Seriously planning an expansion to my shop but left with a difficult
decision.

Original shop is 16' x 24' and is attached to the back of a 20' x 20'
detached carport. both are gable end roof with the shop perpendicular
to the carport. Plan is to put a 20' x20' shop expansion on the other
end of the shop matching the roof line of the carport. End up with
two 20' x 20' structures tied together by the 16' x 24' original shop,
flush on one side, 4' indention on the other.

However, when I built the original shop it was on a sloping section of
the lot and the far corner finish floor elevation is only about 3"
above grade. Shooting the grade for the expansion, I find if I flush
the floors, new and old, the slope will put the far end of the new
shop about 4" below grade.

Choices seem to be:

Do it flush and grade the property to drain properly and give me an
appropriate finish floor elevation above grade. However the down side
is that in order grade away from the shop I will have to cut down
several mature trees or seriously disturb their root systems. Trees
that will offer significant shade to the shop when finished.

Make the new section a step up of 6" and minimize any contouring of
the property, leave the trees.

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

I'd bet you'll curse that 6" step at least once a week. Every time you have
to move material, maybe move a tool, it will be a PITA to go up or down it.
I'd try to avoid it if at all possible.

Besides, when you get a forklift truck you'll have to put in a ramp (but
a ramp may be a good solution anyway).

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:35:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

I'd bet you'll curse that 6" step at least once a week. Every time you have
to move material, maybe move a tool, it will be a PITA to go up or down it.
I'd try to avoid it if at all possible.

You've got a valid point. Assembly/glue up table will be in the new
section, along with planer (by the largest entry door) and shapers,
sanders, and maybe a swing out from the back wall paint booth. Table
saw, jointer, RAS, and band saws in the old section. Would be nice to
use a push cart to move cut parts to the assembly area. And I've
consider a ramp.

But I sure do like those trees. Without AC, in Mississippi where it's
bad hot, I currently stay cool in the heat of the summer, until about
4:30 in the afternoon. I'm shaded from three sides.

I've considered a perimeter french drain of sorts, but feel like it
will fail and flood at some point.

Besides, when you get a forklift truck you'll have to put in a ramp (but
a ramp may be a good solution anyway).

I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:00:44 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:



Seriously planning an expansion to my shop but left with a difficult
decision.

Original shop is 16' x 24' and is attached to the back of a 20' x 20'
detached carport. both are gable end roof with the shop perpendicular
to the carport. Plan is to put a 20' x20' shop expansion on the other
end of the shop matching the roof line of the carport. End up with
two 20' x 20' structures tied together by the 16' x 24' original shop,
flush on one side, 4' indention on the other.

However, when I built the original shop it was on a sloping section of
the lot and the far corner finish floor elevation is only about 3"
above grade. Shooting the grade for the expansion, I find if I flush
the floors, new and old, the slope will put the far end of the new
shop about 4" below grade.

Choices seem to be:

Do it flush and grade the property to drain properly and give me an
appropriate finish floor elevation above grade. However the down side
is that in order grade away from the shop I will have to cut down
several mature trees or seriously disturb their root systems. Trees
that will offer significant shade to the shop when finished.

Make the new section a step up of 6" and minimize any contouring of
the property, leave the trees.

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

Frank

Bill wrote in
:

I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill

I remember all the stories about Frank cleaning up after the floods with
the hurricane a couple of years ago. I wouldn't trust a knee wall, no
matter how much rubber it had on it.

But I would keep those trees. The ramp for the floor is the way I'd go.
So many woodworkers have basement steps to deal with, that the 6" is pretty
minor.

A double garage is what I have to deal with. Pretty nice really. But the
cars get moved out of the driveway when the tablesaw gets going on large
pieces, because the outfeed table swings up and out the overhead door.

There are no perfect shops. Why, though, would you want to give up trees
that won't grow back in your working lifetime?

Patriarch,
in northern California...

Just think about the floors space that a ramp would consume in the old
shop. Are you going to be tripping over it forever?

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------

Patriarch wrote:

Bill wrote in
:


I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill


I remember all the stories about Frank cleaning up after the floods with
the hurricane a couple of years ago. I wouldn't trust a knee wall, no
matter how much rubber it had on it.

But I would keep those trees. The ramp for the floor is the way I'd go.
So many woodworkers have basement steps to deal with, that the 6" is pretty
minor.

A double garage is what I have to deal with. Pretty nice really. But the
cars get moved out of the driveway when the tablesaw gets going on large
pieces, because the outfeed table swings up and out the overhead door.

There are no perfect shops. Why, though, would you want to give up trees
that won't grow back in your working lifetime?

Patriarch,
in northern California...

How about build above grade to ward off drainage problems and raise the
existing floor with 2x6's and put down a plywood floor on both.

On Jun 4, 9:09 pm, "Leon" wrote:
How about build above grade to ward off drainage problems and raise the
existing floor with 2x6's and put down a plywood floor on both.

Took the words right out of my mouth...ermm..fingers.....keyboard.

I'd vote for the knee wall with some modifications:

Extend the waterproofed concrete at least a foot above the grade, so that
if water does run down the grade and sits against the wall, it will have to
go uphill to go over the wall.

Put in gravel and drain tile (plastic) on the outside of the wall, about 8"
below the floor line, so that any free moisture will run into the gravel and
tile a LOT easier than through a concrete wall and into the shop. Hopefully
you can run the tile to daylight and not need a pump.

To be on the safe side, don't store any lumber on the floor in that area.

A ramp or a step will be a constant PITA.

And you WILL forever regret taking down the trees.

Advice is guaranteed. You must be satisfied, or all fees cheerfully
refunded.

Old Guy


"Bill" wrote in message
...
I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:00:44 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:



Seriously planning an expansion to my shop but left with a difficult
decision.

Original shop is 16' x 24' and is attached to the back of a 20' x 20'
detached carport. both are gable end roof with the shop perpendicular
to the carport. Plan is to put a 20' x20' shop expansion on the other
end of the shop matching the roof line of the carport. End up with
two 20' x 20' structures tied together by the 16' x 24' original shop,
flush on one side, 4' indention on the other.

However, when I built the original shop it was on a sloping section of
the lot and the far corner finish floor elevation is only about 3"
above grade. Shooting the grade for the expansion, I find if I flush
the floors, new and old, the slope will put the far end of the new
shop about 4" below grade.

Choices seem to be:

Do it flush and grade the property to drain properly and give me an
appropriate finish floor elevation above grade. However the down side
is that in order grade away from the shop I will have to cut down
several mature trees or seriously disturb their root systems. Trees
that will offer significant shade to the shop when finished.

Make the new section a step up of 6" and minimize any contouring of
the property, leave the trees.

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

Keep the trees, build above grade (resist any temptation to not do so) and
either raise the old floor, or deal with the step. The trade-off for the
increased shop space would be worth the inconvenience even if you decide not
to match the finish floor heights.

Just my tuppence...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Patriarch" wrote in message
36...
Bill wrote in
:

I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill

I remember all the stories about Frank cleaning up after the floods with
the hurricane a couple of years ago. I wouldn't trust a knee wall, no
matter how much rubber it had on it.


How is that different than a 6"-deep basement? Keeping water out of a
basemnt can be tricky after the fact, but proactively (proper grading,
dainage and a membrane) it should not be a problem at all.

-Steve



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:00:44 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:



Thanks, good ideas everyone, several I hadn't considered. Still
leaning toward elevating the finish floor and having the step.

Leon and Rob's idea of building up the original to match is a good
possibility. I can build the new section six inches up, see if the
step becomes something I can't live with, and if so, go back and do
that later. I lose some ceiling height, but the ceiling is vaulted
anyway so it only matters at the sidewalls. I'm going to lose it in
the new section anyway, because I want the roof elevation at peak to
match the existing carport section.

And that wood floor may turn out to be just the ticket for these old
and getting older, knees and back.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

And that wood floor may turn out to be just the ticket for these old
and getting older, knees and back.

Not to mention all the space for under floor duct work, cable runs.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

A very common condition on a lot of sailboats.

After a while, you get used to it.G

As others have suggested, keep things above grade, if you want to keep
life simple.



Lew

speaking of getting used to it, you can get used to hanging too if you
hang long enough.
ross
www.highislandexport.com

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 17:38:09 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

A very common condition on a lot of sailboats.

I sail, so I know, however, I've never tried to roll a cart of jointed
boards through the sailboat and out the companionway hatch.

After a while, you get used to it.G

As others have suggested, keep things above grade, if you want to keep
life simple.


Looks like that's the ticket.


Lew

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:32:18 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:00:44 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:



Thanks, good ideas everyone, several I hadn't considered. Still
leaning toward elevating the finish floor and having the step.

Leon and Rob's idea of building up the original to match is a good
possibility. I can build the new section six inches up, see if the
step becomes something I can't live with, and if so, go back and do
that later. I lose some ceiling height, but the ceiling is vaulted
anyway so it only matters at the sidewalls. I'm going to lose it in
the new section anyway, because I want the roof elevation at peak to
match the existing carport section.

And that wood floor may turn out to be just the ticket for these old
and getting older, knees and back.

Frank


As far as building below grade goes, my shop is in a basement and the
ONLY water problem I've had in over 16 years was from a busted washer
hose.

The Basement wall is poured concrete with a waterproofing coating and
drainboard leading to a 4" subdrain and I've never even had damp
walls.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill



My choice too! You are only talking 4 inches below grade, not 4 feet! I
would still do a knee wall even if it was four feet! You will not notice
anydifferance from the old to the new shop in reguards to humidity due to a
one or two foot tall knee wall. Install the french drain low, at the
footing, apply water proofing, and backfill with pea rock, and you will have
no problems. Try slope the landscape away from the building as you would do
normally.
Many of us are basement dwellers to some extent. If done properly you will
not have any water problems at all.
Greg

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:32:18 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

Thanks, good ideas everyone, several I hadn't considered. Still
leaning toward elevating the finish floor and having the step.

And you could build a removable ramp for your cart.


Mike O.

"Greg O" wrote in message
...

My choice too! You are only talking 4 inches below grade, not 4 feet! I
would still do a knee wall even if it was four feet!


Something else to consider however and concerning the comment about Franks
endeavor with Katrina, 4 inches below grade is not much, true. In some
areas along the coast and in Houston often 4 feet above grade is some times
not enough to keep water out. Building below grade in flood prone areas is
risky.

On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 21:40:14 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
I think I'd just let the far end run below grade, build and waterproof
a short "knee" wall and install a french drain along the wall where
the slab is below grade.

This procedure is used everywhere I've been, and as long as the wall
is well waterproofed, you should'nt have any problems.

My $.02 worth
Bill



My choice too! You are only talking 4 inches below grade, not 4 feet! I
would still do a knee wall even if it was four feet! You will not notice
anydifferance from the old to the new shop in reguards to humidity due to a
one or two foot tall knee wall. Install the french drain low, at the
footing, apply water proofing, and backfill with pea rock, and you will have
no problems. Try slope the landscape away from the building as you would do
normally.
Many of us are basement dwellers to some extent. If done properly you will
not have any water problems at all.
Greg


I didn't consider this as one of the options because in the new
section will be a drive in door, 9' or 10' wide. Don't want to deal
with what would be necessary to incorporate that into a below grade
monolithic slab. Would at least have to pour a ramp down from the
curbwall.

My flooding problems with Katrina occurred with equipment that was
stored in Biloxi, MS. This shop is in Tupelo, MS, so I'm not really
worried about the hurricane tidal impact, just normal rains, which
can be heavy and flooding.

Thanks for the input, I think I'm going with the step up and
potentially raising the existing floor if the step bothers me too
much. This is also probably the least cost option.

Frank

I would try very hard to avoid a step into the shop. I had to make
that decision when I built mine and have not regretted keeping it the
same level as the garage - machines, my mill etc can be rolled in and
out. I would also try very hard to make sure the ceiling is at least
8-1/2 feet high (more is better) so that you can work with 8'
without having to do strange things. Also, consider putting wall
outlets
4-1/2 feet up from the floor so you can lean sheets of "stuff" against
the walls and still get to the outlets.

mikey

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


Seriously planning an expansion to my shop but left with a difficult
decision.

Original shop is 16' x 24' and is attached to the back of a 20' x 20'
detached carport. both are gable end roof with the shop perpendicular
to the carport. Plan is to put a 20' x20' shop expansion on the other
end of the shop matching the roof line of the carport. End up with
two 20' x 20' structures tied together by the 16' x 24' original shop,
flush on one side, 4' indention on the other.

However, when I built the original shop it was on a sloping section of
the lot and the far corner finish floor elevation is only about 3"
above grade. Shooting the grade for the expansion, I find if I flush
the floors, new and old, the slope will put the far end of the new
shop about 4" below grade.

Choices seem to be:

Do it flush and grade the property to drain properly and give me an
appropriate finish floor elevation above grade. However the down side
is that in order grade away from the shop I will have to cut down
several mature trees or seriously disturb their root systems. Trees
that will offer significant shade to the shop when finished.

Make the new section a step up of 6" and minimize any contouring of
the property, leave the trees.

Leaning toward number two, however, not sure If the step up will not
be a constant source of irritation. Anyone have a similar situation,
that is, living with a step up between shop sections?

Frank