I got my first plane a couple months ago. A Groz #5 bench plane[1]
from Woodcraft. I figured this was a good item to learn with and
could get me started. I also got a granite slab for sharpening and
proceeded to tune it up the best I could. After some work using
the Scary Sharp method[2] and flattening the bottom/bed/sole, frog
and cutting iron I think I got it working pretty well.

To learn to use it, I was mostly just running it over the edges of
scrap. As I would do this, I would notice after maybe 5-10 passes
that the edge of the work would no longer be square to the face.
It would now be angled to the right a few degrees. I'm right handed
and would stand to the left of the board, clamped in a vise with
the edge up. Initially I thought this was just a matter of me not
having the right technique and perhaps putting too much pressure
on the plane in the wrong way.

As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole
of the plane did not appear to be square. I don't know if it was
like this when I first bought it, or I managed to get it out of
square when I was flattening it. Whatever the case, I think I've
figured out why 5-10 passes of the plane are causing the edges of
my wood go out of square.

I'd like to fix this plane if I could, but given that it was only
$45 to begin with, I'm not interested in spending more than about
$20-$25 to do so. The thought occured to me that a machine shop
might be able to square this up on a mill, but they'd probably want
more than I'd be willing to spend to have them do it.

The next thought I had was to find some kind of replacement
bottom/bed/sole. I found Bob Kaune's site[3] online and it looks
like he might have what I need with the bed and frog from a used
Bailey No. 5 Plane[4] for $25.95.

Some questions:

o) Would I be able to transfer the bulk of the parts from my #5
Groz to this Bailey #5 bottom/bed/sole?

o) Has anyone dealt with this vendor before? What was your
experience (good, bad, ok)?

o) Any other places for parts you'd recommend? NOTE: I'm not
interested in eBay--I just want to buy the part(s) I need, not dick
around bidding on stuff.

Thanks!


[1]: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5276
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scary_sharp
[3]: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/
[4]: I can't point you directly to the information, if you go to this
URL http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanley_parts.htm and then
search for "Bailey No.5 Plane" it should take you to the specific bit
I'm talking about. There's also a picture of what's being sold at
this URL: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/5plbed_frog.jpg

Doesn't "appear" to be square to what? The only thing that I can tell for
sure from your post is that it DEFINATLY wasn't square to your board when
you were planing, which is the only thing that matters. Yes, your first
thought was right. It's technique. Tilting right is classic for a right
hander. The plane doesn't know what is square, that's up to you. One other
thing you might check that would make the problem worse, but not be the
whole cause, is how evenly the plane cuts from side to side. Try planing a
board that is wider than the plane. Adjust the lateral adjuster until it is
cutting evenly across the full width.

"Bob Moos" wrote in message
...
I got my first plane a couple months ago. A Groz #5 bench plane[1]
from Woodcraft. I figured this was a good item to learn with and
could get me started. I also got a granite slab for sharpening and
proceeded to tune it up the best I could. After some work using
the Scary Sharp method[2] and flattening the bottom/bed/sole, frog
and cutting iron I think I got it working pretty well.

To learn to use it, I was mostly just running it over the edges of
scrap. As I would do this, I would notice after maybe 5-10 passes
that the edge of the work would no longer be square to the face.
It would now be angled to the right a few degrees. I'm right handed
and would stand to the left of the board, clamped in a vise with
the edge up. Initially I thought this was just a matter of me not
having the right technique and perhaps putting too much pressure
on the plane in the wrong way.

As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole
of the plane did not appear to be square. I don't know if it was
like this when I first bought it, or I managed to get it out of
square when I was flattening it. Whatever the case, I think I've
figured out why 5-10 passes of the plane are causing the edges of
my wood go out of square.

I'd like to fix this plane if I could, but given that it was only
$45 to begin with, I'm not interested in spending more than about
$20-$25 to do so. The thought occured to me that a machine shop
might be able to square this up on a mill, but they'd probably want
more than I'd be willing to spend to have them do it.

The next thought I had was to find some kind of replacement
bottom/bed/sole. I found Bob Kaune's site[3] online and it looks
like he might have what I need with the bed and frog from a used
Bailey No. 5 Plane[4] for $25.95.

Some questions:

o) Would I be able to transfer the bulk of the parts from my #5
Groz to this Bailey #5 bottom/bed/sole?

o) Has anyone dealt with this vendor before? What was your
experience (good, bad, ok)?

o) Any other places for parts you'd recommend? NOTE: I'm not
interested in eBay--I just want to buy the part(s) I need, not dick
around bidding on stuff.

Thanks!


[1]: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5276
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scary_sharp
[3]: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/
[4]: I can't point you directly to the information, if you go to this
URL http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanley_parts.htm and then
search for "Bailey No.5 Plane" it should take you to the specific bit
I'm talking about. There's also a picture of what's being sold at
this URL: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/5plbed_frog.jpg

Bob, the chances are pretty good that it's not the plane that's causing the
problem.

It's not easy to keep a hand plane square to the board unless the surface is
wide. You have to work on your stance and the movements of your arms, and it
takes a while to start getting the results you're after. There are a couple
of mechanical things you can use to help out, but nothing does the job like
lots of practice, coupled with a lot of thought about your stance and
approach to the piece you're working on.

Stanley used to make a plane attachment called a "jointer gauge" that you
could use to keep the plane sole square to the piece (or actually at any
angle you wanted). You can often buy them used from the antique tool venders
(Bob Kaune often has one on his web site), but I don't know if it would fit
your Groz. Lee Valley makes one that would work on just about any plane, and
is held on by strong magnets. It isn't adjustable for angle - only helps you
plane square edges.

If you're using a block plane, you can just take a small block of wood
that's square, and hold it with one hand under the sole on one side,
pressing the side of the block up against the side of the piece you're
planing. A little hard to describe, and difficult to do with a full-size
plane because both hands are engaged already, but if you saw a drawing it
would be obvious. Look around for a book on hand planes and you might see
that technique illustrated.

I don't think I'd spend a lot of money on your Groz. Like you said, it's a
starter plane. Use it to develop your technique and to help you decide on
what sizes of planes you're likely to want in your toolbox. Later on, you
might like to buy some old Stanleys from the old tool vendors, or you might
like the new planes from Lee Valley, or (be still, my heart) some of
Lie-Nielson's lovely pieces.

But above all, practice, practice, practice.

Tom Dacon


"Bob Moos" wrote in message
...
I got my first plane a couple months ago. A Groz #5 bench plane[1]
from Woodcraft. I figured this was a good item to learn with and
could get me started. I also got a granite slab for sharpening and
proceeded to tune it up the best I could. After some work using
the Scary Sharp method[2] and flattening the bottom/bed/sole, frog
and cutting iron I think I got it working pretty well.

To learn to use it, I was mostly just running it over the edges of
scrap. As I would do this, I would notice after maybe 5-10 passes
that the edge of the work would no longer be square to the face.
It would now be angled to the right a few degrees. I'm right handed
and would stand to the left of the board, clamped in a vise with
the edge up. Initially I thought this was just a matter of me not
having the right technique and perhaps putting too much pressure
on the plane in the wrong way.

As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole
of the plane did not appear to be square. I don't know if it was
like this when I first bought it, or I managed to get it out of
square when I was flattening it. Whatever the case, I think I've
figured out why 5-10 passes of the plane are causing the edges of
my wood go out of square.

I'd like to fix this plane if I could, but given that it was only
$45 to begin with, I'm not interested in spending more than about
$20-$25 to do so. The thought occured to me that a machine shop
might be able to square this up on a mill, but they'd probably want
more than I'd be willing to spend to have them do it.

The next thought I had was to find some kind of replacement
bottom/bed/sole. I found Bob Kaune's site[3] online and it looks
like he might have what I need with the bed and frog from a used
Bailey No. 5 Plane[4] for $25.95.

Some questions:

o) Would I be able to transfer the bulk of the parts from my #5
Groz to this Bailey #5 bottom/bed/sole?

o) Has anyone dealt with this vendor before? What was your
experience (good, bad, ok)?

o) Any other places for parts you'd recommend? NOTE: I'm not
interested in eBay--I just want to buy the part(s) I need, not dick
around bidding on stuff.

Thanks!


[1]: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5276
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scary_sharp
[3]: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/
[4]: I can't point you directly to the information, if you go to this
URL http://www.antique-used-tools.com/stanley_parts.htm and then
search for "Bailey No.5 Plane" it should take you to the specific bit
I'm talking about. There's also a picture of what's being sold at
this URL: http://www.antique-used-tools.com/5plbed_frog.jpg

"Bob Moos" wrote in message
...
I got my first plane a couple months ago. ...
... I was mostly just running it over the edges of
scrap. As I would do this, I would notice after maybe 5-10 passes
that the edge of the work would no longer be square to the face.
[...]

That's normal.

You need to deliberately plane the wood square. If you just blindly move the
plane backwards and forwards it doesn'r do it.

Tim W

In article ,
Bob Moos wrote:
...snipped...
As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole
of the plane did not appear to be square. I don't know if it was
like this when I first bought it, or I managed to get it out of
square when I was flattening it. Whatever the case, I think I've
figured out why 5-10 passes of the plane are causing the edges of
my wood go out of square.
...snipped...

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that you flattened the
bottom of the plane but it's not square. If the sole is resonably
flat, but not square to the sides of the plane, it would still be easy
enough to plane a square edge. Lots of planes are slightly out of
square in this respect but can be used to plane a good edge or face
of a board.

When you look at the bottom of the plane, is the edge of the blade
parallel with the sole of the plane? This can be adjusted with the
lateral lever.

IME technique and frequent checking are the most important parts of
planing a square edge. If you check frequently as you plane the edge,
and adjust as required, you can get a good straight and square edge,
with minimal wood removal. It does take a little practice but it's not
really that hard to master edge jointing with a plane.

One thing (I believe I saw it recommended in Garret Hack's Plane
book) that helps me: sharpen your blade so it is slightly convex. As
you are planing and checking the edge for square, you will be able to
make corrections by shifting the plane so that most of the cutting
takes place towards the side of the blade that is angled in the
direction you need to compensate.

As far as parts interchanging, while many planes are copies of Stanley
designs, even Stanley used more than one frog and bed design over the
years for their Bailey planes, plus the Bedrocks are totally different
there as well. (Although the current/most recent Bailey frog design is by
far the most common)

My advice would be to try the Groz some more (I'm not familiar with
that brand so I can't comment on quality) or just buy a used Stanley
Bailey. Jacks and #4s are extremely common, you shouldn't have to pay
more than $20-25 or so to get a good one; it will require tuning but
so do most new ones.

--
Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwasserm(@)charm(.)net

There's no indication (yet) that anything is wrong with the plane. When you say
"bottom/bed/sole of the plane did not appear to be square" - what do you mean?
1) The blade does not protrude evenly from the mouth of the plane? Just adjust
the blade...
2) The sole of the plane is not square to the one or both sides? This is typical
of inexpensive planes, and only matters if you are using a "shooting board".
3) The sole of the plane is twisted/warped - i.e. not flat? Then your parts
question is relevant...
4) Something else???
--
JeffB
remove no.spam. to email

JeffB wrote:

There's no indication (yet) that anything is wrong with the plane.
When you say "bottom/bed/sole of the plane did not appear to be
square" - what do you mean?

1) The blade does not protrude evenly from the mouth of the plane?
Just adjust the blade...

That looks good, to me.

2) The sole of the plane is not square to the one or both sides? This
is typical of inexpensive planes, and only matters if you are using a
"shooting board".

This is what I thought was going on. I put an angle finder/protractor[1]
against the left side and bottom, and then the right side and bottom.
In both cases it said 90 degrees. Now the angle finder/protractor I
was using may not be the most accurate out there, but it was enough to
convince me that what I was seeing (described below) was not actually
related to the squareness of the bottom and sides.

3) The sole of the plane is twisted/warped - i.e. not flat? Then your parts
question is relevant...

I don't think so.

4) Something else???

What I think had me going was the way the sole was cast. I tried to
take a picture of this, but I couldn't get a decent enough shot to
show exactly what's what. So I'll try to describe it. Imagine the
plane is sitting right side up on a table top. The back of the plane
is near the edge of the table top, such that you can squat down and
look at it eye level. At the very back of the sole, the casting is
angled a little bit such that the left side is higher and thicker than
the right.

At any rate, with all the other tips people have posted, it sounds
like my problem is in fact technique and not necessarily hardware.

Thanks!

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-...7?ie=UTF8&s=hi

CW wrote:
Yes, your first thought was right. It's technique. Tilting right is
classic for a right hander. The plane doesn't know what is square,
that's up to you. One other thing you might check that would make the
problem worse, but not be the whole cause, is how evenly the plane
cuts from side to side. Try planing a board that is wider than the
plane. Adjust the lateral adjuster until it is cutting evenly across
the full width.

Thanks. I'll give this a try and see if I need to make adjustments.

Tom Dacon wrote:

Bob, the chances are pretty good that it's not the plane that's
causing the problem.

I believe that to be the case now . . .

It's not easy to keep a hand plane square to the board unless the
surface is wide. You have to work on your stance and the movements of
your arms, and it takes a while to start getting the results you're
after. There are a couple of mechanical things you can use to help
out, but nothing does the job like lots of practice, coupled with a
lot of thought about your stance and approach to the piece you're
working on.

I have been working on that. I sight down the edge after a couple of
passes, periodically flip the board around (when the grain permits),
concentrate on where my hands are, how I'm standing etc. As you say,
"nothing does the job like lots of practice." Fortunately, I have
lots of scraps to play with.

Stanley used to make a plane attachment called a "jointer gauge" that
you could use to keep the plane sole square to the piece (or actually
at any angle you wanted). You can often buy them used from the antique
tool venders (Bob Kaune often has one on his web site), but I don't
know if it would fit your Groz. Lee Valley makes one that would work
on just about any plane, and is held on by strong magnets. It isn't
adjustable for angle - only helps you plane square edges.

I believe I know which device[1] you speak of. That sounds like it
might be a good suggestion for me.

If you're using a block plane, you can just take a small block of
wood that's square, and hold it with one hand under the sole on one
side, pressing the side of the block up against the side of the piece
you're planing. A little hard to describe, and difficult to do with a
full-size plane because both hands are engaged already, but if you saw
a drawing it would be obvious. Look around for a book on hand planes
and you might see that technique illustrated.

I believe I get the gist of what you're saying. I'll have to give
this a try.

I also have a small block plane. I can't recall it's "number" but
it's 7" made by Buck Brothers, purchased at Home Depot. Oddly
enough, when I've used this plane to surface the edges of stuff, I
haven't really had a problem with the edge/face going out of square.
This is one of the reasons why I had originally thought there was
something wrong with my #5 Groz.

I don't think I'd spend a lot of money on your Groz. Like you said,
it's a starter plane. Use it to develop your technique and to help you
decide on what sizes of planes you're likely to want in your toolbox.
Later on, you might like to buy some old Stanleys from the old tool
vendors, or you might like the new planes from Lee Valley, or (be
still, my heart) some of Lie-Nielson's lovely pieces.

When I first started looking at planes, the stuff I looked at was
from Lee Valley and Lie-Nielson. And I thought to myself, "If they
all cost that much, I'll just stick to power tools." So when I
discovered that there were less expensive planes out there I could
start out with, I decided to try the Groz and see what happens. I
have actually used my #5 Groz to do some real work and if I only
need to take one or two passes against the edge, I've been using
it as it really leaves a wonderfully smooth surface. I think my next
plane will be one of those inexpensive Buck Brothers smoothing planes
(I believe it's a #4 bench plane) that goes for about $25.

But above all, practice, practice, practice.

Thanks. I'll be doing that!

[1]: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...16&cat=1,41182

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 10:49:18 -0700, "Tom Dacon"
wrote:

Bob, the chances are pretty good that it's not the plane that's causing the
problem.

Snip

If you're using a block plane, you can just take a small block of wood
that's square, and hold it with one hand under the sole on one side,
pressing the side of the block up against the side of the piece you're
planing. A little hard to describe, and difficult to do with a full-size
plane because both hands are engaged already, but if you saw a drawing it
would be obvious. Look around for a book on hand planes and you might see
that technique illustrated.

Another helpful technique I like is setting two boards of the same
width side-by-side to plane the edges of each at the same time. It's
not only good for supporting the sole and helping to keep the edges
square to the face, but it also means that even if things get a little
out of square, the error will be mirrored on each piece, and the joint
should still mate properly when one piece is flipped end-to-end (at
least that's the case when jointing to make a panel)

Snip

Bob Moos wrote:

I got my first plane a couple months ago. A Groz #5 bench plane

Why ignore all the regularly posted advice here to buy an eBay pre-war
#4 / #5 for peanuts?

If you have a Groz, Kunz or Anant there's just no point in doing
anything to it. Although it's _possible, it's certainly not cost
effective.

Technique, practice, and frequent measuring are required to freehand really
square edges. Examples of other things that also may help...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48945
or assuming the sole is square to the bottom...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...16&cat=1,41182
or a jointer.

The basic design of a plane is for flattening/smoothing a surface...
--
JeffB
remove no.spam. to email