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#1
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
Greetings:
I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs on the table / fence flatness tolerances. Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine? (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.) Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old, always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination squa Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was machined a bit more than the rest of the table. Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the middle. Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001" difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after adjustment is now within 0.001". Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015" near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends). What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be complaining? Thanks in advance, LKB in Houston |
#2
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
"LKB" wrote in message oups.com... Greetings: I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs on the table / fence flatness tolerances. Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine? (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.) Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old, always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination squa Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was machined a bit more than the rest of the table. Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the middle. Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001" difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after adjustment is now within 0.001". Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015" near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends). What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be complaining? Oh yeah; my jointer is accurate to 0.00000012", and that is pretty marginal. Take it back immediately and demand a proper one. (are you using it to make integrated circuits?) |
#3
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any
discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question, what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway? -- Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work. Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland lwasserm(@)charm(.)net |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
Do you have the feeling you have said things before? It just means he's twice as mad. Pete |
#5
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
He must have thought he was talking to someone else in here about a jointer
wrote in message ... Do you have the feeling you have said things before? It just means he's twice as mad. Pete |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
wrote in message ... I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question, what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway? -- Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work. Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland lwasserm(@)charm(.)net It's he http://www.axminster.co.uk/find.asp |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
Larry wrote:
I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question, what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway? Thanks for the reply. You can find information on Rojek machines at: http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php As you'll see, they're currently running a "free shipping" sale on the 310 J/P combination. Another similar machine to consider is the Hammer A3-31. This is made by the same folks who make Felder machines. It's more expensive than the Rojek, but has a few more bells and whistles (like digital readout on the planer). Not cheap but still less than comparable machines from Minimax and Knapp. From what I've seen so far, the Rojek machine is a beast. Everything is extremely heavy duty (the machine itself is about 800 lbs), and the Tersa head makes knife changing ridiculously easy (under 1 minute, with no subsequent adjustment necessary). Infeed table height control is a parallelogram design, and thus fine-tuning the alignment of the infeed table with the outfeed table requires just a socket wrench -- no shims required. Fit and finish are excellent; runs quietly and with minimal vibration. Gonna run some stock though it today and we'll see how it passes the real world test. LKB |
#8
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
A.M. Wood wrote: After all, you did use the $23.50 Veritas straightedge. Those are machined flat to 0.003" over the length. Actually, I used the $42 steel one, not the cheaper aluminum one you mention. As I noted in my message, it is machined flat to 0.001" over its length. You can see the difference between the two he http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=50074 LKB |
#9
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
B A R R Y wrote: I was reading the .pdf for your machine and have a question. Is EACH jointer table 50" long, or is the total jointing surface (infeed + outfeed) 50"? Total jointing surface is 50". If you need longer tables, they have table extensions available as an option. If you have any other questions about the machine, feel free to write. LKB |
#10
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
"LKB" wrote in message oups.com... Snip What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be complaining? Thanks in advance, LKB in Houston With any machine, you should be happy with the price you paid for it. From there, does it produce acceptable results? If not, complain. If so, enjoy your purchase. Your technique may have more to do with accuracy than the tolerances of the tool. |
#11
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
I like that $7000 multi device table saw that they sell. A saw, shaper,
planer, jointer, and bottle opener all in one.... LKB wrote: Larry wrote: Thanks for the reply. You can find information on Rojek machines at: http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php LKB |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
LKB wrote:
What does the collective wisdom think? I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge" is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about temperatures when you used it. I wouldn't worry about 5 thou flatness in a machine table and I certainly wouldn't expect to receive that, unless I'd paid the money for someone to season their castings for a year before machining them. If you care, set up a DTI on a long cantilever from one table to the other and then try loading some timber on one end. Machining accuracy means nothing when the deflection under load is far more than this. I certainly wouldn't expect any better than 1/4" alignment or parallelism between separate parts, until I'd actually set the machine up. "Set up" isn't just ripping the box off it, there really is work to do here. It begins with a stable foundation for the machine, then setting the base to be flat and level, and only then starting to look at the components and tables. This sort of machine is _heavy_, the tables must not only be machined flat when supported, then have to maintain this when sticking out under their own weight. Adjustments like slideways become crucial here - owing to the lever effect of the geometry, a tiny amount of movement against a gib strip gets magnified out at the end of a table. Flat enough or should I be complaining? Plenty flat enough. Enjoy it. Don't sweat the small stuff. |
#13
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
Thanks for the reply. You raise an interesting side issue:
I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge" is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about temperatures when you used it. I've always stored it by hanging it on a peg through the hole (i.e., it hangs straight down) in a tool cabinet in my climate-controlled shop. It's stored in such a fashion that nothing can bump into it, etc., and every time it comes out, it gets a quick wipe of Boshield before it goes back on the peg. From what I've been told, that should be OK. Still, I know it doesn't take much to screw up a precision straightedge, and although when I received it it was packed pretty carefully, there's no way to know whether it was dropped, etc., in shipping. Ergo, the question: is there an easy / inexpensive way (or place to go) to check whether such a reference is still accurate? LKB |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
"LKB" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks for the reply. You raise an interesting side issue: I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge" is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about temperatures when you used it. I've always stored it by hanging it on a peg through the hole (i.e., it hangs straight down) in a tool cabinet in my climate-controlled shop. It's stored in such a fashion that nothing can bump into it, etc., and every time it comes out, it gets a quick wipe of Boshield before it goes back on the peg. From what I've been told, that should be OK. Still, I know it doesn't take much to screw up a precision straightedge, and although when I received it it was packed pretty carefully, there's no way to know whether it was dropped, etc., in shipping. Ergo, the question: is there an easy / inexpensive way (or place to go) to check whether such a reference is still accurate? LKB Hanging the straightedge is fine. Dropping it may have a negative effect. I have several straightedge's two from Lee Valley. I have a local machine shop that tested the flatness when I purchased the 50" aluminum one from LV. It was within 0.001" over it length. The machine shop has a 72" granite flat table that they say is within 0.0005" over its length. The point is, even 0.005" +2 is dead flat when working with wood. Dave Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
#15
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How much flatness is OK on a jointer?
LKB wrote: Ergo, the question: is there an easy / inexpensive way (or place to go) to check whether such a reference is still accurate? Have three of them and check them against each other, same as for surface plates (only easier to do). Don't use only two, or you might have matching curves! |
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