I'm getting a rare opportunity to make a new shop from scratch. I'll
get all of a three car garage. We'll have a separate barn/outbuilding
for the lawn equipment and bicycles and such. Here's what I've been
thinking:

A separate subpanel for the equipment, although I'm undecided on the
current. I have a 100amp panel mainly for the extra breaker
positions, but I may only run 60 amps to it. Should I do the whole
100? It's possible although unlikely that I could end up with some
really big machines and maybe even a rotary 3-phase converter.
Although for the time being, I'm not likely to have more than a 5 horse
single phase on any machine.

I'm considering framing a separate room for the dust collector and
compressor. Right now, I have a little PC pancake compressor that can
wake the dead, but I plan on a big 80-gallon compressor when I move up
to hvlp. Should I make a little room for these things or leave them
out in the open? What should I do to sound-proof the room? insulate?
solid core door?

How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

I figured this room would be maybe half the size of a 1-car garage,
maybe a little smaller.

I could also frame the rest of that 1-car garage side to be a finishing
room. Is this worth it? Or would it be better to just have a
finishing "area" so I could use that space for something else just in
case? Believe it or not, I'm worried about being able to squeeze into
a 2-car garage, but I guess if the DC and compressor are out of the
way, it would be easy. I guess I could use the finishing room for
assembly and storage also.

Should I paint the floor with something? The bare concrete in my
current garage/shop has been fine. I'm thinking that by painting it
white, it might brighten up the shop. I'm worried about the floor
being too slick when there's sawdust on it though.

Another idea for the floor crossed my mind. The ceilings are going to
be about 10'. I could, in theory, build up the floor by 6" and run
electrical and DC under the floor, even heat. That would certainly
raise some eyebrows I think if anyone saw it with the door open. It
also would prevent me from moving the machines and fitting a car in the
shop for an emergency winter auto repair. It would also make an
unwanted step at the garage door. The thought did cross my mind
though.

6" or 4" ductwork?

I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current place.
What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall with wood
so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about the cost of
that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling? painted
plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?

I think a ceiling fan would mix up the air and help with heating.

Sorry for so many questions, thanks.

brian

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting a rare opportunity to make a new shop from scratch. I'll
get all of a three car garage. We'll have a separate barn/outbuilding
for the lawn equipment and bicycles and such. Here's what I've been
thinking:

A separate subpanel for the equipment, although I'm undecided on the
current. I have a 100amp panel mainly for the extra breaker
positions, but I may only run 60 amps to it. Should I do the whole
100? It's possible although unlikely that I could end up with some
really big machines and maybe even a rotary 3-phase converter.
Although for the time being, I'm not likely to have more than a 5 horse
single phase on any machine.

I would use the 100, one never knows what the future holds.

I'm considering framing a separate room for the dust collector and
compressor. Right now, I have a little PC pancake compressor that can
wake the dead, but I plan on a big 80-gallon compressor when I move up
to hvlp. Should I make a little room for these things or leave them
out in the open? What should I do to sound-proof the room? insulate?
solid core door?

I would not put the compressor in the same room as the DC. A compressor
needs a cool/clean
environment. Its generates heat when running and needs fresh, clean air for
optimum efficiency.
I would build the room, sepreate the two machines from each other. Provide
for cool/outside air for the compressor.

How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

The dust collector will need a place to vent the air it draws from your
shop. I don't know where you live, so suggestions on how or even the
necessity to return the air back to your shop. Here in sunny SoCal, I just
let it vent to the outside.

I figured this room would be maybe half the size of a 1-car garage,
maybe a little smaller.

I could also frame the rest of that 1-car garage side to be a finishing
room. Is this worth it? Or would it be better to just have a
finishing "area" so I could use that space for something else just in
case? Believe it or not, I'm worried about being able to squeeze into
a 2-car garage, but I guess if the DC and compressor are out of the
way, it would be easy. I guess I could use the finishing room for
assembly and storage also.

If I had the room, I would definitely have a separate finishing room,
complete with a mini spray booth.


Should I paint the floor with something? The bare concrete in my
current garage/shop has been fine. I'm thinking that by painting it
white, it might brighten up the shop. I'm worried about the floor
being too slick when there's sawdust on it though.

Light grey two part epoxy would be my choice if I could not have a hardwood
floor.

Another idea for the floor crossed my mind. The ceilings are going to
be about 10'. I could, in theory, build up the floor by 6" and run
electrical and DC under the floor, even heat. That would certainly
raise some eyebrows I think if anyone saw it with the door open. It
also would prevent me from moving the machines and fitting a car in the
shop for an emergency winter auto repair. It would also make an
unwanted step at the garage door. The thought did cross my mind
though.

10' ceilings are great. I would try to have the electrical and DC in the
floor. I would not raise the floor above grade, I would pour it lower, add
the DC and electrical runs then build it back to grade level.


6" or 4" ductwork?
6" mains - 4" drops to the machines.


I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current place.
What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall with wood
so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about the cost of
that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling? painted
plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

Painted Plywood would be my choice. I hate pegboard. I now only have one
small section 4x4 on one wall and its a pain.

Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?

A/C in the shop? Again I don't know the area you live so its hard to say.
Window A/C units are terribly inefficient but they do cool well. If I had
to have one, I just frame a hole in the wall and stuff one in. If its an
eye sore to the neighbors, put a trellis around it and plant something
there.

I think a ceiling fan would mix up the air and help with heating.
Yep. But you will hit it every day. DAMHIKT

Dave


Sorry for so many questions, thanks.

brian

brianlanning (in
) said:

| I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current
| place. What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall
| with wood so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about
| the cost of that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling?
| painted plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

In my last home (basement) workshop I paneled the walls with car
siding. It wasn't the cheapest solution, but it created an attractive
and relaxing area for woodworking. (And it made the house a _lot_
easier to sell when the time came.)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"brianlanning" wrote in
oups.com:

Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?


Don't know if this will help your situation or not ... but I'll offer
anyway.

We have two standalone (portable) A/C units (one for living room, one
for bedroom). They, in theory, vent through a window, but you could
easily vent through a wall, as well. One's a Maytag (and came from the
Borg), and a I forget what the other brand is.

They are handy, here in the PNW -- where we live, we don't get too many
really hot days, and these are more than enough to knock the heat out of
the house (we're in a bit of forest, the house is 2 stories + daylight
basement). Installing A/C for the whole house would be prohibitively
expensive for too little return.

Best part is you can roll them around to where ever you need them.


--
Regards,

JT
Speaking only for myself....

Window A/C units are terribly inefficient but they do cool well. If I had
to have one, I just frame a hole in the wall and stuff one in

I agree, but I think the inefficiency would be counteracted by the idea
that it would only be used on certain days during the day for only a
couple months out of the year. Framing an opening might be an
interesting idea. I know there will be two separate air conditioners
outside on the side of the house. I may be able to put in the window
A/C next to them, then landscape. I doubt anyone would notice or care
in that case.

brian

Best part is you can roll them around to where ever you need them.

I thought about a contraption where I could open a garage door by about
two feet, then roll the AC up to the opening and vent to the outside
that way, maybe with something cooked up to block the rest of the
opening. It would be nice to roll it out of the way when it's not hot.

brian

"brianlanning" wrote in
oups.com:

I thought about a contraption where I could open a garage door by
about two feet, then roll the AC up to the opening and vent to the
outside that way, maybe with something cooked up to block the rest of
the opening. It would be nice to roll it out of the way when it's not
hot.

brian


We thought about a similar thing before we broke down and bought the
standalone units. Be aware (and you may already know this) -- for the
standard window mount units, you have to tilt the outside edge 'down' to
allow the condensate to drip.

The standalone units have a builtin tray. I think we had to empty ours
every couple of weeks, so it was minimal hassle.

Oh, you'd also mentioned a ceiling fan to circulate the air. We've got
one in the kitchen. It helps quite a lot. It was already there when we
bought the house. It's not something I would have thought to install,
but we are glad it's there ... --
Regards,

JT
Speaking only for myself....

brianlanning wrote:

Window A/C units are terribly inefficient but they do cool well. If I had
to have one, I just frame a hole in the wall and stuff one in


I agree, but I think the inefficiency would be counteracted by the idea
that it would only be used on certain days during the day for only a
couple months out of the year. Framing an opening might be an
interesting idea. I know there will be two separate air conditioners
outside on the side of the house. I may be able to put in the window
A/C next to them, then landscape. I doubt anyone would notice or care
in that case.

brian

I put an a/c through the wall in my shop but did it late in the year so
I've only got to feel it's benefits for a few hot days. I wish I'd
installed one years ago. with a PG&E rebate, the a/c cost a mere $90.
It's a Whirlpool with a remote--got it at Lowe's. I used it on a few 90+
days and it kept the shop comfortable. It's mounted high, near the
ceiling so it's out of the way and cold air falls, so having the cool
air enter the shop near the ceiling works well anyhow.

Dave

Sounds like maybe this is the solution. I'd almost certainly have to
put it near the floor so that I can hide it outside. Maybe I could
cook up some duct-work inside the shop to get it up to the ceiling and
into all those rooms I've been talking about.

brian

In my last home (basement) workshop I paneled the walls with car
siding. It wasn't the cheapest solution, but it created an attractive
and relaxing area for woodworking. (And it made the house a _lot_
easier to sell when the time came.)

What's "car siding"?

TomNie

Oh, you'd also mentioned a ceiling fan to circulate the air. We've got
one in the kitchen. It helps quite a lot. It was already there when we
bought the house. It's not something I would have thought to install,
but we are glad it's there ...

We had them in all the bedrooms out last house. Now we don't have them
(no hookups). We really miss them a lot. Now that were building a new
house, we're putting the hookups in all the bedrooms again. It's the
perfect solution to the air stratification problem.

brian

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting a rare opportunity to make a new shop from scratch. I'll
get all of a three car garage. We'll have a separate barn/outbuilding
for the lawn equipment and bicycles and such. Here's what I've been
thinking:

Let me be the first to say you suck.


A separate subpanel for the equipment, although I'm undecided on the
current. I have a 100amp panel mainly for the extra breaker
positions, but I may only run 60 amps to it. Should I do the whole
100? It's possible although unlikely that I could end up with some
really big machines and maybe even a rotary 3-phase converter.
Although for the time being, I'm not likely to have more than a 5 horse
single phase on any machine.

More is always better. You'll almost certainly never need 100A for a
non-commercial venture, but you sound like you might be planning on some big
toys down the road, so why not just allow for it now? It's always a pain in
the butt to go back and retrofit things.


I'm considering framing a separate room for the dust collector and
compressor. Right now, I have a little PC pancake compressor that can
wake the dead, but I plan on a big 80-gallon compressor when I move up
to hvlp. Should I make a little room for these things or leave them
out in the open? What should I do to sound-proof the room? insulate?
solid core door?

Insulation would be good. Some of the Hi-R rigid insulations might be
better than fiberglass though. You might want to do a little research on
that. I wish my compressor was in a little room. I don't want to waste the
floor space, plus the compressor I have now is a more recent addition than
some of the other things that have been in place for a while - like the
furnace. So - mine just sits on the floor along a wall and I put up with
the noise. As compressors go, it's fairly quite, but a compressor is a
compressor - they make noise.


How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

Can't see why you should need any air return.


I figured this room would be maybe half the size of a 1-car garage,
maybe a little smaller.

That's a lot of room. I'd rethink that. You could probably get by with 6x6
or so.




I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current place.
What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall with wood
so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about the cost of
that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling? painted
plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

I have one bay with all pegboard, and two bays with sheetrock. It's served
me very well.


Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?


Check with an HVAC guy on the AC. If you run it from your house you'll need
to balance the system.

--

-Mike-

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Sounds like maybe this is the solution. I'd almost certainly have to
put it near the floor so that I can hide it outside. Maybe I could
cook up some duct-work inside the shop to get it up to the ceiling and
into all those rooms I've been talking about.


Why do you have to hide it Brian?

--

-Mike-

Why do you have to hide it Brian?

It's a typical tract neighborhood in the People's Republic of Illinois.
There's probably a home owner's association covenant that says no
window air conditioners. I can understand this on something like a top
floor bedroom window on the front of the house. But for the side where
I want it, I wouldn't care at all. That's me though. A neightborhood
we moved out of (partly because of the association) used to put nasty
letters in my mailbox for... wait for it... parking in my driveway. I
suspect I could get away with teh A/C unit. But maybe not. You never
know. If it were next to the other two outdoor A/C units, probably no
one would complain.

brian

Let me be the first to say you suck.

I tried to talk swmbo into letting me use the basement. It's abou
1500sqft. I had plans to put in either a cellar door or a subterranean
door with stairs outside. Maybe a wench so I could lower heavy stuff
easily. She wanted it for storage and a large play room for the kids
though. So she's ok with never parking in the garage. As it turns
out, we can have an outbuilding also as long as it looks like the
house. So I figure we'll put that in to hold all the bikes (with eight
kids, we have about 10 bicycles), snow stuff, and yard stuff, plus
extra mystery storage. That should free the garage of everything not
related to woodworking or auto repair.

I'm getting greedy with space though so I'm looking for ways to
maximize the situation though. I could probably talk her into allowing
the 80-gal compressor in the basement tucked away somewhere quiet. The
DC probably has to stay in the garage to keep the dust out of the
house. I can probably also commandeer a little more space in the
basement without too much trouble. Maybe lumber storage or something.


I tried to get a 4-car garage option, but they don't offer one, lol.

brian

I recently upgraded the service in my shop to100 amp. The cost
difference between 60 and 100 amp wire (which was an 85 ft run in my case)
was about $15, so definitely go 100 amp.
Putting the AC and DC in a seprate room is the way to go. I'd just
frame a few walls and insulate them. May not be sound proof, but i'll
deaden the sound considerably. You'll also need to put a vent in somewhere.
I'd recommend putting one about the same size as the return air vent in your
home. Put it in the door, wall, or wherever is convienient, just as long as
you have one. You'll never completely deaden the sound of those machines,
but just enclosing them will make a HUGE difference, so don't worry to much
about the vent negating the sound barrier. If my shop was three car and not
two, the third bay would definitely house a finishing room.
Have a good one! --dave


"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm getting a rare opportunity to make a new shop from scratch. I'll
get all of a three car garage. We'll have a separate barn/outbuilding
for the lawn equipment and bicycles and such. Here's what I've been
thinking:

A separate subpanel for the equipment, although I'm undecided on the
current. I have a 100amp panel mainly for the extra breaker
positions, but I may only run 60 amps to it. Should I do the whole
100? It's possible although unlikely that I could end up with some
really big machines and maybe even a rotary 3-phase converter.
Although for the time being, I'm not likely to have more than a 5 horse
single phase on any machine.

I'm considering framing a separate room for the dust collector and
compressor. Right now, I have a little PC pancake compressor that can
wake the dead, but I plan on a big 80-gallon compressor when I move up
to hvlp. Should I make a little room for these things or leave them
out in the open? What should I do to sound-proof the room? insulate?
solid core door?

How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

I figured this room would be maybe half the size of a 1-car garage,
maybe a little smaller.

I could also frame the rest of that 1-car garage side to be a finishing
room. Is this worth it? Or would it be better to just have a
finishing "area" so I could use that space for something else just in
case? Believe it or not, I'm worried about being able to squeeze into
a 2-car garage, but I guess if the DC and compressor are out of the
way, it would be easy. I guess I could use the finishing room for
assembly and storage also.

Should I paint the floor with something? The bare concrete in my
current garage/shop has been fine. I'm thinking that by painting it
white, it might brighten up the shop. I'm worried about the floor
being too slick when there's sawdust on it though.

Another idea for the floor crossed my mind. The ceilings are going to
be about 10'. I could, in theory, build up the floor by 6" and run
electrical and DC under the floor, even heat. That would certainly
raise some eyebrows I think if anyone saw it with the door open. It
also would prevent me from moving the machines and fitting a car in the
shop for an emergency winter auto repair. It would also make an
unwanted step at the garage door. The thought did cross my mind
though.

6" or 4" ductwork?

I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current place.
What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall with wood
so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about the cost of
that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling? painted
plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?

I think a ceiling fan would mix up the air and help with heating.

Sorry for so many questions, thanks.

brian

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Let me be the first to say you suck.

I tried to talk swmbo into letting me use the basement. It's abou
1500sqft. I had plans to put in either a cellar door or a subterranean
door with stairs outside. Maybe a wench so I could lower heavy stuff
easily.

Yes!!! That's what every man needs - a wench. I wouldn't get one that was
burley enough to lift heavy things though. Just get a winch for that.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow"

How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

Can't see why you should need any air return.

If the DC is in a closed room then it needs some type of venting whether it
be back to the shop or to the outside. It's nice to be able to do both as
it sometimes gets into the lower temps here in Phoenix and if venting the DC
outside the make up air comes from outside as well. Pulling in
sub-freezing(1) air into the shop is not always a good thing!

Gary

(1) I think one day this season has it been sub-freezing but several days
where the low was in the upper 30'sF

ROFLMAO!

Missed tat when I read it the first time.


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Let me be the first to say you suck.

I tried to talk swmbo into letting me use the basement. It's abou
1500sqft. I had plans to put in either a cellar door or a subterranean
door with stairs outside. Maybe a wench so I could lower heavy stuff
easily.

Yes!!! That's what every man needs - a wench. I wouldn't get one that
was
burley enough to lift heavy things though. Just get a winch for that.

--

-Mike-

snip

Another thought, Brian - I live in SO Calif where it does get a bit hot on
occasion. My shop is my two car garage. Was going to put in a ceiling fan
just to keep the air moving and cool things down a bit but I wound up buying
a Delta Air Purifier instead. I was surprised that the movement of air from
that filter was comparable to a very good ceiling fan, AND I get the filter
factor also. Just a thought.

BTW, did you check with your tract rulers about noise from your shop - also,
if it's a commercial venture - any restrictions on that? Just some other
tract sxxt to worry about.

I HATE homeowner's associations!

Vic

"brianlanning" wrote in message
ups.com...
Why do you have to hide it Brian?

It's a typical tract neighborhood in the People's Republic of Illinois.
There's probably a home owner's association covenant that says no
window air conditioners. I can understand this on something like a top
floor bedroom window on the front of the house. But for the side where
I want it, I wouldn't care at all. That's me though. A neightborhood
we moved out of (partly because of the association) used to put nasty
letters in my mailbox for... wait for it... parking in my driveway. I
suspect I could get away with teh A/C unit. But maybe not. You never
know. If it were next to the other two outdoor A/C units, probably no
one would complain.

brian


I lived in a subdivision that gave fines for leaving the garage door opened
for more than 10 minutes at a time. I was thrilled to move out.

Tom Nie (in ) said:

|| In my last home (basement) workshop I paneled the walls with car
|| siding. It wasn't the cheapest solution, but it created an
|| attractive and relaxing area for woodworking. (And it made the
|| house a _lot_ easier to sell when the time came.)
|
| What's "car siding"?

[ Sorry - I unintentionally responded directly with this explanation.
I meant to post here for group review. ]

Car siding is either 4" or 6" (nominal) tongue and groove with a face
bevel at both sides. The six-inch width often has a center V-groove.
Think "knotty pine". When well-sanded and wiped a couple of times with
boiled linseed oil it takes on a warm light-honey glow.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

We were in that neighborhood for five years while the builder
controlled the association. The builder wouldn't do anything about
people parking in the driveway, so this jackass would just leave people
nasty letters. Can anyone guess who became the association president
when the builder finished the neighborhood? The day he became
president, he walked around housed, and looked in windows, with a
clipboard taking notes about things he wanted fixed on other people's
houses.

We're still good friends with our old neighbors from that place. We
keep wondering when they'll have enough and move. The lastest one
really shocked us. If you want to paint your house, this includes the
interior, and say it costs $5000. You have to have $5000 and give it
to the association so they can put it in an escrow account. Then you
have to have another $5000 to actually paint your house. If, after the
fact, they decided that they don't like the paint job, they use your
other $5000 to repaint your house against your will.

brian

brianlanning wrote:

We're still good friends with our old neighbors from that place. We
keep wondering when they'll have enough and move. The lastest one
really shocked us. If you want to paint your house, this includes the
interior, and say it costs $5000. You have to have $5000 and give it
to the association so they can put it in an escrow account. Then you
have to have another $5000 to actually paint your house. If, after the
fact, they decided that they don't like the paint job, they use your
other $5000 to repaint your house against your will.

That being the case I suppose he'd get really ****y if you let loose a
couple from a Glock 23 or a Ruger PC-4, eh?

OTOH, if one of those "board bullies" were to "slip, fall and injure
himself" by running into a phantom on one of his "appointed rounds" that
sort of crap might stop.

I was surprised that the movement of air from
that filter was comparable to a very good ceiling fan, AND I get the filter
factor also.

johnny carson
I did not know that.
/johnny carson

BTW, did you check with your tract rulers about noise from your shop - also,
if it's a commercial venture - any restrictions on that? Just some other
tract sxxt to worry about.

Even in the last neighborhood which was orwellian, no one ever
complained about that noise, even with the garage door open. I doubt
it will be an issue. I like to play music sometimes though so I
usually keep the door closed for that.

brian

[ Sorry - I unintentionally responded directly with this explanation.
I meant to post here for group review. ]

Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Not a problem and thanks for the reply.
TomNie

"brianlanning" wrote in message
oups.com...
We were in that neighborhood for five years while the builder
controlled the association. The builder wouldn't do anything about
people parking in the driveway, so this jackass would just leave people
nasty letters. Can anyone guess who became the association president
when the builder finished the neighborhood? The day he became
president, he walked around housed, and looked in windows, with a
clipboard taking notes about things he wanted fixed on other people's
houses.

We're still good friends with our old neighbors from that place. We
keep wondering when they'll have enough and move. The lastest one
really shocked us. If you want to paint your house, this includes the
interior, and say it costs $5000. You have to have $5000 and give it
to the association so they can put it in an escrow account. Then you
have to have another $5000 to actually paint your house. If, after the
fact, they decided that they don't like the paint job, they use your
other $5000 to repaint your house against your will.


Oh man - this stuff makes my head hurt when I read it. I've heard of other
ridiculous stuff from homeowner's associations in the past. Whenever I hear
this stuff I can't help but wonder why people even sign up for this kind of
crap in the first place. It seems that I've heard more people like Brian,
who had to live under these stupid rules and who finally got disgusted
enough and left, than I have ever heard of people supporting this
foolishness. My place is neat and orderly, but it is my place, and I do as
I wish on my property. I can't imagine being subjected to a homeowner's
association.

--

-Mike-

brianlanning wrote:
I'm getting a rare opportunity to make a new shop from scratch. I'll
get all of a three car garage. We'll have a separate barn/outbuilding
for the lawn equipment and bicycles and such. Here's what I've been
thinking:

A separate subpanel for the equipment, although I'm undecided on the
current. I have a 100amp panel mainly for the extra breaker
positions, but I may only run 60 amps to it. Should I do the whole
100? It's possible although unlikely that I could end up with some
really big machines and maybe even a rotary 3-phase converter.
Although for the time being, I'm not likely to have more than a 5 horse
single phase on any machine.

100 Amp is probably OK since you are just 1 person and the most you will
probably have on at the same time is a DC, air filter, lights, fan or
AC, plus the machine you are using. A multi-person shop with multiple
machines running at the same time might need more.

I'm considering framing a separate room for the dust collector and
compressor. Right now, I have a little PC pancake compressor that can
wake the dead, but I plan on a big 80-gallon compressor when I move up
to hvlp. Should I make a little room for these things or leave them
out in the open? What should I do to sound-proof the room? insulate?
solid core door?

An idea I've mulled over myself, but haven't executed on save for
installing a couple of 220 outside outlets when I originally wired up
the shop.

How would this room affect the dust collector? wouldn't I need some
sort of air return between this little room and the rest of the garage
defeating the sound isolation? Maybe this would help the air quality
keeping the fine stuff that gets past the DC in that room and not ni
teh rest of the garage?

I figured this room would be maybe half the size of a 1-car garage,
maybe a little smaller.

If you aren't heating or airconditioning the shop, venting to the
outside would be an option, depending on how much dust you generate and
where it is venting to.

A return through the wall between them with filtration would also work.
Here's a thought, how about mounting an air filtration unit in the wall
between the 2? That way the filtration unit would definitely get the
fine dust, right at the source.


I could also frame the rest of that 1-car garage side to be a finishing
room. Is this worth it? Or would it be better to just have a
finishing "area" so I could use that space for something else just in
case? Believe it or not, I'm worried about being able to squeeze into
a 2-car garage, but I guess if the DC and compressor are out of the
way, it would be easy. I guess I could use the finishing room for
assembly and storage also.

Should I paint the floor with something? The bare concrete in my
current garage/shop has been fine. I'm thinking that by painting it
white, it might brighten up the shop. I'm worried about the floor
being too slick when there's sawdust on it though.

Another idea for the floor crossed my mind. The ceilings are going to
be about 10'. I could, in theory, build up the floor by 6" and run
electrical and DC under the floor, even heat. That would certainly
raise some eyebrows I think if anyone saw it with the door open. It
also would prevent me from moving the machines and fitting a car in the
shop for an emergency winter auto repair. It would also make an
unwanted step at the garage door. The thought did cross my mind
though.

6" or 4" ductwork?

6", at least for the main lines. Also on branches that have a big
machine that's set up for, and needs, a bigger duct (eg 20" planer).

I plan to insulate which made a huge difference in the current place.
What should I put on the walls? I'd like to cover the wall with wood
so I can screw stuff in anywhere, but I'm worried about the cost of
that. What do you guys use? pegboard? t&g paneling? painted
plywood? osb? I hate drywall so I'd like to avoid that.

I hate drywalling too, as well as trying to mount anything to it. I used
1/2" OSB on walls and ceiling. After hanging the 1/2" on the ceiling
though (heavy), I wonder if 3/8" wouldn't have been a better choice for
overhead.

I did mount a 4' x 8' sheet of pegboard horizontally on 2 walls in place
of the OSB. Since my walls are insulated, I put a heavy sheet of black
plastic (can't spell vis-queen?) behind it to keep the insulation dust
in the wall.

Heating should be an easy problem to solve, but what about A/C? I
can't use a window A/C since there's no window, and I'd likely end up
with a lynch-mob in the tract neighborhood. Any creative ideas for
using a window A/C without a window, venting out the garage door
somehow? Maybe run a duct from the house A/C?

I have a window unit for heat and AC. I just stuck it in a window
because it was quick. I plan on remounting it through the wall to get
back the light eventually.

I think a ceiling fan would mix up the air and help with heating.

Ceiling fan works great in my shop, but make sure you put it somewhere
where you won't be swingung a board into it.

Sorry for so many questions, thanks.

brian



--
Remove BOB to email me

It really depends on the neighborhood, who lives in it, how much money
most of the people have, and whether or not you have a giant asshole
down the street. Usually, as the builder finishes up, you can look
around and see who the biggest jerk is. That will be the association
president. This type is often a control-freak who has no control in
their career. They have no life, no personality, no hobbies. They're
generally very unhappy people.

One little fact I've left out of the discussion so far is that this was
a golf course neighborhood. That had the affect of making wealthy
people live there. That's not what we were though. Most of the houses
were well over $1mil, but in our little corner, they were a more
reasonable price, mostly in the $300s. (this may freak some people out,
but it's very average for the chicago area) A lot of people in our
little corner were sort of wealthy wanna-bes. There were also a lot of
what we call "lawn people". People who obsess over their lawns,
spending huge amounts of money and time on landscaping. We have eight
kids. We're nothing like that. We keep it nice. But I don't care if
my front yard doesn't look like the 18th hole.

So the houses sort of divided into two groups. The people with large
families and the empty-nesters. The empty-nesters hated us and it
showed. I believe the parking in the driveway thing had more to do
with what we were driving than the fact that it was in the driveway.
We had a new suburban and a new vw passat. The people who were
complaining were bmw/mercedes/cadillac types.

We're renting a house now and building a new one in the same
neighborhood. I've gone drinking with the current association
president who seems like a nice guy. The people this time around
aren't so snooty as the last neighborhood. It can always go south, but
I think it will be better this time.

brian

Put the compressor and the duct collector/cyclone
in a little room. Ply both the inside and outside
of the walls - after filling the space between the
studs with old rugs, sheet rock pieces or whatever.
Mass stops sound. And go with a solid core door -
with weather stripping. The resulting semi-
sound proof room will also be fairly air tight
so you'll need to get air in AND out from some
where other than the inside of the shop. Run
an air intake into the space from outside - low
on the wall, and another into the attic with
a a flapper valve Put hardware cloth over
the air intake - keeps critters out of the shop.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/DustCollector.html

Oh - and BEFORE you fill the space between
the studs - cut the holes for your DC piping
and at least two holes for compressor lines.
Will save yourself a lot of grief - DAMHIKT.

charlie b

charlie b wrote:
Put the compressor and the duct collector/cyclone
in a little room. Ply both the inside and outside
of the walls - after filling the space between the
studs with old rugs, sheet rock pieces or whatever.
Mass stops sound.

That may not be the best bet if there are air gaps between the filler
bits. You might consider insulating the walls themselves, then using
mass-loading on the panels. You can buy prefab panels, or adhesive
mats, or other stuff. Just google on soundproofing walls.

Chris

A multi-person shop with multiple
machines running at the same time might need more.

The only thing I can think of is if one of my kids got majorly into
woodworking. All three of the girls (oldest kids) expressed an
interest but I won't let them use any of the machines yet. I'm having
a belt/disk sander delivered tomorrow with plans for two other sanding
machines. I think I'd let them use those in addition to the scroll
saw. In those cases, I could see two machines running at once. I
think a bigger liklihood is a rotary phase converter with a 24"
northfield 3-phase jointer I plan on getting at auction for $100. :-)

how about mounting an air filtration unit in the wall
between the 2?

Like what? I was thinking my only real practical option was an A/C
furnace filter over an opening near the ceiling. Maybe with a plywood
board covering the filter, but on stand-offs maybe 3" from the filter.
It would let the air out, but hopefully reflect sound back into the DC
room. Were you talking about some sort of electrostatic device or
other machine?

I wonder if 3/8" wouldn't have been a better choice for
overhead.

Based on the design of the house, and considering I'm currently living
in a different model from the same builder, I'd be surprised if there
wasn't drywall already on the ceiling and on the walls facing the
house.


Ceiling fan works great in my shop, but make sure you put it somewhere
where you won't be swingung a board into it.

It's a 10' ceiling in the garage, and the lights will probably hang
lower than the fan anyway so that the fan blades don't case shadows.

I've been talking with swmbo about the situation. She's agreed to put
the compressor in the basement when it eventually arrives. She seems
ok with the framed opening for the window A/C also. Maybe an A/C with
a built in heater solves that problem also.

brian

Thanks for the input. I guess it would be better to put something
other than plain old insulation in the walls around the DC and
compressor. I'm not sure where I could get old rugs from though.
Gravel might be a good idea. I wonder how much of this is overkill
though. If I can get 90% of the way there with just osb on both sides
of the studs, I have to wonder whether that would be enough. It looks
like I'm going to have to have an air return in the wall or something.


Maybe the air return back into the shop could be a muffler from a large
deisel truck. I think it would have to be tuned for whatever noise the
two machines made though. It would be interesting to cook up some sort
of muffler type device out of plywood that would cancel the sound
waves, but still let enough air through.

Intakes or venting to the outside is probably out of the question since
heating is a major concern.

brian

brianlanning wrote:
A multi-person shop with multiple
machines running at the same time might need more.


The only thing I can think of is if one of my kids got majorly into
woodworking. All three of the girls (oldest kids) expressed an
interest but I won't let them use any of the machines yet. I'm having
a belt/disk sander delivered tomorrow with plans for two other sanding
machines. I think I'd let them use those in addition to the scroll
saw. In those cases, I could see two machines running at once. I
think a bigger liklihood is a rotary phase converter with a 24"
northfield 3-phase jointer I plan on getting at auction for $100. :-)


how about mounting an air filtration unit in the wall
between the 2?


Like what? I was thinking my only real practical option was an A/C
furnace filter over an opening near the ceiling. Maybe with a plywood
board covering the filter, but on stand-offs maybe 3" from the filter.
It would let the air out, but hopefully reflect sound back into the DC
room. Were you talking about some sort of electrostatic device or
other machine?

I was actually thinking about something like the Jet AFS 1000 air
filtration unit I have mounted on the ceiling to filter the shop air.
But, it would have to match or beat the airflow of the DC. However, I
just did a little more investigation and my DC is 1550 CFM and the Jet
is 1000, so no dice, for me anyway. I'd need a bigger filtration unit or
2 of them. Maybe though, go with your idea and just use the same filters
the Jet uses (they are a 5 micron followed by a 1 micron). Should work
better than AC filters.


I wonder if 3/8" wouldn't have been a better choice for
overhead.


Based on the design of the house, and considering I'm currently living
in a different model from the same builder, I'd be surprised if there
wasn't drywall already on the ceiling and on the walls facing the
house.



Ceiling fan works great in my shop, but make sure you put it somewhere
where you won't be swingung a board into it.


It's a 10' ceiling in the garage, and the lights will probably hang
lower than the fan anyway so that the fan blades don't case shadows.

I've been talking with swmbo about the situation. She's agreed to put
the compressor in the basement when it eventually arrives. She seems
ok with the framed opening for the window A/C also. Maybe an A/C with
a built in heater solves that problem also.

brian



--
Remove BOB to email me

If you orient it the right way, you may not need the motor at all,
right? If the DC is running, the air will want to leave the sealed
room. And if you give it a convenient path through the air cleaner, it
should go that way.

I'd cook something up with filters that you can wash out. Or, they
make electrostatic air cleaners for furnaces. I wonder if they'd be up
to the task. Furnaces move a lot of air.


brian