I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much work
into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color and
grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain. It
looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it out,
found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so much
better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the plug;
otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with some
filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

Maybe your wife just has low standards.

(That was a joke...)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Toller wrote:
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much work
into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color and
grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain. It
looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it out,
found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so much
better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the plug;
otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with some
filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

If your wife has the good sense to ignore flaws in your work, and
presumably you, there is little benefit in pointing them out insisting
she see them.

Other than that - if you're good, you're always your worst critic.
That is as it should be.

R

I made a dresser (first one), and wouldn't youknow, I drilled the two
screw holes for the top center drawer pull with the drawer upside down.
That meant that when properly located the pull, there were two visible
holes right above it. I found a couple of interesting glass beads and
mounted them in the holes, and my wife thinks they're a nice decorative
addition.



Whew!



RicodJour wrote:
Toller wrote:
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much work
into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color and
grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain. It
looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it out,
found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so much
better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the plug;
otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with some
filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

If your wife has the good sense to ignore flaws in your work, and
presumably you, there is little benefit in pointing them out insisting
she see them.

Other than that - if you're good, you're always your worst critic.
That is as it should be.

R

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much
work into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color
and grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain.
It looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it
out, found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so
much better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the
plug; otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with
some filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

Soon you will forget. I built my first kitchen 17 years ago and use 35mm
Euro hinges on the doors. On the end cabinet next to the garage door near
the floor I drilled the 35mm hole on the front of the cabinet door for the
hinge before realizing that I was drilling on the wrong side. You can see
the hinge if you look through the hole in the door. Yes the hole is still
there and yes I had gotten about it, until now.

"Leon" wrote in
om:

Soon you will forget. I built my first kitchen 17 years ago and use
35mm Euro hinges on the doors. On the end cabinet next to the garage
door near the floor I drilled the 35mm hole on the front of the
cabinet door for the hinge before realizing that I was drilling on the
wrong side. You can see the hinge if you look through the hole in the
door. Yes the hole is still there and yes I had gotten about it,
until now.


Rockler used to sell these plug kits for folks who did the same things when
mounting Euro hinges. Not cheap, when you consider the price for a couple
of tapered rounds of hardwood, in various flavors. But cheaper than
redoing a door.

Not that _I_ ever used these. Well, only one. In maple. Doesn't show too
badly. Ought to redo that door.

Patriarch

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Toller"
wrote:

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

Maybe your wife just has low standards.

You've been talking to her?

"Toller" wrote in message

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

I can't be of much help as I've never had an error in my woodworking. I've
often altered the original plans a bit though.

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.


I'm in love with your wife. When she's had enuff of your mistakes,
she can come here and ignore mine.

Pete

"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 136...



Rockler used to sell these plug kits for folks who did the same things
when
mounting Euro hinges. Not cheap, when you consider the price for a couple
of tapered rounds of hardwood, in various flavors. But cheaper than
redoing a door.

Not that _I_ ever used these. Well, only one. In maple. Doesn't show
too
badly. Ought to redo that door.


If I ever sell my house, I planned on doing that about 15 years ago, I'll
just caulk the hole and paint over it. :~)
Swingman are you reading this?

"Toller" wrote

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.


Didn't you get the memo about confessing imaginary sins to your wife?
Luckily, she had the good sense to ignore you.

Remember, in the future, it ain't a mistake. It is a design feature.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:09:57 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much
work into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color
and grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain.
It looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it
out, found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so
much better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the
plug; otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with
some filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

Soon you will forget...........

Boy I wish. Seems like I remember every flaw in every piece I've ever
done, and believe me there are plenty to remember. But when I show
other folks, they never see them.

At least I've quit pointing them out and just take the compliments
when they come. I think people who view your work just see the big
picture and since they were not with you fretting over the mistakes
and how to recover from them, they don't see them.

Frank

Not long ago, I had a customer call me for a bookcase. They said that they
had purchased a TV stand from me years ago and love it. When I went to
their house for the bookcase estimate, I saw my TV stand. It was one of the
first ones I made when I was starting out about 5 years ago. My god, what a
mess! I wanted to take it and replace it with a new one free of charge.
The finish was horrible, the proportions were off, the stain was uneven.
Back then, I guess it was the best I could do. The customer is telling me
how great it is.............. wait till they get the bookcase!

Rick
--
Rick Nagy
Johnstown, PA

- Remove nospam to email me
Be sure to check out my website at http://www.rickscabinetshop.com


"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much
work into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color
and grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain.
It looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it
out, found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so
much better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the
plug; otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with
some filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

"Leon" wrote in message

If I ever sell my house, I planned on doing that about 15 years ago, I'll
just caulk the hole and paint over it. :~)
Swingman are you reading this?

Hey, that's what the trim carpenters of today do ... let the painters take
care of it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:01:18 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much work
into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color and
grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain. It
looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it out,
found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so much
better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the plug;
otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with some
filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.



It is time for you to embrace the concept of "The Persian Flaw".



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:00:51 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Hey, that's what the trim carpenters of today do ... let the painters take
care of it.

The painters around here have a hard time painting walls much less
finishing wood. I wouldn't count on the painters to do their job
correctly much less fix anything!

Mike O.

Tom Watson wrote in
:



It is time for you to embrace the concept of "The Persian Flaw".



Regards,

Tom Watson

Tom, do you mind giving a short description of what a "Persian Flaw" is?
I haven't heard the term before, and some Google searching left me with
only a vague idea.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Puckdropper" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Tom Watson wrote in
:



It is time for you to embrace the concept of "The Persian Flaw".



Regards,

Tom Watson

Tom, do you mind giving a short description of what a "Persian Flaw" is?
I haven't heard the term before, and some Google searching left me with
only a vague idea.

Rugs are always made with an "error" because only God is perfect.
A bit silly, since even the absolutely best rug is bound to have a slightly
crooked stitch. Because, of course, only God IS perfect.
(Just as my absolutely best work has (multiple) slight imperfections.)

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:36:35 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Why do so many woodworkers feel the need to point out the smallest
flaws?

I did a big custom bookshelf for my wife for her birthday last year,
everythin was perfect, but when I cut the rabbet for the back, I cut
it a little larger than I should have and the back didn't fit like I
wanted. I could have redone the back, but I was out of time, so I
just tacked it into place and nobody would ever know since the piece
is attached to the wall.

But every time I look at that bookshelf, I know the back isn't how it
should be. It doesn't really bug me, but we do see our mistakes
forever. Almost a year later, I still wish I could have done it
better at the time.

"Mike O." wrote in message
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:00:51 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Hey, that's what the trim carpenters of today do ... let the painters
take
care of it.

The painters around here have a hard time painting walls much less
finishing wood. I wouldn't count on the painters to do their job
correctly much less fix anything!

The point is/was, that shoddy work is ubiquitous these days in the carpenter
realm, mainly due to an unskilled and poorly supervised labor force.
Depending upon locale, if the house you live in was built in the last 20
years, chances are the carpentry is "adequate" at best.

An example: A trim carpenter should be able to cope a joint ... I'll give
you a dollar for every one you can find that can, or even knows what/why, if
you'll give me a dime for those that can't/won't ... I'd get rich down here
on the Third Coast.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
An example: A trim carpenter should be able to cope a joint ... I'll give
you a dollar for every one you can find that can, or even knows what/why, if
you'll give me a dime for those that can't/won't ... I'd get rich down here
on the Third Coast.

I won't take that bet. BTDT. I'm on jobsite, coping an inside corner. Crew
boss comes by... "What are you doing?" I tell him. He says "just miter it -
faster and it fits better". Wellllll... his miter saw probably *is* faster...
but my corners fit together a lot better than his.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:36:35 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Why do so many woodworkers feel the need to point out the smallest
flaws?

I did a big custom bookshelf for my wife for her birthday last year,
everythin was perfect, but when I cut the rabbet for the back, I cut
it a little larger than I should have and the back didn't fit like I
wanted. I could have redone the back, but I was out of time, so I
just tacked it into place and nobody would ever know since the piece
is attached to the wall.

But every time I look at that bookshelf, I know the back isn't how it
should be. It doesn't really bug me, but we do see our mistakes
forever. Almost a year later, I still wish I could have done it
better at the time.

I did a beautiful cabinet, but when I oiled it the cherry plywood panel in
the door it showed a weird pattern. I lived with it for a year and then
routed the back out and replaced the plywood. Now it is gorgeous. Okay,
the fact that the inside of the door is imperfect bugs me, but I did a good
job and anyone (but me of course) would think that it was just how I built
it.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 06:20:55 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


"Mike O." wrote in message
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:00:51 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Hey, that's what the trim carpenters of today do ... let the painters
take
care of it.

The painters around here have a hard time painting walls much less
finishing wood. I wouldn't count on the painters to do their job
correctly much less fix anything!

The point is/was, that shoddy work is ubiquitous these days in the carpenter
realm, mainly due to an unskilled and poorly supervised labor force.
Depending upon locale, if the house you live in was built in the last 20
years, chances are the carpentry is "adequate" at best.

An example: A trim carpenter should be able to cope a joint ... I'll give
you a dollar for every one you can find that can, or even knows what/why, if
you'll give me a dime for those that can't/won't ... I'd get rich down here
on the Third Coast.


I set up my miter saw station to trim out a Habitat house last year,
got out my coping saw, and the HH lead carpenter said "we don't
usually go to that kind of trouble", I replied, "you're in luck.
Won't cost one dime more for me to do it right, but it will make me
feel much better".

But I will say most of the finish carpenters working for the better
homebuilders in this area do cope inside corners.

Frank

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 13:44:01 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

But why do so many feel the need to SHOW it to everyone?

No clue, I never pointed it out to my wife, she has no idea and
wouldn't care anyhow. I know, but I'm not going to be showing it to
anyone else, especially since it's completely invisible without
ripping it off the wall.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 06:20:55 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

The painters around here have a hard time painting walls much less
finishing wood. I wouldn't count on the painters to do their job
correctly much less fix anything!

The point is/was, that shoddy work is ubiquitous these days in the carpenter
realm, mainly due to an unskilled and poorly supervised labor force.
Depending upon locale, if the house you live in was built in the last 20
years, chances are the carpentry is "adequate" at best.

I think I got your point Swingman, but having been a finish carpenter
for well over 25 years (and still doing it daily) I may have taken it
a little personally that I (as a trim carpenter) might count on a
painter to "take care of it". Your generalities may be your
experience but the exceptions do exist.
BTW my home was built in the last 10 years and I'll put the quality of
the trim work up against any anywhere.

An example: A trim carpenter should be able to cope a joint ... I'll give
you a dollar for every one you can find that can

Please send my dollar.....make that two because my partner knows how
to cope too. He's been doing this longer than I have and we both
were taught by his Dad and Uncle (both gone now) who had been doing it
for 30 years before that. I think that qualifies us for the "old
school" of finish carpentry.

, or even knows what/why, if
you'll give me a dime for those that can't/won't ... I'd get rich down here
on the Third Coast.

I'd suggest that the quality of a trim job has more to do with the
builder and what he's willing to pay for. A lot of builders don't
know what a good trim job looks like until they actually get one. If
a builder demands quality (and will pay for it) he can find it quite
easily. I'll give you a dollar for every builder you find that wants
to pay to have his base coped. It costs more to do it right and many
builders just look at the price points. It might be cheaper and
easier to find an "adequate" trim crew but if you demand better than
that, we're out there.
We have always been busy through the good times and the slow times. I
believe that to be a testament to the quality of our product. We're
not the cheapest in this area, but we don't try to be. I've seen the
poor trim jobs (they are quite common) and those carpenters last about
as long as the builders they work for. I've seen a lot of both come
and go over the years and we're still here making sawdust.

Mike O.

Toller wrote:

"Puckdropper" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Tom Watson wrote in
:



It is time for you to embrace the concept of "The Persian Flaw".



Regards,

Tom Watson

Tom, do you mind giving a short description of what a "Persian Flaw" is?
I haven't heard the term before, and some Google searching left me with
only a vague idea.

Rugs are always made with an "error" because only God is perfect.
A bit silly, since even the absolutely best rug is bound to have a slightly
crooked stitch. Because, of course, only God IS perfect.
(Just as my absolutely best work has (multiple) slight imperfections.)

I'm trying really hard to stay away from showing my flaws. Maybe 1 in 50
notices something and asks, if you assume some are too polite to say anything
then maybe 1 in 10 or 20 notices.

And I haven't yet met a god who is perfect (not even "God").

ron

I think the answer is simple: those who are reasonably proficient at
something hold themselves to higher standards. The higher standards
are the way you WANT to be able to do whatever it is. Those with no
aptitude or ability have lower standards and they think that even your
"flaw-ridden" effort is better than anything they could ever do so they
don't even register what you think are imperfections.

FoggyTown

Last night we were shopping for a couch. I stopped by the chairs to see how
they were made. They all had the arms attached to the backs with screws,
with a big button filling the hole. For some reason some of the finish had
chipped off the buttons, and they looked like crap. This was on all the
chairs, and they weren't cheap.

I showed it to my wife who replied, "yeah?"

I wonder why they all had finish chipped off the buttons.
I wonder why people buy chairs that look like crap.


"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am making (still...) a set of dining room chairs. I put a biscuit slot
on the wrong face, right where it will be most visible. I had too much
work into it to start over, so I found a piece of scrap with the same color
and grain, and cut a plug. Fortunately the slot is parallel to the grain.
It looked pretty good, but the work has prominent rays and the plug just
doesn't match. I though the plug was too small to matter, but it did.

I showed it to my wife and asked her what she thought. About what? The
repaired damage. Where? There. Oh, I never would have noticed that.

Well, I stared at it for a while and decided it was hideous. Ripped it
out, found a piece of scrap with the same color, grain AND rays. Looks so
much better. There is just a tiny black line at the top and bottom of the
plug; otherwise invisible. I thought maybe I could get rid of them with
some filler, or maybe I would make it worse?

So I go back to my wife. She tells me to leave it alone because she can't
see what I am pointing at; but reminds me that she couldn't see the first
one either.

Every now and then someone posts, asking if we view our own work too
critically. Apparently.

On Nov 12, 6:14 am, "FoggyTown" wrote:
I think the answer is simple: those who are reasonably proficient at
something hold themselves to higher standards. The higher standards
are the way you WANT to be able to do whatever it is. Those with no
aptitude or ability have lower standards and they think that even your
"flaw-ridden" effort is better than anything they could ever do so they
don't even register what you think are imperfections.


Most customers won't pay for obsessional behaviour. The trick is to
find a balance between speed and accuracy. I constantly remind myself
that I am not making a watch or a piano. I also believe that what goes
out there with my name on it, should be able to be put on display
anywhere. If that piece includes an expert repair, so be it. Chances
are nobody, but the most anal, will see that repair. And the anal are
never satisfied. Do not waste your time trying to please those
tofu-sucking granola crunching asshats with the magnifying glasses. I'm
not for them. I could be, but those types won't pay.

The equalizer for me, is that I always ask myself: "would I pay $
xxxx.xx for 'this piece?" If it doesn't pass that bar, it ain't leaving
the shop.

You can tell a craftsman by the way he covers his mistakes...just ask
Eric Clapton. (*and 100 guys like him*)

r

Look around. It's not only chairs. Crap sells. There is lots of stuff on the
market now, that sells just fine, that would have never made it fifty years
ago. Introduce crappier and crappier products slowly over a long period of
time and Joe average consumer never notices. It's called social
conditioning.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
Last night we were shopping for a couch. I stopped by the chairs to see
how
they were made. They all had the arms attached to the backs with screws,
with a big button filling the hole. For some reason some of the finish
had
chipped off the buttons, and they looked like crap. This was on all the
chairs, and they weren't cheap.

I showed it to my wife who replied, "yeah?"

I wonder why they all had finish chipped off the buttons.
I wonder why people buy chairs that look like crap.