I am in the process of finishing up a display case for my son. The case
will have glass on the front and sides and have a mirrored back. Because of
the design the glass is installed from the outside of the case. The rabbets
that receive the glass are to receive glass that is 3/32" thick and a 1/4"
radius quarter round.
Arriving at the glass store that I normally purchase from there is a new
girl working behind the counter. She apparently has been there long enough
to know the jargon but is clueless when it comes to the actual thickness of
glass.
When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use. I
knew 1/8" was too thick and 1/16" breaks too easily. She pulls out two
samples of the glass and I look at their thicknesses and I tell her I want
the 3/32" piece. She says again that the samples are 1/16" and 1/8" thick.
I put the edges of the two pieces side by side and told her that one was
clearly not double the thickness of the other. Yes, the thinner one is much
closer to 3/32". Grabbing four of her 1/16" thick samples and putting into
a stack and three of her 1/8" samples and placing those in a stack beside
the other stack they are of equal height. I looked at her and said, four
1/16" thick pieces of glass stacked should not be the same thickness of
three 1/8" thick pieces of glass stacked together.
She looked at me like I was crazy.

When I got home the glass measured out with the dial caliper at 3/32" thick.

I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double the
thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

Was this just me being like a noob to wood working and being confused with
why a 2 x 4 is not two inches thick? In the past the seasoned employees
behind the counter at the glass company knew what I wanted when I said
3/32" thick.

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...
I am in the process of finishing up a display case for my son. The case
will have glass on the front and sides and have a mirrored back. Because
of the design the glass is installed from the outside of the case. The
rabbets that receive the glass are to receive glass that is 3/32" thick and
a 1/4" radius quarter round.
Arriving at the glass store that I normally purchase from there is a new
girl working behind the counter. She apparently has been there long
enough to know the jargon but is clueless when it comes to the actual
thickness of glass.
When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use. I
knew 1/8" was too thick and 1/16" breaks too easily. She pulls out two
samples of the glass and I look at their thicknesses and I tell her I want
the 3/32" piece. She says again that the samples are 1/16" and 1/8"
thick. I put the edges of the two pieces side by side and told her that
one was clearly not double the thickness of the other. Yes, the thinner
one is much closer to 3/32". Grabbing four of her 1/16" thick samples and
putting into a stack and three of her 1/8" samples and placing those in a
stack beside the other stack they are of equal height. I looked at her
and said, four 1/16" thick pieces of glass stacked should not be the same
thickness of three 1/8" thick pieces of glass stacked together.
She looked at me like I was crazy.

When I got home the glass measured out with the dial caliper at 3/32"
thick.

I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double
the thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

Was this just me being like a noob to wood working and being confused with
why a 2 x 4 is not two inches thick? In the past the seasoned employees
behind the counter at the glass company knew what I wanted when I said
3/32" thick.

The practical math skills of many folks these days are none. It is like
counting change. Not that many people can do it. Remember back when you got
somebody to actually count out change for you?

It could very well be that this person did not know that a 3/32" even
existed.

And she probably greatly resented you upsetting her tidy little math world
persective too.

My wife used to teach remedial math to grade schoolers as a volunteer. She
had a simple plan. She used money. Just dimes, pennies, quarters, etc.
They would practice buying and selling candy bars. When they all got it
right, they ate the candy bars and kept the money. Her students learned
math quicker and better than anybody else!

Leon,

Just another sample of 'our' tremendous educational system. 'Learn by rote',
and just enough to pass that pesky 'No child left behind' test. Fractions?,
Decimals? Metric? *CONVERSIONS* ????

I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'. There just
doesn't seem to be any mental connections between 'Cause' and 'Effect'. Or
Sex and Conception, for that matter.

I really shudder when 'they' proudly say, 'These children are our future'.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Leon" wrote ...
SNIP
I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double
the
thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

If you want to really challenge your MATH SKILLS, try reading the Grocery
Shopping Ads that (in our area) arrive in your mailbox (or local paper)
weekly!

I use them with the grandchildren tasking them to find the best price on
their favorite foodstuffs (and junk foodstuffs) giving them a sheet to
record the ad price (like Buy two, get one Free) and the net price per item
or unit.

I even devised a curriculum tool (in hopes the local schools might pick up
on it) called Grocery Shopping Equals Math.

I guess we could now add "Glass Shopping" too.

But, instead of embarrassing the clerk, why not try and share your insights
with her?

We all need to help train the next generation and its clear the "leave it to
the schools" approach isn't working.



"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
. ..

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...
I am in the process of finishing up a display case for my son. The case
will have glass on the front and sides and have a mirrored back. Because
of the design the glass is installed from the outside of the case. The
rabbets that receive the glass are to receive glass that is 3/32" thick
and a 1/4" radius quarter round.
Arriving at the glass store that I normally purchase from there is a new
girl working behind the counter. She apparently has been there long
enough to know the jargon but is clueless when it comes to the actual
thickness of glass.
When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use. I
knew 1/8" was too thick and 1/16" breaks too easily. She pulls out two
samples of the glass and I look at their thicknesses and I tell her I
want the 3/32" piece. She says again that the samples are 1/16" and 1/8"
thick. I put the edges of the two pieces side by side and told her that
one was clearly not double the thickness of the other. Yes, the thinner
one is much closer to 3/32". Grabbing four of her 1/16" thick samples
and putting into a stack and three of her 1/8" samples and placing those
in a stack beside the other stack they are of equal height. I looked at
her and said, four 1/16" thick pieces of glass stacked should not be the
same thickness of three 1/8" thick pieces of glass stacked together.
She looked at me like I was crazy.

When I got home the glass measured out with the dial caliper at 3/32"
thick.

I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double
the thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

Was this just me being like a noob to wood working and being confused
with why a 2 x 4 is not two inches thick? In the past the seasoned
employees behind the counter at the glass company knew what I wanted
when I said 3/32" thick.

The practical math skills of many folks these days are none. It is like
counting change. Not that many people can do it. Remember back when you
got somebody to actually count out change for you?

It could very well be that this person did not know that a 3/32" even
existed.

And she probably greatly resented you upsetting her tidy little math world
persective too.

My wife used to teach remedial math to grade schoolers as a volunteer. She
had a simple plan. She used money. Just dimes, pennies, quarters, etc.
They would practice buying and selling candy bars. When they all got it
right, they ate the candy bars and kept the money. Her students learned
math quicker and better than anybody else!

"'No child left behind' test."

Given the implied age and experience of the clerk, it would be difficult to
blame NCLB for her failures.

Indeed, it is likely that NCLB is part of the reaction to similar situations
widely noted throughout retail transactions in America.

Of course, the clerk was like used to serving customers intent on replacing
panes in relatively "standard" applications and whom either quoted the
nominal measurements or simply advised of the application (window pane, six
by nine inches) and accepted what was offered.

I wonderhow many of their customers took out a micrometer before setting off
to replace the pane Jimmy's ball busted?

Maybe the arrived with a shard in hand, but carefully executed thickness
measurements to the ten thousandth??

"Ron Magen" wrote in message
news:Tdegh.5277$it5.3022@trndny06...
Leon,

Just another sample of 'our' tremendous educational system. 'Learn by
rote',
and just enough to pass that pesky 'No child left behind' test.
Fractions?,
Decimals? Metric? *CONVERSIONS* ????

I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'. There just
doesn't seem to be any mental connections between 'Cause' and 'Effect'. Or
Sex and Conception, for that matter.

I really shudder when 'they' proudly say, 'These children are our future'.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Leon" wrote ...
SNIP
I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double
the
thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

Ron Magen wrote:
Leon,

Just another sample of 'our' tremendous educational system. 'Learn by
rote', and just enough to pass that pesky 'No child left behind'
test. Fractions?, Decimals? Metric? *CONVERSIONS* ????

Nah, it's the job requrements and nothing much else. Anything beyond
dollars and cents, as in 1/32" etc. is often beyond their comprehension
simply because they have never had to use it and thus are unconcerned with
it. And, I'm sure any OJT from a customer would be severely frowned upon.
Give 'er a break, I say and if you must impart knowledge to her, do so
clearly, concisely and quickly; she has other customers and things she may
be expected to do.

I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'. There
just doesn't seem to be any mental connections between 'Cause' and
'Effect'. Or Sex and Conception, for that matter.

That round-off makes sense in a lot of places. If you ask for 12.2' of
something, most people aren't about to convert a decimal to a fractional
inch, PLUS, it's normal for may places to round up regardless of the size
wanted. In this area I don't think I have EVER bought an exact 8' 2 x 4;
they're always about 8' 1/4" give or take (I assume for end-sanding?) but
never less than 8'. It's the way they set up the saws. And I've gottten
10' a time or two because they were out of 8'. It's no big deal; off the
shelf isn't expected to be useful.

I really shudder when 'they' proudly say, 'These children are our
future'.

That sentence and my sig are why I -really- responded to this! ;-)

Pop`
--
Children are the future;
unless we stop them now.
- Homer Simpson


Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Leon" wrote ...
SNIP
I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not
double the thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that
she did not understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

If she walked into your lumber store and asked for some
1 1/2 by 3 1/2 boards, and you insisted that you only
stocked 2 x 4's, we'd be reading about that in her newsgroup.

Maybe she's not a professional glazier, but was aware
of what industry-standard glass she could sell.

Leon wrote:

Arriving at the glass store that I normally purchase from there is a new
girl working behind the counter. She apparently has been there long enough
to know the jargon but is clueless when it comes to the actual thickness of
glass.
When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use. I
knew 1/8" was too thick and 1/16" breaks too easily. She pulls out two
samples of the glass and I look at their thicknesses and I tell her I want
the 3/32" piece. She says again that the samples are 1/16" and 1/8" thick.
I put the edges of the two pieces side by side and told her that one was
clearly not double the thickness of the other. Yes, the thinner one is much
closer to 3/32". Grabbing four of her 1/16" thick samples and putting into
a stack and three of her 1/8" samples and placing those in a stack beside
the other stack they are of equal height. I looked at her and said, four
1/16" thick pieces of glass stacked should not be the same thickness of
three 1/8" thick pieces of glass stacked together.
She looked at me like I was crazy.

In article 5Megh.11135$Q36.9969@trnddc08, "resrfglc" wrote:
"'No child left behind' test."

Given the implied age and experience of the clerk, it would be difficult to
blame NCLB for her failures.

Indeed, it is likely that NCLB is part of the reaction to similar situations
widely noted throughout retail transactions in America.

Of course, the clerk was like used to serving customers intent on replacing
panes in relatively "standard" applications and whom either quoted the
nominal measurements or simply advised of the application (window pane, six
by nine inches) and accepted what was offered.

My question is, who sells 1/16" glass anyway? That seems awful darn thin.

I thought "standard" was 1/10" -- maybe there was a [sloppily] handwritten tag
over the tenth-inch glass, on which the zero looked like a six...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Leon wrote:

When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use.

I'd go with the 1/8" My glass is 2mm, 3mm or 4mm. I only use 3mm these
days, because I was getting tired of the 2mm breaking. I don't even use
it for picture framing or shadow boxes any more. There's really not
much where you _must_ be under 3mm.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article 5Megh.11135$Q36.9969@trnddc08, "resrfglc" wrote:
snip
My question is, who sells 1/16" glass anyway? That seems awful darn thin.

I thought "standard" was 1/10" -- maybe there was a [sloppily] handwritten tag
over the tenth-inch glass, on which the zero looked like a six...

it's a common thickness for colored glass. it comes in 1/16, 1/8, 1/4,
and 3/4. that thickness of clear glass also often used in small box
lids or very small fish tanks, for example.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

I'd go with the 1/8" My glass is 2mm, 3mm or 4mm.

Score one for the metric system. Maybe the clerk was from Europe where
they have too much sense to deal with fractions - not to mention inches
and feet.

Mitch

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:5Megh.11135$Q36.9969@trnddc08...
"'No child left behind' test."

Given the implied age and experience of the clerk, it would be difficult
to blame NCLB for her failures.

I am not sure that saying yourng was implying the age but she looked 28 ish.
Young to me at 52 but then I was the manager of a tire store when I was 21.
At 28 I was the service sales manager of a large GM dealership in Houston.




Indeed, it is likely that NCLB is part of the reaction to similar
situations widely noted throughout retail transactions in America.

Of course, the clerk was like used to serving customers intent on
replacing panes in relatively "standard" applications and whom either
quoted the nominal measurements or simply advised of the application
(window pane, six by nine inches) and accepted what was offered.

In this case, she asked me what thickness.


I wonderhow many of their customers took out a micrometer before setting
off to replace the pane Jimmy's ball busted?

In my case I use the dial indicator to confirm my suspitions. Visually, it
was obvious the the thinner piece was 3/4 the thickness of the thicker
piece.

"Pop`" wrote in message
news:_bfgh.7244$HX4.2477@trnddc03...

Nah, it's the job requrements and nothing much else. Anything beyond
dollars and cents, as in 1/32" etc. is often beyond their comprehension
simply because they have never had to use it and thus are unconcerned with
it. And, I'm sure any OJT from a customer would be severely frowned upon.
Give 'er a break, I say and if you must impart knowledge to her, do so
clearly, concisely and quickly; she has other customers and things she may
be expected to do.

During the 30 minutes that I was there, there was only one other customer.
She is the first person a customer sees. She does need to know actual
thickness of the product that they sell. None of the glass had sizes on the
pieces, only a part tag sticker indicating style and or thickness perhaps.

"M Berger" wrote in message
...
If she walked into your lumber store and asked for some
1 1/2 by 3 1/2 boards, and you insisted that you only
stocked 2 x 4's, we'd be reading about that in her newsgroup.

The very next thing is to explain to the customer of how sizing worked. I
had basically tapped her for all she was worth. She simply refused to
accept that she was wrong or it was more like the case of She did not know
enough to know that she did not know.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Leon wrote:

When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use.

I'd go with the 1/8" My glass is 2mm, 3mm or 4mm. I only use 3mm these
days, because I was getting tired of the 2mm breaking. I don't even use
it for picture framing or shadow boxes any more. There's really not
much where you _must_ be under 3mm.


1/8" would have caused the moldings to stand proud of the surrounding
surface. These pieces are 5.5" wide and 35" long. 3/32" is plenty thick.
3/32" is what I have always bought in the past and what I had planed for.
Fortunately I got what I went for.

"MB" wrote in message
ups.com...

I'd go with the 1/8" My glass is 2mm, 3mm or 4mm.

Score one for the metric system. Maybe the clerk was from Europe where
they have too much sense to deal with fractions - not to mention inches
and feet.


I'd say metric does make sense for those that are incapable of learning
fractions.

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:4Megh.11134$Q36.7@trnddc08...


But, instead of embarrassing the clerk, why not try and share your
insights with her?

I thought that stacking piles of glass samples next to each other would have
been adequate. If she was embarrased, it saw not me that did it.


We all need to help train the next generation and its clear the "leave it
to the schools" approach isn't working.

Agreed. The store oner should have filled her in.

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...
I am in the process of finishing up a display case for my son. The case
will have glass on the front and sides and have a mirrored back. Because
of the design the glass is installed from the outside of the case. The
rabbets that receive the glass are to receive glass that is 3/32" thick and
a 1/4" radius quarter round.
Arriving at the glass store that I normally purchase from there is a new
girl working behind the counter. She apparently has been there long
enough to know the jargon but is clueless when it comes to the actual
thickness of glass.
When she asked what thickness of glass I wanted, I indicated 3/32". Her
response was, we only sell 1/16" and 1/8" thin glass for cabinet use. I
knew 1/8" was too thick and 1/16" breaks too easily. She pulls out two
samples of the glass and I look at their thicknesses and I tell her I want
the 3/32" piece. She says again that the samples are 1/16" and 1/8"
thick. I put the edges of the two pieces side by side and told her that
one was clearly not double the thickness of the other. Yes, the thinner
one is much closer to 3/32". Grabbing four of her 1/16" thick samples and
putting into a stack and three of her 1/8" samples and placing those in a
stack beside the other stack they are of equal height. I looked at her
and said, four 1/16" thick pieces of glass stacked should not be the same
thickness of three 1/8" thick pieces of glass stacked together.
She looked at me like I was crazy.

When I got home the glass measured out with the dial caliper at 3/32"
thick.

I do believe that she realized that the 1/8" thick piece was not double
the thickness of what she was calling 1/16". I suppose that she did not
understand that 1/16" is half of 1/8" thick. Geez.

Was this just me being like a noob to wood working and being confused with
why a 2 x 4 is not two inches thick? In the past the seasoned employees
behind the counter at the glass company knew what I wanted when I said
3/32" thick.

Anyone working in such an industry should have some clue. I've been in the
exact situation. I don't bother arguing. I ask for a sheet of single
strength glass and get the right thickness.

On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side from the
air side of float glass. This is not well known, but important to businesses
and artists who paint or print on the glass. A glass business should know
this.

Has anyone noticed over the last few years how single strength glass has
gotten thinner? Using my micrometer, I find new glass to be several
thousandths of an inch thinner. It doesn't sound like much but it is
noticeably thinner in handling and has a large effect on strength.
-S

SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Dec 14, 11:44 am, "Pop`" wrote:

That round-off makes sense in a lot of places. If you ask for 12.2' of
something, most people aren't about to convert a decimal to a fractional
inch,


On Dec 14, 10:38 am, "Ron Magen" wrote:


I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'.

10.0
10.1
10.2
10.3
10.4

10.5
10.6
10.7
10.8
10.9
11.0

Do you see anything odd here?
The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.
The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.

When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding
down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray
XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking
billions of dollars.
Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even
numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot),
That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.

IOW 10.2 could be 11?

r

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

Leon wrote:

3/32" is what I have always bought in the past and what I had planed for.

Then plane it a little thinner 8-)

In article . com, "Robatoy" wrote:

10.0
10.1
10.2
10.3
10.4

10.5
10.6
10.7
10.8
10.9
11.0

Do you see anything odd here?

I certainly do -- you should have stopped at 10.9 .

The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.
The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.

But if you had started with 9.9, then you'd have 6 round-ups and 6
round-downs in a series of twelve.

What? You say that's not valid?

It's every bit as valid as including 11.0 in a series that properly should run
from 10.0 to 10.9 .

Examined another way -- if you're going to include 11.0 in a series that
starts with 10.0, then the next set should run from 11.1 (not 11.0) through
11.9, and you see 4 round-downs and 5 round-ups.

When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding
down procedure,

It doesn't.

As an elementary demonstration of your fallacy, consider this series -- and
note that I'm even giving you the erroneous inclusion of 11 at the end:

10.00
10.01
...
10.49 (all rounded down to this point)
10.50 (all rounded up hereafter)
...
10.99
11.00

101 numbers. 50 round down, 51 round up.

Extend it one more decimal point, and the numbers become 1001, 500, 501
respectively. And so on.

what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray
XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation.

Oh, please. Who uses a Cray XP for financial applications?

We're talking
billions of dollars.

No effect -- because it rounds down fifty percent of the time, and up fifty
percent of the time.

Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even
numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot),
That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.

Got a cite for that?

I didn't think so.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

On Dec 15, 11:12 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Do you see anything odd here?

I certainly do -- you should have stopped at 10.9 .

If I'm rounding a number to become 11, then 11 is in the argument.
I am not rounding anything to become 10.9.
If I'm rounding down a number to become 10, it is also in the argument.

Do NOT modify my argument to suit your limited ability to understand
it.

My argument is valid as it stands. Adding decimals won't change
anything.

Now go play with your straw men and red herrings elsewhere.

r

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

Leon wrote:

3/32" is what I have always bought in the past and what I had planed for.

Then plane it a little thinner 8-)

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

On Dec 14, 10:38 am, "Ron Magen" wrote:


I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'.

10.0
10.1
10.2
10.3
10.4

10.5
10.6
10.7
10.8
10.9
11.0

Do you see anything odd here?
The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.
The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.

When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding
down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray
XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking
billions of dollars.
Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even
numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot),
That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.

IOW 10.2 could be 11?

r

On Dec 14, 10:38 am, "Ron Magen" wrote:


I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'.

10.0
10.1
10.2
10.3
10.4

10.5
10.6
10.7
10.8
10.9
11.0

Do you see anything odd here?
The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.
The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.

When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding
down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray
XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking
billions of dollars.
Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even
numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot),
That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.

IOW 10.2 could be 11?

r

On Dec 14, 10:38 am, "Ron Magen" wrote:


I've had people 'round off' a number like '10.2' . . to '11'.

10.0
10.1
10.2
10.3
10.4

10.5
10.6
10.7
10.8
10.9
11.0

Do you see anything odd here?
The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.
The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence
from 10 to 11.

When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding
down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray
XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking
billions of dollars.
Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even
numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot),
That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.

IOW 10.2 could be 11?

r

"charlie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Morris Dovey wrote:
SimonLW (in ) said:

| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin side
| from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
| glass. A glass business should know this.

I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
important?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper
based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.

you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

Charlie described it well. I use a 4 watt gemicidal light in a battery
operated lamp and shine it on a clean sheet in a dark room. The tin side
glows with a very pale pink cast.
-S

I love the way this thread is going . . . but I'm glad I didn't mention
'significant number' !!

However, to clarify . . . the 'round off' incident occurred when I was
getting gas to 're-fill' a rental car before returning it. I asked for 10
gallons. The pump stopped at 10.2. The 'jockey said . . . 'I'll round it off
for you.' Naively, I figured 10.5 gal - a few tenths. Next thing I know it's
11 gallons. At 28 cents a gallon it's one thing . . . at $2.40 it's a
*significant number* !! {$delta = $1.92}. That's 'nearly' $2.oo - and I'd
rather it remained in MY pocket.

The point that initiated this digression to the original thread was that the
clerk {and the 'pump jockey} had *no idea* of the concept involved. Further,
regarding the glass, if you are going to represent a business and take a
person's money for a product or service . . . it behooves you to know that
product or service. Or at least have the smarts & 'intestinal fortitude' to
say, 'I don't know, let me find out' - then go and ASK someone.

No, I'm not an 'old curmudgeon'. It's just that prices have reached a level
that I *want* what I'm paying for - and don't feel *I* should have to
compromise or accept incompetence.

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{Or maybe it's being married to a Medical Research Chemist-Study
Coordinator, Physical Chemist/Thermodynamisist by training for 33+ years.
I've GOT to be aware at ALL times !!}
"Robatoy" wrote in message
ps.com...


On Dec 15, 11:12 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Do you see anything odd here?

I certainly do -- you should have stopped at 10.9 .

If I'm rounding a number to become 11, then 11 is in the argument.
I am not rounding anything to become 10.9.
If I'm rounding down a number to become 10, it is also in the argument.

Do NOT modify my argument to suit your limited ability to understand
it.

My argument is valid as it stands. Adding decimals won't change
anything.

Now go play with your straw men and red herrings elsewhere.

r

charlie (in )
said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| SimonLW (in ) said:
||
||| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin
||| side from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
||| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
||| glass. A glass business should know this.
||
|| I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
|| important?
|
| glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
| different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are
| copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly
| brown.

Interesting. Usually I'm trying to /not/ paint glass - but this is
good information to have filed away. Next time I'm near my local glass
shop I'll stop in and ask for a demo.

| you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
| side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
| filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

Now this info opens up some really interesting possibilities. Does the
tin show up brightly; and is it purely a surface deposit (IOW, will it
rub/scrub off)?

I think I'd rather go with the UV or water bead tests than lick
something without knowing where it's been or who might have licked it
before me... :-P

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Got a cite for that?

I didn't think so.

What he described is knowns as "banker's" rounding. That is not proof
that bankers actually use it though. The naming might just be a
coincidence ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding

MItch

Morris Dovey wrote:
charlie (in )
said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| SimonLW (in ) said:
||
||| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin
||| side from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but
||| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the
||| glass. A glass business should know this.
||
|| I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
|| important?
|
| glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
| different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are
| copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly
| brown.

Interesting. Usually I'm trying to /not/ paint glass - but this is
good information to have filed away. Next time I'm near my local glass
shop I'll stop in and ask for a demo.

you're misunderstanding. these are glass paints that are fired onto
(and becoming one with) the glass in a range of 1000-1400F. think
church stained glass windows with faces fired onto them. latex/oil
paint has no affect with the tin layer.

typical window glass shops, i would expect, would not know of this. a
decorative glass store (stained, fused, structural, etc) would.

| you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin
| side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal
| filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.

Now this info opens up some really interesting possibilities. Does the
tin show up brightly; and is it purely a surface deposit (IOW, will it
rub/scrub off)?

float glass is made by floating molten glass onto a bed of molten tin
in an oxygen-free atmosphere. the tin layer has to be blasted off to
remove it. btw: there is tin layer in old fashioned plate glass, but
hardly anyone makes that anymore.

it's not that bright, but can be seen pretty clearly in the dark.
germicidal uv lights are not common, nor are they generally healthy to
have around and be looking into a lot. they typically come with a lot
of warnings and a purple glass shield which has to be removed to get
the correct uv light out of them to show the glowing.

I think I'd rather go with the UV or water bead tests than lick
something without knowing where it's been or who might have licked it
before me... :-P

the beading is very subtly different. you can also wash it before
licking....

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

charlie wrote:
snip
float glass is made by floating molten glass onto a bed of molten tin
in an oxygen-free atmosphere. the tin layer has to be blasted off to
remove it. btw: there is tin layer in old fashioned plate glass, but
hardly anyone makes that anymore.

that should read: there is NO tin layer...

it's not that bright, but can be seen pretty clearly in the dark.
germicidal uv lights are not common, nor are they generally healthy to
have around and be looking into a lot. they typically come with a lot
of warnings and a purple glass shield which has to be removed to get
the correct uv light out of them to show the glowing.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

charlie (in )
said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| charlie (in )
|| said:
||
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||| SimonLW (in ) said:
||||
||||| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin
||||| side from the air side of float glass. This is not well known,
||||| but important to businesses and artists who paint or print on
||||| the glass. A glass business should know this.
||||
|||| I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it
|||| important?
|||
||| glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving
||| different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are
||| copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly
||| brown.
||
|| Interesting. Usually I'm trying to /not/ paint glass - but this is
|| good information to have filed away. Next time I'm near my local
|| glass shop I'll stop in and ask for a demo.
|
| you're misunderstanding. these are glass paints that are fired onto
| (and becoming one with) the glass in a range of 1000-1400F. think
| church stained glass windows with faces fired onto them. latex/oil
| paint has no affect with the tin layer.

Aha! Ok - now I understand a bit better. Thanks.

| typical window glass shops, i would expect, would not know of this.
| a decorative glass store (stained, fused, structural, etc) would.

Gotcha. The shop I visit when I'm buying glass might - they do a fair
volume of special order business and seem fairly savvy. They're also
patient when I walk in and ask a lot of ignoramus-type questions. I
have the distinct impression that they /like/ glass. I like its
utility; but they seem to like the stuff itself.

||| you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the
||| tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you
||| have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
||
|| Now this info opens up some really interesting possibilities. Does
|| the tin show up brightly; and is it purely a surface deposit (IOW,
|| will it rub/scrub off)?
|
| float glass is made by floating molten glass onto a bed of molten
| tin in an oxygen-free atmosphere. the tin layer has to be blasted
| off to remove it. btw: there is tin layer in old fashioned plate
| glass, but hardly anyone makes that anymore.
|
| it's not that bright, but can be seen pretty clearly in the dark.
| germicidal uv lights are not common, nor are they generally healthy
| to have around and be looking into a lot. they typically come with
| a lot of warnings and a purple glass shield which has to be removed
| to get the correct uv light out of them to show the glowing.

Understood. I've seen these things; and have some friends that use
them (or something very like) for special effect signage with shields
so that the tubes can't be seen directly.

|| I think I'd rather go with the UV or water bead tests than lick
|| something without knowing where it's been or who might have licked
|| it before me... :-P
|
| the beading is very subtly different. you can also wash it before
| licking....

Yup. Still...

Thank you, Charley (and Simon). Like a lot of other people, I've been
fascinated with what can be done with light and glass and color. It
has a way of catching and holding the eye much the same way as does
fireworks - except that it's much more lasting.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto