Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years. And, my
cast-iron topped Craftsman table saw - tooling along after something
like 25 years or so.

Presently am gearing up to (finally) build a decent space for a
woodshop (circa 1000sf) - and have found some local Grizzly machinery
(used, but very little and a decent price) - and am considering
additional purchases from them to round out the basics (only really
needing a jointer -- thinking of the Griz 8").

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

I'm aware of the higher end stuff (assuming Laguna and others we see in
FineWoodworking, etc) - and that could be an option down the road.

But the question is more related to what has emerged to take the
(historic) Craftsman of old - not so much what tool purchases I may or
may not make in the near or distant future.

Thanks for any comments...

-- john.

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago?

Ridgid comes to mind. Not throw-away junk, but not quite German
engineering either.

DonkeyHody
"I'd rather expect the best from people and be wrong than expect the
worst and be right."

"jcatora" wrote in message
But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

Some Craftsman tools are just re-branded from other manufacturers and are
exact except for the paint. If you find one of those, buy on price if Sears
has them on sale.

I know people that have and like their cordless drills also.

Other than those, there are many brands of tools that are decent value and
quality. Bosch, Milwaukee, DeWalt, Delta, Porter Cable, Hitachi, are just a
few.

Brands to avoid for quality are Ryobi, Black & Decker and Skil. They are
made for the one a year homeowner market, not for a pro.

I too have some Craftsman sockets, open end wrenches, etc from about 45
years ago. Far superior to what they sell today.

"jcatora" wrote in message
ps.com...

Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years.

I have a nephew who, when he was about 13 or 14, used to haunt yard sales
for used and/or damaged Craftsman tools. He'd then go to Sears and get new
ones under their lifetime guarantee policy. He's now in his 40s and still
has them.

Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.

On Dec 28, 9:30 pm, "Lee K" wrote:
"jcatora" wrote in glegroups.com...



Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years.I have a nephew who, when he was about 13 or 14, used to haunt yard sales
for used and/or damaged Craftsman tools. He'd then go to Sears and get new
ones under their lifetime guarantee policy. He's now in his 40s and still
has them.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 03:30:59 GMT, "Lee K"
wrote:


"jcatora" wrote in message
ups.com...

Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years.

I have a nephew who, when he was about 13 or 14, used to haunt yard sales
for used and/or damaged Craftsman tools. He'd then go to Sears and get new
ones under their lifetime guarantee policy. He's now in his 40s and still
has them.


Smart kid.

Having a couple of Old craftsman tools and having worn out a few newer
craftsman tools, I would vote for Grizzly to take over the Old craftsman
spot for larger tools. Delta seems to be in trouble with their customer
service and has some quality issues. Jet is defiantly a contender, but I
think Grizzly is the forerunner at the moment. As for Rigid I don't know
since I have been in a Home Depot once in the past year, and don't know
anyone who has any of their tools. For hand power tools it's anyone's
guess. I used to like PC but don't like their new designs, Bosch and Hitachi
seem to be fairly good for the money at the moment with DeWalt doing fairly
well in cordless. I used to like skill better then craftsman but don't buy
either anymore. For hand tools who knows? I've started getting everything
from Lee Valley and Wood crafters or at flea markets.
"jcatora" wrote in message
ps.com...

Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years. And, my
cast-iron topped Craftsman table saw - tooling along after something
like 25 years or so.

Presently am gearing up to (finally) build a decent space for a
woodshop (circa 1000sf) - and have found some local Grizzly machinery
(used, but very little and a decent price) - and am considering
additional purchases from them to round out the basics (only really
needing a jointer -- thinking of the Griz 8").

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

I'm aware of the higher end stuff (assuming Laguna and others we see in
FineWoodworking, etc) - and that could be an option down the road.

But the question is more related to what has emerged to take the
(historic) Craftsman of old - not so much what tool purchases I may or
may not make in the near or distant future.

Thanks for any comments...

-- john.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
et:

*snip*


Brands to avoid for quality are Ryobi, Black & Decker and Skil. They
are made for the one a year homeowner market, not for a pro.


*snip*

You know, I like my Ryobi drill press and Skil power screw drivers. One
Skil screw driver is on its second motor, and doing ok. They're
definately not for a professional drilling hundreds of holes a month, but
they're not bad tools. They're like chuck steak as opposed to sauce
covered hamburgers and definately not top sirloin steak.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

In article . com,
Never Enough Money wrote:

Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.

In what regard? Craftsman tools like squares, levels, hammers,
wrenches, etc are guaranteed for the life of the tool, NOT the life of
the original purchaser.

Joe
who sees nothing immoral about taking them up on THEIR gaurantee

"10x" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Never Enough Money wrote:

Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.

In what regard? Craftsman tools like squares, levels, hammers,
wrenches, etc are guaranteed for the life of the tool, NOT the life of
the original purchaser.


That's how I see it, too.



Joe
who sees nothing immoral about taking them up on THEIR gaurantee

If that were the case, there would be no reason for them to replace a broken
or worn out tool. As soon as the tool breaks or wears out, it's life is over
so the warranty is over too.
The "life of the toll" bit was added by other manufacturers in order to
appear that they offered a guarantee when they actually did not.

"10x" wrote in message
...

In what regard? Craftsman tools like squares, levels, hammers,
wrenches, etc are guaranteed for the life of the tool,

Sears has been sucking in hand tool customers with their lifetime guarantee
story for as long as I can rememeber. And I'm old. I own a set of
Craftsman mechanics tools, that have been excellent, for nearly forty years.
I have tested the guarantee a few times, including a ratchet handle that had
been run over buy a car and busted in the middle of the handle. No
questions - just a new replacement tool.

HOWEVER, about 15 years ago it occured to me that I was paying at least
twice the cost of Master Mechanics or other store brands offered by major
hardware stores (Ace, True Value, etc.) Guess what -- same warranty! The
local hardware store owner told me he had customers report that they found a
Craftsman socket among Master Mechanics sockets bought in his store.

In addition to gimmics, one of Sears main strategies has been the sale of
common tools, at higher prices ON CREDIT. They used to make more money that
way - until they started alienating their long-time customers.

RonB


"10x" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Never Enough Money wrote:

Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.

In what regard? Craftsman tools like squares, levels, hammers,
wrenches, etc are guaranteed for the life of the tool, NOT the life of
the original purchaser.

Joe
who sees nothing immoral about taking them up on THEIR gaurantee

RonB wrote:
They used to make more money that
way - until they started alienating their long-time customers.


Twenty years ago, I was a devoted Sears customer. I bought their hand
& power tools, appliances, tires, batteries and even clothes. So much
so that I took a lot of ribbing from family about owning stock in
Sears. Just about the time I outgrew their power tools, I noticed that
every time I left their automotive store, I was mad. I was mad about
having to stand in long lines to get waited on, mad about taking longer
than promised to install batteries or tires, mad about added charges
not previously disclosed, and mad about the surly attitude of their
sales staff. Same way with Wal Mart. I took my trade to local
mom-and-pop businesses and never looked back. Now, I shop the big box
stores like Sears, Wal Mart and Home Depot only when I can't find it at
a smaller store. I may be spending more money, but I spend a lot less
time steaming.

DonkeyHody
"Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate."

I think a lot of the Craftsman power tools were made by
Ridgid years ago.


DonkeyHody wrote:

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago?

Ridgid comes to mind. Not throw-away junk, but not quite German
engineering either.

If you never use them they probably are ok.

Lee K wrote:

I have a nephew who, when he was about 13 or 14, used to haunt yard sales
for used and/or damaged Craftsman tools. He'd then go to Sears and get new
ones under their lifetime guarantee policy. He's now in his 40s and still
has them.

Don't focus on one manufacturer. I have tools from Delta,
Dewalt, Jet, Bosch, Porter Cable, and others. I choose what
I like based on feel, quality, and features. For example,
I liked the vernier adjustment of the fence on the Dewalt
Biscuit Joiner more than the option of tiny biscuits with the
Porter Cable. My Milwaukee sawzall felt a lot better than
the Porter Cable Tiger saw. But the Porter Cable circular
saw was the most powerful (and heaviest!) in its class.

You may be limited somewhat by availability, but if you
always buy just on the basis of brand name you will sometimes
be disappointed.

jcatora wrote:
Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years. And, my
cast-iron topped Craftsman table saw - tooling along after something
like 25 years or so.

Presently am gearing up to (finally) build a decent space for a
woodshop (circa 1000sf) - and have found some local Grizzly machinery
(used, but very little and a decent price) - and am considering
additional purchases from them to round out the basics (only really
needing a jointer -- thinking of the Griz 8").

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:10:59 -0500, M Berger wrote:

I think a lot of the Craftsman power tools were made by
Ridgid years ago.


Years ago Emerson Electric made many of the Sears tools. Emerson stopped
making tools for Sears and switched over to making tools for Home Depot
under the Ridgid brand. About two years ago Emerson stopped making all
tools other than the shop vac in the Ridgid line. I believe the majority
of the Ridgid tools are now made by Ryobi.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
ups.com...

RonB wrote:
They used to make more money that
way - until they started alienating their long-time customers.


Twenty years ago, I was a devoted Sears customer. I bought their hand
& power tools, appliances, tires, batteries and even clothes. So much
so that I took a lot of ribbing from family about owning stock in
Sears. Just about the time I outgrew their power tools, I noticed that
every time I left their automotive store, I was mad. I was mad about
having to stand in long lines to get waited on, mad about taking longer
than promised to install batteries or tires, mad about added charges
not previously disclosed, and mad about the surly attitude of their
sales staff. Same way with Wal Mart. I took my trade to local
mom-and-pop businesses and never looked back. Now, I shop the big box
stores like Sears, Wal Mart and Home Depot only when I can't find it at
a smaller store. I may be spending more money, but I spend a lot less
time steaming.

DonkeyHody
"Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate."

After clocking in at Sears, I used to have to walk past the automotive desk
on the way to my department. Hated that trip as there was almost always a
long line there and usually a very vocal and mad customer yelling at one of
the guys behind the desk. Once a guy was yelling because his new brake job
had failed and his wife and daughter almost involved in an accident because
of it. I feared that someone would go "postal" as I walked by.

Tom G.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"jcatora" wrote in message
But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

Some Craftsman tools are just re-branded from other manufacturers and are
exact except for the paint. If you find one of those, buy on price if Sears
has them on sale.

I know people that have and like their cordless drills also.

Other than those, there are many brands of tools that are decent value and
quality. Bosch, Milwaukee, DeWalt, Delta, Porter Cable, Hitachi, are just a
few.

Brands to avoid for quality are Ryobi, Black & Decker and Skil. They are
made for the one a year homeowner market, not for a pro.

I too have some Craftsman sockets, open end wrenches, etc from about 45
years ago. Far superior to what they sell today.


I hear this a lot about Ryobi. But I'm on my second Ryobi Cordless
drill. The batteries on the first went and it was about the same cost
to just by a new one. Other then that I would probably still be using
it. Plus, I love the magnetic base. Don't think I'd go for the
"larger" tools, but the drills are great.

-Jim

Never Enough Money wrote:
Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.


Hey, somebody has to grow up to be a politician....

Never Enough Money wrote:
Your nephew may be "legally in the right," but I thinks it's immoral to
do that.


Hey, somebody has to grow up to be a politician....

Tom G wrote:

After clocking in at Sears, I used to have to walk past the
automotive desk
on the way to my department. Hated that trip as there was almost
always a
long line there and usually a very vocal and mad customer yelling
at one of
the guys behind the desk.

My father refused to have ANY automotive work done at Sears, based on
the experiences of his friends who had been ripped off.

He died in 1959.

Lew

Problem is, we just don't know anymore, everything could be from one
big manufactuer in china and they just have different plastic moulds
that come by... yellow, orange, blue, green, etc, etc.

The business of manufacture should make the interchangability of parts
between (say) ryobi and ridgid (and/or bosh, and/or emerson)
virtually irristable.

Although I doubt we have enough collective cohesiveness within this
group to do it, but it would be cool if there were an enclopedic
record of what's *inside* some of these things to help us make more
informed decisions. Like a visual record of the "ingredients" because
it's what's inside that counts.

I've got a Ridgid TS2400 that is clearly emerson (according to the
castings) but the motor is obsured by some plastic so I can't read the
specs on it (e.g. horsepower, or mfg name)

I still don't know what kind of cells are in the ryobi plus system, it
would be cool if someone that had taken it apart could have snapped
some pics while they had it open.

And then there was that ass-kicker that reviewed the PC 890, and
decided that it should have varnished windings. Pics illustrating
that would have been cool, he obviously took it apart. Not too long
after that, many of them were recalled.

jcatora wrote:
Folks,

Noticing the recurring discussions about 'The Fall of Craftsman', I
could echo my subjective response to what I see on the shelves of Sears
any more. Thankfully, I still have my very first tool purchase -- a
Craftsman 3/8" rachet -- still working fine after 45 years. And, my
cast-iron topped Craftsman table saw - tooling along after something
like 25 years or so.

Presently am gearing up to (finally) build a decent space for a
woodshop (circa 1000sf) - and have found some local Grizzly machinery
(used, but very little and a decent price) - and am considering
additional purchases from them to round out the basics (only really
needing a jointer -- thinking of the Griz 8").

But, the discussions Craftsman does raise a question -- What
(today) would replace the Craftsman of 15 or 20 years ago? I
completely understand that this would depend quite a bit on the exact
tool in question - and it may be too general (and too emotional) to ask
so simply.

I'm aware of the higher end stuff (assuming Laguna and others we see in
FineWoodworking, etc) - and that could be an option down the road.

But the question is more related to what has emerged to take the
(historic) Craftsman of old - not so much what tool purchases I may or
may not make in the near or distant future.

Thanks for any comments...

-- john.

"jtpr" wrote in message
I hear this a lot about Ryobi. But I'm on my second Ryobi Cordless
drill. The batteries on the first went and it was about the same cost
to just by a new one. Other then that I would probably still be using
it. Plus, I love the magnetic base. Don't think I'd go for the
"larger" tools, but the drills are great.

Your experience is far different than mine. I'll never buy another.

On 29 Dec 2006 07:29:19 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

I took my trade to local
mom-and-pop businesses and never looked back. Now, I shop the big box
stores like Sears, Wal Mart and Home Depot only when I can't find it at
a smaller store. I may be spending more money, but I spend a lot less
time steaming.

What on Earth can you find at a big box that isn't at a smaller store?
Everytime I got to WalMart out of sheer desperation because I'm in the
middle of something and need supplies at 2am, I get nothing but blank
stares and answers like "nobody uses *that* anymore."

The little places are the ones who still have old bits of whatever
hidden away on a back shelf. Then again, it's probably me... I'm
always trying to make everything myself, and it turns out that that
isn't a very common thing to do anymore. If you don't believe that,
go try to buy an anvil.