Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

lucky4fingers wrote:
| Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage.
| Natural Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy.
| Any good electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
| TIA

Vertical passive solar heating panels on/in south wall (possibly with
additional panels on east wall for extra morning heat and/or west wall
for extra afternoon heat) can do the job with no fuel cost.

You can estimate the possibilities for your location at:
www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SolarEnergy.html

and take a look at panel type choices at
www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html

or follow the link below to see how I build 'em.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/collectors.html

"lucky4fingers" wrote in message
84...
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

What temperatures do you see? Is it insulated? Attached or detached
garage?

There are many good electric heater. Figure 1500 watts equals 5200 Btu. I
can't get enough heat from a 30,000 Btu propane heater on a really cold day
so figure at least 6 space heaters or 9,000 Watts or a 50 amp 240 volt
service to achieve that and 50¢ per hour operating cost where I live. Still
interested in electric?

"lucky4fingers" wrote in message
84...
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

A bit more info would help, size of garage, insulated or not, what part of
the country, dollar limit, local electric rates.
Electricity is generally very expensive, some areas get a break though. If
you are willing to spend some $$ you can buy a Modine Hot Dawg that runs on
propane and vents the exhaust out side. Fairly quiet, just a blower fan is
all you will hear. Cost to install varies with the size of heater, but if
you are at all handy you may be able to install it yourself. Price for a
self install, smaller unit, maybe $750-$1000.
http://hot-dawg.modine.com/
Greg

For $285.00 I just installed a 5-15,000KW electric central heating
system including two vents, flex ducting, digital thermostat, return air
grill/filter and cables. Picked up a used central a/c unit with three
strip electric heating for $100.00 in the Free ads of our newspaper.
Removed the a/c A coil leaving three heating strips but only using one
for 5,000 KW of heat installed the unit in the shop attic and it works great

lucky4fingers wrote in
84:

Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage.
Natural Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any
good electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

Insulate, insulate, insulate. The first rule of warmth is to let not the
warmth out!

We've an uninsulated two car garage that's attached to the house. It
gets down to about 50 at times, with two heaters (1500W and 1000W) going
and the door to the house open. Fine for a car storage location, but
terrible for any real use.

When we move (probably sometime in the near future) I'm going to
recommend that the owners of the house take advantage of it being empty
and insulate the garage. The walls have what looks to be 1/8" plywood
covering the studs, so it should be easily cost effective to insulate the
garage.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

like someone said insulate. then try a propane infrared heater 15 to 25
thousand btu's. this worked in my insulated two car garage in the balitmore
area when the temps were in the teens it was 72 inside (takes about 15
minute to get there with the 15,000 btu heater) cost is low


len

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:17:23 GMT, lucky4fingers
wrote:

Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

A quick trip to the local hardware store will turn up any number of
propane heaters that will do the job with minimal noise. Take a look
at the vertical type that mount near or on a wall, and have some sort
of venting.

Unless your electricity is really, really cheap- then, I like the
quartz heaters. They put out a lot of heat for their size. Avoid the
ones that have an element that looks like it came out of a toaster
with a fan behind them- they're all but useless, and kind of a fire
hazard to boot. The oil-filled ones that look like radiators are
marginally okay, but you have to leave them on at all times if you
want it to be very useful- they take a long time to heat an area.

For my buck, propane or natural gas forced air is the way to go- it
does not need to be a jet-style heater to get you a lot of heat for a
minimal operating cost, and they'll heat up a shop a lot more quickly
than any electric.

Hey Morris did you see the show on the History channel last night?
They showed this giant mirror array similar to the 'engine' you posted
recently.

They were running a pipe filled with oil through the focal point (?) to
boil water I think. Pretty neat.

Overall the show was pretty good but they didn't mention any drawbacks
for the stuff. Most notable to me was the Prius and how great it is
with no mention of the environmental impact of all the batteries.

Ray
future Sierra Club member?

RayV wrote:
| Hey Morris did you see the show on the History channel last night?
| They showed this giant mirror array similar to the 'engine' you
| posted recently.

Don't have cable, but am familiar with heliostats (what you
described). BTW, the high temperatures weren't healthy for the PVC we
were working with - so we're gravitating back toward flat panel
collectors. For the same footprint (shadow?) a flat panel will deliver
the same amount of heat energy - but at a more useful temperature.

| They were running a pipe filled with oil through the focal point
| (?) to boil water I think. Pretty neat.

It is neat - but can produce dangerously high temperatures and
pressures.

| Overall the show was pretty good but they didn't mention any
| drawbacks for the stuff. Most notable to me was the Prius and how
| great it is with no mention of the environmental impact of all the
| batteries.

The drawbacks - and the advantages - depend on the application. Most
of the people trying to solve the problems haven't yet managed to
absorb the notion that we need to develop technologies that provide
non-consumptive (no fuel) and non-poisonous (no toxic byproducts)
solutions. They're finding the paradigm shift difficult...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"Prometheus" wrote in message

For my buck, propane or natural gas forced air is the way to go- it
does not need to be a jet-style heater to get you a lot of heat for a
minimal operating cost, and they'll heat up a shop a lot more quickly
than any electric.

Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter
than I've been in years!

If I'm going to get any work done in the shop this winter I guess I'm gonna
have to do something related, even it's only temporary.

H2O being a by-product of combustion, do you have a problem with an increase
in humidity causing rust using the propane heaters?

What specific brand/type of propane heater do you recommend?

(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that way!)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/06/07

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
If I'm going to get any work done in the shop this winter I guess I'm
gonna
have to do something related, even it's only temporary.

H2O being a by-product of combustion, do you have a problem with an
increase
in humidity causing rust using the propane heaters?

What specific brand/type of propane heater do you recommend?

(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that
way!)

FWIW, I bought one of those double-headed propane heaters what you clamp
to your portable propane tank. You do have to maintain "space" around it
but it do get way hot. In fact, I'm here to tell you that it (the rear
surface in this instance) will instantly melt human skin! Surprisingly
painlessly.

--
Dave in Houston

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:18:52 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Prometheus" wrote in message

For my buck, propane or natural gas forced air is the way to go- it
does not need to be a jet-style heater to get you a lot of heat for a
minimal operating cost, and they'll heat up a shop a lot more quickly
than any electric.

Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter
than I've been in years!

If I'm going to get any work done in the shop this winter I guess I'm gonna
have to do something related, even it's only temporary.

H2O being a by-product of combustion, do you have a problem with an increase
in humidity causing rust using the propane heaters?

What specific brand/type of propane heater do you recommend?

(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that way!)


I use one of those single propane radiant heaters that clamp to a
bottle. I believe it is a 16,000 BTU unit. It provides enough heat
for my well insulated 16' X 24' shop. Two swinging four foot doors in
the back close off with enough cracks to provide make up combustion
air.

In north Mississippi, I rarely have it on for over about an hour first
thing in the morning, then turn it off and the shop will stay
comfortable for the rest of the day, at least until the sun goes down.
On very cold, cloudy days may have to relight it a couple of times
during the day.

Feel the humidity when it has been on for a while, but no worse
(corrosion) than mid summer when the RH is about 95% . I've never had
it sweat the windows.

Down side is there is very little turn down, i. e. it is mostly wide
open or off. And better have two tanks, seems like on the coldest day
when the propane fill company closed, I would run out. And you have
to keep a little space around it to avoid burning you or catching
combustibles on fire.

Where you are you probably wouldn't go through a 20lb. tank a year if
you are insulated.

investment: Heater about $50 I think and another $50 for a couple of
tanks if you don't have them.

Frank

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:18:52 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter
than I've been in years!

And Southern Illinois has been warmer than normal, proportional
control swings, looks just like a ring wave.

Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618

On Jan 25, 8:18 am, "Swingman" wrote:
Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this
winter
than I've been in years!

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/s2772.htm

Should bring up an article on NOAA website about 2006 being the warmest
year ever since they began keeping records in 1895.

Most relevant is this fact: "The past nine years have all been among
the 25 warmest years on record for the contiguous U.S., a streak which
is unprecedented in the historical record."

And despite your perception about Texas being the coldest winter in
years, the article also has this fact: "Five states had their warmest
December on record (Minnesota, New York, Connecticut, Vermont, New
Hampshire) and no state was colder than average in December." A cold
spell hit my state in January. But it feels colder than it really is
because of the very warm December. January is still a bit warmer than
average even though we are in the 20s and teens. Hard to believe when
its 20 degrees and the NW wind is blowing 20mph but its still warmer
than average January weather. I have a relative in Dallas and they
received ice and snow recently. But he was also talking about going
for a bike ride on the weekend when it was going to be in the 50s. I
have a hard time reconciling temps in the 50s with winter.

On Jan 24, 9:17 pm, lucky4fingers wrote:
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

I'm going to be looking at the same thing. NH seacoast, 20x20 garage
that will be insulated. I saw one of those gray box things heating a
clothing store I was in the other day, thought I could use that, but I
don't know what to look for, I should have grabbed the name. Anyway,
it was a square about 3x3 with hot water pipes circulating through it
and a fan behind it that (quietly) blew air out over the coils. I have
seen these in commercial garages before. It was mounted up hight in a
corner where the walls met the ceiling. Anybody know what I'm talking
about?

-Jim

jtpr wrote:

Anyway,
it was a square about 3x3 with hot water pipes circulating through it
and a fan behind it that (quietly) blew air out over the coils. I have
seen these in commercial garages before. It was mounted up hight in a
corner where the walls met the ceiling. Anybody know what I'm talking
about?

Try looking up "hydronic unit heater". They need a boiler of some kind
to provide the heat source.

Chris

lucky4fingers wrote:
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

I have a shop outside that's ostensibly "unheated". I live in a climate
that is very cold in the winter, and I mean very cold.

I use a kerosene heater when I'm out there. I go out, start it up, come
back for a cup of coffee and go back out to a warmish shed.

If the temperature is above -15 C (5 F) I can get the shed comfortably
warm. It's not insulated, or I could likely tolerate a colder outside
temperature.

Kerosene is relatively clean, and also pretty easy to use. Some people
claim it's smelly but I've had no problems with that once it's up to
heat. The issue that i have with it is that it's a bit pricey and I'll
likely change to some other form of heat next year. However, it's a good
stopgap and it would do a 2 car garage nicely.

Tanus

--
This is not really a sig.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that
way!)

Even in that case, the heater has done it's job.

In "my" half of the unheated 2-car garage, the ceiling is insulated and
sheetrocked, and the workbench area has a quartz element radiant heater
pointed at it. Got it from Woodcraft. It is absolutely silent. If you're
standing in the general line of fire of the heater then the environment
is bearable. An occasional visit to the kitchen for an insulated mug of
hot chocolate also helps but there are days when even the heater and the
chocolate do no good. Repeat: you will not warm the room with this
thing, you will only warm you if and only if you're standing before the
heating elements. I am pleased with it for what it does. It suits my
limited purposes.

J.


lucky4fingers wrote:
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

Kerosene is what I use. Silent, easy to use and portable. Yes, it's a little
more expensive than some alternatives but, here in the Seattle area, it's
not needed often enough to justify the cost or bother of installing
something else.

"Tanus" wrote in message ...
Kerosene is relatively clean, and also pretty easy to use. Some people
claim it's smelly but I've had no problems with that once it's up to
heat. The issue that i have with it is that it's a bit pricey and I'll
likely change to some other form of heat next year. However, it's a good
stopgap and it would do a 2 car garage nicely.

Tanus

--
This is not really a sig.

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:18:52 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Prometheus" wrote in message

For my buck, propane or natural gas forced air is the way to go- it
does not need to be a jet-style heater to get you a lot of heat for a
minimal operating cost, and they'll heat up a shop a lot more quickly
than any electric.

Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter
than I've been in years!

I'm no expert, but I think that's part of the deal. Here in
Wisconsin, we didn't get any snow *at all* until Mid-January, and
we've still only got an inch or so on the ground. For comparison, we
used to get *deep* snow in this area, and it started in early to mid
November every year- sometimes even as early as October or September.

Personally, I don't like it. I don't live this far north to be denied
my snow- and I doubt you care much for cold, being a Texan!

If I'm going to get any work done in the shop this winter I guess I'm gonna
have to do something related, even it's only temporary.

H2O being a by-product of combustion, do you have a problem with an increase
in humidity causing rust using the propane heaters?

In a word, yes. But, it will depend a lot on what heater you have. A
heater that vents the CO2 and water vapor (which you should have in an
enclosed area anyway) will not be much worse than your home heater. A
torpedo heater or a burner screwed onto a tank is going to make for a
really moist environment, though. That gets to be a problem if you're
repeatedly heating and cooling your shop. You can minimize the effect
by coating your tools with wax or top-cote or something, but it's
better just to get something that will be vented, IMO.

What specific brand/type of propane heater do you recommend?

I couldn't suggest a particular brand, they all seem to be about the
same to me- but this style works nicely.
http://www.heatershop.com/propane_space_heaters.html
As noted above, try and find one that is vented- the ones at this link
are all "vent free", but a trip to your local hardware store should
turn up some other options.

(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that way!)

It sure will. I'm half convinced we have no snow because I finally
broke down and bought a snow blower last year. On the upside, you
won't have to actually buy any propane.

"lucky4fingers" wrote in message
84...
Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIA

A little late getting in on this thread, but I use one a 4000watt Lakewood
commercial convection heater. It works great for my 20x24 shop. Where I
live this ends up being about $0.32 per hour to run. Seems unbelievably
cheap to me, but I also have good insulation in the shop which helps. After
a very, very cold night (20's outside) it takes an hour or so to get up to a
good workable temp. Not balmy 75 but a decent 50 or so in there.

Prior to owning this I used on of those largish kerosene heaters that warmed
the shop quicker, but seemed to eat kerosene even faster. Plus, the hassle
of getting and storing the kerosene made me end up purchasing the convection
heater.

I also have a couple of those oil filled electric heaters that I use by
themselves on days when it's cool, but not frigid. They work great also.

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

Un-vented gas and kerosene heaters is dangerous and I not sure the how
healthy the fumes are. I know my 80,000 btu propane heater and the
kerosene heater I used to use put out black smoke. I now run my
propane heater for about 5 minutes to bring my shop up to temp ( 55-60
degrees, unless I'm finishing ) and then I switch to 2 ceiling mount
electric heaters ( 18000 btu each - 30amp 220 circuits ). 1000sq foot
shop, fully insulated. I add about $10 to $15 a month to my utility
bill and I feel this is much safer than a un-vented gas solution. I
live in Idaho and propane, natural gas, and electric heated homes run
about the same per month for utilities.

On Jan 26, 8:07 am, "Dukester"
wrote:
"lucky4fingers" wrote in 8.173.184...

Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIAA little late getting in on this thread, but I use one a 4000watt Lakewood
commercial convection heater. It works great for my 20x24 shop. Where I
live this ends up being about $0.32 per hour to run. Seems unbelievably
cheap to me, but I also have good insulation in the shop which helps. After
a very, very cold night (20's outside) it takes an hour or so to get up to a
good workable temp. Not balmy 75 but a decent 50 or so in there.

Prior to owning this I used on of those largish kerosene heaters that warmed
the shop quicker, but seemed to eat kerosene even faster. Plus, the hassle
of getting and storing the kerosene made me end up purchasing the convection
heater.

I also have a couple of those oil filled electric heaters that I use by
themselves on days when it's cool, but not frigid. They work great also.

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

On 26 Jan 2007 07:45:30 -0800, "Dave Herron"
wrote:

Un-vented gas and kerosene heaters is dangerous and I not sure the how
healthy the fumes are. I know my 80,000 btu propane heater and the
kerosene heater I used to use put out black smoke.

Then you've got a problem with both of them. That's not normal
behavior for either a kerosene or a propane heater.

I now run my
propane heater for about 5 minutes to bring my shop up to temp ( 55-60
degrees, unless I'm finishing ) and then I switch to 2 ceiling mount
electric heaters ( 18000 btu each - 30amp 220 circuits ). 1000sq foot
shop, fully insulated. I add about $10 to $15 a month to my utility
bill and I feel this is much safer than a un-vented gas solution. I
live in Idaho and propane, natural gas, and electric heated homes run
about the same per month for utilities.

On Jan 26, 8:07 am, "Dukester"
wrote:
"lucky4fingers" wrote in 8.173.184...

Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIAA little late getting in on this thread, but I use one a 4000watt Lakewood
commercial convection heater. It works great for my 20x24 shop. Where I
live this ends up being about $0.32 per hour to run. Seems unbelievably
cheap to me, but I also have good insulation in the shop which helps. After
a very, very cold night (20's outside) it takes an hour or so to get up to a
good workable temp. Not balmy 75 but a decent 50 or so in there.

Prior to owning this I used on of those largish kerosene heaters that warmed
the shop quicker, but seemed to eat kerosene even faster. Plus, the hassle
of getting and storing the kerosene made me end up purchasing the convection
heater.

I also have a couple of those oil filled electric heaters that I use by
themselves on days when it's cool, but not frigid. They work great also.

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

Me too. But the probably know by now that cutting wood and having sex
at the same time can be dangerous...

-Jim

On Jan 26, 9:45 am, "Dave Herron" wrote:
then I switch to 2 ceiling mount
electric heaters ( 18000 btu each - 30amp 220 circuits ). 1000sq foot
shop, fully insulated. I add about $10 to $15 a month to my utility
bill and I feel this is much safer than a un-vented gas solution. I
live in Idaho and propane, natural gas, and electric heated homes run
about the same per month for utilities.

I'm in Wisconsin with a 20x20 unattached partially insulated garage. I
use one of those electric heaters exclusively. I have to wait about an
hour before it's comfortable in there and if it's below 20, it doesn't
get comfortable.

But I don't like the moisture and fumes created by anything that burns,
unless it uses outside air for fuel consumption, plus here in town
there's lots of codes to break and neighbors to watch out for. The
electricity use just hasn't been all that bad. I thought it was going
to cost a lot more to run this unit and until the temps dropped just a
little while ago, it was keeping that shop nice and toasty.

Family issues and high-priority projects have kept me from insulating
properly. This spring it gets done for sure.

And a word of gratitude; after getting a nightstand built to her own
specs, SWMBO up and GAVE me her half of the garage and now parks under
a pine tree because that's the only spot off the street. Bless her
heart. This spring she gets a little carport tarp-and-framework thing
just to keep the pine sap off.

On 26 Jan 2007 08:37:18 -0800, "jtpr" wrote:


I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

Me too. But the probably know by now that cutting wood and having sex
at the same time can be dangerous...

Said John Wayne Bobbitt.

-Jim

Dukester wrote:

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

My shop probably hit -30 C this winter. Hard to work when wearing big
mitts to keep my fingers from freezing.

Chris

The smoke is not visible to the naked eye but if you leave a propane
or kerosene heater in one spot you will for awhile you will see a
black area around the heater.

On Jan 26, 9:02 am, J. Clarke wrote:
On 26 Jan 2007 07:45:30 -0800, "Dave Herron"

wrote:
Un-vented gas and kerosene heaters is dangerous and I not sure the how
healthy the fumes are. I know my 80,000 btu propane heater and the
kerosene heater I used to use put out black smoke.Then you've got a problem with both of them. That's not normal
behavior for either a kerosene or a propane heater.

I now run my
propane heater for about 5 minutes to bring my shop up to temp ( 55-60
degrees, unless I'm finishing ) and then I switch to 2 ceiling mount
electric heaters ( 18000 btu each - 30amp 220 circuits ). 1000sq foot
shop, fully insulated. I add about $10 to $15 a month to my utility
bill and I feel this is much safer than a un-vented gas solution. I
live in Idaho and propane, natural gas, and electric heated homes run
about the same per month for utilities.

On Jan 26, 8:07 am, "Dukester"
wrote:
"lucky4fingers" wrote in 8.173.184...

Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural
Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good
electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove.
TIAA little late getting in on this thread, but I use one a 4000watt Lakewood
commercial convection heater. It works great for my 20x24 shop. Where I
live this ends up being about $0.32 per hour to run. Seems unbelievably
cheap to me, but I also have good insulation in the shop which helps. After
a very, very cold night (20's outside) it takes an hour or so to get up to a
good workable temp. Not balmy 75 but a decent 50 or so in there.

Prior to owning this I used on of those largish kerosene heaters that warmed
the shop quicker, but seemed to eat kerosene even faster. Plus, the hassle
of getting and storing the kerosene made me end up purchasing the convection
heater.

I also have a couple of those oil filled electric heaters that I use by
themselves on days when it's cool, but not frigid. They work great also.

I'm surprised none of the hardcore galoots here said anything about wearing
heavier clothes and creating your own heat the old fashioned way! ;-)

Cheers!
Dukester

wrote in message

Swingman sez:
Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this
winter than I've been in years!


http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/s2772.htm

quotethe 2006 annual average temperature was 55 degrees F-2.2 degrees F
(1.2 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean and 0.07 degrees F (0.04 degrees
C) warmer than 1998. NOAA originally estimated in mid-December that the 2006
annual average temperature for the contiguous United States would likely be
2 degrees F (1.1 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean, which would have
made 2006 the third warmest year on record, slightly cooler than 1998 and
1934, according to preliminary data. Further analysis of annual temperatures
and an unusually warm December caused the change in records."/quote?

OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average" and a
"mean'?

Educate me ... could this be why they were so far off in their
estimate/predictions?

Why does 80% of the paragraph deal with an "estimate" that was proven
wrong, without appearing to do so?

Are these guys really using "scientific method" for their analysis, or is
this really the "junk science" that it appears (and reads) to be?

Hampshire) and no state was colder than average in December."

quote These data, primarily from rural stations, have been adjusted to
remove artificial effects resulting from factors such as urbanization and
station and instrument changes,"?quote

Now just how/why do you/would you "adjust" a temperature reading on a
thermometer?

You usually "adjust" something to make it fit ... a "hypothesis" perhaps?

I hope not ... those are in large part my tax dollars that paid for
educating those scientists at our institutions of higher learnin.........
Hmmmmmm!

"... this new data set also shows 2006 and 1998 to be the two warmest years
on record for the contiguous U.S., but with 2006 slightly cooler than 1998."

.... and quote "2006 was cooler than 1934"./quote

But it feels colder than it really is
because of the very warm December.

"Feels" doesn't cut it, what the thermometer says does.

"Feels like" was invented by the TV/marketing folks/politicians/those with
an agenda so they could use a higher/lower number to wow you/sell you
something with more sensationalism.

Sorta like the accepted unit of measurement for crude oil is "barrels". That
is until it's spilled, then it's suddenly becomes "gallons", a number 55
times larger.

What is a "fact" - not a hypothesis or theory - is that 50% of us are below
average IQ, therefore if we can convince the lower 50%, we can sell/win
elections/fool you all the time.

.... and you know what they say about "statistics".

Methinks a short course on "junk science" may be in order.

ITMT, as as absolutely "proved" by the above, it obviously too just too damn
COLD in Texas this morning to work in the shop, despite the hypothesis of
mankind induced global warming.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

In article , "Swingman" wrote:


OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average" and a
"mean'?

"Average" and "mean" are *exactly* the same thing.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:43:01 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

snipped

Arithmetic mean is same as average, you may be confusing it with the
median or mode, other terms used by statisticians to confuse one and
all.

Call up the Inhofe presentation, "average" that with the climate alarm
grou[p, and you can stop worrying. Nothing you can do about it anyway.
But you might still need heat in the shop. I had to use heat last
night to keep the latex paints and water based glues from freezing.
Most years get by with a hundred watt light bulb.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:43:01 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

snipped

Arithmetic mean is same as average, you may be confusing it with the
median or mode, other terms used by statisticians to confuse one and
all.

Nope, no confusion, but I may well have assumed too much, too early in the
morning, about the webpages attempt at "statistical" evidence.

Remark was based on what appeared to me to be an attempt to determine/define
a rate of change in global warming/temperatures. Did I just imagine that, or
did I just read that into it?

In any event, last time I took the course (maybe too many years ago), a
statiscal analysis of *rate of change* is assumed to use a "geometric" mean
on the data, as an arithmetic mean (average) would result in a higher, and
inarguably invalid conclusion ... unless, of course, you are trying to
mislead someone.

As you can probably guess, I'm convinced there is a LOT of statistical
"misleading" on this issue.

Call up the Inhofe presentation, "average" that with the climate alarm
grou[p, and you can stop worrying. Nothing you can do about it anyway.

I agree ... but don't tell that to Al before the Oscar's!

But you might still need heat in the shop. I had to use heat last
night to keep the latex paints and water based glues from freezing.
Most years get by with a hundred watt light bulb.

I managed to get a glue-up done before it got too cold last night, but until
just this afternoon doing anything else that had to do with glue or
finishing was out of the question.

I think I'll just wait until that annual, "statistically predictable",
global warming called summer, where the "average" temperature is in the
90's.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

On Jan 29, 8:43 am, "Swingman" wrote:
wrote in message
Swingman sez:
Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this
winter than I've been in years!
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/s2772.htmquotethe 2006 annual average temperature was 55 degrees F-2.2 degrees F
(1.2 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean and 0.07 degrees F (0.04 degrees
C) warmer than 1998. NOAA originally estimated in mid-December that the 2006
annual average temperature for the contiguous United States would likely be
2 degrees F (1.1 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean, which would have
made 2006 the third warmest year on record, slightly cooler than 1998 and
1934, according to preliminary data. Further analysis of annual temperatures
and an unusually warm December caused the change in records."/quote?

OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average" and a
"mean'?

As explained by others, they are synonyms.



Educate me ... could this be why they were so far off in their
estimate/predictions?

Why does 80% of the paragraph deal with an "estimate" that was proven
wrong, without appearing to do so?

As the paragraph explains, they did preliminary estimates in mid
December using some model. But the rest of December, that had not
occurred yet, actually came in warmer than the model predicted. In
business you make projections of sales, profit, etc. for the year.
You update this as the year goes along. The estimate in mid year for
the whole year is half realized and half unrealized based upon
models. Until the year ends you do not know the actual profit, sales,
etc. But all businesses do this. You are always comparing budget to
actual and projected to be sure things do not get out of hand. I'm
guessing you never worked on the financial side of a business.




Are these guys really using "scientific method" for their analysis, or is
this really the "junk science" that it appears (and reads) to be?

See above. You make projections throughout the year and then compare
your projections to actual at the end. Called backtesting. You then
use this information to improve your model for estimating so you can
project better next time. Being able to reliably project the future
in a business, or anything, is valuable. Predictability is what you
want. You can plan for predictability. Take winter for example.
Where I live its predictably cold and snowy. The DOT uses this
reliable prediction to budget for road clearing, sand and salt
stockpiling, etc. In Texas you really don't have predictable
winters. Normally they are warm. So you do not plan anything. Then
when ice and snow hit Dallas, you are really screwed. Where I live,
when the ice and snow come, we just send out the snow plows and
everything continues as normal.



Hampshire) and no state was colder than average in December."quote These data, primarily from rural stations, have been adjusted to
remove artificial effects resulting from factors such as urbanization and
station and instrument changes,"?quote

Now just how/why do you/would you "adjust" a temperature reading on a
thermometer?

You adjust it to make it comparable. For instance a Unisaw cost $100
in 1939. A Unisaw costs $1800 today. How would you compare them?
You adjust the 1939 dollars for inflation so it represents 2007
dollars. Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth were not sprawling concrete
things until recently. Concrete urban centers cause their own weather
by warming up the entire area. Concrete holds heat. So a 80 degree
Dallas day in 1900 is not exactly comparable to an 80 degree day in
2006. The 80 degree Dallas reading in 2006 may actually represent 76
degrees ambient air temperature and 4 degrees from the concrete.



You usually "adjust" something to make it fit ... a "hypothesis" perhaps?

I hope not ... those are in large part my tax dollars that paid for
educating those scientists at our institutions of higher learnin.........
Hmmmmmm!

"... this new data set also shows 2006 and 1998 to be the two warmest years
on record for the contiguous U.S., but with 2006 slightly cooler than 1998."

... and quote "2006 was cooler than 1934"./quote

But it feels colder than it really is
because of the very warm December."Feels" doesn't cut it, what the thermometer says does.

"Feels like" was invented by the TV/marketing folks/politicians/those with
an agenda so they could use a higher/lower number to wow you/sell you
something with more sensationalism.


This is your quote:
Swingman sez:
Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this
winter than I've been in years!

You claim to be colder this winter than you have been in years. You
are the one who feels cold. Even though Texas, like every other state
in the USA was warmer in December than average. Your being colder
than you have been in years is not temperature related because Texas
was warmer than average in December. You are older now. Old people
seem to complain about being cold more than young people. Are you
wearing fewer layers of clothes now than years ago? Are your clothes
not as warm, less insulation in them? Are you skinnier than in years
past? Why are you colder this winter than you have been in years?
Its not the temperature.

You obviously know in what context I used the term feel. 60 degrees
in Dallas in July feels COLD. 60 degrees in Dallas in January feels
HOT. Its relative. December was above average temperature according
to NOAA. So when January returns to its normal cold temperature, it
feels really COLD. Even though its just normal temperature.
Yesterday morning I was outside around 8 AM and it was 0 degrees and
the sun was still low in the sky. When I was outside again at 11:30
AM it was about 10 degrees and the sun was high in the sky. It felt
reasonably warm at 11:30 AM yesterday. Out of the wind anyway. 10
degrees was still well below the normal temperature for January. But
relative to the dawn period, it felt warm.




Sorta like the accepted unit of measurement for crude oil is "barrels". That
is until it's spilled, then it's suddenly becomes "gallons", a number 55
times larger.

I guess you could use Celcius in the winter to prove how cold Texas
is. And Fahrnheit in the summer to prove how hot Texas is. As long
as you are consistent from year to year, it would be valid. But you
are against adjustments per your previous statement.



What is a "fact" - not a hypothesis or theory - is that 50% of us are below
average IQ, therefore if we can convince the lower 50%, we can sell/win
elections/fool you all the time.

... and you know what they say about "statistics".

Methinks a short course on "junk science" may be in order.

ITMT, as as absolutely "proved" by the above, it obviously too just too damn
COLD in Texas this morning to work in the shop, despite the hypothesis of
mankind induced global warming.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

wrote in message

OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average"
and a
"mean'?

As explained by others, they are synonyms.

And, as explained in another post, they are not.

The fact that you aren't even aware that there is a difference in "mean",
explains the rest of your post, snipped as equally flawed in reasoning.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

Get on the next chicken little bandwagon now...
THE ICE AGE COMETH!

Swingman wrote:
wrote in message


Swingman sez:
Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this
winter than I've been in years!



http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/s2772.htm


quotethe 2006 annual average temperature was 55 degrees F-2.2 degrees F
(1.2 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean and 0.07 degrees F (0.04 degrees
C) warmer than 1998. NOAA originally estimated in mid-December that the 2006
annual average temperature for the contiguous United States would likely be
2 degrees F (1.1 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean, which would have
made 2006 the third warmest year on record, slightly cooler than 1998 and
1934, according to preliminary data. Further analysis of annual temperatures
and an unusually warm December caused the change in records."/quote?

OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average" and a
"mean'?

Educate me ... could this be why they were so far off in their
estimate/predictions?

Why does 80% of the paragraph deal with an "estimate" that was proven
wrong, without appearing to do so?

Are these guys really using "scientific method" for their analysis, or is
this really the "junk science" that it appears (and reads) to be?


Hampshire) and no state was colder than average in December."


quote These data, primarily from rural stations, have been adjusted to
remove artificial effects resulting from factors such as urbanization and
station and instrument changes,"?quote

Now just how/why do you/would you "adjust" a temperature reading on a
thermometer?

You usually "adjust" something to make it fit ... a "hypothesis" perhaps?

I hope not ... those are in large part my tax dollars that paid for
educating those scientists at our institutions of higher learnin.........
Hmmmmmm!

"... this new data set also shows 2006 and 1998 to be the two warmest years
on record for the contiguous U.S., but with 2006 slightly cooler than 1998."

... and quote "2006 was cooler than 1934"./quote

But it feels colder than it really is
because of the very warm December.


"Feels" doesn't cut it, what the thermometer says does.

"Feels like" was invented by the TV/marketing folks/politicians/those with
an agenda so they could use a higher/lower number to wow you/sell you
something with more sensationalism.

Sorta like the accepted unit of measurement for crude oil is "barrels". That
is until it's spilled, then it's suddenly becomes "gallons", a number 55
times larger.

What is a "fact" - not a hypothesis or theory - is that 50% of us are below
average IQ, therefore if we can convince the lower 50%, we can sell/win
elections/fool you all the time.

... and you know what they say about "statistics".

Methinks a short course on "junk science" may be in order.

ITMT, as as absolutely "proved" by the above, it obviously too just too damn
COLD in Texas this morning to work in the shop, despite the hypothesis of
mankind induced global warming.

"Lou Newell" wrote in message
Get on the next chicken little bandwagon now...
THE ICE AGE COMETH!

Al has to get his Oscar first.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
wrote in message

OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average"
and a
"mean'?

As explained by others, they are synonyms.

And, as explained in another post, they are not.

The fact that you aren't even aware that there is a difference in "mean",
explains the rest of your post, snipped as equally flawed in reasoning.

You appear to be unaware that "mean", withOUT any qualifiers, means
"arithmetic mean" -- which is exactly the same as "average". If "geometric
mean" is *meant*, then it must be so stated in order to be so understood.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.