'll tell you what prove me wrong, you obviously think I am.

I already did prove you wrong, by citing the relevant articles of the Code.
If you think the Code says something different, then you find it and post it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Dale Miller wrote:
Ok what I also don't get is why you are jumping me.

I'm not "jumping" you, Dale. I'm pointing out the errors in your statements
about the requirements of the NEC. It's clear that you have not thoroughly
read and understood it, and yet you attempt to answer questions based on your
incomplete and incorrect understanding -- and wind up giving incorrect answers
as a result. Then you argue with me when I cite (and quote) the provisions of
the Code that show what it *really* says.

Incorrect answers to electrical questions can be deadly. If you're going to
attempt to answer such questions, you must first know what you're talking
about.

So far, you haven't shown persuasive evidence that you do.

Most inspectors don't have a problem if you do better than the code.
So if I say 8" and 48" then that is better than code, because you say
I'm wrong and code says MAXIMUM 12" and 54" well if that is the case
then I'm still doing it correctly anyway. Because last I checked 8" and
48" are less than 12" and 54"

Quite true. Securing at 8" from the box, and every 48" thereafter, certainly
is Code-compliant. To state that the Code *requires* that, simply is not true.

And it leaves me wondering how many other provisions of the Code you've
misunderstood.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Dale Miller" wrote in message

Ok what I also don't get is why you are jumping me.

LOL ... don't worry too much about it, Dale. Just consider that you've
learned early why he's known as the #1 dickhead on the wRec. Save yourself
some time and go ahead and plonk his argumentative ass and be done with it
.... you'll be glad you did.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
"Dale Miller" wrote in message

Ok what I also don't get is why you are jumping me.

LOL ... don't worry too much about it, Dale. Just consider that you've
learned early why he's known as the #1 dickhead on the wRec.

Actually, I think that might be you -- you absolutely can't stand it when
anybody disagrees with you, and reply with abuse to any suggestion that you're
mistaken. It seems to particularly gall you when you're wrong and I'm right;
it's not clear to me exactly why, but I suspect that it might be insecurity
over your inability to express yourself clearly.

And you clearly haven't bothered to read this thread before making this
insulting and ignorant comment; if you had, you would have seen that Dale's
statements about the relevant provisions of the electrical code are factually
incorrect, and his defense of them even more so.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Swingman wrote:

Save yourself
some time and go ahead and plonk his argumentative ass and be done
with it
... you'll be glad you did.

Yep.

Lew

Doug Miller wrote:

And you clearly haven't bothered to read this thread before making this
insulting and ignorant comment; if you had, you would have seen that Dale's
statements about the relevant provisions of the electrical code are factually
incorrect, and his defense of them even more so.


My take on the whole matter is that EVERY time the NEC is discussed,
there's debate.

Is anyone on this list a licensed master electrician?

If so, let him speak up and resolve this issue, please. If no licensed
master electrician, then perhaps a journeyman with experience in the
type of wiring contemplated. Otherwise, code citations notwithstanding,
this is too serious an area for guesswork of ANY sort. The best possible
advice to the OP is to seek assistance locally from someone trained to
give it. The second best advice is to buy a book on the topic area and
follow it precisely.

Nobody here knows everything about everything. Not even me.

Oh ... and Dale ... now you are learning why this is called 'the wreck'.

Bill


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On 11 Jun, 20:34, "Howard Swope" wrote:
I am in the process of applying for an electrical permit from the township.
I have an existing 200 amp service which has two breaker spots available.
From here I am going to run a 100 amp subpanel to support new outlets in the
shop. The current drawing I am working on can be see he

http://www.hms3.com/images/basement.jpg

I plan on running at least 1 240v outlet for a table saw. Then I was going
to run a couple more outlets to support various other shop tools.

Some questions I have:

1. I am wondering if I should run 30 amp breakers with 10 gauge wire for
everything or wether 20 amp breakers with 12 guage would suffice.

2. The table saw that I am planning for the shop rates at 240v 13 amp. Will
that pull more than 13 amp when it is first turned on? It seems like there
is always a spike when a motor first turns on.

3. At this point I don't have plans for another tool that requires 240, and
I don't have a whole lot of space in the shop. I don't think I should bother
running another 240, but does it make sense to run a second one just in
case?

4. The shop part of the basement is unfinished and has exposed studs which
are the back of the finished part of the basement. Right now all existing
recepticals are just connected to these studs with NM electrical cable
running through the studs back to the existing panel. Is it OK to duplicate
this practice with the new subpanel? (I wired an unfinished basement without
studs some years ago and used aluminum conduit. I fealt really good about
it. It doesn't sit well having all this cable exposed.)

5. In the existing wiring there is a bunch of NM cable that runs over some
ceiling beams. It isn't secured and kind of weaves in and out of each other.
Is that up to code? It seems odd.

6. What kind of wire is recommended to run between the panels? It needs to
be rated to 100 amp and have 3 wires and a ground. I believe I read that the
grounding is done differently on the subpanel vs the main panel because one
wants the shortest path to ground. Could someone elaborate?

7. The existing panel is Square D, but I have heard some complaints and was
considering using GE for the new one. Should I use Square D for the new
panel to remain consistent?

Thanks,
Howard

I haven't read all the other responses in detail, so this may already
have been addressed:

Make sure the lights in your shop are on a dedicated circuit. You
don't want any of your power equipment or anything (or anybody!) in
the finished part of the basement tripping the circuit that controls
the lights while you're in the shop.

Is the furnace for the house or just the shop? If it for the house,
have you figured out how to protect it from workshop dust and fumes?
If it's a forced air system you could end up spreading dust and fumes
from the shop throughout the house.

I see 2 sump holes. Do you need to be concerned with huge swings in
humidity when there's water in the sumps vs. dry times? (I don't have
sumps, so I don't even know it that's a concern.)